My husband is in a really bad mood.

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

Hi Cat, I can relate to being sensitive to other people's energy and also having a BPD mother who told me I was "selfish" if I wanted or needed something from her. I can distinctly recall being disappointed at my college graduation when my classmates got congratulatory cards and gifts from their parents. I didn't even get a card. I started to cry and she looked at me with cold eyes and said "never expect a gift".  I knew better than to expect something expensive- but not even a card- that was tough.

Me too! My parents didn't buy me anything for my high school graduation (I'm forgetting about my college graduation--not sure if the same pattern repeated then). So I got my passive-aggressive revenge. I scheduled an early morning badminton class my first year at community college, hours before the busses ran in my neighborhood. I told my parents that I was going to hitch-hike to school or they could get me a car. 

My mother also used the silent treatment. It was really painful when I was a child and later, it was a relief. OK, don't call or write me for months! Good!

Intellectually, I know that other people's moods aren't my responsibility. What I'm working on is not feeling uncomfortable when my husband is "using up all the oxygen in the room"--a very good description, Notwendy. It hasn't happened nearly as much lately and now I'm catching myself starting to feel icky and remembering to actively utilize some strategies so that my energy doesn't dip to reverberate with his downward spiral. It's been a long time since I've tried to actively change his mood; I know he has every right to feel exactly the way he does, but it really pollutes the atmosphere and he's conscious enough not to do that with people who he wants to impress. Obviously he's got some ability to control it. I've seen photographs of him as a young teenager with that same facial expression he gets when he's in one of his black moods and I remember years ago, when we were friends before we started dating, hearing about his dark moods from other people.

The recent apology was almost humorous to me. I listened and was very polite and present and at the same time curious, wondering what on earth he was apologizing for--a recent round of grumpiness during the holidays, the disengagement he's chosen through opting for drinking instead of participating in the relationship? I didn't ask, since in the past, that has not proven to be a productive strategy. I figured if he wanted to tell me more and explore the topic, he would. Of course, he didn't.

I do see it as a possibility that he's examining his own behavior. Or it could be that in a moment of non-alcohol clarity he's realized that his behavior has something to do with me distancing myself somewhat from him. I did appreciate that he was offering an apology of sorts but, having learned better, I did not think it would change much. I guess I'm in a perennial "watch and see" mode.

Some years ago he was going through old letters and mementos and he read an excerpt of a letter from his first wife, who he married as a teenager when they were in college. The marriage didn't last long and the letter was sort of a kiss-off from a woman who was obviously very intelligent and articulate, even as a very young person. In essence it stated that he had no inclination or ability to self-reflect. As I heard him read that and it obviously was very wounding to him at the time, I thought how true it remained, even decades later.

Even if it were possible to fall "heads over heels" in love again, I would opt not to. I really don't want to have the blinders on and get hit by the proverbial Mack truck when I least expect it.

You touch on some more points that are relevant, Notwendy:
1. His desire to be "perfect" or at least seen to be "perfect" by those around him--how exhausting that must be--the search for the unattainable perfection!

2. This desire for being "loved" like how it was in the beginning--well that's a set-up destined to fail--too much information that I now hold, so it's impossible

3. Yes, the loss of tangible self-esteem from his work. It's finally occurred to me that much of what I previously ascribed to "laziness" is rather due to not knowing how to do things or feeling insecure about doing them.

I've tried a new strategy lately. The other day I had to rush off for an appointment when he had left dirty dishes in the sink and the dishwasher was still full of clean dishes that hadn't been put away. I just piled my breakfast dishes on top of his and left. Hours later when I returned, the dishes hadn't been touched, so I ignored them and finally he put away the clean dishes and loaded the dishwasher.

It pains me to ignore a mess, but I realize that this is his strategy--leave it for me and I'll clean up. The same day I ignored the pool cover becoming filled with rainwater. Usually I hook up the pump and drain it. Surprisingly he had done that in my absence.

Interesting lesson for me: if I don't do it, he might... .eventually.



 

[Cat Familiar]

Hi Cat, I can relate to being sensitive to other people's energy and also having a BPD mother who told me I was "selfish" if I wanted or needed something from her. I can distinctly recall being disappointed at my college graduation when my classmates got congratulatory cards and gifts from their parents. I didn't even get a card. I started to cry and she looked at me with cold eyes and said "never expect a gift".  I knew better than to expect something expensive- but not even a card- that was tough.

Me too! My parents didn't buy me anything for my high school graduation (I'm forgetting about my college graduation--not sure if the same pattern repeated then). So I got my passive-aggressive revenge. I scheduled an early morning badminton class my first year at community college, hours before the busses ran in my neighborhood. I told my parents that I was going to hitch-hike to school or they could get me a car. 

