Decision making w/ BPD spouse (please share your experience)

[RolandOfEld]

Does anyone else struggle making important life decisions with a spouse / partner with BPD? Looking back since my wife has admitted to herself and me that she has BPD I now see how many decisions were made in response to her rages rather than based on what my family genuinely needs. I'll use the current situation as an example.

(Noting that my wife is making very active strides to control her BPD and I'm very proud of her. But of course this will take a lot of time and we still have serious problems on hand that are effecting our family future and that of our two young children in particular).

As of a few weeks ago my wife said she was no longer able to take care of our two children at home anymore (she suddenly decided to pull our 4 tear old son out of his daycare because she was unhappy with the quality). But having two difficult children at home of course increased her pressure tenfold. After constantly demanding me to solve the problem, she finally said I should move out into an apartment with my son near where I work so she could heal. After a lot of thinking and a few more incidents, I told her I would support her if this is what she needs.

But the problem is I've never been able to truly assess what she needs. I don't know if the demands are coming from a real place or are just temporary responses / threats to a stressful situation. I've spend countless hours and money on making hotel / apartment deposits over the years, cancelling plans and plane tickets, wasted a lot of innocent realtors' time finding a separate place to live, only to have her call me and tell me to come back before I've been gone more than a day, or a few hours.

Since she is now committed to overcoming her BPD, I wonder if the space might actually help her. But part of me thinks her being without us would make everything worse. It may also be very painful for our children. It would also be a huge financial hit to maintain two apartments / lifestyles on my one salary. I just don't know what to do and the pressure of trying to decide is killing me. 

I'm not asking for help making a decision. Rather, as someone new to this world, I would very much like to hear from other's experience responding to demands from BPD partners. I've already said I would do this and I know its bad to go back on something you've said to someone with BPD. I know she's looking for a way out and when she triggers she wants me to solve everything. But I don't want to take another huge step in the name of her illness rather than her genuine needs and regret it.

Thank you.

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

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[pearlsw]

Does anyone else struggle making important life decisions with a spouse / partner with BPD? Looking back since my wife has admitted to herself and me that she has BPD I now see how many decisions were made in response to her rages... .I would very much like to hear from other's experience responding to demands from BPD partners. I've already said I would do this and I know its bad to go back on something you've said to someone with BPD. I know she's looking for a way out and when she triggers she wants me to solve everything. But I don't want to take another huge step in the name of her illness rather than her genuine needs and regret it.

Well, yes I can relate! For about 6.5 years my husband couldn't decide if he really wanted this relationship or not - pretty major life decision to leave in limbo for so long. That push/pull left me living in two worlds. It has damaged me a lot, but I am recovering. After 5 years I was a total wreck over it. I could never tell if I should be planning to leave or stay and I couldn't live like that. It was sheer hell. It got better when I chose to have one single reality - just live as if we were together despite all he said and did and let me tell ya... .he filled out divorce papers and demanded/threatened/insisted I sign them - more than once. I knew it was not real. Basically nothing he says while angry is real. But it is damn scary. What is your wife like when she is not dysregulating? What are her desires then?

Overall though, I want to heal from this and make my life better. I could tell horror stories as the day is long, but I can't change the past so I don't want to dwell there. It will only make me resentful and bitter and I'm not gonna do that to myself. Just being more mindful of his emotions and being much more careful with how I speak to an emotionally sensitive person helps.

[RolandOfEld]

Thank you so much for sharing pearlsw. I can relate very strongly to the feeling of being in limbo and not knowing which way to go. And I have on many occasions run outside to buy divorce papers that eventually went unsigned. Like you said it's not real but scary all the same. Scarier for our children to watch, so I am praying every day that it gets better by the time they are old enough to understand what's going on.

When she's not dysregulating she's quite practical, says she knows she needs to take responsibility for her own choices and not complain. She's extremely rational and makes plans with me and we follow them for a while and then something happens and before I know it we're talking about divorce or separation or me moving out with the kids. Then she calms down and it mostly goes unmentioned. But this time the demand seems to be hovering between reality and dysregulation. I'm still looking at housing options but trying not to bring it up too actively since she hasn't mentioned it in a few days.

I think you are very strong to assert your own reality when he is in his. I am new to the world of BPD so I still get pulled into the tornado from time to time.

[pearlsw]

Hi thegoodsoldier,

I hear ya, before and when I first came to this site the storms were hitting fast and overwhelming me entirely. After reading here I had a way to deal with things that seems to be helping. There are a lot of issues involved - better understanding the other person, being willing to change yourself, and having tools to handle daily life.

