Using BPD evidence in Divorce

[Return2Wholeness]

Hello all, this is my first post. I had been married for 18yrs to a man with BPD with avoidance issues but just found out he was diagnosed 2 wks ago when I found some paperwork. We are in the process of getting divorced, he's not following court orders on anything and is filing contempt charges full of lies against me. It was his decison to leave the marriage, start affairs and lie about them. He is currently living with his girlfriend and 4 kids who used to be a friend of mine. Disgusting... .

I have been reading the recommended book "Splitting: Protecting yourself while divorcing someone with BPD." I don't understand (maybe I am missing something) but the book says that you should not bring this issue to court. I spoke to my lawyer briefly and she said she would use this information to our advantage but to be prepared for the "other side" to claim that I knew and yet still married him and had a child with him. Again, I DID NOT know about this and he has gone untreated his entire adult life. I thought he struggled with ADHD, depression and anxiety, he had gone on meds off and on but didn't stick with any long term treatment.

Can some of you chime in who have read this book or have used this diagnosis of BPD to your advantage in divorce proceedings? He is turning into a monster or rather showing his true nature is more like it. The mask is off and he continues to Lie and Blame.

[formflier]

Generally speaking, follow your lawyers advice.  Especially if you are confident your lawyer has successful history with "high conflict divorce" cases... or specifically with BPD in divorce.

Are there kids involved in the divorce?

I'm sorry you are going through this.  You have found a resource that can help!

FF

[livednlearned]

He is currently living with his girlfriend and 4 kids who used to be a friend of mine.

Oof. I am so sorry, Return2Wholeness. It is a double gut punch when a disordered spouse, who has created chaos and abuse in the home, goes off and seemingly picks up a new life while we are left sweeping up the mess. I hope you are able to find ways to take care of yourself, really taking care of yourself, so that you can heal and grow and move on when the divorce is finally over.

I have been reading the recommended book "Splitting: Protecting yourself while divorcing someone with BPD." I don't understand (maybe I am missing something) but the book says that you should not bring this issue to court.

Are there any custody issues to resolve? Or, does his mental illness or infidelity impact your alimony? Every state has a slightly different way of handling fault or no-fault divorces, so I guess the question is how you want the BPD diagnosis to matter in your case.

Can some of you chime in who have read this book or have used this diagnosis of BPD to your advantage in divorce proceedings? He is turning into a monster or rather showing his true nature is more like it. The mask is off and he continues to Lie and Blame.

Expect judges (if it comes to that) to be largely ignorant about mental illness, especially BPD. So if you lionize a mental illness, then it can appear that you are stigmatizing the person for having a disorder. What Eddy suggests, from what I remember, is that you focus on how the pattern of his behavior impacted you, more than the diagnosis.

How does your L expect the diagnosis will give you an advantage?

I'm trying to imagine how my L would respond if the opposing counsel accused me of knowing that my ex had a mental illness prior to marriage. I think she would say, "Objection, your honor. Opposing counsel is using hearsay, and does not have special knowledge of what my client thought or knew prior to the marriage. Nor is that information of any consequence to the matter of xyz."

Is your L thinking that the BPD diagnosis will help explain the false allegations (lies + blame) and motions for contempt that he is filing?

[Panda39]

If your lawyer has a strategy based around his mental illness then great, but you can still get the message across without naming/labeling it. There is more than one way to skin a cat so to speak.

In my SO's case his ex was/is undiagnosed, he was successful during his divorce just describing and documenting her dysfunctional behaviors/neglectful behaviors and how they affected their children.  There was no need to name/label because of her own behaviors she lost majority custody of her daughters.

Panda39

[ForeverDad]

Please make copies of that diagnosis paperwork.  Keep the copies in separate but safe places.  Important documents often disappear when a disordered person is involved.

I don't know how important a revealed diagnosis would be in your case.  Maybe little, maybe a lot.  Most of us here never managed to get the courts, evaluators and other professionals around the court to seek a diagnosis.  The general conclusion is that (1) a single diagnosis can mean varying impact depending on the extent of the person's behaviors and (2) courts don't try to fix people since they deal with them as they are.  However, with a known diagnosis and detailing his behavior patterns, you may convince the professionals to tie the two together.

In most divorces described here, mine too, we never got a diagnosis.  But once we figured out where the courts and other professionals placed their focus (on behaviors and behavior patterns) then we were able to make slow but steady progress despite our spouses' obstructions and delays.