My mother also used the silent treatment. It was really painful when I was a child and later, it was a relief. OK, don't call or write me for months! Good!

Intellectually, I know that other people's moods aren't my responsibility. What I'm working on is not feeling uncomfortable when my husband is "using up all the oxygen in the room"--a very good description, Notwendy. It hasn't happened nearly as much lately and now I'm catching myself starting to feel icky and remembering to actively utilize some strategies so that my energy doesn't dip to reverberate with his downward spiral. It's been a long time since I've tried to actively change his mood; I know he has every right to feel exactly the way he does, but it really pollutes the atmosphere and he's conscious enough not to do that with people who he wants to impress. Obviously he's got some ability to control it. I've seen photographs of him as a young teenager with that same facial expression he gets when he's in one of his black moods and I remember years ago, when we were friends before we started dating, hearing about his dark moods from other people.

The recent apology was almost humorous to me. I listened and was very polite and present and at the same time curious, wondering what on earth he was apologizing for--a recent round of grumpiness during the holidays, the disengagement he's chosen through opting for drinking instead of participating in the relationship? I didn't ask, since in the past, that has not proven to be a productive strategy. I figured if he wanted to tell me more and explore the topic, he would. Of course, he didn't.

I do see it as a possibility that he's examining his own behavior. Or it could be that in a moment of non-alcohol clarity he's realized that his behavior has something to do with me distancing myself somewhat from him. I did appreciate that he was offering an apology of sorts but, having learned better, I did not think it would change much. I guess I'm in a perennial "watch and see" mode.

Some years ago he was going through old letters and mementos and he read an excerpt of a letter from his first wife, who he married as a teenager when they were in college. The marriage didn't last long and the letter was sort of a kiss-off from a woman who was obviously very intelligent and articulate, even as a very young person. In essence it stated that he had no inclination or ability to self-reflect. As I heard him read that and it obviously was very wounding to him at the time, I thought how true it remained, even decades later.

Even if it were possible to fall "heads over heels" in love again, I would opt not to. I really don't want to have the blinders on and get hit by the proverbial Mack truck when I least expect it.

You touch on some more points that are relevant, Notwendy:
1. His desire to be "perfect" or at least seen to be "perfect" by those around him--how exhausting that must be--the search for the unattainable perfection!

2. This desire for being "loved" like how it was in the beginning--well that's a set-up destined to fail--too much information that I now hold, so it's impossible

3. Yes, the loss of tangible self-esteem from his work. It's finally occurred to me that much of what I previously ascribed to "laziness" is rather due to not knowing how to do things or feeling insecure about doing them.

I've tried a new strategy lately. The other day I had to rush off for an appointment when he had left dirty dishes in the sink and the dishwasher was still full of clean dishes that hadn't been put away. I just piled my breakfast dishes on top of his and left. Hours later when I returned, the dishes hadn't been touched, so I ignored them and finally he put away the clean dishes and loaded the dishwasher.

It pains me to ignore a mess, but I realize that this is his strategy--leave it for me and I'll clean up. The same day I ignored the pool cover becoming filled with rainwater. Usually I hook up the pump and drain it. Surprisingly he had done that in my absence.

Interesting lesson for me: if I don't do it, he might... .eventually.



 

[Notwendy]

My H will do some things too, but on his own time. Sometimes he just digs his heels in. If I ask him to take out the trash, sometimes he will do it, and sometimes the bag just sits there until he gets around to it. Some things I just don't ask. He doesn't cook- I have cooked meals since we were married, but he would refuse to help with the dishes. Eventually I just gave up. The argument would last longer than the time it takes to do them.

Sometimes I see couples on TV cooking together and then sharing the clean up. It's a nice social time together. It looks like something from another planet to me, although I did date someone before I met my H who did this with me so I know this is possible. My H was adamant about not doing this. I didn't see this as a red flag but I also didn't understand it.

His parents are very traditional. Mama cooks, dad comes to the table, eats, and then walks away to do his own thing. I also took on the traditional role in my family, but I liked the companionship of sharing meal prep and child care sometimes- even if I didn't mind taking on most  of it- but it didn't happen. It seemed very black and white with him when it came to this.

My home life was more like - we came home from school, mom was in some kind of bad mood and so Dad took us somewhere to eat and get out of her hair. So neither of us had the kind of role models for a more social meal time or teamwork over things growing up and I guess we had difficulty achieving that.