I don't know if you have seen the post at the top of this board that says "Success Stories" but it is a good long post to read that shows how people can sometimes better place with these issues. Let us know what you think!

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=113820.0

[RolandOfEld]

Thank you, pearlsw! I've read some already and these stories give hope, which is what we need above all else.

[isilme]

Oh boy. Decision making. 

Yes, I second that choices/demands made while in full on dysregulation are about as credible as a toddler holding their breath to get their way.  And yes, it's damned scary when it's happening.  If the demand is "I need ketchup to eat dinner" I find it easier to just run to a corner store and get some.  If it's "move out", I refuse.  It's all based on scale, potential damage to the family unit, and how much is the irrational anger talking and how much is the person we actually relate to?  I try to respect the anger to not make it worse, but also ignore the anger to not internalize the hurtful comments or the irrational requests and decisions. 

Just like I'd not listen to H is he were three sheets to the wind drunk (he's almost never drunk at all) making a serious decision, I'd also not take seriously any demands or life decisions when he's in the throes of a BPD storm.  He is not really "in his right mind" when he is acting like this, either in the full-on rage or in some pre-rage projection or post rage shame reaction. 

Also, while I know it works for some, I think living separately is NOT going to do much to allow your W to learn to cope with life.  It allows her too simple a way to run away and pretend things are all your fault.  So I'd kinda take that off the table unless YOU want to separate.  Or, insist she finds a way to pay for it out of her own, non-family, bank account,  If she does not have one, the family should not be on tap to fund her delusions of persecution or grandeur.  So a boundary could be, no more hotels, apartments, separate space, unless it's what YOU want.  If she really wants it, she should be the one arranging and paying for it. 

Another note - is she painting your son as black in regards to the children?  You mention she wanted you to move out with the son... .I am guessing that means you have a daughter as well?  How are the relationships with the children? 

[defogging]

I can relate to decision making problems with my wife as well, and want to say that finding this forum has really helped in just knowing I'm not the only one going through this!

I'll try to condense as much as possible.  We moved into our current house in 2014, it was a move we had discussed for years and we were both very happy with the new house.  In 2015 our oldest started kindergarten and had a little trouble adjusting to it.  She had been at home with mom or grandma for the most part until kindergarten.  We got an email from the teacher one day about a behavioral issue which I deemed as minor (she hid from the teacher when class was going to recess).  W hit the roof about it.  W basically went into attack mode on the school, demanded they place our daughter in the gifted program and that the teacher wasn't skilled enough to teach our daughter.  She chased down the gifted program director and the principal, and was eventually told that we should probably find a different school to attend.  I was blindsided by all this as her BPD behavior was just starting to show itself.

So, we found a different school (and district) which is about 20 minutes away from home but very close to where we work.  We initially thought we might have to move to switch districts but we didn't which I thought was good.  Ever since we switched schools W has insisted that we move into the immediate neighborhood by the new school.  The neighborhood has older and smaller homes which would be a real stretch to fit our family of 5 into.  I'm not against moving to be closer but it should be a joint decision with give and take.  W will not entertain any other possibilities than this one neighborhood.  She has gone so far as to threaten me with divorce if I didn't agree to buy a house that she had picked out on her own.  She has told me multiple lies about why we need to move, having to do with enrollment of our other children and whether or not they can stay in this district once they enter junior high and high school.  I have debunked all her reasons by speaking with the district enrollment office myself and finding out that what W told me isn't the case.

This has become a stalemate issue in our house.  We can't discuss moving at all as the conversation starts spinning into circular arguments about why it has to be this neighborhood.  Then I get accused of holding her hostage in our current house, it's all about my needs, I'm selfish, etc.  Frankly, I don't trust her not to blow up on the current school and force another move in the future, so I'm not going to chase her tantrums with moving expenses which aren't cheap.

Now that I've discovered BPD traits and how she fits a lot of those, I think I know what happened.  Something went wrong at school (child wasn't performing perfectly), W blamed others rather than having a rational reaction to it, W painted the school district black and along with that painted our house and neighborhood black.  She has since stopped being friends with anyone in our neighborhood and seems to hate everything about living there.  I was so confused about it all before, but it fits what I've read about BPD.

