Hello, and please help

[Depression = 72% of members]

Hello,

I am in my late 30's, with two beautiful kids, and currently almost 2 years into into a journey of learning and understanding that my lifetime of walking on eggshells and dealing with co-dependent thoughts are in fact not normal. While it would take a book to truly introduce my story, the bottom line is my mom is one of the kindest, sweetest people I know and yet is managing to control and tear me apart. My extended family is 100% enmeshed, so aside from my wife and friends I am utterly alone in the matter. After a recent 5 hour over-the-phone brawl with me vs them, I paid a visit to my counselor, who suggested my mom's behavior is consistent with BPD. After doing a little searching, it seems to hit the nail on the head. And yet I know I have to keep that to myself, lest I bring the full fury of hellfire and brimstone back on myself for the mere idea, much lest the renewed shame of being "soft" for going to see a therapist.

In all this I'm trying to shield my family. My wife currently just doesn't want to see them again, which I intend to honor, but it breaks my heart when I think about this situation in the context of my kids. My mom continually reminds me that my kids are the ones who lose in this. And that's something we can agree on, but obviously its MY fault. I'm currently bracing myself for the fallout of them finding out that after the 5 hour "Coming to Jesus" meeting, as they put it, I don't intend to bring my family down during the holidays. So as I wait with nerves high, I found this support group and thought maybe it might help. I'm trying to stay strong in taking control of my life and not be baited by shame, humiliation, or a casual 180 degree change in attitude with no acknowledgement of what happened.

I love my extended family completely, and want them in my children's lives. But the other day showed me just how easy it is to get on my mom's bad side (she's great until she receives a perceived offense), and how easy it is for my siblings to rush to her house so they can all tell me how wrong I am about something. While I know there is conflict and argument in families, there's something wrong when only one side is taking culpability for anything, and I'm supposed to just accept it because we are family and love each other no matter what. Yes, I love them no matter what, but that does not give license to berate, mock, and attempt to humiliate me, and literally minutes later casually tell a "funny story" in a neck-breaking change of pace, just to flip the switch again minutes later back to the mocking. And also continuing to remind me what a great and trauma free childhood I had, despite me never suggesting otherwise.

Anyway, I don't mean to sound whiney, just not sure where to really start here. Hoping this community will be able to help me moving forward!

[ProudDad12]

Hello,

I am in my late 30's, with two beautiful kids, and currently almost 2 years into into a journey of learning and understanding that my lifetime of walking on eggshells and dealing with co-dependent thoughts are in fact not normal. While it would take a book to truly introduce my story, the bottom line is my mom is one of the kindest, sweetest people I know and yet is managing to control and tear me apart. My extended family is 100% enmeshed, so aside from my wife and friends I am utterly alone in the matter. After a recent 5 hour over-the-phone brawl with me vs them, I paid a visit to my counselor, who suggested my mom's behavior is consistent with BPD. After doing a little searching, it seems to hit the nail on the head. And yet I know I have to keep that to myself, lest I bring the full fury of hellfire and brimstone back on myself for the mere idea, much lest the renewed shame of being "soft" for going to see a therapist.

In all this I'm trying to shield my family. My wife currently just doesn't want to see them again, which I intend to honor, but it breaks my heart when I think about this situation in the context of my kids. My mom continually reminds me that my kids are the ones who lose in this. And that's something we can agree on, but obviously its MY fault. I'm currently bracing myself for the fallout of them finding out that after the 5 hour "Coming to Jesus" meeting, as they put it, I don't intend to bring my family down during the holidays. So as I wait with nerves high, I found this support group and thought maybe it might help. I'm trying to stay strong in taking control of my life and not be baited by shame, humiliation, or a casual 180 degree change in attitude with no acknowledgement of what happened.

I love my extended family completely, and want them in my children's lives. But the other day showed me just how easy it is to get on my mom's bad side (she's great until she receives a perceived offense), and how easy it is for my siblings to rush to her house so they can all tell me how wrong I am about something. While I know there is conflict and argument in families, there's something wrong when only one side is taking culpability for anything, and I'm supposed to just accept it because we are family and love each other no matter what. Yes, I love them no matter what, but that does not give license to berate, mock, and attempt to humiliate me, and literally minutes later casually tell a "funny story" in a neck-breaking change of pace, just to flip the switch again minutes later back to the mocking. And also continuing to remind me what a great and trauma free childhood I had, despite me never suggesting otherwise.

Anyway, I don't mean to sound whiney, just not sure where to really start here. Hoping this community will be able to help me moving forward!

[ProudDad12]

So just thought about another important aspect to this. One of the tools used against me is the suggestion that I am reaping what I sow, in that karma will eventually come back to bite me and my own children will treat me in the awful ways I'm treating my innocent mom. It's HARD hearing that. And when everyone is 100% behind this (due to the enmeshment, I guess), it really makes me doubt and question myself. In fact, if I didn't have my wife and friends behind me, as well as my therapist who knows my story, I would be convinced that I am 100% wrong and have to go back on my knees in remorse.

And another aspect... .I come from a small town where everyone knows each other. And my extended family was always the "picture perfect" family that everyone likes and respects. I don't know how many times I've heard how wonderful, kind, generous, etc. various members of my family are. And I agree, they're great. But it sure makes it difficult when I deal with a bad side that is kept from the outside world. Side effect of this is the wrath that is brought down on me whenever my mom finds out that I've confided in friends on family issues. Heck, she's even threatened to call my friends and ask questions. I kinda wish she would, she might overplay her hand.

