How likely am I to get custody?

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

I live in Ontario, Canada.

We are still together but I think that it is likely that we will be separating in the very near future.  My wife is uBPD.  We have been married for 23 years and were together for a few years before that.  My wife used to be a lovely person but in the last five years she has really deteriorated.  We have a 15d with an autism spectrum disability that severely affects her functioning.  We also have a normal 9d - but some of my wife's bizarre behaviour includes letting the 9d drink from a baby bottle and wear diapers at night and (on weekends) during the day.

uBPDw has also become an alcoholic in recent years - or at least drinks extensively.  17 months ago she was charged with assault on me and during the domestic disturbance she was also charged with assaulting a police officer.  She was able to get the charges stayed.  She was out of the house for about 6 weeks while on bail but moved back in last July.  Things were somewhat better for a while - she refuses to admit that there is anything wrong with her but while charges were pending we were going to a marriage counselor and she cut back on the drinking.  But since her court case is settled she refuses to go to marriage counselling and she has started to drink a lot more and have more angry episodes.   I don't know that she has had any other criminal charges against her but there are other people that she has harassed via emails, phone calls, etc.  I wouldn't be surprised if some of those folks have called the police about the harassment from her.

We have two full-time nannies and one part-time nanny so that the children have someone to look after them from 7am-9pm.  I am currently working as a consultant on a part-time contract but I have been the bread-winner in the family and my wife has not really worked at all.  Given the people we have working for us she doesn't really have a lot of child-care responsibilities either.

I can't take the verbal, emotional and (occasionally but less often recently) physical abuse.

In an ideal world I would get custody and I would continue to live with the children in the house and she would move out.  How likely is that?

I have spoken to a lawyer and she thinks that I could get custody, but isn't it VERY hard for a father to win custody? 

Most of the time her behaviour is normal - I would say she is a high-functioning BPD, but there are times when she flies into a rage, and not only at me.  And then there is her drinking.

[polaris9]

I live in Ontario, Canada.

We are still together but I think that it is likely that we will be separating in the very near future.  My wife is uBPD.  We have been married for 23 years and were together for a few years before that.  My wife used to be a lovely person but in the last five years she has really deteriorated.  We have a 15d with an autism spectrum disability that severely affects her functioning.  We also have a normal 9d - but some of my wife's bizarre behaviour includes letting the 9d drink from a baby bottle and wear diapers at night and (on weekends) during the day.

uBPDw has also become an alcoholic in recent years - or at least drinks extensively.  17 months ago she was charged with assault on me and during the domestic disturbance she was also charged with assaulting a police officer.  She was able to get the charges stayed.  She was out of the house for about 6 weeks while on bail but moved back in last July.  Things were somewhat better for a while - she refuses to admit that there is anything wrong with her but while charges were pending we were going to a marriage counselor and she cut back on the drinking.  But since her court case is settled she refuses to go to marriage counselling and she has started to drink a lot more and have more angry episodes.   I don't know that she has had any other criminal charges against her but there are other people that she has harassed via emails, phone calls, etc.  I wouldn't be surprised if some of those folks have called the police about the harassment from her.

We have two full-time nannies and one part-time nanny so that the children have someone to look after them from 7am-9pm.  I am currently working as a consultant on a part-time contract but I have been the bread-winner in the family and my wife has not really worked at all.  Given the people we have working for us she doesn't really have a lot of child-care responsibilities either.

I can't take the verbal, emotional and (occasionally but less often recently) physical abuse.

In an ideal world I would get custody and I would continue to live with the children in the house and she would move out.  How likely is that?

I have spoken to a lawyer and she thinks that I could get custody, but isn't it VERY hard for a father to win custody? 

Most of the time her behaviour is normal - I would say she is a high-functioning BPD, but there are times when she flies into a rage, and not only at me.  And then there is her drinking.

[livednlearned]

Hi polaris9,

So sorry for the suffering that brings you here

And glad you found the site.

When you say custody, can you break down how your lawyer defines it?