A problem you may face is that courts assume the conflict and obstructions are only short term and will fade away once the divorce is past.  Only one of you is reasonably normal, it takes two to get it done without fuss.  One difficult task for you and your lawyer is to convince the court that additional time waiting for your ex's cooperation is wasted time and money.  My divorce lasted almost two years due to her delays, allegations, not providing data and having to comply with every item on the court's checklist.

[Return2Wholeness]

Thank you all so much for responding and for your support.

We do have a daughter she is 13 now. His behaviour has been erratic and the loops he jumped through to cover up his affairs is beyond manipulative, it's criminal. Financial issues aside, because you know that's going to be the case in a lot of divorces what he did to my daughter is unforgivable. She chose to stop contact with him (she was 12) on her own because he manipulated her into lying for him to cover up his affair. When I discovered the truth I approached her after a month or so of knewing something was "off" she told me everything. I immediately started her in counseling.

There are a lot of details I'm leaving out because this post would just be too long. In mediation I explained the whole thing and it was suggested he go to counseling WITH my daughter to help her heal from this trauma and distrust she had due to his actions. Instead he blamed HER and ME and wouldn't take responsiblity. Fast forward to the temp orders he was Ordered to take her to counseling once again before visitations were granted. He didn't comply and now has filed alienation charges against me. We have court again today to go over the contempt charges as well as my lawyers responses. His behaviour is being documented, not sure how my L is planning on using the diagnosis yet it wont' be today though.

It's been a year since the day he came come demanding a divorce, I am healing steadily but it's still kicks me in the stomach every once in a while. I never knew this person, he is a monster. In my dreams he shows up and it's like he used to be, though things were definitely not perfect we had our moments that felt real and like our family mattered to him. Now it's all like a bad dream and that's the part I'm struggling with along with the financial mess he has made for me.

[formflier]

Return2Wholeness,

I want to commend you for taking strong action to protect your daughter and help her heal...   No adult should face the kind of betrayal in your life... .let along a child.

OK... .the picture seems a bit more clear, a few things that I want to make sure I(we) have right.

Daughter doesn't "want" to see her Dad and at the moment Dad has been given a "pathway" to resume visitation (by going to counseling) and Dad has not "complied" or "done the action the courts have laid out for him to gain visitation.

Did I say that right? 


Is there any doubt or lack of documentation about his failure to attend the counseling the courts ordered? 


If you go back up to prior posts, you will see a focus on "behavior" vice the diagnosis.  Do you see what  is meant by that?  More important to document that the behavior (ordered by the court it appears) has not been correct than to explain why (with a diagnosis)

That being said, I think I may be able to imagine a strategy your L may be considering.  Since she knows about the abhorrent behavior she now may be able to "explain" that behavior and make a more "precise" hoop that the Dad would have to "jump through" in order to begin visitation.

Perhaps instead of "attend" counseling the wording can be changed to "comply" with counseling over a certain period of time.  Perhaps also a certification by a psychiatrist that he is compliant with meds and treatment recommendations other than counseling.

Again... .I want to stress how good it is that YOU got your daughter into counseling.  Does your L have the documentation to prove it was YOU getting your daughter into counseling?

   

FF

[ForeverDad]

H has been ordered to go with D13 to counseling?  Is she comfortable with that?  Is it clear that he's not in charge of such sessions?  My only concern is if he would use it to manipulate or give more disinformation.  For that reason, if his refusal to go to therapy with her ends up minimizing or delaying his visitation, let that be the case.  He's an adult, let him wear his big boy pants.  You now know you can't change him or rescue him, so deal with him as he is not as you, your daughter or the court want him to be.  Let Go of, and Move On from, your expectations that he will stop his Denial, Blaming, Blame Shifting, face his issues or improve his behaviors.  Maybe some distant day he will but at this point he's not.

Are you in counseling too?  That's good for you too.  We don't want to be the only ones giving you objective observations and strategies.

Validation is important, that is, proper validation.  When your daughter expresses her observations, concerns and dilemmas then you need to be careful not to gloss over stuff just to make everything cozy.  If she has observations, validate them or guide her to a better perspective.  If she has concerns, help her to work on formulating pathways to solutions on her own.  That's preparing herself for adulthood, fortunately she has years to practice.  In other words, train her to use her deductive powers and become comfortable facing issues and addressing them in healthy proactive ways.  I bet that's what the counselor is doing, guiding and helping her to be informed, aware and empowered.

[Return2Wholeness]

Return2Wholeness,


Daughter doesn't "want" to see her Dad and at the moment Dad has been given a "pathway" to resume visitation (by going to counseling) and Dad has not "complied" or "done the action the courts have laid out for him to gain visitation.

Did I say that right?  




Is there any doubt or lack of documentation about his failure to attend the counseling the courts ordered?  