[Panda39]

Hi ProudDad12,

Welcome to the BPD Family 

It sounds like you've hit on a very important tool... .boundaries.

It sounds like you and your wife are setting boundaries by not attending Christmas with an emotionally/verbally abusive family member, that sounds very healthy indeed.  You are protecting yourself, your wife and children from that abuse. 

More on boundaries... .
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=61684.0
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=167368.0

In all this I'm trying to shield my family. My wife currently just doesn't want to see them again, which I intend to honor, but it breaks my heart when I think about this situation in the context of my kids. My mom continually reminds me that my kids are the ones who lose in this.

The above comment sounds like what we call FOG (Fear, Obligation, Guilt) or emotional blackmail. FOG is often used by folks with BPD/BPD traits to get others to do what they want.

I would argue that your kids will also lose being exposed to verbal abuse... .there is more than one way to look at things.

More on FOG... .
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=82926.0

I also wanted to share some books on BPD that you might find helpful... .

2 books that I particularly liked on BPD in General... .
   
Overcoming Borderline Personality Disorder: A Family Guide for Healing and Change by Valerie Porr
 
and
   
Stop Walking on Eggshells: Taking Your Life Back When Someone You Care About Has Borderline Personality Disorder by Paul Mason MS and Randi Kreger

One book on BPD Mothers in particular... .
Understanding the Borderline Mother: Helping Her Children Transcend the Intense, Unpredictable, and Volatile Relationship by Christine Ann Lawson

I've got to run but I'm glad you've decided to join us and know you will find this site and the members here as helpful and understanding as I have.  I know others will be along to add their comments and insights.

Enjoy your Christmas with your wife and kids     

Panda39

[ProudDad12]

Thanks, FOG definitely sounds about right. I'm actually bracing myself for the next phase of it. Last time I was "out of line" a year and a half back (and subsequently took a break from them) my days were interrupted by text from my dad telling me about how my mom was in the bathroom wailing (and telling me "good job", and other times telling me how he was ashamed of me. And I would get a call from my brother telling me how he went to their house and she as sobbing on the couch and told me to end the nonsense. In that incident that was actually what broke me, because until that point I thought I could count on my brother to not get sucked in. Or at least not encourage it against me.

Point is they are very good at telling me about how bad of shape my mom is in and put the blame and onus for repair 100% on me. I've even been told they would never forgive me if she had a heart attack.

As far as my kids and verbal/emotional abuse, so far they haven't experience it, at least as far as I know. I myself don't really see a clear pattern when I look back on my childhood, but I might not be remembering well. I do know I show most of the signs now. And I suppose emotional abuse isn't as easy to recognize... .

Thanks for the book recommendations, I actually picked up the Eggshells one last night at the recommendation of a friend. Hope to get into it today.

[GaGrl]

After Eggshells, you might want to look at Understanding the Borderline Mother... .the BPD types of Queen, Witch, Waif and Hermit could help you see how the traits come through in your mother. She sounds as if she might be waifish, which can make a lot of manipulative behavior.

[ProudDad12]

Thanks, I'll check that one out too. I just googled Waif, and holy crap, that sounded familiar. I'd say Waif and Queen are almost spot on, minus the facts that I never felt neglected and she values her friends and doesn't discard them. So does it seem like BPD is pretty much a given here, and not that I'm just being sensitive or reading too much into things because I learned a new word?

Another question, and perhaps I just need to be patient as I read, but how is it that my siblings are completely oblivious and I'm the sole black sheep in this? That really make me question myself. My wife and I guess it's because I married someone so different than expectations (I come from a deep Southern family and married a Jersey Girl!), and both my siblings married more or less minded people. So while my wife had been questioning things for years (to which I stubbornly denied or rejected for a long time), my siblings don't have anyone calling attention to it, other than their big brother going nuts and rebelling. Though I'm sure my mom suspects my wife too, seeing as she accused her of trying to break up our perfect family.

[Panda39]

Last time I was "out of line" a year and a half back (and subsequently took a break from them) my days were interrupted by text from my dad telling me about how my mom was in the bathroom wailing (and telling me "good job", and other times telling me how he was ashamed of me. And I would get a call from my brother telling me how he went to their house and she as sobbing on the couch and told me to end the nonsense. In that incident that was actually what broke me, because until that point I thought I could count on my brother to not get sucked in. Or at least not encourage it against me.

Besides the FOG the above, sounds like a lot of Triangulation, each person on the triangle plays a role and those roles can move around the triangle.

What you describe above (your mom's perception) your mom is the victim, you are the persecutor, and your dad/brother are the rescuers.  Your mom has pulled them into a disagreement between the two of you, that should be only between the two of you. Try and stay off the triangle if you can. 

More on the Karpman Drama Triangle... .
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=108440.0

It sounds like your dad, is probably trying to de-escalate the drama and pacify your mom and make his own life more comfortable... .It's not for nothing that the book title is "stop walking on eggshells".  Everyone spends all their time, energy, and attention on the person with BPD trying not to rock the boat.  By setting boundaries you are rocking the boat, you are not playing the role of "go along to get along" that everyone else is playing and your whole family is pushing, pressuring you to go back into that role... .into the status quo, back to the role that they are comfortable with... .into a role that you are uncomfortable with.

