Advice Needed: Moved out of home due to BP's demands; Child involved

[hazedandconfused]

I’m in a five year marriage with a four-year child.  Prior to becoming parents, the relationship always had several highs and lows.  As others may relate, when things were happiest and peaceful with BPD wife and child, that’s when the BPD wife would create chaos in the relationship.  In the last two years, threats of divorce were used.  The main complaint was not prioritizing her over our child or job – which was absolutely not true.  The BPD wife has admitted in the past that she “dominates” the relationship – so if I was guilty of anything, I think it was being a doormat and acquiescing to everything she wanted.  Because of her demands I often was late to work and had to leave work early.  If anything, if I were my boss I would have fired myself.

Fast forward… divorce papers were served 6 months ago – again without any recent warning - but in a very bizarre move, the BPD wife acted as if it didn’t happen a week later.  We lived in the same house – didn’t speak for a week – and then she tried to continue the relationship as normal.  I went with the flow and just hoped this divorce papers was something she regretted but didn’t want to admit.  Then 3 months after the divorce papers were filed, we had a very minor disagreement about our child’s doctor appointment, and then I received a demand letter the next day from her lawyer asking for recent pay stubs and demanding I move out our house we jointly own.  I ignored this demand initially.

After threats were made if I didn’t find place, I agreed I would move out after we finished two previously planned and upcoming family vacations (one with mine and one with hers – neither we informed about the divorce) that were happening in the next 6 weeks.  We went primarily because we wanted our child to see the extended family.  After I signed a lease, the BPD wife became oddly more invested in our marriage.  Physically and emotionally, things actually might not have been any better.  I asked one night if she still wanted me to move out and she said “I’m not sure.”  I was angry I had just signed a leased and wasted several thousand dollars – but I would take that over to moving out and being away from my family.   However, as you may suspect, things did not stay good for long.  After the vacations, one night after hearing my BPD wife complain about her family for 3 hours and just listening and being understanding – a sudden shift occurred and I became the negative target in her eye.  She asked why I hadn’t moved out yet.  I explained I thought things were going well and said she told me she wasn’t sure if she wanted that – but then he denied she ever said that.  I felt really betrayed and didn’t want to argue... .so after she asserted I should move out... .I just gave up, saying I would just go the next day.

I did it as promised, which was obviously very very difficult.  I’m not sure if I’ll ever get over the sadness I felt.  I’ll never forget my child asking why I had to go and where I was going.  I couldn’t explain it and I was not sure the best way too.  I’m a very involved dad – it was primary responsibility to take our child to school each morning, play with child in evening, and do bath.  Weekends were my primary responsibility and I spent 80% of my time with her, while my BPD wife did the things she wanted on her own.  The strange thing after I moved out is nothing much changed.  I continued to do spend time at home and out with our child – the only difference is that I now physically left the house at bed time.

Anyway, I’ve given a lot of background information, but now to my question.  What the F should I do?  Since I've moved out, she's been nice to me some days, but most days I feel tension.  I want to move back home and be with my child, who I fear is developing major issues from this strange arrangement.   My child cries heavily at school drop off and when I leave.  It’s heartbreaking.  I do still love my wife despite this all – and I sympathize with her because her BPD has come as result of abnormal parenting and problems in past relationships.  However, I am conflicted because I’m not sure if she’ll ever change and I do feel hurt by her abuse and actions.

My first thought is to have a talk with my wife and plainly state I want to move back in because I want our child to be happy and it’s the best way we can work on our relationship.  (I’ve been moved out for 3 weeks now.) My second thought is just be patient, do nothing for now and wait for her appreciate me ore or ask for me to move back in.  In this boomerang relationship, I think it’s possible, but I’m not sure if a BPD will ever do that though and I don’t want to wait more than one more month.  What would you do in my situation?  What would you say? 

***Thank you reading this far - and sorry I left many details vague - I'm just trying to maintain some privacy**

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[Radcliff]

hazedandconfused,
I am so sorry for the difficult situation you find yourself in.  You are to be admired for sticking close to your daughter and remaining the major force in her life.  10 and 20 years from now, that is what is going to matter most.