W had been in charge of educational issues for the kids until this incident.  I have a more open view on education as long as we stay in one of the good districts in our area, so I was initially okay with her sorting through the fine details.  Now I've had to get involved with it and I make sure to attend all conferences with her and be in the middle of any decisions that get made so we don't have another blow up.  If anything starts to go sideways I will have to speak with school on my own and make sure they are contacting me first if W makes any demands.

So, sorry for the long story but that's my biggest story right now, there are plenty of others.  We seem to have all kinds of trouble making decisions on money and family matters and I'm learning that I just need to start making the best decisions I can and involve her only when necessary.  Your situation sounds tougher than mine and I'm sorry I can't offer advice, I'm at the beginning of the learning curve right now.

[RolandOfEld]

Thank you isilme, your experience gives me more to work with. The challenge for me now is still determining when she is dysregulating and when she's just being angry because I did act like a jerk (I do sometimes) or is sad about something genuinely negative in her life. Sometimes its obvious and sometimes its not, and I don't want to throw everything instantly into the dysregulation bin and be derelict in my duties as a husband. I can't control her emotions but I do have some control over the environment I give to her.

The problem as she sees it is (maybe when dysregulating, maybe also when not) is that she's can't stand taking of our two little children and that the depression of being out of the work force for 3 years is killing her. She suddenly pulled our 4 year old son out of preschool recently (will explain that more in next reply) so now she has to face two. She knows she has BPD and needs treatment, but she thinks she needs the time and space of having at least one child out of the house. My son is the harder one with a host of behavioral and emotional problems, which my wife once acknowledged probably in large part come from her BPD.

I have expressed many times that if she found a job that could support us I would take paternity leave until our youngest was preschool age. I have taken two paternity leaves before so she knows this is true. The problem is her field is next to government work in her country, where we live, and opportunities are very limited and only appear at set times during the year. She is not willing to take a different kind of job until more opportunities appear next spring and I have supported her on this. We have tried every preschool within reasonable distance of our apartment and she can't accept any. So the only option on the table now is for me to move into a small flat with my son near my office, which has some potentially better schooling options. I've already (stupidly) expressed my strong willingness to consider this plan so would be hard to back out now if she pushes for it.   

When she is not dysregulating she is an awesome mom / wife - she takes them out to the city, cooks a big healthy dinner for us, keeps the house clean, teaches my son, even finds patience to respond to dual tantrums with empathy. When she dysregulates she is sometimes violent to both kids, screams and argues with them, and once even got drunk enough to pass out while taking care of them. I desperately want to protect them from that kind of environment but if I stop working we have no income whatsoever. I have already put my job at risk by running home suddenly on multiple occasions due to suicide threats or other behavior. It often seems like an impossible decision.

[RolandOfEld]

Hi defogging, our situations are so similar and its a big help to hear I'm not alone. Like you said, sometimes we just have to try and make the best decisions for our families that we can with the info on hand. It's likely that no matter what we choose, they will find something wrong and blame us for being selfish. Like isilme described in her reply, I try to accommodate on the "ketchup demands" and now I'm trying to set boundaries on the "solve my life problems in 1 hour" demands.

For my situation, you can see my previous reply to isilme for the deeper background. My son has changed preschool multiple times this year, usually because of some dissatisfaction on my wife's part. The last one he liked the best and was quite happy, but even I had to admit the quality was quite poor and it had some negative influences on him. If it gave my wife more room to breathe, though, I was content to let him keep going.

Then one afternoon I got a call from my wife in full dysregulation mode saying the teacher had been rude to her when she asked questions and she'd had enough and wanted to pull him out. I wasn't so aware of her BPD yet then and asked if we discuss first, said that I was tired of her making sudden decisions and her telling me rather than including me in the conversation. From there it evolved to not just leaving the school but that she wanted to sue the teacher. She said it was for putting our son's pics on the school's public FB page without asking us, but I knew that was just a way to get revenge on someone rude to her. She demanded I call and tell the school we would sue the teacher. I did, and it was one of the most miserable experiences of my life, threatening a young teacher who just graduated and didn't know anything yet. My wife hasn't brought up the case in a while but if she does I will tell her I won't get involved.

She doesn't want two kids at home but she can't accept any preschools near us. Hence the possibility of him moving with me to near my office, which has some potentially decent ones. Though I suspect she would have a problem before too long.    