Another question, and perhaps I just need to be patient as I read, but how is it that my siblings are completely oblivious and I'm the sole black sheep in this?

I doubt your siblings are oblivious most likely they don't want to buck the system, it's easier to go with the flow, go with the loudest, most dominant personality... .no one likes conflict or rage.  The problem with that is their own desires and needs and emotional wellbeing are put aside to meet the needs of your mother.

In a BPD Family there is often a "Golden Child" and a "Scapegoat" it sounds like you might be the later. The Golden Child/Scapegoat is another way to describe splitting.

Splitting

Splitting refers to a primitive defense mechanism characterized by a polarization of good feelings and bad feelings, of love and hate, of attachment and rejection. We often talk of being painted black or painted white by our pwBPD.

More on splitting... .
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=62033.0

My wife and I guess it's because I married someone so different than expectations (I come from a deep Southern family and married a Jersey Girl!), and both my siblings married more or less minded people. So while my wife had been questioning things for years (to which I stubbornly denied or rejected for a long time), my siblings don't have anyone calling attention to it, other than their big brother going nuts and rebelling. Though I'm sure my mom suspects my wife too, seeing as she accused her of trying to break up our perfect family.

Your wife sounds awesome, it sound like you have chosen well.  She as an outsider is able to see the dysfunction that is going on around your mom.  Frankly, her gut instincts to minimize contact and drama I think are good.

This does not mean that you never see your family again but to make it work for your nuclear family you will need to set boundaries that work for you and not be afraid to enforce them.

5 hour "Coming to Jesus" meeting, as they put it, I don't intend to bring my family down during the holidays

Was this a 5 hour phone call they had with you, or a discussion they had before contacting you?

Panda39

[ProudDad12]

Thanks, that all makes a lot of sense, and really helps me not only get my mind around this but also to help hold my footing.

Your wife sounds awesome, it sound like you have chosen well.  She as an outsider is able to see the dysfunction that is going on around your mom.  Frankly, her gut instincts to minimize contact and drama I think are good.

Thanks again, and I agree! I'm ashamed it took me this long to see what she's being trying to show me. We're really good together, and I'd say about 95% of our arguments revolve around my family in one way or another. I'm blessed to have her and have thanked her for sticking by me during my naivety, and being patient with me as I learn.

Was this a 5 hour phone call they had with you, or a discussion they had before contacting you?

I'm embarrassed to say the phone call was 5 hours. It started with a call from my mom after she got angry at something I said (in fairness, I could have used a lot more tact, but her response was very disproportionate), and early on my siblings came over from their houses to be on speaker phone since my mom was so upset. I was an idiot to stay on so long, especially since they really didn't care to hear what I had to say, but I'm both stubborn and an engineer with a "fix it" mentality. Once again my wife, to her credit, tried to get me off the phone but I was emotionally sucked in by then. I'm going to try my best to make my next communication very brief. Basically to say I don't like what happened, and I need some space. I don't expect it to go well and have been urged by my therapist to ignore and not respond to the fallout. It's gonna be tough!

[Notwendy]

Welcome Proud Dad,

I have experienced some of this with my BPD mother and her extended family. I think it would also help you to learn about "family systems". Families with dysfunctional family members tend to "balance" the system with each member taking on a role. When one member changes his/her behavior - it disrupts the system- and a reaction is to try to bring the family member back in to re-balance. If this doesn't happen then the choice is for the other family members to either change as well, or to expel the family member who they see as causing the problems.

That is the sad possibility that we face. It is tough to be in this position. The sadder choice to me was to continue being a doormat for my mother in order to gain approval from her family and my father. My father is deceased and I loved him very much and wanted his approval. However, this was contingent on accepting abusive behavior from my mother and not protecting my children from her.

I didn't go NC with my parents but I started to have boundaries with my mother. This didn't go well with her as you can imagine. I didn't have 5 hour phone calls, but e mails from my mother's relatives " your mother is wonderful" and a discussion among them that I was the one with the issues, not her.

One email from my father said " I just want us to be a happy family again". I realized that this had nothing to do with me being happy. They didn't even know if I was happy or not.   The definition of "happy family" was if my mother was happy.

I had my own family to care for at this time and needed to be the best mom to my kids.

A couple of lessons from this transition for me that may help you. First of all, I was naive to BPD and family systems as well as the Karpman Triangle. As you can imagine, I became the "persecutor" to my mother (victim) and the family members ( mainly my father) stepped in to "rescue" her. I think you see this pattern in your family. Spend some time reading and learning before you react. Be careful about ultimatums- like not seeing them again- until you are better skilled at relating to them unless you are certain you are done with the relationship. Gradually decreasing the time spent in contact with them might be less dramatic.

Not understanding these ideas, I took a lot of the reaction personally and felt very hurt at the time. I also reacted and said things that I may not have said if I knew more. But we only do the best we can with what we know.

I loved my extended family, but in my case, I could not have both. My mother's FOO is estranged from me. My mother controlled my father's relationship with me. My mother has people on "her side" or "not her side". If I was not on "her side" then they could not have a relationship with both of us. I had to accept that if I have choices, so do they- and they are free to make their choices.