Custody (at least in the U.S., and I believe it is similar in Canada) is usually carved up into a bunch of other things:

legal custody, which is further carved into decision-making (medical, educational)
physical custody, which can include things like residential parent for school purposes
visitation, which is where the kids physically spend their time, especially nights.

Most people start with joint legal, and then one parent is awarded primary physical custody of the kids, and that parent typically gets more visitation, although that isn't always the case.

Did your lawyer specify what he or she meant by saying you could get custody? Did that mean you would get sole primary and legal custody with 100 percent visitation? If so, that's pretty rare. Most family law courts like to run out the clock and at the very least allow a parent the chance to rehabilitate themselves. Meaning, your wife would go to anger management classes or go to AA, maybe start with supervised visitation and then work her way up to unsupervised, then eventually to having an overnight.

Are you documenting the angry episodes?

Did the L give you any other advice about how to proceed?

LnL

[polaris9]

I am mainly concerned with legal and physical custody.  I am fine with my wife having visitation or partial custody although I am concerned about overnight since she is often drunk in the evenings.  Her way of handling that would be to pay someone to sleep overnight - I think that is a needless expense.

In my ideal world the children would live in our current home with me and my wife would get another house or apartment nearby.  I would make the decisions regarding schooling, health care, etc until she is rehabilitated.  My wife will fight this tooth and nail

My wife has made decisions that I disagree with regarding the children's schooling, therapy (for our 15d), etc.  She doesn't deal with stress or conflict well - her way of handling things is to go nuclear at the smallest provocation and want to bring in lawyers, etc.  We had such an incident recently with school for 15d.

I am documenting the anger episodes in a journal on my iPad and have been for several years.  I also have lots of text messages, emails, etc although separating the wheat from the chaff will take a lot of time.

I guess the other question is how aggressive should I be at the outset?  She will fight like hell to have custody - but I don't want the kids to be negatively affected.  Conversely, if she gets mad she is very likely to act irrationally which will help my case and, hopefully, force her to start getting some treatment.  I haven't spoken to my lawyer too much about this but she seemed to be on the more aggressive side.

[livednlearned]

It's encouraging that your L thinks you have a chance. The next question is to have your L describe the strategy and tactics that would help you reach your goal. If you feel comfortable, we, your very own peanut gallery, can share our thoughts  

Bit of an aside about dads and primary custody. In the states that track this data, they found that more moms get primary or full custody on average, but in the cases where dads file for primary or full custody, they are successful at the same rate that moms are. I would guess that it's the same in Canada? Made me wonder if some of the bias about dads and custody may be perpetuated by lawyers who dissuade their dad clients from asking for full custody because they might not get it.

To my knowledge, there are no downsides to asking for more custody, especially if you can make a case for it, which you can.

Does your L say that the DV episode can be used as evidence in your case? In some states here in the U.S., they will only consider things that happened in the prior six months. Although, in practice, things are much messier and older stuff can get introduced.  

I guess the other question is how aggressive should I be at the outset?  

Bill Eddy, who wrote Splitting: Protecting Yourself While Divorcing a BPD/NPD Spouse, talks about having an assertive lawyer. You can read about what it means to be an assertive lawyer here.

What you describe with your wife, about how she became dsyregulated and made things worse for herself -- that happened in my case too.

It's good that you realize it's going to happen, as hard as it will be to go through.

Would you consider counseling for your daughters? If your wife will not agree, perhaps you can ask for it as part of the initial custody order.

The hard-won lessons I learned is that court is not nearly as effective with high-conflict divorces as we would like. You may have to be pro-active and look for places where you can tighten things up. For example, have your L propose things that have deadlines and an expectation for compliance, with consequences for non-compliance. Something like having mom undergo a psychiatric evaluation (just an example) that has to be completed by day/date. Specify the eval (e.g. MMPI objective test), and that it has to be administered by a psychiatrist trained to do the test, with three names of people qualified to do the test. Until compliance, mom gets limited supervision. Or, failure to comply means your custody time is extended to X.

The point is to lock up the loopholes so that she can't stonewall, obstruct, extend, etc. Put a lot of sunlight on the ability of both parties to cooperate with custody orders -- you will have no trouble here, but she will struggle.

