Fighting, fighting, and more fighting

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

Wow! It's been non-stop with him.

I hope you see that you're doing everything you can to be a kind person while he's looking to bait you. Those kind of digs from my ex would, over time, make me doubt myself. That's why they try to use that strategy.

This "lying" thing is his attempt to take you down a notch. He's been able to use it in the past, just about misunderstandings and has been able to get an apology out of you. Stand strong. You are not lying, nor are you a liar. Don't let him try to damage your self-esteem this way.   

[Cat Familiar]

Wow! It's been non-stop with him.

I hope you see that you're doing everything you can to be a kind person while he's looking to bait you. Those kind of digs from my ex would, over time, make me doubt myself. That's why they try to use that strategy.

This "lying" thing is his attempt to take you down a notch. He's been able to use it in the past, just about misunderstandings and has been able to get an apology out of you. Stand strong. You are not lying, nor are you a liar. Don't let him try to damage your self-esteem this way.   

[Frankee]

I hope you see that you're doing everything you can to be a kind person while he's looking to bait you. Those kind of digs from my ex would, over time, make me doubt myself. That's why they try to use that strategy.

This "lying" thing is his attempt to take you down a notch. He's been able to use it in the past, just about misunderstandings and has been able to get an apology out of you. Stand strong.

I appreciate validation that this whole lying thing is his attempt to bring me down.  You're right.  Worked in the past.  He knows that is the one play he has that always strikes a nerve with me.  I hate being called a liar and he constantly makes it know he hates them.  It's his strongest thing he has going to make me feel guilty and in the wrong.

What sucks even more is I take the bait.  I admit guilt, I apologize, etc.  I can't keep doing that.  I already know its going to be a very bad day.  I hate having days off work with him.  I use to enjoy it, but like clockwork he ruins it and then says it's because of me.

I've been limiting my interaction with him. Finding reasons to be in the other room, keeping busy, keeping conversations neutral.  It's very hard when almost everything is his attempt to bait me into validating that nobody listens to him, admitting guilt about the lying, threatening that I'm going to lose everything, how I'm going to regret it.  I'm waiting for the part where he says I'm ignoring him because I'm not engaging in these conversations.  He's a master at mind games and manipulation to get the results he wants. 

[Cat Familiar]

I hate being called a liar and he constantly makes it know he hates them.  It's his strongest thing he has going to make me feel guilty and in the wrong.

Yep, and you're going to have to extinguish this bait so it no longer works. Remember the concept of intermittent reinforcement. As awful as it is to be called a liar, keep on remaining neutral whenever he does that. When he can't get a rise out of you, he'll quit.

I had to do the same thing with being called "selfish". That really got on my nerves because my mother had successfully used that as a motivational strategy to make me feel guilty and help more. I finally got to the point of realizing what a hold that word had on me and how it wasn't really true anyway, though admittedly I am selfish at times, who isn't? Then the word had no power over me.

I'd suggest you do the same with the word "liar". As others have said, we all tell white lies sometimes and we occasionally misspeak, so what? When you don't flinch when he tries to use that word with you, then it will have lost its power.

On another topic, do you think he'd really try and take the kids from you? After all, this is a guy who can't seem to even fix food for himself. If he had to do all the tasks that you do for the kids, I doubt he'd want to have all that responsibility.

[flourdust]

This level of persistent aggression is alarming. Have you spoken to any kind of domestic abuse hotline? It might be time to consider a restraining order and to get him out of the house.

[forlorn]

Hi, Frankee!  Sounds like your pwBPD has worked really hard to get you to buy a very black-and-white version of the truth – especially when it suits his purposes. So if you misspeak, it’s a lie. If you take a wild guess and you’re wrong, it’s a lie. If you say orange and it’s really more of a tangerine, it’s a lie.  I can relate.  That happens to me, too.  In fact, I sometimes get so flustered, knowing that if I give a wrong answer or say the wrong word it will mean a blow up, that I actually say the wrong words or lose my ability to craft a coherent sentence. And, of course, that “proves” his point.  Do you find that happening to you? 