This was part of a larger personal journey for me. I realized that my own co-dependent behaviors that were considered normal in my family- and even desirable- the more of a doormat I was - the more I people pleased and desperately wanted approval from them- the happier they seemed to be. Yet, I was not happy. I didn't even know who I was- I was so used to being what other people wanted me to be. Through counseling and 12 step co-dependency groups, I worked on that.

One aspect I worked on is my own reactivity. I am still in contact with my mother. Our relationship is not close, but she doesn't trigger me as much, I can stay calmer. I also am a better parent and spouse because if this.

This journey is not all about your mother or your family. It's about your own personal growth.

[ProudDad12]

Thank you. I'm definitely trying to focus on myself, mostly in the form of not letting my guilt overwhelm me and consume my thoughts. I've had to work very hard at keeping myself "mentally present" around my kids this week.

Ironically, I've been gradually decreasing time with my extended family over the past year and a half, and that was a large portion of their fuel in the 5 hour gang-up session. A couple of summers back, we had an incident that finally let me to getting help, and that's when i learned about co-dependency. Since then I've been trying to improve. I haven't been outright avoiding my family, but I don't come anywhere near making a point to go to see them "every 3 weeks" as my mom loves to remind me they did when we were kids (they live 2 hours away). This combined with us having our second child earlier this year, we were really hoping they would take on the onus of coming to see us more. But our decreased trips to my hometown, combined with us working to establish boundaries, has been brewing anger on their side, and they proceeded to tell us over and over again how there has been a "pattern" of us putting them lower on the priority list and how we respect my wife's family more (point of note, we moved to place that is only 2 hours from my family, but 16 hours from my wife's. My in-laws have been nothing but supportive about it and have not complained once. A contrast I'm quite jealous of).  I told them multiple times that we aren't prioritizing any set of parents, but made it clear (at last to a normal person who would listen) that my wife and kids are MY priority.

I do see roles being played as you mentioned, with my dad a protector, my brother a bull, and my sister a comforter (she's actually alluded to all the time she's had to go comfort my mom over my actions).

I really hope I don't come across as needy here, listening to everyone really helps and gives me a place to channel and attempt to address my guilt and frustration.

[Notwendy]

This whole board is here to be supportive, so you are not needy- you are like all of us, learning to deal with our families. Some of us have been on your path and are glad to help you and others- and we are still learning ourselves. Since I am in contact with my BPDmother, I am also constantly learning.

Honestly, as a mother myself, these stages of separation are not easy- but they are normal and exactly what we want- for our children to grow up, and establish their own homes and families. Of course, as a mom, I want my kids to remain in contact with me when this happens and hope they will visit often- yet also understand that their future spouses and children will be their first priority. These feelings don't just start at marriage- moms are crying on the first day of kindergarten, and each step - leaving for college, and also we are happy too. This is exactly what we want for our children- to be self sufficient and happy adults. Parents in emotionally healthy families want what is best for their children and are able to manage their own emotions through the stages children go through to get there.

Parents with PD's see their children as extensions of themselves. If they have uncomfortable feelings, they don't see this as their own empty nest feelings but the child as a cause and the child as responsible for their feelings. They do not have the boundary between what is them and what is someone else. They see the child's role as making them happy, not to pursue their own happiness.

What you are doing- putting your life, and your wife and children as your main priority is the right thing to do in the developmental sense. Of course this can also include a loving and emotionally healthy relationship with your parents- however, your parent has a disorder. She isn't able to manage her own empty nest feelings. She is taking victim perspective and sees you as the cause and something you need to fix. Your extended family is stepping in as rescuers, because this is "normal" in your family and "normal to them".

You are the one who is changing and learning better relationship skills, and boundaries but your FOO is not. They will react as they know how to do.

[ProudDad12]

Thank you.

They see the child's role as making them happy, not to pursue their own happiness.

This is definitely true, and if there's anything I feel the need to protect my children from it's this. I've been told multiple times how my daughter is my mom's happy place, and without remembering the specific words or phrases used, it really sounds like my daughter is an emotional anchor for her, and someone who brought her out of a dark place in her life. She says they have an "old soul" connection from the moment she saw her. I don't know what to do or say about that. I love that my children make my parents happy, but the extent or nature of it just doesn't seem to be healthy for my child. And I can't really put my finger on it. It just seems like a lot of responsibility for a child, even if the child isn't aware of what's going on.

My mom is very quick to talk about how being a mom is her "profession" and raising us was her job in life. I've seen efforts on her part to try taking care of herself in recent years, but I still feel like her children are unhealthily tied to her emotional well being. Heck, my sister is even in on it, saying she loves my daughter so much she feels like she birthed her. My wife didn't take that one very well.

So update on my current situation, my sister texted us a casual text this morning. I guess maybe fishing to see if we've moved on? No clue how to react. If I ignore then it will stir up more drama. If I respond, even with a "haha", I'm sending the message I'm OK. Leaning towards ignoring. This is complicated by the fact I have to meet her tomorrow with my parents' large joint Christmas present that's been sitting at my house. Pretty anxious about that. I'll say my feelings towards her are softer than the rest right now, since while she dished out her share, see appeared to make the only efforts in letting me talk during the 5 hour dragout (I typically would be over-shouted 5 words into anything I said). But I'm still anxious about being face to face, and what surprises I may be in for.