The more non-compliance the court sees, the more documentation that will matter. A judge is considered the supreme witness, so what he or she witnesses during an active custody case tends to count for more than anything else.

[polaris9]

Thanks - I would like the kids to get therapy to help but I am not sure if that makes sense for the 15d given her disability as I am not sure if she will be able to comprehend everything.

I haven't talked specifics with my L but she did say that certainly the charges will help my case.

It will be hard to get w to agree to any sort of treatment/therapy.  She fought hard not to do that with her assault charges but partially because she was concerned that admitting to any problems would hurt her case in a future divorce.  But she handled her defense very strangely and ended up using three lawyers - she fired (or was fired by) the first two lawyers and it seems to have been because she was refusing to communicate with them.  At times she will refuse to answer a straight yes/no question - like when asked if willing to have a psych eval for her assault charges she would respond - "the policeman used excessive force on me", etc.

My w goes back and forth with what she wants - one day she wants a divorce and the next day she says that she loves me and wants to stay together.  But she isn't willing to do anything proactive to stay together - like marriage counseling, pysch assessment, etc.  But if this does go to court and takes a while to resolve I am guessing that it will become obvious to all concerned that she definitely has significant mental health issues.

[polaris9]

Bill Eddy, who wrote Splitting: Protecting Yourself While Divorcing a BPD/NPD Spouse, talks about having an assertive lawyer. You can read about what it means to be an assertive lawyer here. .

Oh and thanks for that link - that is excellent stuff.  Any other resources available in addition to the doc from Maultby?

[livednlearned]

Oh and thanks for that link - that is excellent stuff.  Any other resources available in addition to the doc from Maultby?

I'm glad it's helpful! Here's another one that might be useful, about High Conflict Personalities and court: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=271911.msg12580077#msg12580077

A while back we pulled together lots of resources on the board that you can find under the LESSONS link at the top of the board, too.

[flourdust]

Hi, and welcome, polaris. I'm a dad who is divorcing a woman with BPD. We've settled the custody part of our case, and I have majority physical custody.

I don't know the law where you are. Where I am, if there's a disagreement on custody, the court will likely order a parenting evaluation by a specialist. Factors that are likely to make a difference will depend on your local law, but could include a) who has a history of being a responsible and engaged parent, b) are the parents both capable of managing their adult responsibilities - maintaining a household, etc., c) is there a history of abuse of the kids, and d) the wishes of the children (given more weight as they get older).

All of the evidence you have about your wife's rages, drinking, etc. -- how much of that impacts the kids? The court is less likely to care if your wife is horrible to you or to other adults. It's the relationship with the kids that matters.

[polaris9]

The wife's rages, etc have less direct effect on the kids, in that she hasn't yelled at them or hit them, but they certainly do pick up on her moods and I can tell that they are upset when she is in an agitated state.  Then there is the drinking - it is not unusual for her to drink a bottle of wine in an afternoon/evening and then have a "nightcap" or two.  Is there such a thing as PUI (Parenting under influence of alcohol)?  But this may be harder to prove in a court, unless she takes a breathalyzer every night at 9pm.

Where my wife's actions do have more of a direct effect on the children is decisions around schooling, health care, parenting, etc.  My w is usually very confrontational with the school and at times will send bizarre, nonsensical emails (or phone calls) to the school.  15d is having trouble adjusting to her school and my w refuses to meet with teachers/principal unless there is a lawyer present.  My w has called the police in the past and accused teachers/EAs of abuse.  My w also does not want to "push" the kids which has delayed toilet training, etc.  For example, 9d is still allowed to drink from a baby bottle and wears a diaper at night and at times on the weekend.  I am trying to end these practices but w does not agree and doesn't have a problem with them.  When my w looks after our disabled 15d she may sit in a soiled diaper for hours as my wife does not want to "push" her and have her sit on the toilet to have a bm or urinate.  But I am wondering if these items will be hard to prove in court?