Did your H come from a very academic family or grow up in a city? He may not have been exposed to ideas like taking care of animals, yardwork, handyman skills if his family focus was on school and homework.

We take our backgrounds into our relationship and there are emotions attached. In my H's family, domestic work was strictly mama's job and daddy would have none of it. My H's idea of a man was based on this, and asking him to help in the kitchen was implying he was not manly. My mother didn't cook and so I didn't associate this with only a female role. It isn't the dishes but the emotions behind this.

Also if your H had a controlling mother, he may balk at your requests.

[Cat Familiar]

My H will do some things too, but on his own time. Sometimes he just digs his heels in. If I ask him to take out the trash, sometimes he will do it, and sometimes the bag just sits there until he gets around to it.

I've given up on asking him to do anything with the exception of very minor things that only take a couple of minutes of his time. The other day the donkey had a sore foot. I wanted to examine it thoroughly, but she was very protective of it, unlike her usual manner. Rather than tie her to something, where I thought she might freak out if she felt too confined, I asked him to hold the lead rope. He was very good at being comforting to her while I checked her out and I was very appreciative of the help.

Did your H come from a very academic family or grow up in a city? He may not have been exposed to ideas like taking care of animals, yardwork, handyman skills if his family focus was on school and homework.

We take our backgrounds into our relationship and there are emotions attached. In my H's family, domestic work was strictly mama's job and daddy would have none of it. My H's idea of a man was based on this, and asking him to help in the kitchen was implying he was not manly.

My husband's extremely narcissistic father, yes a malignant narcissist, was a mostly-failed entrepreneur, who brought the family all over the world with him as he pursued his business dreams and furthered his academic credentials. He did not teach his son, my husband, anything about home maintenance or repair, and apparently any work done in the home was either done by his wife or servants--and his wife sure sounded like a servant from reports I've heard.

As a young man, my husband wanted to learn about cooking from his mother, but she told him that was not an appropriate activity for him to engage in. So academics and sports were the only parental approved pastimes.

His mother was a sweetheart while his father was a tyrant.

[Notwendy]

Cat- how does this sound? Academics and sports were the only way your H may have gotten anything positive from his parents- so this is his source of approval. All the things you do- he didn't do - or can't do, and doesn't have any experience of emotional reward. His motivation to do them is probably low.

The donkey- you needed his help. It wasn't something you could do alone well. Many things you ask him to do- you do better and you don't really need him. But you did this time and he probably felt he was genuinely helping you.

My H's father was verbally critical and often put my H down. I honestly think he felt threatened by my H who was very bright as a kid. My MIL did everything but my H did some "manly" things around the house. Had he so much as touched a dish to wash it, I think his dad would have been all over him calling him a namby pamby- not because he believed it but it was his way of joking around. ( not a good way).

So there is no way my H will do dishes.

An idea is to ask your H things he can feel he is really contributing and give him lots of positive reinforcement. Then he might catch on that helping you is good for him too.

[believer55]

My initial question referred to how I could get over having my stomach in knots when in his presence whilst he's in a bad mood. There's no way I could try to change his mood--once he gets into one of those down in the dumps phases, he's very attached to staying there. Sometimes for days. Occasionally I've made him laugh and he's forgotten to be grumpy for a couple of minutes. Then he catches himself and goes right back into the black hole.

This is me today! Cat - I have been on these boards for a while now and you have been here longer. I think no matter how many techniques we learn to make sure our pwBPD is treated fairly, in an understanding manner, with love and respect - we are not machines. We have feelings of our own and we have energy limits.

After 3 good weeks (we were struggling to get 10 good days) my H is now struggling again. Last night I dared mention he was letting his son disobey a rule we had set for his 2 and my 2 teens and that was it. Last night I was locked out of my own bedroom, told all the things I need to change about myself, yelled at and lectured... .you, you, you, you... .

In my head I know I should validate etc but I was tired. I told him I understood where he was coming from (he was saying I attacked him verbally even though the question was raised very calmly) but he does not hear this at all when he is elevated. Have not spoken with him today but the anxious feelings about going home are there and today are hard to calm down. I know I have the right to feel angry about being locked out of my own bedroom (thankfully my kids were at their other house) but I know there is no way I can express that without another melt down. I feel I have to keep my feeling locked away so I can try to communicate with him on a sane level.

No matter how much reading or learning I do - there will be times my feelings are overwhelming and I don't know what to do with them. I am thinking of you and hoping things have calmed down. I am planning on avoiding going home and going for a beach walk. I will tell myself I have the right to feel upset but will try not to let those feelings overtake me.

B

[formflier]

In my head I know I should validate etc but I was tired. 