[Panda39]

Thanks again, and I agree! I'm ashamed it took me this long to see what she's being trying to show me.

You were raised in the dysfunction, it takes time to see the situation from a new angle, don't beat yourself up.

I've been on these boards for about 4 years and know the tools, know the disorder, know the dysfunction. 

Two years ago I got a new boss, who felt off to me but I blamed myself... .I was being ridiculous, or insecure, or was making a mountain out of a mole hill.  Things with her kept escalating until one weekend I had an epiphany... .I was seeing all of the dysfunctional behaviors that I talk about on these boards... .FOG, Gaslighting, Blame shifting, Double Binds, using my department staff as weapons against her boss to get things she wanted (just like my SO's ex did with their daughters during their divorce).  I also saw her needing to be the center of attention a 15 minute huddle in the morning grew to an hour and an hour long staff meeting grew to 2 hours... .we the captive audience.  My Boss was demonstrating all the behaviors of a Narcissist!  It took me a year and a half to get it, so even someone in the know can miss it.  I learned how subtle this stuff can be.

So I say again, don't beat yourself up   
 

I'm embarrassed to say the phone call was 5 hours.

I asked because this type of thing is a good place to set a boundary.  It sounds like the phone call became a circular argument these go no where.  A boundary could be when the rescuers jump it it's time to end the call, or maybe even earlier if mom's emotions are escalating.  Something to think about so you have a plan ahead of time. 

Somethings to be aware of... .is this discussion going anywhere?  Is it escalating? Is it constructive to continue right now? Have others become involved (am I on the Triangle)? Is it better to continue this discussion later when everyone isn't so emotionally escalated?

More on handling inappropriate phone calls... .
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=137370.0

I want to share another tool... .JADE (Justify, Argue, Defend, Explain) try not to JADE.  This might be hard and awkward/uncomfortable and take practice.  JADE is what leads to those never ending circular arguments. JADE feeds the drama.  Mom/Family we've (you/your family) have decided to do Christmas at home this year.  You guys decided that is what you want to do, you don't need to Justify it, you don't need to argue with them about it, you are an adult and this is your family you do not have to Defend the decision, and you don't need to Explain why... .this is just what we decided to do this year.  Do you see how making the statement with no Jade gives nothing to latch on to and argue about?

JADE... .
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=139972.0

Arguments... .
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=106107.0
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=92025.0
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=118892.0

Panda39

[ProudDad12]

Well the frustration continues. Had to meet my sister Sunday to hand off my parents'  large Christmas present that had been at our house. I let myself get fall into a discussion about the fallout. What's frustrating about that is they truly don't see how or why we have a problem with anything, and amazed that we aren't embracing the fact that we have this great family and how lucky we are.

Then yesterday my mom reaches out to me via text, saying she loves me, she's tried her best, she doesn't understand why it seems so easy for other grandparents, etc. She even offered to start going to therapy with us. She also talked about how she's never been hurt this much, but didn't show any apology for what happened. I responded with I love her too, but need a little space to cool off and reset, and that I would reach out to her after the holidays when I was ready.

So now today I get a text from my dad saying that they intend to respect that, but at some point before Jan 2nd me and him need to meet face to face for a discussion. Isn't that the OPPOSITE of giving me space? Not only do they walk right over boundaries, they do a great job making me feel like I'M THE PROBLEM the whole time.

[Notwendy]

This is exactly the response that is consistent with family systems. Families tend to seek a "balance" when one or more members are dysfunctional. If one person changes their patterns the other members feel a sense of discomfort and try to resume the balance by getting the person to stop their new behavior.

The person who is changing is seen as "the problem". This is part denial and also the fact that you not going along with what is expected of you is making them feel uncomfortable.

I recall the e mail my father sent me" I just want us to be a happy family again". Well sure, my parents were happier when I complied with their wishes, but I wasn't happy. To them, I was causing problems. For me though, it was taking steps to change co-dependent behaviors- a change for the better.

It is sad to think that my attempts to reduce my own dysfunction were seen as making them unhappy. I didn't intentionally do things to make them unhappy but I couldn't control how they perceived me.

Boundaries are not for other people- they are for you. Read about extinction bursts. Your parents will want what they want- it is up to you to stand up for what you want and need- and you can do it respectfully, but they will have their own feelings.

[ProudDad12]

Thanks, I'll read up on that. I THINK we may have finally have hit a place where I can have space for a couple of weeks, but we'll see. My mom acknowledged that she went insane (didn't really feel like an apology though... .), and is adamant that she wants this resolved. She insists that this isn't biblical, that she doesn't understand why we are dealing with this when there are families dealing with cancer, etc. Basically we are a good, loving family and this just isn't normal or necessary.

One saving grace for me mentally was that she was telling me some things they were thinking about our side of things that was so far from reality that I can't even get my mind around how they thought them. So it helps me hang on to the idea that I'm not dealing with normal, healthy thinking. I have my wife and friends telling me as much, but having evidence for my mind to gnaw on helps.

That said, even if they do back away and let me cool off and reset, I'm going to be fighting extreme guilt over the next couple of weeks. Especially Christmas day when I guarantee they break the space and ask to FaceTime my daughter. They make it clear that my mom is doing nothing but crying on her end, and wanting this fixed. I told them I do too, but wanted some space before I come to them with my side of things. Praying nothing drastic happens before then that leaves me with regret the rest of my life.