[isilme]

I'm a bit torn here - as an only child survivor of 2 BPD parents, this pretty well describes my life when I was small:

When she is not dysregulating she is an awesome mom/wife - she takes them out to the city, cooks a big healthy dinner for us, keeps the house clean, teaches my son, even finds patience to respond to dual tantrums with empathy. When she dysregulates she is sometimes violent to both kids, screams and argues with them, and once even got drunk enough to pass out while taking care of them

I came home from school once and found Mom faceplanted in the yard.  She had gotten it in her head to wait for me in her bathroom and had probably taken too many pills again.  By about age 7, I was more her caretaker than she was mine, and was learning to cook, do laundry and other chores I could do with a tiny body and a step stool.  By age 10, any issues with her were my fault as far as Dad saw, as a failure of me to control my mother.  By 15, he tried to kill her by strangulation, I stepped in and stopped it, and then he and I (it was crazy, I still can't explain getting in the car) drove 18 hours to his parents' house and they were done. 

So, with that in mind, I'd say reducing the level of stress and drama at home will benefit you AND the children overall... .but I worry it's just a stop-gap, and another crazy demand will come about once the "new" has worn off of your acquiescing to this one. 

I think she needs to have all options laid out, some people have luck using DEARMAN.  All of the  options for your family I kinda see are:
1 - Divorce, custody battle - just end it and move on, get the kids, but I don't think you want to go here.  It's messy, and permanent in one direction - this is the last course of action should things degenerate to be horrible for everyone.
2 - Separate with the child custody split for a while - you get the apartment, take the son, see how long this works before the next crisis.  I fear this will not make her learn coping skills, and actually is a bit enabling.
3 - everyone stays, she learns to cope with 2 kids at home AND depression with some help - even if she does not get BPD help, there are lots of ways to work on depression without seeking therapy per say, like St Johns Wort to assist in mood, getting exercise, improving family nutrition. 
3.1 - Maybe see if a part time nanny/sitter can come in, not all day every day, but on mommy-rest days.  I have a friend who gets stressed with her kids around all day.  She is a stay at home mom, not always in great health, who sometimes works out of her home.  So she has a daycare day for the kids so she can get things done on certain days.  It's only a few mornings here and there, but it helps.
4 - she finds a job, and you swap who is home until the kids are old enough for a full school day.
5 - she finds a job, and you find a child care alternative to you staying home. 

[defogging]

So many parallels here, it's interesting.  

My W has done some of the same things, constantly changing daycare providers after some perceived slight is something I've experienced.  I remember about a year ago she kept coming at me with something that had to change with one of the kids.  It was driving me nuts and I finally told her she needed to stop switching everything around every two months.  Life is hard enough with three kids and two working parents, we needed to find a situation that works and stick with it.  If life isn't perfect for everyone all the time then it's all wrong, at least it seems that's the way her mind works.

Making quick decisions without ever consulting me is another experience we are sharing.  That has been a huge issue with us.  For a lot of our marriage I've been in a state of frustration because I can only react to whatever decision she makes and never get a say in it.  She has gotten a little better about it, but now I deal with her guilt trips on that.  She acts like I am an oppressive husband.  She will shyly ask if she has permission to go to the park with the kids as if I'm the one that would blow up on her for making a simple choice like that.  I've noticed she tends to do that only in front of other people to make me look bad.  Seems like a great manipulation tactic.  I can't tell you how many times I've tried to explain the difference that most things I'm easy going about and she should just do it, but big life decisions like finances, moving, switching schools need to be discussed.  This has always felt like a control tactic to me.  Keep me on my heels and in reaction mode.  

Your story about W wanting to sue the teacher seems like something that easily could have happened in our house, while I was in the same mode as you and just discovering her behavior.  Just like my story about switching schools, I would have done a lot of things differently had I been more aware at the time and we'd probably still be at the same school.  Your last sentence in that paragraph is a great idea in my opinion.  Now, as these kinds of things come up I push them back on my wife and say something like "this is your decision and I'm not in agreement, if you want to move forward with it then you need to take care of it".  This has diffused a lot of crazy issues she has tried to drag me into.  With my W, her public image is very important to her (perfect employee, perfect mom, etc) so if I can turn the tables a little bit and make her responsible for her own actions it's like she realizes that she's going to look crazy and backs off on it.  

I like your take on deciding which issues to help out with, and which to leave up to them.  It's like the old adage of "pick your battles" which applies to any relationship, but BPD brings it to a whole new level.  Finding that balance isn't easy but hopefully I can get better at it over time.  Right now the biggest thing for me is anything that will impact the kids, I feel at times I need to protect them from her decision making so they have stability in life.  If she is doing something that will adversely impact them I have no problem stepping in the middle and risking a big fight, but then again sometimes W has better intuition than I do and I need to go along with what she is saying.  Very hard to tell the difference sometimes.