If you go back up to prior posts, you will see a focus on "behavior" vice the diagnosis.  :)o you see what  is meant by that?  More important to document that the behavior (ordered by the court it appears) has not been correct than to explain why (with a diagnosis)

YES! This makes a lot of sense thank you.


Again... .I want to stress how good it is that YOU got your daughter into counseling.  :)oes your L have the documentation to prove it was YOU getting your daughter into counseling?



   

FF

Yes this is correct. Last week he was on a mission to create a paper trail, he has a new aggressive attorney and is trying to get "answers out of me" to incrimanate me. One which he suddenly wants my daughter's counselor's email. Following my lawer's advice even though I didn't want to respond, because he can easily contact him he has the info, I reminded him he was given the information but here is the phone number again. He also demanded to know what I planned to do to encourage unification between him and my daughter. I simply stated "Following Court Orders" again he's trying to show I am the one alienating their relationship when this is not the case.

He did go to 1 session with her right after mediation and it was not what he wanted. She cried and wouldn't look at him, wouldn't talk to him, she wasn't ready to see him but the court issued their order so we had to comply. After that, he demanded I stop bringing her to counseling which of course I did not. The court granted that she continue to see her own counselor and HE choose the Unification counselor who is supposed to talk with my daughter's counselor as well. I am concerned about him trying to manipulate the unification counseling sessions but my daughter is getting stronger and she will call him out on it if needed in the safety of another adult. She is still fearful of being alone with him and having been manipulated by him in the past, is on high alert of this happening again.

No lack of documentation, we are supposed to correspond by email because of the "discord" between us. He has made zero effort. I email him weekly summaries of what she has done for the week and he never replies.

Yes it's clear I iniitiated her counseling after finding out about his affair and that he used my daughter to lie for him.

[Return2Wholeness]

H has been ordered to go with D13 to counseling?  Is she comfortable with that?  Is it clear that he's not in charge of such sessions?  My only concern is if he would use it to manipulate or give more disinformation.  For that reason, if his refusal to go to therapy with her ends up minimizing or delaying his visitation, let that be the case.  He's an adult, let him wear his big boy pants.  You now know you can't change him or rescue him, so deal with him as he is not as you, your daughter or the court want him to be.  Let Go of, and Move On from, your expectations that he will stop his Denial, Blaming, Blame Shifting, face his issues or improve his behaviors.  Maybe some distant day he will but at this point he's not.

Are you in counseling too?  That's good for you too.  We don't want to be the only ones giving you objective observations and strategies.

Validation is important, that is, proper validation.  When your daughter expresses her observations, concerns and dilemmas then you need to be careful not to gloss over stuff just to make everything cozy.  If she has observations, validate them or guide her to a better perspective.  If she has concerns, help her to work on formulating pathways to solutions on her own.  That's preparing herself for adulthood, fortunately she has years to practice.  In other words, train her to use her deductive powers and become comfortable facing issues and addressing them in healthy proactive ways.  I bet that's what the counselor is doing, guiding and helping her to be informed, aware and empowered.

Yes I am in counseling as well. All very good advice and I agree 100% I will have to do some research on D13 counseling the court just said "Unification Counseling". Her counselor is definitley empowering her and my daugther and I have talked about his behaviour. It's tricky because I don't want to be blamed for influencing her decisions so I definitely try to guide her as best I can. So it's a delicate balance of not just glossing over but also not underestimating the behaviour. Her counselor has talked to her about the behaviour and how she can respond and avoid being manipulated which he is a master of. She realizes this now, she has also said he he has changed into a person she doesn't particulary like when he was around his new GF and her kids. The whole situation made her very uncomfortable and understandly so! You can't just throw her into his new family, it's unreasonably demanding on her emotions. He of course didn't see it this way. He felt because she already "knew" this woman (she was MY FRIEND!) that the transition is nothing to be concerned with. Can you imagine? Yes she knew her in a different context and this new one is disturbing... .She tried to voice her concerns to him at one point saying she was having second thoughts about the divorce and his GF. That didn't go over well, he screamed at her to the point of her being afraid of him. 1 wk later she stopped contact with him.

[formflier]

Do you have his "demands" to not bring your daughter to counseling in email... .or did he only tell you that verbally?

Do you have a recorder on your phone?

Sounds like you are doing a good job following your Ls lead... .keep that up.