[Notwendy]

Keep in mind that your parents will have their own ideas about what is "biblical" and what is not. The most important thing is that you get your own ideas about your moral code as they will have theirs.

I struggled with "honor your parents" but I also considered that enabling was not honoring someone. I had to get clear with myself and my own relationship with God about what was honoring them, vs enabling and not valuing the fact that  I too was a creation of God and needed to be my authentic self.

It is hard to have no regrets- people make mistakes. The hard part is that disobeying my mother was seen as a horrible crime. I think I am a good person who sometimes makes mistakes. That is different from a mistake making me a horrible person.

[ProudDad12]

So does anyone have any tips for how to keep my mind from sabotaging myself? After asking for space, I had any emails from my mom to be redirected to a subfolder so I won't see them until I purposely go look. And for the moment they stopped texting/calling.

So now, I'm trying my best to enjoy the time off with my family. And I can't. I'm just not emotionally or mentally present. I obsess over the idea of my mom hurting and not understanding. I dread Christmas day over the idea of her breaking down crying in front of my siblings, and what they may do about it. Or even the idea of her simply asking to FaceTime my daughter. Beyond that, I'm anxious about what the future holds. On one hand my heart breaks at the idea of my wife no longer being a part of interactions with my extended family, and on the other hand I wonder if I should be doing the same, and for my wife's sake feeling guilty that I'm not.

I'm halfway through Stop Walking on Eggshells. I can rationalize out every decision I've made. And yet my mind keeps sabotaging me to the point that I'm struggling real hard to be there for my family. Not only sabotaging me in the ways above but also once again making me wonder if I'm over thinking this and am wrong. Despite being told otherwise by lots of people. Maybe it would be easier if I could look back on my childhood and see a clear pattern of abuse, but I can't (aside from just feeling like i had to be perfect, and that I held a large responsibility for my mom's emotional and physical well being). And yet so many of the BPD and family enmeshment signs line up. It doesn't help that I had a few beers with a friend the other night who knows I'm struggling but hasn't been around long enough to know my story. His early stance was that family is important. But I quickly learned that his parent situation was very different than mine, and his stance on my situation seemed to become more complicated as his understanding of my side widened.

My in-laws have come, which on one hand is a partial distraction, but on the other hand it hurts watching what I'm struggling to have with my own parents. Heck, I even realized I was going through the stages of grief when I caught myself Bargaining the other night ("If I had just worded that text differently, it wouldn't have blown into this and we'd be having a normal Christmas". I think I've moved on to Depression.

I'm praying, reading Eggshells, trying to distract, etc. Hopefully not about to burn my friends out on this. I don't know. At risk of burning you all out too on my story, are these feelings normal?

[Harri]

Hi there and welcome.  I haven't had a chance to introduce myself yet, so hello!

Tips to keep yourself from self-sabotaging:
~  remind yourself that your feelings are perfectly normal and to be expected given the situation.  More specifically, you are now fighting against a lifetime of behaviors that are almost automatic and you will feel very awkward, even wrong, to stand your ground.  Change is uncomfortable, scary, and high anxiety. 

So keep repeating:  My feeling this way is normal and is proof that I am moving into a healthier way of being both with my own family.  It may help with my parents and siblings but the only thing I can change is me.

~ Remind yourself that your siblings and father are still caught up in the dysfunction and will do whatever they can to try to get you back into your own role so that they can be comfortable.  They have not had the insight about the need to change that you have had.  They are doing what they have always done.  Allow them to be who they are during this process.  You will not be able to change them or the situation until they are ready to change, or more accurately, can see the need to change.  This will hurt and may even cause your heart to ache.  Expect it and remind yourself that that too is normal. 

~Remind yourself not to let the emotions of the upcoming holiday and other peoples idea of what family means color your reality.  Your situation is different.  Most people will not understand. 

~  You will never wear us out here on this board.  If you need to talk, post.  Try to keep the best parts of you for your wife and children and bring us your nerves and fears.  Same with your friend.  They can help but it is best to discuss with those who understand and have been there.

You will get through this.

Wishing you and yours peace.   

[Living Life]

Hi Prouddad12,
I have been reading your posts and finding so much of my life in them. My FOO is also from the South, and I married a normal guy from CA. We have had the beauty of distance, which makes the whole drama easier. He has spent much of our married life (50 years), pointing out how crazy and abnormal my family is. The best thing he ever did was take a stand with my nBPDm right before our wedding. She became a little afraid of him, so didn't mess with him like she did with the rest of us.
     My father enabled my mother, we had a hellish childhood. He finally passed away about 6 years ago, and she one year ago. But the drama didn't end. My brother has taken on the role of my mother. I had to put up with her, but I don't have to put with him, so we are now NC.
     I am 72, have had a wonderful life with a professional career, many friends, and a long marriage. Those who don't know my story have no idea of the continuing drama in my family. The crises that set up the events of the past year after my mother's death, was my setting a boundary with her about 10 years ago. In her mind, I 'crossed' her, which led to her hating me  (my brother and SIL knew all about it but not me), and subsequently changing her estate, including my deceased father's, to exclude me. The final secret and betrayal by the 3 of them, as I unknowingly, continue my visits and she accepts and encourages my the visits and the help I give her.
     My lesson: you have to do what is best for your own sanity, which means setting boundaries and dealing with the fall out. Your own nuclear family is your priority and will give you peace and security. The crazy FOO will continue to be crazy and send you on an emotional roller coaster, so derive your strength and purpose from your nuclear family. They will stick by you. As an adult, you get to choose who you associate with; you can choose the sane over the nuthouse. I also learned, I can't make them happy regardless of what I do, so I finally gave up and focused on my own life and found my own peace in my journey.
     Good luck to you ... .there are no right answers, you just have to do the best you can.
     