One last thought I have is I REALLY hope things get better as the kids get older.  I mean, in terms of me being the only one seeing the real situation at home.  Right now the kids are too young to have strong opinions on anything and mom is the superstar as long as she gives them ice cream and sweets.  Once they get more independent I hope that helps things out a little, but I also have concern there will be more conflict between them and mom when they start challenging her.

And I apologize I don't have much advice as I'm a newbie to this, but hopefully just comparing stories can help us both out a little.  Best of luck on this.

[Tired_Dad]

The parallels to my situation are very strong with you.

My spouse, though formally undiagnosed, exhibits strong BPD behaviors and is enrolled in DBT therapy to treat her behaviors. What strikes me similar is my spouses desire to run, and how I used to plead with her and work so hard to convince her to stay only to have her drift further. I have found that once you stop chasing, and work on a partnership that she is capable of coming closer.

When we had our separation she was the one who left and part of it was from a "rule" that we agreed to before we got married. That if you are angry, you cannot try to make the other sleep on the couch or leave the house, that you need to deal with your own anger and if you need space then you can choose for yourself to sleep on the couch or to leave. I recognized early on that she had a tendency to push, and got her to agree to this and it is probably the only agreement that we made that has held up over the years.

I have also made sure that when she wanted our child to switch schools that she had to do all of the primary research as I was satisfied with the previous school. I was not going to be pulled into it other than to stay informed and to partner with the final decision as if she researched it and choose it, then she would have to own it and that would make it difficult for the decision to be projected onto me if she decided later that it was bad.

My wife also has been out of work due to issues, possibly from TBI from a car accident and from falling in the shower (and several more apparently before I met her) and has frequent headaches and difficulty with her depression even getting out of bed. The issue I am confronting is that this has put money front and center with her feelings of self worth and that combined with growing up "poor" makes her reluctant to go to treatment because it may incur out of pocket expenses... .yet if she accepted proper treatment she would feel better and be able to work and the treatment would in effect pay for itself.

Bottom line, since I have been rambling, is that whether it is deciding on what is for supper or if she should move out to if she should go to the mall it seems that every decision is a challenge and everything is impossible and I can understand the situation that you are in and hope that you can find a way to stop trying to rescue her and to find a way to take care of yourself and your children in spite of her "needing" to be rescued.

[RolandOfEld]

isilme thank you for sharing your story. I can't imagine everything you went through. I am beginning to strongly believe my mother was BPD but I didn't experience anything like you did. 2 BPD parents! My father was just extremely insecure and passive but was at least emotionally stable.

Thank you also for the advice. I think you offer some very practical courses to go and I will probably propose them to her. When I offer solutions such as the below she always finds something wrong and I acquiesce (I didn't like the nanny you interviewed, its too expensive, I don't like him riding the school bus, I'm not comfortable having someone in our house). I suppose its my personality to always believe I'm wrong and she's right. Now I'm starting to know better. If I put clearly on the table what I can realistically do and she can't choose one, then she needs to take responsibility, not just go back to how its my fault for not taking more paternity leave 3 years ago. I think the true part of her knows this and most conversations are had with the dysregulating part.

[RolandOfEld]

Hi defogging, just sharing your parallel stories is a big help and I hope it is likewise for you since we're both new to this world.

I think the lesson again is to "pick our battles" and do our best to know when we might actually be wrong. I was originally considering saying no to my wife if she asked me to buy her alcohol (like your wife she finds things like this embarrassing so she asks me to do it), but the fact is she would just buy it on her own anyway so why cause a huge explosion in front of my kids. The suing thing is different, however. I don't think its right and I need to stand by my feelings and let her do it on her own (if she still wants to).   

[RolandOfEld]

Hi Tired_Dad, yes it sounds like we are in a very similar boat. My wife wants to go back to work but there are some big realities in terms of that being hard. Positions for her field have dropped significantly just in the few years since she took leave in her country, so those few that remain make it extremely hard to get a position even though she's made it very close in the runnings a few times. But maybe there's more to it than that. She blames me for selfishly not taking a longer paternity leave with our first which "forced" her to quit her job (just as I "forced her" to get married, "forced" her to visit my home country with me last year instead of go on the trip she wanted, and pretty much "forced" everything else). I'm astonished at how powerful a person I must be to have forced her into doing so many things when usually its me acquiescing to every single demand she has. I have a very poor memory but I remember her being very unhappy at that job and we were also very strongly considering to move back to my country at that time.

