Hoping for feedback about devalue

[Nwish]

Thank you! I did start to feel really low for a while. I took your advice Melli and it did feel good!

Well, here’s an update... .

We had a nice conversation through text and then he called and we continued to talk about how he’s doing and his new relationship and how he isn’t happy. I know he’s still having problems letting her go bc she plays games and breaks up with him for no reason every 4 days or so and he’s so frustrated. I think he knows he doesn’t love her in more than a superficial way but his confidence is so low he keeps trying to prove himself. He told me how much of a true friend (and more than a friend) I am to him.

He asked if I could come over so he could hold me and I finally told him no. It was so hard. We talked a little more and he said he would leave the door open and that he was happiest with me. I still (very friendly) said no, it’s not fair to me. He told me goodnight and he loved me.

 I was shocked the next morning when he started texting about my day. He hasn’t done that since we broke up. Now, he either feels badly about only calling when he has a problem, or he truly wanted to talk. I gained a little self respect for sure. He needs to know that I can’t just be his comfort. I just don’t think he will ever make a decision to leave this person because the drama dynamic is what he likes (even tho he says no) and he can’t “win” her because she keeps pulling the rug out. I hope this makes sense.

I plan to start another post. I want to know if anyone has experienced a loved one knowing they messed up, wanting to reconcile, but not knowing how, or feeling too shameful, or fear rejection. I shouldn’t be in charge of making the move. It’s about what he wants at this point. I’m just not sure he can muster up the motivation to try to get me back. Maybe I’m in denial but I see signs from him.

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[Meili]

I'm glad that it felt good and that you regained a bit of your self-respect!

I also experienced something else that you are having to deal with; my x would complain to me about her new relationship. I allowed it to happen because I wanted to show her that I was still there for her, that she could rely on me, and that I loved her that much.

What I actually showed her was that she could have the best of both worlds. She got the part of me that she needed at that moment and get the rest from the other guy. People around here pointed out that she had no reason to come back to me because she already had me.

Are you giving him any reason to come back to you?

[Nwish]

I hope now that I’m getting myself in order thanks to you all. Giving him a reason to think I won’t just be there whenever. How do I do it? I declined staying over with him. What else? So I never reach out? Do I just decline talking about his relationship? I feel like his confidence is so low he wont reach out thinking I’m done with him.

[Meili]

I put limits on what I'd talk to my x about and when I would talk to her. We were no longer in an intimate relationship, so we needed to stop acting as if we were.

The two of you are in the same situation. Isn't the new woman now the one responsible for being his emotional cheerleader?

[Nwish]

Yes - he was her emotional responsibility. It’s strange though because he texts me everyday now. I really do think they have been broken up for a while, but he still uses her breaking up with him to get me to feel bad and come over. Is that possible? Seems counterproductive! He texted saying he is holding his ground and not going back to her. He started texting daily once I said I wouldn’t come over one night. Now it seems he is trying to get back into the activities we used to do together.

Is it possible he has so much shame that he can’t just say he made a mistake and wants it to work? He had mentioned that breaking up with me was “unintentional”... .(whatever that means). Or maybe he’s taking it slow, waiting for me to jump in? I don’t know. I have to protect myself emotionally though. You have no idea how badly I want to stay over there tonight! Well, maybe you do.

Maybe he sees me as a friend, but he doesn’t text his friends (actually doesn’t have any true friends). This is so frustrating. I don’t want him to be with me because I’m “good for him”. He’s never strayed from telling me how much he loves me... .it’s just the actions. I’ll have to be patient I guess.

I appreciate all of this feedback so much. It’s rrally helped! Thank you all and have a great holiday!

[once removed]

How do I do it? I declined staying over with him. What else? So I never reach out? Do I just decline talking about his relationship?

there are few silver bullets in these scenarios. the best general advice is to "make yourself attractive" so to speak. and what that really means is to work on becoming the best possible version of yourself. to be the confident, strong, attractive person he fell for to begin with. to build up your life independent of him. and to arm yourself with knowledge in the meantime.

Meili asks an important question when he asks if youre giving him any reason to come back to you. i dont know that its about specific moves (reach out, dont reach out) as much as how you carry yourself, and i do agree that someone carrying themselves with high regard will protect themselves emotionally. youre showing strength, and youre seeing the results. keep it up 

[Nwish]

Thank you, Once Removed!