If you did outright lie on purpose, I think I could easily understand why.  I’m guessing that his jealousy, unfounded as it might be, makes you afraid to say that you talked to a man or are going to meet a man, even for the most innocent of reasons and even though you know you have no intention of betraying your partner. That’s beside the point, but I want you to know that if that ever does happen, that doesn’t make you a bad person or a liar. It just means you’re afraid, and trying desperately to maintain a very fragile peace.

I’ve sat here for a while trying to think of some bit of wisdom for you, but the truth is that I’m just as hurt, angry and exhausted as you are.  I want to thank you for sharing this experience so honestly.  Reading the responses you’ve received and given is a huge benefit for those of us traveling this same journey.

By the way, I've read through this whole thread twice, and failed to see where you messed up. You reacted in a way you didn't like, but who among us hasn't?

[babyducks]

Hi Frankee,

How are you feeling today?    I am really glad to see you here and posting. 

This level of persistent aggression is alarming. Have you spoken to any kind of domestic abuse hotline? It might be time to consider a restraining order and to get him out of the house.

I will admit that I am exactly in the same place as flourdust is, in his post.     This level of persistent aggression is concerning.      Because I have been following your story for a while I know you contacted the domestic abuse hotline on Nov 7.    So this has been going on for about a month.    That's a long time.

I talked to the national abuse hotline on their chat.  They provided information.  Also pointed out (as many us of know) that this is abuse, he's an abusive partner, I don't deserve this, there is a difference between love and abuse. Even people with mental illness aren't all abusive that it is a choice for him to act this way.

I'm not an expert, just experienced.    I know that the lines of mental illness and abuse sometimes cross.     I know that the various mental illnesses can overlap.   Here is the thing though.   Abuse is Abuse no matter which diagnosis the abuser has.   I am concerned at how much longer this can continue before one of you flashes over.

What you are describing is a lot of emotional blackmail  (threats, anger, warnings, intimidation, or punishment). It’s a form of manipulation.      I am going to suggest you google Narcissistic Abuse.   I am referring to the adult to adult or relationship Narcissistic Abuse.   

Is it time to think about your next step?   

'ducks

[Harley Quinn]

I would agree with babyducks on this comment especially, as it's the reason I've come on to respond to your update.

Is it time to think about your next step?

Having been in the awful position of living one day to the next, I can see that this is where you are right now.  What is your long term goal here Frankee?  You have children and he is regularly threatening to take them from you.  How does that make you feel?  I'm sure that somewhere inside you are scared of what he might to do act on this.  How can you protect yourself and your kids?  I'd advise you to seriously think about your options.  This type of pervasive abuse is not sustainable for any of you.

Love and light x

 

[Frankee]

I'm going to talk to my H tonight when we have time alone.  I'm going to talk to him about me leaving.  I have weighed my options with an extremely heavy heart.  I talked to a friend who knows my H from a few years.  She gave me advice that I think is my best bet.

Today escalated to a very dangerous point.  He accused me of the lying.  He then got angry because I wasn't going to talk to him when he was enraged.  It ended up with him grabbing me, throwing me on the bed, and trying to smack me. I panicked and reacted.  I put my feet on his chest and shoved him to where he slammed into the wall.  I think I took him by surprise because he didn't put his hands on me after that, but wouldn't left me leave the room.

We talked for a long while after that.  Nothing good.  He had determined that he was done, wants me out of the house, says he doesn't want to be with a habitual liar, etc. We never got to a resolution.  I refused to leave.  He refused to give me a second chance.  I decided to talk to him about what the next step we are going to do. 