Sorry, a lot of this is ranting about details that are of no help to you, but this is the first time I've said any of these feelings anywhere but in my head. I've been living the last three years (perhaps whole life) in chains made of guilt and its not good for anyone. I hope some shared experience is valuable to you in terms of being the one who has to save everyone.

[Tired_Dad]

I think the lesson again is to "pick our battles" and do our best to know when we might actually be wrong. I was originally considering saying no to my wife if she asked me to buy her alcohol (like your wife she finds things like this embarrassing so she asks me to do it), but the fact is she would just buy it on her own anyway so why cause a huge explosion in front of my kids. The suing thing is different, however. I don't think its right and I need to stand by my feelings and let her do it on her own (if she still wants to).   

There is a pattern in my relationship that I have sought to break and I have started to move to the point of asking myself "is this a reasonable request?" when asked to get or do something that may result in an explosion. One way I do it is consider the request as if one of my friends asked me to do it, or if I had a roommate if they made the request. If it's not something that I would consider compromising my values under those conditions I will automatically do it as I would with any other person.

I have also put strong limits on rescuing. If it is a crisis of her own creation that is only causing her distress then I will assist her in fixing it, but will not swoop in as the white knight anymore. If it is truly something out of her wheelhouse (car trouble, mechanical issues in the house, etc) then I will address it in the importance that it is within our household and not elevate it's importance solely to avoid triggering her. I have found that setting these limits, though hard at first, really helped me take care of myself and my son better and it made her have to deal with her own emotions that were flooding through her.

Bottom line is that my impulse to be a protector, provider, and rescuer needs to be suppressed or it will spiral out of control and not amount of rescuing will help her balance her emotions.

Take all of this with a grain of salt of course. I have already been consulting with a lawyer and I am preparing for a separation / divorce that I will most likely have to initiate as though I am committed to the marriage, she cannot make a decision as to if she is or not and I will most likely have to make that one for her which is unfortunate as I anticipate that it will lead to extreme conflict.

[RolandOfEld]

Hi isilme. I took your advice and put some practical solutions on the table last night. I started by mentioning I would like to take a morning off to bring them to see the area and schools near my company. My wife immediately replied we couldn't afford it, which is when I pointed out that she would need to take on a part time job if we moved there and put our two kids into preschool. This triggered her immediately, and she rejected every rational point I made, as I expected she would, called me retarded, like my family, once again blamed everything on me for not taking a longer paternity leave 3 years ago. But I persisted, calmly pointing that I understood that was how she felt, but focusing on it did nothing to solve her problems. I said I would still arrange for us to visit the preschools. She said it would be better if the three of us moved out. I said I didn't have enough money to pay for two apartments and preschool and she said she would use her savings. We left it with me asking her to consider my suggestion to see the schools (she said she didn't have to) and I would consider hers. Silent treatment since.

But I believe I did the right thing, putting a little responsibility on her and finally saying what I couldn't do. I felt empowered and confident for the first time. I think much worse than not taking the paternity leave is to have enabled her all these years; every time she wanted to pull our son out of a preschool or reject any job opportunities that didn't fit exactly what she wanted to do I went along completely. If she can not except any of the alternative, imperfect solutions, then I will consider moving the three of us out, but she would have to support herself financially. And like you said isilme this doesn't seem like it would help anything, only delay progress.

I feel partly bad doing all this since it seems like she is making an effort and has admitted her problem. But I feel daily inaction is not helping anything and I needed to give some alternatives. I hope that if I'm persistent the ideas will seep down into her rational mind and she will think about it. Does anyone has any experience of trying this to share?

[defogging]

I think what you did is a great idea, good job of expecting something from her and setting boundaries on what you can do.  Just keep reminding yourself that it takes two to make a partnership work.

I've tried the same thing, usually with the exact same result of her getting triggered and having it deteriorate into a circular argument with her blaming me for random things in the past.  It's happened in the past where my W has come around.  It usually happens by her announcing a great idea a couple weeks later as if she came up with it on her own, when she is really announcing one of the suggestions I had made.  Perhaps let it rest for awhile and see if she comes back to you with any different ideas (that were actually yours in the first place).