[Panda39]

ProudDad12,

You are asking for something healthy, this is about them and their dysfunction and not about you. 

Panda39

[zachira]

I am the black sheep in my family. My brother, sister, and mother all have BPD. What has helped me is to look at how my parents treated their siblings. My maternal aunt was the black sheep of the family, and was talked badly about by all her siblings despite taking care of my grandmother for years, and being a wonderful aunt to all her nieces and nephew who all come from very dysfunctional homes. My paternal uncle was never called son by his father, had to do horrible chores the others did not have to do, and was a very kind man who my father unfairly endlessly criticized. One trait of people with BPD is they have to find someone to scapegoat because they cannot take responsibility for their negative feelings. All this really hurts, when you care and love your family despite how badly they treat you. It is also confusing because one moment you are treated well, and then out of the blue you are senselessly blamed for everything that goes wrong.

[ProudDad12]

I wanted to thank everyone again for the support. I've been checking in here, but haven't responded to this in a while, so I figured it's time for an update.

I made it through Christmas... .I left my phone upstairs all day on Do Not Disturb. In the end, the only message I received was from my brother that night saying Merry Christmas and they love us. I was torn over whether or not to respond... .and ended up not. It was tough not responding to that, but I reminded myself that I would essentially be breaking the silence and opening the door to further conversation. Hopefully he will forgive my silence.

Beyond that the only other communication was a few texts from my sister later in the week. It started with something outside the conflict I needed to respond to, but ended with her trying to "help" and also make sure I knew that the no communication will do more harm than good. And that "withholding my children" from my mom is not a good way to handle things. I ignored at that point.

The other interesting part happened when my mom made a big Facebook post stating that she is rarely on Facebook, but the family is going through issues and asked for prayers. She didn't call me out, but the breadcrumbs on her Facebook activity made it clear my side of the family is the issue (e.g., posting pictures of my daughter stating how she misses her and didn't get to see her for Christmas). So obviously the support poured in for her, from people I've known throughout my life. And there were plenty of passive aggressive responses from my mom talking about how it's in God's hands, and only He can change hearts, etc. Not to mention whatever was said in private messages beyond the 200+ comments she received. So I guess I'm just going to have to accept my name is mud now.

So now I'm past the holidays, and am trying to decide how to reach out to my mom. I have no idea how to approach this. I would love to get a sincere apology out of her, especially since that's probably the only thing that might bring my wife back to the table with them. But that's a pipe dream due to the impossibility of introspection combined with the fact that anything other than "mama is wonderful" is met with accusations of making her out to be evil. So I guess the most realistic is to state and re-inforce boundaries, and pray something takes. But with my wife out of the picture from them for now, that means even if I do pay a visit, it will be some time before my currently 10/mo old son will accompany me. So that in and of itself will likely be a catalyst for more problems. For now I'm praying pretty regularly for the right thing to say (as well as peace, etc.).

Side note, my family has an ongoing iMessage thread with my parents, siblings, and their spouses. My wife and I keep it on DND since it can get disruptive during the work day. It was silent the past few weeks but they picked it back up this week. During the 5 hour argument a few weeks ago, one of the accusations was that they notice that my wife and I rarely partake in the conversations (Which typically are random and meaningless. They also conveniently overlooked the fact that my brother and brother in law are even more silent). Is such a message chain normal, or another sign of enmeshment? Sometimes it's practical things such as sharing pictures or giving an update on something, but often times is closer to expressing opinions on this or that and everyone joining in to express agreement.

[Panda39]

Glad you got through the holidays, I hope you and yours had a relaxing a peaceful Christmas.

Wow lots of passive/aggressive behavior from lots of people and FOG. 

In the end, the only message I received was from my brother that night saying Merry Christmas and they love us.

Could have been genuine... .could have been a boundary busting attempt or even a little of both.

Beyond that the only other communication was a few texts from my sister later in the week. It started with something outside the conflict I needed to respond to, but ended with her trying to "help" and also make sure I knew that the no communication will do more harm than good. And that "withholding my children" from my mom is not a good way to handle things. I ignored at that point.

Good job not taking the bait here.

The other interesting part happened when my mom made a big Facebook post stating that she is rarely on Facebook, but the family is going through issues and asked for prayers. She didn't call me out, but the breadcrumbs on her Facebook activity made it clear my side of the family is the issue (e.g., posting pictures of my daughter stating how she misses her and didn't get to see her for Christmas). So obviously the support poured in for her, from people I've known throughout my life. And there were plenty of passive aggressive responses from my mom talking about how it's in God's hands, and only He can change hearts, etc. Not to mention whatever was said in private messages beyond the 200+ comments she received. So I guess I'm just going to have to accept my name is mud now.

Do you see the Drama Triangle here?  You're the persecutor, your mom/family is the victim, and now she's pulling in outsiders to be the rescuers.