Going to tell him that if he really wants me to leave, I will.  I'm not abandoning my family, I'm going to be here for the kids for whatever they need.  I'm going to be in their lives, and that I'm not running away.  I really want to take the kids and run, but I don't have the ability to take them right now.  My friend and I have plan.  She's going to be there for me with whatever I need.  I need to get out first safely.  Then I'm going to be there for the kids.  Check in on them and see how they are doing.  I need to be very cautious with how I handle this.  If I exit this way, I feel it is a lot safer than grabbing the kids and running.  I firmly believe they aren't in danger, but he may do something to me if I try to run away with the kids.

I need this separation because me staying here is causing the situation to deteriorate rapidly.  I can't change him, neither one of us is happy anymore.  Even now, waiting for him to come home to talk, he's texting, asking questions. 

[Frankee]

I am not going to involve law enforcement or restraining order yet.  I honestly don't believe a piece of paper or this local law enforcement is able to protect me.   Not to mention it's a she said he said and he has a way of convincing people of things he wants them to believe.

[formflier]

Recording apps on phones can eliminate he said she said.

This is a very serious situation.  The physicality and not letting you leave a room are all crimes in most jurisdictions. 

I would hope you could involve others in a way that shines light on abusive behaviors.  Is there an domestic abuse agency you could connect with?

FF

[babyducks]

Hi Frankee,

I absolutely know you are not abandoning your family.    I know you will be there for you kids.

Please do not go this alone.    This is serious and you should avail yourself to all the benefits of professional support that are out there.

The time that is most fraught,   most dangerous is when one partner attempts to leave an abusive relationship.    Often things flash over then and get out of control.

I know you've spoken with the National Domestic Violence online chat personnel and found them helpful.  www.thehotline.org/

Please get in contact with your local chapter.    

'ducks

[formflier]

  I'm going to talk to him about me leaving.  

Can you hold off on any more talk of leaving? 

If you had decided to leave, I'm not suggesting you stay.

Babyducks is right.  Leaving is usually the most dangerous time.  Talking to him about it is likely to result in more anger and anxiety (triggering abandonment fears... .etc etc)

We'll help all we can, but I'm sure you would agree there is a certain amount of nuance and understanding that is lost in the online format.  Nothing compares with being able to sit down, in person and tell your story and let someone trained in these situation assess the danger level and your best course of action.

Please reach out to your local chapter.

FF

[Frankee]

Short update.  After I talked to my friend, I talked to him.  She gave me the courage to talk to him.  I wanted him to see that I would leave if that is what he really wanted.  I had found a local women's shelter I was going to go.

Remained very neutral on my statements, no accusations or blaming.  Came down to saying if he really wants me to leave I will and I won't go far.  He said nothing.  No response.  No anger.  Just sat in quiet.  What seemed like forever, he started asking me what bills are due this week.  I kept my distance from him for most of the night.  Kept everything very neutral.  I didn't want to give any feeling that I was still planning on leaving.

I never once said before that I would leave willingly.  This gives me time to make a safety and exit plan.  I talked to my girl friend and she's going to get resources and make preparations.  I'm going to pack a grab bag if it comes down to this again before I get everything in place.  I'm going to search out a local counselor that takes my insurance and meet with them.

[formflier]

 
I'm glad you are preparing.  I'm glad you have a shelter lined up.

Do they have free counseling at the shelter... .or somehow affiliated with it?

Staying neutral is key.  Trust me... .he doesn't "want" you to leave.  When his emotions are bonkers... he does "want" you to leave and has NO MEMORY of wanting you to stay.  He likely "kinda" remembers what he said trying to chase you off and has shame about it.

Perhaps next time he asks you to leave, give his a pad of paper and pencil and ask him to list out how it will work.  Less verbal... .more writing.

Express sadness about it but turn to solutions and how it would work... .let him do ALL the work... it's his idea.

Thoughts?

A local... in person counselor is critical!

FF

[forlorn]

Hi, again!  Thought of you often throughout the night and am very distressed to see that things got physical.  So sorry you had to experience that.  