One of our T's suggested awhile back that we just stop arguing when things are going nowhere, one of us can say "we're spinning out, let's take a break" and the other has to respect it.  (It's me saying that 99% of the time, she only says it when I suggest something logical that she can't argue with)  I've found this helps calm things down in the moment, but my frustration is we never resolve anything and our lives are at a standstill.  It's working for me somewhat, as W is the one who wants to change everything so I guess what do I care if we don't discuss it.  We don't really need to change anything, it's just W's perceived crises that are happening.

[isilme]

It's great that you put it on her to make some of the choices and face the consequences of them.  I know that is not easy.  In many cases, I ahd to learn to let H "fail" rather than enable him as mcuh, for him to come around.  But we do not have children, so we can more easily have him fail at certain tasks if that's what it takes. 

One thing that has helped me through periods like this is to take what I can get from H that he offers, and expect little or nothing as far as making life work.  That sounds bleak, but let me explain a bit more.

I know he has emotional problems.  I do too, and lucky for him, mine compliment his with my co-dependency.  But, I recognize he cannot always commit fully to being a full-on responsible adult at all times.  When pushed beyond his limits, he might revert to teenage avoidance and procrastinate and miss deadlines, or worse, he will revert to being a toddler who thinks stamping his feet will change reality. 

I essentially do the majority of "adulting" as far as working full time, feeding us on time, making sure bills are paid, birthdays remembered, holidays taken care of, house maintained, yard maintained, cars maintained.  It's a lot, and I have to do triage at times - dishes can wait if a car needs an oil change or I am sick.  He goes to work, and perseveres and does well at his job, and tries to not be an emotional wreck at home, wallowing in depression.  He tries as far as his ability range lets him, and has expanded that range over time.  And when I see him trying, even if his end result may not match my end result, I appreciate his effort and tell him so. 

I live as if any moment I can be left holding the bag, to prevent that from being a huge shock.  And I accept any help he can offer, even if it's not much more than a snuggle on the couch. 

I see so many on here trying to protect their kids and their homes and keep the family together, I feel bad - because essentially, you all have to live like you are a single parent with a sometimes adult in the house, too.  If our spouses/SOs had some sort of visible disability, like my brother in law at this time is terribly injured and cannot walk, it's can still be exhausting, but you and others would easily SEE the reason you need to take on that extra load.  But with BPD and other mental illnesses and emotional dysregulations, they can be just fine in the morning, and a terror by night, and fine again the next day. 

WE have to provide the rational decision making and the consistency.  Consistency and final decisions seem to help - once you take "maybes" off the table, things sometimes settle down because the imagined possibilities are now gone, and with them the emotions, good and bad, thinking about those possiblities. 

Your wife needs to know the reality she is facing.  She needs to let it "percolate" in her head, and see that you are not waffling, you are stable in your statements.  Your feelings about a move today are the same they will be tomorrow, and the next day.  Her stamping her feet won't change them.  When we stop reacting in the way they learned gets results, sometimes they change how they react.

[RolandOfEld]

Hi isilme and all, the situation degenerated very quickly over the weekend.

A brief oasis of rational discussion about our future and some halloween celebrations with the kids was the one bright spot amid more threats to prevent me from going to work, cursing my mother and grandmother's corpses, and continued assertions of how I had ruined her life and we should separate and she's moving out. All with the kids screaming and fighting and losing their minds in the background. Those poor children. I almost hope that she does move out, but she rarely makes good on threats. I can't take it anymore. I hurt myself for the first time in a long time last night. I have a problem too, see, and it seems to be loving people with BPD (I am now very sure my mother was, too). The people I love the most hurt me in horrible ways. I need therapy to find out why I allow it and allowed my children to be hit. I was hopeful for her getting therapy but it seems all it did was enable her. Mid-dysregulation she sent me a message from the therapist telling her to put herself first and the tone was she wouldn't be seeing the therapist again any time soon. I'm guessing she didn't even talk about the BPD.   

On the practical side, I'm preparing for the worst. I'm secretly moving what little money of my own I have from my home country to here (she has control of all money here), gathering evidence of her illness from recent chats, and plan to get in touch with a lawyer today. Originally I hoped we could negotiate that I would take another short paternity leave next year for her to prepare for the annual tests for her field with the condition she and I would both independently seek regular counseling to give our children a healthier home environment. But I've lost most hope of that option. I can't take it anymore. I can't talk absorbing hate from someone I know is sick and can't hear anything I say. Even though I still love the rational her. And I can't stand breaking up the family. I'm at the lowest point I've ever been in my life. 

[isilme]

I hurt myself for the first time in a long time last night.