Ever since the initial breakup he would call me crying from time to time that he wanted things the way they were, and he would ask me to come over. He would tell me and make sure I knew he loved me. When his new relationship finally broke for good, he definitely started talking to me as I was in his life again. Asking to hang out and asking about everyday things. After a few days I was guarded and didn’t let on that I wanted anything more than a friendship. He called me to come over and that’s when I declined and he hinted about us being together and how it was unintentional when he left.

I’m not sure if he got invalidated along the way bc I didn’t run over. I also told him I wished our timing was better. Then I said a few other things that might have come across as me being done with anything more than a friendship. Well, the last time I saw him is when he said he doesn’t have romantic feelings and we could never be because he will never be happy and I shouldn’t wait for him. The past few times o have been there he was all over me (I declined sex bc he was in another rs) and now he just stopped and said he only loves me as a friend and doesn’t want to hurt me. He is so happy to hear from me though.

So I don’t know if he did this to protect himself or what. All indications before that were that he wanted me back. My divorce isn’t final however. I’m stuck for what to do at this point. He always asked why I didn’t get upset or bitter about him leaving and being with someone else. Is he just looking for me to want him? So confusing.

[once removed]

frankly, he doesnt know what he wants, and hes telling you that, and his actions are, and have been indicating that. it may flip on a dime tomorrow.

bottom line, you cant get caught up or confused by his confusion, or it will only drag you down.

it is something of a waiting game, but dont think in terms of putting your life on hold for him.

think in terms of Radical Acceptance (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=89910.0) and making the best of a less than good situation that will hopefully change.

[Meili]

once removed is spot on about things taking time and you'll serve yourself best by not getting caught up in his confusion. That is something that many of us have/had to learn. It is one of the best things that we can do to protect ourselves.

It's been a few days, where are things at for the two of you?

[Nwish]

Thanks, Once Removed, for the advice and Melli for catching up with me.

I haven’t reached out since Christmas when I sent him some information and he was really appreciative (kind of over dramatic, over the top appreciative). I’m getting such mixed signals that I just don’t want to reach out and be there for everything, but on the other hand I know he likes when I reach out and that’s when I usually get the most communication... .after I reach out, even if for something lite. Otherwise, I might not hear from him until he is desperate. Now that he is single his desperation will come in another form I believe.

I feel like he does/says things to pull me close but doesn’t want to be rejected so then counters them with a push. I could be wrong but I feel like he’s being careful instead of just honest.

Since he’s impulsive and not a great planner, for now I’m just taking it as his confusion and not reaching out. I don’t like it but I think it’s best. I will say that he’s still never mad, angry or even indifferent. So maybe it means he really does just view me as his only friend, or I just don’t mean enough to trigger those emotions. Who knows

[Meili]

Who knows is correct. No one knows what is going on in the mind of another and putting too much thought into it is a waste of time and energy.

They push/pull dynamic is common. You need to be careful that you don't play a part in that dysfunctional dance. In other words, don't let his actions and confusions become a motivator for you choices.

[Nwish]

I had a brief text conversation with him this morning. It does seem like he’s just going about his life like he doesn’t need me in it... .even though he wanted my attention and affection so much just weeks ago. And while together (even at breakup time) he was so worried I would leave and always wanting to see me. I just don’t get how he can be single now and just view me as a friend. He’s still yet to devalue or block me but the intensity of his feelings change for sure.

[Meili]

Focusing on what he may or may not be feeling and/or doing won't do you much good. At best, it's just a presumption. In fact, letting go of those types of thought processes is exactly what you must do to salvage a real relationship. You have to allow him to be himself and you to be yourself; to differentiate yourself from him.

The fact that you are still in communication with him is good. It gives you a place to work from. It allows you to show him consistency in words and actions. This becomes very important in maintaining a relationship with a pwBPD. It allows them to have some semblance of safety in knowing that you aren't likely to abandon or become enmeshed.

[Nwish]

The way you explained this has probably given me the clearest picture yet... .
Thank you.

[Nwish]

The problem I’m having with the sporadic contact is this... .