I really want to caution you to do all of your homework before you make a decision to leave without your children. In some circumstances, the legal ramifications of that decision can complicate your ability to take custody later - especially if it's contested.  Not suggesting you stay or go.  You will make the right decision for yourself and your kids.  Just cover all of your bases.  Maybe the current lull in activity will provide you enough time to be thorough.

[Red5]

I really want to caution you to do all of your homework before you make a decision to leave without your children. In some circumstances, the legal ramifications of that decision can complicate your ability to take custody later - especially if it's contested.  Not suggesting you stay or go.  You will make the right decision for yourself and your kids.  Just cover all of your bases.  Maybe the current lull in activity will provide you enough time to be thorough.

@Frankee... .I want to echo what @forlorn has stated, I understand that you are in a very tough spot, just think it through, and be careful, I do not know the ages of your children, but to me this would increase the risk factor if they are young ones... .know that we here and listening, and are thinking of you, and you are in our thoughts and prayers... .you are not alone.

v/r Red5

[Harley Quinn]

Frankee,

I'm interested to know who your home belongs to?  Is it a joint property or just that of your H?

Speaking to a local DV advocate now that you have a plan to leave is a must.  Try to keep things calm at home and act normal.  Be ready to get out for a short time if you see the signs that led up to the violence.  Act early.  Go for a walk, remember something you need to go buy, say a friend asked you to call round as she's in need of you for something.  Steer clear of the kitchen and bathroom in the early stages of his temper is rising.  Just remove yourself from the situation, take a breather and then return when he has settled down a bit. 

The DV advocate can walk you through the process of making preparations if you plan to leave and may be able to advise a shelter that takes families.  I know of communities where families are located temporarily in the UK.  It is different in different countries.  You won't know what they can support with until you speak to them and you might be surprised at how comprehensive that support can be.  I'm afraid that leaving your children in the care of a man with a short fuse could leave you in a constant state of anxiety and unable to benefit from the time and space away from him to repair yourself from what you've been through.  Please take the advice offered here and think carefully before you act.  Getting this right is very important for yourself and your children, so knowing your options is the first thing to strive towards.  Do you have the number of a local agency you can call?

Love and light x 

[AskingWhy]

Frankee, I know it takes great courage to do what you are doing.  Harley Quinn has some great advice.

Make sure your safety and the safety of your children and pets is the priority.  I agree that you should not announce your plans to leave.

DV counselors and agencies often have legal consults available to guide people in the practical matters of leaving a DV situation. 

[forlorn]

Frankee, having had many friends and a sister who have had to make use of DV services, I can tell you that here in the US, many DV shelters are equipped to take in families.  They will also be able to connect you with a variety of legal services as well as mental health services for you and your children. With the proper assistance you can create a plan that works for you, making it much easier to execute than trying to make decisions on the fly.

I hope all of this isn't feeling like there's any judgement regarding how you proceed. I think we all just want to see you and your kids - and your husband, for that matter - in a safe situation.

I don't know if this is the first time your husband has been physical toward you, or if it's the first time he kept you confined.  What I can tell you from my very own experience is that once that particular cat is out of the bag, it's very difficult to put it back in.

Wishing you peace of mind.

[Cat Familiar]

I don't know if this is the first time your husband has been physical toward you, or if it's the first time he kept you confined.  What I can tell you from my very own experience is that once that particular cat is out of the bag, it's very difficult to put it back in.

I agree with forlorn, also having had experience with this.

And yes, please do check out what services are available in your area for you and your children. DV folks have seen it all and can assist you in a variety of ways.

I didn't seek help when I left, but it would have been much better if I had.   

[patientandclear]

Adding my voice to those urging you to consult an expert in child custody in DV situations. IF you leave without your kids (I recognize there could be a situation where you have no choice), you may actually be greatly helped by immediately getting a DV protection order. In many jurisdictions, that would require him to leave you AND kids alone till further court action. It’s understood that kids are often why partners on the receiving end of violence don’t feel free to leave.