FF

[livednlearned]

Last week he was on a mission to create a paper trail, he has a new aggressive attorney and is trying to get "answers out of me" to incrimanate me. One which he suddenly wants my daughter's counselor's email. Following my lawer's advice even though I didn't want to respond, because he can easily contact him he has the info, I reminded him he was given the information but here is the phone number again

This is so eerily similar to how my ex behaved, too. He would accuse me of alienating S16 (9 at the time), but it was more like complaining that I didn't give him directions to the counselor's office. For a while, I did what I could to make it easy for him, but he just kept complaining. I think ex began to see me as his mother or something.

He also demanded to know what I planned to do to encourage unification between him and my daughter. I simply stated "Following Court Orders" again he's trying to show I am the one alienating their relationship when this is not the case.

Following court orders is an excellent response! Eventually, you won't feel the need to respond at all.

He is essentially saying, "How are you going to cater to my every need?"

To which the response may as well be the silence in his own mind.  

He did go to 1 session with her right after mediation and it was not what he wanted. She cried and wouldn't look at him, wouldn't talk to him, she wasn't ready to see him but the court issued their order so we had to comply. After that, he demanded I stop bringing her to counseling which of course I did not. The court granted that she continue to see her own counselor and HE choose the Unification counselor who is supposed to talk with my daughter's counselor as well. I am concerned about him trying to manipulate the unification counseling sessions but my daughter is getting stronger and she will call him out on it if needed in the safety of another adult. She is still fearful of being alone with him and having been manipulated by him in the past, is on high alert of this happening again.

My ex was also allowed to make selections, but I think he preferred to complain about my choices. So, despite his tantrums, he never did anything proactive.

People with BPD have a hard time solving their own problems, especially when dysregulated. Probably true for anyone experiencing a lot of emotional distress. I just never saw anything but this weird kind of man-baby helplessness with N/BPDx when it came to healing his relationship with S16.

No lack of documentation, we are supposed to correspond by email because of the "discord" between us. He has made zero effort. I email him weekly summaries of what she has done for the week and he never replies.

The absence of doing this is not alienation. If your L says to do this, then by all means go ahead and continue.

But your job is to take care of yourself and your daughter, and if these summaries contribute to a lack of emotional safety, it's ok to put your/her needs first.

Yes it's clear I iniitiated her counseling after finding out about his affair and that he used my daughter to lie for him.

It was smart and wise and loving to do so.

A few times I would repeat something along the lines of, "It's my job to keep you safe." My L gave me some phrases that were also helpful to say to S16. "What you are describing does not sound emotionally safe. Do you feel comfortable talking about this with your T?"

One thing about the counseling that I'm working through now... .I kinda wish S16 and I did more family counseling back when he was younger. I can now see just how traumatizing it was, but in a way I underestimated it at the time. S16 has a combination of genetics and trauma, so maybe it's harder for him because of the one-two punch.

I only mention this because N/BPDx did a lot of damage around the counseling stuff, including various diagnoses that S16 received. It created some distance between S16 and I that we never got to address together. I'm not sure what N/BPDx said exactly.

I wish that we could discuss some of the stuff that happened since it was both of us going through it together, and S16 might have felt less lonely if we did some counseling together.

[david]

So you send an email every week and get no reply. Can he recall anything in those emails ? The fact that you send them and he does not recall anything in them may be something your atty can explore in court if that is the case. He can complain about anything he wants but when you give him weekly updates and he does nothing and knows nothing he clearly has no real interest. Not sure if I am explaining myself well. It goes to his behaviors instead of simply a diagnosis.

[ForeverDad]

Children typically don't want to be put in the middle or forced to decide between parents.  That's what counselors are to figure out and then provide input to the custody evaluator or GAL who then make recommendations to the court.

When my son was 11 years old and I already had full custody but I was back in court again seeking majority time, her lawyer filed for him to have an in camera interview with the magistrate.  Court staff was amazing, they scheduled the interview on a school day during my parenting time.  GAL and magistrate met with him.  Details were never divulged but the court in its ruling did note that when discussing mother the child had less eye contact and when discussing father was more relaxed.

[david]

I had a custody eval. The evaluator talked to both boys by themselves. A week later he had ex and I together in a meeting. He wanted to talk about what the boys discussed with him. He got into no specifics. He did say that both boys said they loved each of their parents. The evaluator asked the boys about a typical day at their moms' and a typical day at their dads'. That was where the evaluator concentrated on for quite some time. When describing a day at their moms' neither boy ever mentioned their mom. When describing a day at their dads' they had me in their conversations. Our boys talked to me like that a lot when talking to me about being at their moms'. It never sunk into my head until sitting in that meeting how things were at ex's place. It's the behaviors that the courts, evaluators, counselors are looking for/at to make their decisions. The behaviors are a result of the disorder so you need more than a diagnosis to convince the courts.