I have all these things I want to say and feelings I want him to know, or questions about what happened and why. So when he wants to talk about it, I listen. Then I almost always go home wondering why I didn’t respond to this, or that, or why I didn’t mention this or that. I have so much to say and I’ve had these chances and then I don’t say anything or don’t respond to what he’s saying the way I really want to. So I’m always looking for another opportunity to see him so I can let him know this stuff, when In  reality it probably doesn’t matter. The conversation is thrown for a loop most of the time anyway.

So trying to text or email things at the beginning was what I did, and used to calm him down. I think at this point, these exact things are what you are saying NOT to do right now... .it’s like limbo. Focusing on just me is hard bc I’m so sad.

[Meili]

What sort of things would you want to tell him? Can you show him those things without actually using the words?

We've all heard the old cliches that love is a verb and actions speak louder than words. The reason that they are cliches is because they are true. Saying "I love you" is quite different from showing love.

That being said, meet him on his level. If he wants to talk about the relationship, then talk to him about it. If he tells you that he loves and misses you, then let him know that you love and miss him as well. The point is to not chase or push. Go on the journey together without overwhelming.

I completely understand the rational thought process of wanting to talk about what happened in hopes of preventing it from happening in the future. That makes perfect sense in 'normal' situations. But, when a person is emotionally dysregulated, all that goes right out the window. pwBPD experience very intense emotions very quickly. This means that their level of emotional arousal is different from that of a non. So, all of the rational thoughts that are conveyed when the pwBPD is not dysregulated can go away when they are. That's why we stress the importance of not allowing things to escalate so much.

One trick that I learned to deal with the sadness was to look at the end of my relationship with my x as a gift. That it was it really was. It was an opportunity for me to learn and grow and to give our relationship the best chance of surviving. Yes, I missed talking to her and having her around. But, I used those feelings to give me the strength to do what was necessary to ensure that things would not go back to the way that they were. Had I just jumped back into a relationship with her at light speed, like had happened so many times in the past, it would have just been a repeat. I didn't want that.

Does that make sense?

[Nwish]

Thanks, Melli - yes it definitely makes sense. I do often think that this had to happen (the breakup and events after) in order for us to have a chance. If it continued we could have ended up in a marriage or LTR and not have known enough to make it. This thought process does make me feel at ease often. I haven’t pushed at all. I respond to him when he reaches out and I do show him love with my actions.

 I still worry that sometimes my lack of pushing or chasing or showing concern for our relationship is taken by him as me not caring or wanting more. I’m trying to take your advice and reverse these mindsets. It’s just so odd that we have all this time and are both single and like each other, yet don’t really speak daily. I’m surprised that he doesn’t want me over there, but then again that’s a good thing as it would only be for comfort. I think him telling me he loves me as a friend has my brain overworking again.

[Meili]

Keep in mind that pwBPD fear rejection and abandonment. Your defining and maintaining a boundary about not being used may have been seen as rejection by him. What you may be witnessing is a form of what we call Extinction Bursts. Give him some time to self-soothe and continue to be consistent in words and actions. He is taking his journey, you are taking yours.

[Nwish]

Thank you. This is new information (extinction). I have felt that my boundary and stating that certain things was taken by him as rejection. I didn’t want to be in denial about it, but it did seem like he pushed me away again when he thought I was done or only willing to be friends.

[Meili]

For whatever is worth, he's probably just as confused about what is happening as you are. This is where time and consistency in words and actions becomes important.

[Nwish]

I agree, Melli - it’s hard to be consistent in my actions and words  without consistent communication though. I have a close friend (female though) who is recovering from BPD. She told me how long it took and how much work and reflection. She said it’s a long journey.

She’s advised me to reach out to him and tell him all the things I want to tell him about our relationship dynamic and how I see it and what I want from it. She said just to do it without blame or invalidating him. What do you think about this? She thinks it might help him understand some things too. ? Any thoughts?

[once removed]

i think a lot of times when someone gives advice, they offer it through a lens of what they would want to hear or see happen if they were in that situation.

youre the one in the situation. what would your goal be, and what do you think the result would be?

[Meili]

I agree with once removed in that people often give advice based on what they would like to receive in that situation.