You've learned from experience that you can't count on your wife to be consistent on anything.  You have to be the steady one.  One way you can play this is to maintain the steady course that you desire, and let her know that you're happy to talk about anything, but will only change course if she stays consistent in wanting something for a period of time, and then you reach an agreement.  Every time my wife threatens divorce, I validated her feelings, but say that we should keep talking and if she feels the same in two weeks, we'll move forward (on some topics it's two hours, two days, etc., generally the higher the stakes the longer I want her to be consistent).  We've never made it two weeks without her changing her mind.

I would recommend that you read a book called "Splitting," by Bill Eddy, about divorcing people with BPD.  I am not at all recommending that you go down that road, but you are certainly in a zone where you need what that book can teach you.  Do you have a divorce lawyer?  Are you getting advice from him/her on custody considerations, and how your current arrangements might have a bearing on that?  I believe your biggest focus is on reconciliation, and I do not suggest you change that focus, but given that your wife has already filed, doing some homework here in the background seems advisable.

You asked about how to approach a discussion with your wife about moving back in.  Let me ask you how much learning you've been able to do on BPD.  How long have you known about it?  Have you had a chance to read any books on it?  There are tools and techniques you can use to have more productive discussions with her, many of them outlined on this Web site (look at the right hand sidebar).  If you give us an idea of where you are on the BPD learning curve, we can guide you to some specific resources.

WW

[hazedandconfused]

Thank you, WW.

I first heard about BPD five years ago when my wife told me she suspected her brother's GF had it.  Based on what she told me, I didn't think the brother's GF had it and I didn't think more of it.  Later, she said she believed her cousin's wife had it - and this I agreed to more, but I didn't look deeply into it.  Looking back, she has many similarities (rage - kicking her husband out of the house) to her cousin's wife so this was probably more accurate.  I believe she may have labeled two or three other people we've come across with BPD.

In terms of my education, I've been reading the "Stop Walking on Eggshells" workbook - listening to podcasts and reading the forums to learn more about it and strategies dealing with it.  I've been working on a framework of a "talk," but I suspect it doesn't matter what I say - but that it all depends on timing... .and even if successful, it will just unravel.

I think the key to success is to get her to seek help on her own.  I tried to invite her to see a therapist together, and after initial agreement, she said no when I tried to confirm a time. 

Thank you for the recommendation on the book, "Splitting."  I will read it.  I definitely see it as an option I may want to pursue.  In my mind, I've become more comfortable of the idea of telling my family and moving on.  I do know I will happier than I am now, but again I really worry about my daughter and the instability that will be in her life if I'm not a primary caregiver. 

My biggest worry is that the transition of anger framed on me, will be transitioned on her when she gets older - and if I'm out of her life more.  The same happens with the BPD's mother - when the mother is around the focus of anger is usually placed on her. 
We are halfway across the country from her now - which is also when my BPD's rage toward me took greater significance.  I had thought that moving away would make her happier, but it definitely made things worse for me - now that I'm the center target of her anger.

[Meili]

What do you mean by framing a "talk?"

[Radcliff]

Hi Hazedandconfused,

For me, there was a long gap between when I first heard of BPD and when I became fully committed to learning all I could and learning the coping skills that we practice here at bpdfamily.  It sounds like you're serious about learning about BPD, and you've learned about skills in the workbook.  How long would you say you've been learning at this intensity?  Have you tried to put skills like validation, SET, avoiding JADE, etc. to work yet?  The reason I ask is that you may experience a change in things once you start getting good at these skills.  It may not get you where you want to go, but if you are uncertain about what path to take in the future, don't worry, you control the timing, and you have time to learn, practice, and see what you can make of what you have.

WW

[hazedandconfused]

@Meili - by "talk" I mean my request to move back home and try to reconcile.  I have no idea how to say this.  My initial thought was to "apologize" - because I feel like she is always wanting that - but I'm not sure what I'd be apologizing for.

MY BPD wife had talked about before about living separately and working on our marriage by doing things like going on dates.  This was a little preposterous to me since my feeling is that if I'm out of the house that I half own, I'm not going to be in a mood for anything like a date.  I might be wrong if my goal is to reconcile, but I just can't do it.  I don't show it to her, but I'm angry and sad that this whole situation is happening to my daughter and I.  Every night before I go to my new temporary home, my daughter tells me "don't leave" - "whatever you do, don't leave" - "i wish I could go with you."