Please try to not hurt yourself.  I DO know that sometimes imposing physical pain can distract for a bit form the emotional pain, but it's not a good thing to allow yourself to indulge in, and hard to dial back from. 

I am so sorry.  She sounds like she is ramping up a bit, and might be approaching an extinction burst as a response to your trying to set some boundaries about the level of upheaval you will allow her emotions to impose on the family.  It's not uncommon for the behavior to get worse before it gets better as far as setting boundaries.  Also, with a holiday tomorrow that is centered on the kids, and other holidays on the horizon, AND with the decrease in sunlight (assuming you are in the northern hemisphere) I find this time of year to be pretty dysregulating for H. 

Talk to the attorney, make it clear that at this time you are simply setting some background info on the records, in case things decline more.  Make it clear you don't think it's in the kids' best interest to stay with her as a custodian, and that herself has asked to live on her own.  Also make it clear that she should be the one to leave the family house, as the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few or the one, and if one person is unhappy at home, then it makes little sense for all others to have to ship off - she needs to be the one to leave if she's so adamant about it.  Find out what works in your location as far as custody and property protections. 

Yes, I think for some pqBPD, therapy can serve to validate the invalid, as far as it being almost an echo chamber if the therapist is not versed in BPD, or the pwBPD does not actually listen and only takes the points they WANT to hear. 

[RolandOfEld]

Thank you, pearlsw. I've gotten into a better headspace since last post. I should note that the self hurting was nothing more serious than biting my finger, so sorry if I made it seem extreme. At the time it felt very extreme. It wasn't an intentional need to inflict self pain, more my reaction to a moment of having no idea what to do (children both screaming and out of control, mother in depths of dysregulation attacking me for ruining her life). I tend to do these things when I want to scream and explode but can't allow myself to in front of others.

I've moved some money and found a lawyer, but I'm not ready to call yet, not ready to take it to that level of secretiveness. In the end, I still have hope to face this with her together. My ultimate goal is to get her into therapy (I found a clinic with expertise in BPD near our home!), and I am trying to develop both a strategy and a backup plan if it does not happen. Here is the rough plan, and I hope it may be a helpful reference to others on here as a way to make a plan with someone who makes it almost impossible to plan:

- get myself therapy to address my own problems, build up my strength to take care while wife is unhealthy
- see where I can accommodate her, since I will definitely need to give something to get her to agree to therapy
- only discuss and agree to plans when she is not dysregulating, and practice not JADE and SET when she's not 
- prepare for the worst (prepare money, speak to lawyer, collect written evidence of her illness)

I have to give my thanks again to you and the others on this forum, which has truly been my lifeline the last few weeks since we discovered her illness. I'm sure we can get through these tough times and find better ones.   

[pearlsw]

Hi thegoodsoldier, Just wanted to stop by to let you know I'm thinking of you and hoping you are well! I wanted to thank you as well for hosting this thread because it has opened up a lot of issues for us all to think about. I learn so much when we all put our heads together and share our experiences and strategies.

[RolandOfEld]

Hi pearlsw, I'm very touched to hear from you and have been thinking of you as well. How has your situation progressed?

It has been... .a very big night and morning. Last night I took the kids to the park to give my wife (still silent and angry) some time to herself. I forgot to eat and had a hard time managing them alone. When my son wouldn't leave at the time discussed and ran away from me I completely lost it and grabbed and pulled him by the arm... .way too hard. I scared myself. By the time we got home I was close to having a nervous breakdown. The help hotline I usually called wouldn't answer. So the best I could do was sleep. I had no hope for our family.

Then this morning I took off from work and secretly went to the hospital and saw a counselor. Before I got in my wife kept calling to rage at me for nipping at the dinner she made (evidently it was for her children, not me) and proceeding to threaten to call my company and tell them all my problems. And lock me out of the house. I told her I loved her ("F*CK YOU!" in response) but would not listen to threats and would hang up. She called again and again until I finally turned off the phone, something I would never dare do.

I saw the counselor and she gave me excellent advice in terms of taking care of myself first, that my kids will be OK, and how to approach getting my wife to see a doctor. I feel renewed with hope and feel out of danger of a full breakdown, for now anyway.

I since she my wife has tried to call a few times and even emailed me saying "emergency, call", though I'm sure this is just her way to yell at me some more. I am started to resist, and I suppose this is leading to an "extinction burst" for her as its called here. I have no idea what I will return home to tonight, but for now I will do my job as best I can to support my family.

Quite a night / morning.