I am not sure that I understand what you mean about being consistent being hard when there is not consistent communication. If the communication that you do have is consistent, then it will show.

I agree with your friend in that you should not place blame or be invalidating. The reality is that we each play a role in our relationships. We are just as responsible for the dynamics as the other person. We cannot blame them for our choices and actions.

Also, it is never our place to say that another person's feelings or perspective are invalid. A lot of us around here tend to get caught up in debating facts and words used when dealing with our pwBPD. We don't understand or forget that we all process information through our own filters. We want to debate whether or not we took the trash out on Tues night or Wed night when pwBPD is upset because they don't feel important or that they are ignored because they told us that it was important to them that the trash was out by Thur morning and it wasn't out before they left for work on Wed and they are upset. When the trash was actually taken out doesn't really matter. They fact that our pwBPD is upset and feels unimportant does.

Should you tell him how you feel? You know him and the discussions that the two of you have, we don't. If he open the door for you to tell him that you miss him, then I would. The idea is to not chase or push. You and your feelings are important also though. They should not be neglected or ignored.

When we talk about not chasing or pushing, we are really talking about not putting forth more effort in the relationship than the other person is.

[Nwish]

Thank you Once Removed and Meili... .

I guess I’m still having a problem making a clear distinction between reaching out, focusing on me, and chasing. I don’t beg or text questions or ask him to come back. I usually only talk with him when he is emotional and reaches out. This is when I get to state my feelings and ask questions, but I never seem to be content with how I respond and I feel like I don’t talk about or ask about the things I really want to know... .so then when those emotional periods slow down (and might be really slow now that he’s done with his distraction r/s), then we really don’t talk much unless he gets desperate. I’ll occasionally ask him how something specific is going (moving, his son, etc), or I’ll just say “hi”. He always responds and it seems to get him in the mood to talk again.

So when I reach out I take that as “not focusing on me” in a way... .like he thinks I’m sitting around thinking about him. So that’s why I mentioned inconsistent communication. I just never know when I’ll hear from him if I don’t reach out. But I usually hear from him at some point.

Like for me just to let him know that I do love him and am interested in saving what we had. That seems like me being needy or pushy. Maybe I’m just thinking too much.

[Meili]

My position is that if you're the one always initiating contact, putting in all (or most) of the effort, and the one driving things; that would fall under the heading of chasing.

I find nothing wrong with reaching out like you would with any friend, and being bright, shiny, and interesting. That's how relationships develop and progress.

[Nwish]

Keep in mind that pwBPD fear rejection and abandonment. Your defining and maintaining a boundary about not being used may have been seen as rejection by him. What you may be witnessing is a form of what we call Extinction Bursts. Give him some time to self-soothe and continue to be consistent in words and actions. He is taking his journey, you are taking yours.

So are these possible extinction bursts I might be witnessing on my end, or could his form of an extinction burst be his withdrawing of romantic feelings and not reaching out as much?
 

[Meili]

Extinction bursts typically result from not being able to get us to move one of our boundaries. Some have likened extinction bursts to a toddler throwing a tantrum when not getting his/her way.

The problem is that BPD is a complex disorder. This is why we discourage people from trying to guess what is happening in the mind of their pwBPD. No one can ever know what is going through another person's mind, much less someone with such complicated thought processes.

It has been my experience that people want to understand what the other person is thinking in hopes of making the best guesses at how to respond to the situation. That is an exercise in futility and keeps the focus on the pwBPD instead of where it needs to be, on the non. That being said, it is a very good idea to learn about the disorder and how it effects the pwBPD. This is because it helps us decide how we want to respond.

There is a distinction between reacting (the result of the guessing) and responding (the result of the understanding). Reacting puts the control in the hands of the other person whereas responding keeps us in control of our own lives. We always want to respond and not react, no matter the situation.

You might find The 3 Levels of Emotions found in Borderline Personality an interesting read. It discusses, in greater detail, the different levels of emotions and how the pwBPD generally responds to situations given their particular emotional level.

[Nwish]

Yes - it is true that I am trying to guess what he’s thinking to understand my best action. I understand what you mean about the big picture and focusing on me and the here and now. I’m getting there - thanks for sticking with me!