I’ve been in this situation myself and urge you to think through why you are discussing leaving with him. Are you trying to affect his behavior by acquainting him with its possible outcome? I agree with Cat that once this line has been crossed it is easily crossed again; you should assume he will hurt you again. He is very angry and sees you as the cause. You are not going to talk him out of that; it’s probably happening at a subconscious level for him.

Or are you trying to placate him and achieve safety by making yourself inoffensive by offering to leave? I get that impulse, but it is further indication that things are at an extreme point. If you are offering to leave your kids behind to negotiate safety for yourself, the situation is pervaded with emotional and physical violence.

Please do an exercise just in your own head: say to yourself “me leaving is my decision, it is not up to him,” about 1000 times a day. Whether he wants you to leave is perhaps the least important question.

As I said, I was in a similar situation, with a small child. After reaching the point you’re at now, it took me two more years to actually leave. There wasn’t violence all the time. But his rage was always below the surface and when something felt wrong to him, the impulse to control the bad feelings by physically controlling or hurting me never left. Once that pattern is established, NOT returning to it is unusual. You actually have all the information now about what this is going to be like. I know it’s hard to swallow that and not wait and hope that you can somehow navigate it. But it doesn’t do anyone including your H any favors to play this out.

[Cat Familiar]

Frankee,
How are you? What's going on? Let us know when you have a chance.

 
Cat

[Frankee]

Hello.  Things are still on shaky ground.  Had an incident yesterday.  Our oldest didn't have any clean pants.  I almost kept him home because it was cold and I didn't want him wearing shorts.  I made a bad call and sent him to school.  I had a feeling it was a bad idea when a teacher made a comment about his legs being cold.  Then I pick him up and saw that the nurse had given him a pair of pants.  Not a shining moment as a mother.  Felt like... oh great, they probably think he's some needy kid who doesn't have clothes.  So Monday I have to return the pants, tell them thank you and explain the misunderstanding.

My H comes home last night.  It was fine for awhile.  Then I heard our youngest cry, think he got too hot.  I pick him up and start rocking him to sleep.  My H brought up about the pants because I had written on the board to buy a couple more pants for him.  He asked about it.  Asked what our son wore that day.  I instantly wanted to lie and tell him pants.  I knew that I needed to come out with the truth because no matter how mad he got about the truth, he would come unglued if I lied.  He blew up.  Ranted and raved.  In so many words implied I was a bad mom and now going to end up getting social services involved.  By this time, our youngest had fallen asleep on my shoulder and oblivious to what was going on.  My mind instantly went to my grab bag.  I haven't gotten my emergency items together, but I was remembering where it was.

When there was a lull in his rant, I used the moment to excuse myself to put our youngest back to bed.  I stayed in the room even after I put him down and heard my H making snide remarks about the situation to himself.  I made busy work cleaning and such until bed time. 

He took a shower and I took the time to lay down and relax for a minute.  I fell asleep and didn't hear him come out.  He put his hand on my arm and woke me.  He apologized for yelling, said he didn't mean it, I wasn't a bad mom, mistakes happen, all we have to do is make sure he has clean pants Monday and return the clothes to the nurse.  I talked to him and said that I already felt bad about what happened and knew I had made a bad choice after I sent him to school.  He hugged me and said that it was okay and that I wasn't a bad mom, how he knows how much I do for the kids, how I do more than he does and he knows I love them.

I still am packing my grab bag tonight and hiding it.  I believe his apology, but I already know that it's a bandaid on a larger problem. 

[formflier]

  So Monday I have to return the pants, tell them thank you and explain the misunderstanding.

JADE is usually bad... .I wouldn't even call this an "incident".


 More later

FF

[Frankee]

Oh, yeah, sorry.  Meant incident with my H.  Or bad situation ... However needs to be worded 

[Mutt]

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