@WW I did know what those acronyms were, but I looked them up and I am doing that.  The problem is I'm doing it because I'm choosing to extremely limit what I say to her.  When I am in the same room with her, I don't say much.  I don't react strongly to any of her complaints or statements.  I'm just an "Ok" machine with sincere validation.  Doing a semi-silent treatment is not productive I know, so I have tried to start some conversations (did you see this ... .), but if I detect she is any bad mood - which I would say is at least 50% of the time- I won't try to start any conversation.  I do worry I'm doing long term damage when I don't say much.  Before I felt like I had to have this "talk" soon - but I'm being more patient about being out of the house.  What do you feel?  Do you think by being away longer, I am normalizing this and making this situation permanent.  Or is being patient the right move - putting any reconciliation initiation in her court.

Based on what I've read - it seems important that I don't seem sad or angry.  I am trying to put on a good face, but I wonder if she thinks I'm happy will that make her angrier or appreciate me more?  I honestly have no idea how she really feels.  I could see her being sad since she is alone now - but I can also see her being happy that her perceived "bad" husband is no longer "controlling" her.  Based on my observations, and consistent with BPD marks, I think she might vacillate between the two.

[Meili]

Apologizing for something when you don't know what you are apologizing for is never a good idea. The same goes for apologizing for things that you did not do. We do not want to validate the invalid.

It could be even worse if a custody dispute happens and you've admitted to doing something heinous that you didn't actually do.

Getting from "I want you to move out" to "I agree, you should come home" within short time period is going to be tough. That doesn't mean that it can't happen, just that it will be difficult.

Reconciling these relationships takes time. It's a "long game" endeavor. That being said, it can happen and you have the power to change the dynamics. There are communication tools, the basis of which are in the sidebar to the right of the page that have proven successful for others in similar situations.

It sounds like you and your wife need to get on the same page about things. Listening to her with empathy and validating the valid will go a long way to helping you communicate with her better.

There are also communication techniques that can be used to better convey what you want to say so that she will listen and hear you.

[hazedandconfused]

Thank you Meili for your advice.

From your own experience or others - is there a typical time reconciliation happens after a move out?  Hard question I know, but have you heard it happening in 3 months, 6 months, 1 year, etc.?  It feels like the longer I am out, the worse chance we will reconcile.  Also, the worse it will be on my daughter and her having long term fear of abandonment or other issues.  Neither my wife or I have given a real explanation to her of why I have to leave at night.

If my goal is to move back, should I just act "normal" as if things were "normal."  Right now I try to limit conversation, and only really bring logistical (when to pick up) or basic things.  Should I be more personal (guarded on issues sensitive to BPD) and act happy?  Right now all weekend activities are separate and I don't even eat dinner at the table with them, even though I'm home at dinner.  By acting "normal" and I just normalizing our separation or is this a positive step?

I agree I should not apologize anymore.  I used to say sorry if I reply 15 minutes after a text, but I can't feed this need for apology all the time.  But should I ever ask for an apology to own up to her mistakes - whether past or present?  If my wife is not getting professional help, which to me is the key to all this, I'm not sure how she'll ever reflect on herself and evaluate her own behavior.   

Appreciate all the advice.

[Jack_50]

My opinion : She's testing you.

She's checking how far she can go before you put your foot down.
Proof is that she's angrier with you since you moved out: It proved to her that you do not assert and defend you principles and are thus considered weak. And no woman wants to be associated with a weak man ever.

The fact that you do not seem to know what is going on, is a further factor of frustration to her : You do not understand her, which is a critical requirement for any boyfriend/husband.  For her the situation could not be more clear : She's checking how strong you are as a protector, and you're failing big time.

Now how to handle this.  You need to stay calm at all costs when talking to her.  She will try to work you into an emotional state, to test your mettle.  As a man, your strength lies in a factual view of reality, and you need to stay in that perspective.  Once on emotional ice, you're lost; women are generally far superior on the emotional plain, and you do not stand a chance once you leave factual territory.  So work on your zen.