Our instance is also somewhat different as we have hired help who have the bulk of the child care responsibilities.  So however the custody battle goes, the childcare, at least on weekdays, will be primarily from the nannies.  I would like to reduce the amount of help we get from others but in recent months/years my w has gone the other way and has hired more babysitters and/or increased their hours.  IMHO my wife feels incapable, or is unwilling, when it comes to looking after the children.  If I have custody I would cut the nannies/babysitters way back.

edit - In reading the document:  www.gbfamilylaw.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/Beth-High-Conflict-Family-Law-Matters.pdf
some of this perfectly describes my w - such as this quote: 

This target of blame is generally someone
close to the high conflict person (spouse, family
member, best friend) or someone in a position of
authority (supervisor, government agency, doctor,
lawyer, police, politician). High conflict people take
aggressive action against the target of blame,
including filing lawsuits, filing grievances, submitting
employment complaints, spreading rumors, and
committing acts of violence, in an effort to get that
person to go away or change their behavior.

My w has done this kind of things several times.  And for the people of authority you could also include principals, and teachers.

[flourdust]

The drinking can be a serious issue. You don't need to document that she's drunk (her blood alcohol level); you document the effect of the drinking on her parenting.

It sounds like there's a fair amount of potential evidence that she has problems parenting -- the interactions with the school, which are documented through the emails (and your attorney may also ask school staff or teachers to write letters or testify about the family situation). The toilet issues you mention you can also document -- with journal entries, photos, or letters/testimony from the nannies.

Have you retained a lawyer yet or just spoken with one? The Splitting book has some good tips on selecting the right attorney. You may wish to interview 2-3 to find the one that fits your situation best.

[polaris9]

I spoke to this lawyer in June 2016 after w was arrested as I thought that my w may file for divorce at that time.  I then spoke to the lawyer again a couple of weeks ago as things have gotten worse and as I mentally am getting close to pulling the separation trigger.  Plus my w also announced that she has bought a $500k condo - and I wanted to learn more about protecting my financial assets.  I may not be able to stop that condo transaction but it is less of a big deal if our assets are divided down the middle as that will be part of her 50% of assets.

I haven't retained her yet but I am comfortable going with this lawyer.  She was recommended by a former colleague who used her in a similar situation as he had recently been divorced and his ex had mental health issues.  Maybe this isn't true but I also feel that having a female lawyer may help a father trying to get custody (my w's lawyer is a man).

My w did retain a divorce lawyer last year but I am not sure what the current state of that is.  She did have me pay a bill with that firm a few months ago.  But it did not appear that she had been spending too much time communicating with her lawyer as the invoice was for a fairly small time commitment - a few emails and phone calls.

Getting testimony/letters from the nannies is tricky as I don't want to force them to have to pick sides and that is how my w will see it as that is how pwBPD think - there is only black and white.  They are dependent upon our family for their financial security and my wife will fire them for siding with me if she wins custody.  However there may not be a choice is if it gets nasty as my w may try to force them to testify but it would backfire for her.  But I may be able to get letters/testimony from my w's siblings.

[flourdust]

I suggest you retain that lawyer ASAP. It sounds like things are moving, with or without you!

As for the nannies ... .they don't have to pick sides, just answer questions about what is happening in the home. But you can bring your concerns to the lawyer, and she can decide if it is worth putting them on the spot. She'll have a better sense of how much different types of evidence will matter for the case you want to make.

[polaris9]

I suggest you retain that lawyer ASAP. It sounds like things are moving, with or without you!

I don't think things are moving from my wife's perspective.  As far as I can tell she has not contacted the lawyer much, if at all.  I am 99% that she is not ready to pull the separation/divorce trigger on her side.  I am preparing to do so and give her an ultimatum as I can't continue on the current trajectory.

With her it is like (and I posted this in another forum) Sam the Sheepdog and Ralph the Wolf.  At times we will be best buddies, but then it becomes a high level conflict for a period of time.  But that ends and she can then be lovey-dovey - coming to bed, snuggling up to me and saying she loves me.  But then the next morning she will start sending me hostile emails/texts as soon as she wakes.  Rinse and repeat.