So now I'm past the holidays, and am trying to decide how to reach out to my mom. I have no idea how to approach this. I would love to get a sincere apology out of her, especially since that's probably the only thing that might bring my wife back to the table with them. But that's a pipe dream due to the impossibility of introspection combined with the fact that anything other than "mama is wonderful" is met with accusations of making her out to be evil. So I guess the most realistic is to state and re-inforce boundaries, and pray something takes. But with my wife out of the picture from them for now, that means even if I do pay a visit, it will be some time before my currently 10/mo old son will accompany me. So that in and of itself will likely be a catalyst for more problems. For now I'm praying pretty regularly for the right thing to say (as well as peace, etc.).

Can you and your wife sit down and work out boundaries for your own family.  What will you put up with and what won't you put up with?  She might be able to help you work on some ideas, another option might be to seek a Therapist that could help work through some of this too.  I'm not sure that you need to announce your boundaries to your family just enforce them when you need to.

Side note, my family has an ongoing iMessage thread with my parents, siblings, and their spouses. My wife and I keep it on DND since it can get disruptive during the work day. It was silent the past few weeks but they picked it back up this week. During the 5 hour argument a few weeks ago, one of the accusations was that they notice that my wife and I rarely partake in the conversations (Which typically are random and meaningless. They also conveniently overlooked the fact that my brother and brother in law are even more silent). Is such a message chain normal, or another sign of enmeshment? Sometimes it's practical things such as sharing pictures or giving an update on something, but often times is closer to expressing opinions on this or that and everyone joining in to express agreement.

In my situation... .my SO's uBPDxw uses the phone, facebook, IM etc. as a means of control.  Both daughters were trained by their mother that it is rude to not answer your phone when someone calls... .that includes during dinner, midnight when you are asleep in your bed or at school etc. 

Everyone is different but as a point of reference I talk with my mom every couple of weeks to monthly and email occasionally in between.  Being in contact 24/7 seems a little much to me but ask a teenage girl these days and you will get a different response 

If you want to participate or it's convenient for you, do... .if it isn't... .don't.


Panda39

[Notwendy]

This is reminiscent of when I started having boundaries with my BPD mother. The "I love you" ( manipulation?) "mother is wonderful" ( maybe she is- to you ) e mails sent to me from family members she coerced to tell me this. Even her household helper ( she is elderly and has assistance) called me up to tell me how wonderful she is- with my mother probably sitting by the phone after telling her to do this.

Mother doesn't use Facebook but I got a family group e mail discussing about "she has issues" and atfirst, I thought they were discussing my mother- then I realized they were talking about me    and someone accidentally hit " reply all " in a group e mail and my e mail address was on it.

I've also heard that I am "keeping her from her grandchildren" because I had boundaries with her. 

If you understand the drama triangle, it isn't as hurtful to be placed in persecutor role. It's the way this works in a dysfunctional family. You have your own family now and can change the dynamics with yours.

[ProudDad12]

Thanks everyone. Incidentally my mom and I have been in a little communication today, but it's not looking good. She initiated with a long text this morning (she apparently heard the "after the holidays" part but not the "I'll reach out". Since I was ready to reach out anyway, I began to respond, but was slow and methodical with it. Also wanted wife to proofread, etc., as well as take my time to look at it again before sending after I had a chance to cool off. It basically had the bare minimum of what I wanted to say while trying to be clear as possible. Also tried to ignore all the FOG saturating her text.

I haven't sent that one yet, but shortly after she sent that she send another; a picture of her, my dad, and I when I was a kid, and told me to remember where I came from. Shortly after that, she sent me an link to an article with Bible quotes about mothers (presumably assembled for Mother's day).

Using the Bible as a tool against me was too much, and I temporarily aborted my other message and outright told her if she wants resolution she needs to stop. That I believe that using the Bible to make your point is an abuse and distortion of it, etc. I also reminded her she's done that to me before... .when I was a teenager she opened my Bible to the "Honor thy father and mother... ." verse after we had a disagreement, and left it on my nightstand. I told her I had always resented that, given my feelings on using the Bible for personal gain against another.

Well that went over about as you'd expect. She said I opened the door to the Bible thing (since I once, during an argument, told her I had to leave and cleave to my wife). Then she said she had no memory of leaving my Bible on my nightstand and got angry at me for throwing that in her face.

I reminded her she had been begging me to know what she possibly could have done to me and my wife. I told her if I couldn't bring something that simple to her without her becoming infuriated, how could I possibly bring something more serious?

So I don't have my hopes up for my bigger response later. But if I don't say some of the things I need to say, I might burst!

[Notwendy]

Read my post on your other thread about religion in dysfunctional people. Children form their concept of God on their developmental level. Parents are a powerful example of what God must be like for their children and we speak of God as a "parent". In dysfunctional families the concept of God may be more like the parents.

By adolescence, children begin to form a more adult concept of God.

Some people in my ACA group struggle with their God concept- and work at forming their own. If you are religious, you may wish to work with your own clergy to form your own relationship with God- one that can be a different concept of God than the one you mother has. Ultimately- all of us have our own personal relationship with our God concept. Some people in my groups have embraced their own religion, changed religions or denominations, or chosen no religion, but really all of us have to work with our own conscience and way that works for us.