Then prepare a list of facts that are relevant in your perspective : How the current situation is traumatizing for the child, that you want to stay together, and that several aspects of the current arragement are simply unacceptable to you.

Next time you talk, stay zen, and bring up the facts you've listed.  Whatever her reaction, do NOT engage.  She will try to get you back into emotional overload, like it has worked in the past.  Just repeat your facts, and that this is the way you see things.  If you feel you're losing control, take a break, until you're back to zen.  She will definitely lure you into an emotional state, so expect and prepare for it.

One interaction will not suffice; she will re-verify if last time was just a one-off success on your part, or if it really means a profound change in your assertiveness.  So be prepared for repeat sessions.

During all of this, ignore her personal attacks; they're her personal emotion, and not necessarily factually correct.  A mistake we men often make is that we consider another person's opinion as incorrect if it does not represent reality as we see it.  While for a lot of women, verbal communication is a means to communicate an emotional state, and the correctness of what's being said is only of secondary importance.
So keep in mind that she is just trying to express how she feels, not what reality is.  It is here that the listening skills mentioned on this site play a major role.
Maybe you could organize some listening evenings, were she does the talking, and you just listen, taking the last point into account.  It will at least give her the feeling that you care about her wellbeing again; from there, she will naturally be more inclined for further cooperation.  Plus it will allow you to see from where her opinion is coming; her reasoning might be totally logical once you are aware of the foundations she's built it on.

My 2 cents,

Jack

[Radcliff]

Hazedandconfused, let me preface this by saying it is my personal opinion.  I'd value the thoughts of seniors like Meili who've been around for longer.  But my feeling is that you ought to move back in as soon as possible, and you should not wait for an invitation.  I'm not saying to invade like the marines, but make a plan, and get yourself back in.  It is your home.  Moving out might make sense if you were dealing with someone totally rational who you could trust in any future custody situation, but that is not the case here.  Perhaps ease back into it -- stay late talking to her, and then sleep on the couch or something.  If this is your joint home, and you are on the lease, or own the home with her, she cannot make you leave.  I'm not saying to pick a fight -- always better to get agreement, but knowing your rights can give you confidence, even if you are playing with gentleness.  You are the one who needs to lead here.

On the apology issue, I totally agree with Meili.  If you've done something against your values or commitments, promptly give an apology for what you own.  But do not apologize to appease her.  I have made this mistake, the cost later is too high, even if you get temporary relief.  One useful technique is called "partial validation," where she slings a bunch of stuff at you, and you realize that there is some of it that you actually own.  Don't waste breath defending yourself against the baloney, but promptly apologize for the part of it that is real.  It is about emotions, not facts, so that partial validation can handle the emotional part of it nicely sometimes. 

WW

[Meili]

I must agree with WW about moving back if that's an option. It's far easier to repair the situation if you have communication.

For the sake of clarity, there's a difference between "acting normal" and "moving forward with your life." The latter is what you should be doing. You'll notice that I didn't say "move on," I said "move forward." The situation is what it is and it is what you have to work with at this moment.

I agree with you that therapy will greatly improve the situation, but whether or not she goes is completely out of your control. After things calm down, you may have the option to gently nudge her in that direction, but now is not the time to try to push the issue.

Likewise, now is not the time to push for an apology from her. Anyone who is emotionally aroused, BPD or not, has difficulty thinking logically. It is even worse for people with BPD traits. So, expecting her to accept accountability for her actions and choices and to apologies is a bit futile right now.

The current objective for you, in my humble opinion, is to stop the bleeding. Before you can start making things better, you have to stop making them worse.

[hazedandconfused]

Thank you everyone for your advice.  I welcome others if there are any other thoughts, but I think I have a plan.

I've been trying to schedule time to talk - with a therapist or just us during the day (my lunch break) - but I've been rebuffed with delay, though never a solid never.  I will want to get some direction b/c I'm confused by the whole matter.  Each day is different depending on her mood.

Whether successful or not, I will share later what has happened.  Thank you again to everyone who has offered advice.  This message board has been very helpful for me.