[livednlearned]

One thing that some members have had a lot of success with is having a custody evaluation done. In the U.S., this is not cheap, like $5000, and usually involves having a trained custody evaluator spend time (individually) with both parents, and with the kids. Both of you may have to go through a court-ordered psychiatric evaluation. If you do, ideally this would be the MMPI-2, an objective psychiatric eval that is apparently hard to falsify, although the Internet does have some other opinions on it.

The key is to be very circumspect in who you hire to do this. Ideally, you would find the top three candidates and then allow your wife to pick one. And maybe have the order say that the CE cannot be fired unless both parents agree, or anything to prevent serial firing of CEs.

It sounds like your wife will, in all likelihood, fire her lawyer several times, so expect that the case will drag out and leave a wake of chaos like it did before. For that reason, you might want to tell your lawyer that it's important to be very proactive, like filing first and having your wife ordered to live elsewhere, making the argument that the kids stay with you to keep things consistent. The $500K condo sounds like a good option   That way, your kids are at least living with you while the case drags on, instead of vice versa.

My ex also had an alcohol problem, very similar to what you describe. The court may not care as much about the drinking exactly, what they will care about is how she responds to allegations she has a problem, and what she does with those allegations. For example, my ex claimed he didn't have a problem, and then, in a deposition, claimed he was good at quitting, and had in fact quit many times. And that he only drank because I stressed him out so much. And that he didn't think it was fair that he had to quit drinking, but that I didn't, even though he agreed I rarely if ever drank, and only because I wanted to make him feel bad. I mean, gah. The reasoning of a seasoned alcoholic is pretty special.

About the caregivers and your concern about how that might affect them and your kids -- you may be able to have a custody evaluator contact them so that they won't be asked to testify. My son's therapist made us sign a waiver saying that she would not testify in court. However, we ended up with a parenting coordinator who, as part of her authority, called to talk to the therapist. That allowed her insights to influence things without putting T in a position where she had to betray confidences publicly. Maybe something like that would work in your situation.

The most important thing I found with a stonewaller ex spouse was to make sure I was 10 steps ahead, and that I had leverage. A lot of times that leverage was to make sure there was a consequence for non-compliance or stonewalling or obstructing so that if he behaved like that, I had a plan forward without having to go back to court.

[polaris9]

Thanks for the advice - the only problem with the condo is that it is under construction and won’t be ready for at least 6-9 months.

[livednlearned]

Thanks for the advice - the only problem with the condo is that it is under construction and won’t be ready for at least 6-9 months.

Did your lawyer walk you through step to have your wife removed from the marital home?

Where she moves after the order may not concern the court.

The bigger challenge, for many people leaving a BPD relationship, is the fear, obligation, and guilt (FOG) we feel doing something that will, without question, poke the bear.   You might like the idea that she has somewhere to go that pleases her, if only to help you deal with the guilt... .?

If she is planning to buy a $500K condo, then she believes there is money to handle the mortgage, I would guess? If so, then is she/you able to cover the same amount in rent until the condo is ready?

Which does raise the question... .why is she buying the condo? Does your lawyer think this is going to help your case?

[polaris9]

She said that she is buying the condo as an investment to rent out so that she has something in her name.  But when I asked her how much she expects to net each month after mortgage, etc, she has no idea.  Who knows why a pwBPD does things at times?

Initially I was very PO'ed about the condo, but now I am not too worried.  I am pretty sure that the way things usually work here in Ontario is that your assets get divided 50-50.  So she can get the condo in her 50% of the settlement of assets.  It means that she will have much less in liquid assets (ie cash or stocks) but that is her problem.  I agreed to sign as a guarantor on the mortgage for the condo as one last gasp to try to save the relationship.  I can probably try to cancel it now but that would be poking the bear - I know what you mean by that.  And until I get more time to speak with the lawyer I don't want to do anything to provoke her.

Last night I told my wife that I want to separate unless she agreed to (1) marriage counseling, (2) mental health assessment/treatment and (3) treatment for alcoholism.  She refused so I said that I will call a lawyer ASAP and begin the separation process.  At first she didn't seem to believe me but later on she seemed to grasp the significance and told me to sleep in the guest room, which I did.

I contacted my divorce lawyer this morning but she is in court so I can't meet with her until Monday.

I hope that I can stay in the house with the kids and she if forced to move out but who knows how it will go.  She can appear normal at most times, and reading the Splitting book by Eddy and Kreger it says that you should be prepared to lose some of the court orders, etc, especially early in the process when the pwBPD can appear normal to third parties like courts and attorneys.  But I am pretty sure that she will not keep it up over the long term - she will fire lawyers, do things that will hurt her case and her abnormal behaviour will start to become obvious to all.  I just hope that she doesn't do anything that negatively affects the kids.

[flourdust]

Just a quick note on the condo - unless she paid the full contract price in cash, the value of it in dividing up assets will be current equity. So if she put down a $100K down payment and the housing market is about the same, it will be considered a $100K asset on your balance sheet, and the mortgage will be a factor in her budget for consideration of any spousal maintenance.

[polaris9]

Thanks flourdust - but presumably that means that she takes over the debt responsibility as well?  Could I insist that rather than a mortgage we just pay for it in cash?

[livednlearned]

I found it was important to hold my cards close and ask for more than what I wanted -- standard negotiating in business, but for some reason not as self-evident in divorce.

Your ex will want everything, no compromise.

She may also want to "win," so giving her the feeling of a win can be an important tactic.

Have a bottom line for yourself, and share that only after three or four rounds of negotiation.

That's one of Eddy's recommendations when mediating with someone who has a personality disorder. The biology of her emotional dysregulation may make negotiations extra strange because she will become emotionally flooded and unable to reason. Some people opt to mediate in separate rooms.

It's a personal choice that has pros and cons.

Which raises the question of whether or not you will go through a mediation process?

Also, in terms of paying the $500K mortgage in cash, or doing anything to untangle yourself from the title, look everywhere in your situation for leverage, small and medium and large. And then look for places where she could throw a wrench into things.

I gave my ex the house, and it took four trips to court to get him to refinance so I could take myself off the deed. It ended up costing me money to gift him the house! I could've used proceeds of the sale of the house to finance my court costs   

Live and learn.

And there was no leverage I could use other than going back to court, where the judge, after tens of thousands of dollars and multiple contempts of court, recommended my ex think about his priorities in jail. That never came to pass because it incentivized ex to cut a check there in court. If he didn't have a set of signed documents to me by the end of the week, he was to get himself to jail. 

That's a lot of stress for both parties to go to, so if there is something in the $500K condo that can be used to your advantage, then hold that card close.

I know it sounds so awful to talk about things this way, but we become responsible for our disordered spouses because they often cannot help themselves and become their own worst enemy, meanwhile dragging the kids through the mud with them.  

[flourdust]

Thanks flourdust - but presumably that means that she takes over the debt responsibility as well?  Could I insist that rather than a mortgage we just pay for it in cash?

Those are both possibilities for negotiation. Assuming that your court system favors something close to a 50/50 split, it's up to you and your ex how things are split up -- both assets and debts. You could negotiate that she keeps the title to the condo, assumes the mortgage obligation, and compensates you for 50% of the equity. Or perhaps you agree in the divorce decree that the condo will be sold and the proceeds divided equally. These details all need to be spelled out, and there are other options. I would advise against any agreement that results in you forming a limited business partnership, where you are both contributing to paying the mortgage.

[polaris9]

Thanks - this transaction has not closed so my preference would be to kill it but the w is very attached to the idea of buying this place, even though she seems to have no interest in actually living there.

[flourdust]

If you're getting divorced and your signature is required for the purchase agreement - don't sign! This is an added financial complication that is going to do you no good.

[ForeverDad]

I would agree with flourdust, don't sign unless you are very sure it won't come back to bite you later.  There are too many risks overlooked or just plain ignored when you later get to the financial negotiations.  (And women/mothers are often given a big but unwritten default preference in the outcome.)  Just say you won't sign but once the divorce is Final she can do what she pleases with her share of any marital assets and debts.

I write that because if you become a co-owner on her as-yet-unfinished condo you would probably become a co-borrower too.  What if you go forward and then when it comes time for you to relinquish your ownership she fails to get a new mortgage in her name only?  Adding to joint assets would make the divorce more complicated, more of a headache and perhaps even add to her leverage over you.  For example, what if the lenders won't rewrite the mortgage due to her not having enough credit, or she fails to complete her required paperwork?  Then despite being divorced this condo would tie you to her for many years to come, whether she is reasonable or unreasonable.  (Legal aspect: Never relinquish ownership until the mortgage is rewritten without you as borrower.)

I would agree also with LivednLearned, Leverage shouldn't be Gifted Away.  As I noted above, you may be able to get the divorce done sooner and on less unfavorable terms if she knows she has to finish the divorce before buying big ticket items.

[polaris9]

Thanks - I really shouldn't have agreed to sign on the mortgage but I may be able to withdraw my consent and/or update them with information that may mean that I/we don't qualify for the mortgage.  The other thing that could happen is that the condo could just be paid for in cash as she will have enough cash in her 50% of the assets to pay for it in cash.  And here in Canada there isn't a tax advantage in having a mortgage on your residence, although that isn't true if this is for an investment.

[ForeverDad]

I really shouldn't have agreed to sign on the mortgage but I may be able to withdraw my consent and/or update them with information that may mean that I/we don't qualify for the mortgage.

You can always reconsider prior plans, commitments and promises.  Surely you or your lawyer can come up with reasons to state that prior ideas just won't work.  Easier to have a quick blow-up (on her part) and the issue ended now than months or years of extended anguish sticking to original plans.

I think what you're facing are the normally wonderful qualities of us Nice Guys and Nice Gals.  If we promise something we feel we have to be super-fair and stick with it.  Well, at any point along that path, up until you have pen in hand to sign, you can Stop.  I may be wrong but if you don't have a legal obligation or requirement to continue then it is best for all concerned to step back and leave her no alternative but to do a purchase after the divorce is final.  Maybe she should find a home to Rent To Own.

And most definitely don't co-sign a mortgage.  Why?  If she later doesn't make her payments then the lenders will come after you.  Won't matter whether you are co-owner or not.  Won't matter whether court orders her to make all payments or court orders her to get a new mortgage or court orders that you're not responsible.  You sign, the buck stops with you.

Avoid more complications ... .KISS - Keep It Simple, Silly.

[polaris9]

Thanks - to be honest I don't fell like I have to be a nice guy here as she didn't hold up her end of the bargain.  As a last ditch effort I said that I would guarantee the mortgage if she would resume counselling.  A few hours before the counselling appointment she bailed - so she broke the terms of the deal.  But I am waiting for the separation to become official before I try to get out of the mortgage guarantee.  But she will still be able to buy the condo with her proceeds of our assets - but it isn't a good time to be doing so when you are just starting separation/divorce proceedings.

[Waddams]

You can always reconsider prior plans, commitments and promises.  Surely you or your lawyer can come up with reasons to state that prior ideas just won't work.  Easier to have a quick blow-up (on her part) and the issue ended now than months or years of extended anguish sticking to original plans.

In addition - you really don't need to justify yourself as to why you changed your mind.  Just a simply "I changed my mind, I'm not willing to do that anymore after giving it more consideration."  Period.  No more explanation is needed.

[flourdust]

But she will still be able to buy the condo with her proceeds of our assets - but it isn't a good time to be doing so when you are just starting separation/divorce proceedings.

Once you're divorced, she can do whatever she wants with her money, and you don't have to worry about it. She can buy a condo or send it all to a TV preacher or buy frozen concentrated orange juice futures. It will all be her problem to deal with.

[ForeverDad]

In most divorces I believe the financial wrangling comes at the end of the divorce, after all the mediation, parental investigation, custody evaluation, settlement conference, etc were done.  Maybe if she really wants access to a huge amount of cash sooner then (1) a special agreement can be made using the lawyers to separate out an equal amount for each of you, not just her, to control separately in private accounts.  But the lawyers would have to write it so it is legally binding, perhaps even file it with the court.  Or (2) having the cash divvied up at the end of the divorce may give her incentive to hurry through the custody & parenting schedule negotiations gifting you a better outcome in that regard.