No matter how much reading or learning I do - there will be times my feelings are overwhelming and I don't know what to do with them. 

Instead of being who you think he needs you to be... this wonderful person that validates and "responds appropriately"... .be yourself... .be honest... .authentic, but in a healthy and succinct way.

"I'm really tired and likely won't be a good conversationalist... .can we just snuggle for a bit?"

It is on you to be prepared for him to flip out... in which case you should walk away.  Or he may just not snuggle... who knows. 

Then, next day when are no longer tired, get back in the validation game.

When your feelings are overwhelming... .own that... let your pwBPD know and then YOU go take care of your feelings, perhaps ask specifically for something your pwBPD could do for you (while not counting on it).

Thoughts?

FF

[Notwendy]

Believer, I think saying anything with a hint of correction is extremely triggering. Not that we shouldn't speak up for ourselves, but to realize the potential reaction and be prepared for it ( as much as possible ).

Sensitivity to criticism, or perceived criticism is a real dilemma. Since my H's father was verbally critical, it didn't take much to trigger a sense of shame and also a reaction. He is not likely to receive it well- and feels attacked. If he feels attacked- then he retaliated verbally. I think this is what happened with you and your H.

Sometimes this happened without any intention on my part- I may have said something - but it was heard as a "criticism" that I didn't intend. Or failed to do something that felt validating or sometimes it just seemed to happen out of nowhere. These things would take me off guard and upset me.

Until I decided that I have no control over what someone thinks. If I say the sky is blue and they feel attacked, I have no control over that. I don't feel a need to "validate" that perspective- it doesn't have any validation. I also don't engage in these conversations- I try to say something brief with a caring tone and disengage.

My 12 step co-dependency sponsor worked with me to focus on my feelings and avoid saying the word "you" to my H. This was not to walk on eggshells but to practice staying on "my side of the street"- what is possible for me to change or do, and what is not. A concept in 12 steps is "taking someone else's inventory" which is not something to do. We take our own inventory.

I have also heard terms like " you are attacking me" "you are hammering me". These sound violent and it is interesting to hear them. The reality is that I tend to be soft spoken and I am smaller than he is. The idea that I am "attacking" is odd- but if this is how he feels then he is going to be in "fight back" mode.

Reactivity is another concept. I try not to be reactive to the defense mode and focus on my feelings- making an "I" statement instead of a "you".

"I am feeling nervous in this discussion and need a moment to chill out " then be silent.

So back to letting his kid break the rule. This is tough. I think he wants his kids to like him and may have trouble saying no. PwBPD have issues with boundaries and self esteem. His kid may get angry and he may fear this. Ironically, nons and pwBPD can share some similar issues like this. So how do you say something without triggering him? You probably can't avoid the trigger, so be prepared for your response to the storm. Avoid "you" if possible. " Honey, we had an agreement about this rule for the children and I would like to discuss it". Then if he blows up- say " let's discuss this later"  and take it from there.

Some things I don't discuss without a counselor. Our MC was able to coach us through highly emotional discussions. When things escalated, I would say- let's discuss this in counseling. This was very helpful.

[Notwendy]

One great point our MC made is that- we don't have the relationship skills to have discussions about emotionally charged issues. If we did, there wouldn't be these problems. One is that I too am sensitive to my H's moods. I also get upset when I am "accused" of having mean intentions. I think most of the time my intentions are good.

Why is this? They say we match with people who trigger our own childhood issues and this gives us a chance to work on them. This changed my attitude to these episodes from fear to opportunity. I got to pay attention to my own triggers and not be so reactive to them.

Anger is a trigger. Makes sense. If BPD mother was angry, we were in trouble. That is threatening as a child. Children have few choices. As an adult, I can excuse myself from the conversation. ( this does not apply to physical abuse- that is a true danger).

I am sensitive to people's moods because I was blamed for my mother's bad moods and also expected to do something about it. However, now, I know that I am not responsible for other people's feelings. I don't have to solve or soothe them.

Once I became less reactive to other people's feelings, these episodes occur less. It's tough to let someone else manage their own bad feelings- but this is what we need to do- and we also need to learn to manage our own bad feelings when this happens.

[flourdust]

One take-away from this thread (and the board as a whole) is that if there even is such a thing as a perfect, harmonious relationship, there definitely isn't one with a pwBPD. Each of us can figure out where our relationship is on a sliding scale from Horrid through Unpleasant to Tolerable to Pleasant Enough ... .and then decide where do you want to be on the scale ... .where can you realistically get to ... .and what kind of changes to make or tools to use to move in that direction.

Going from Horrid to Unpleasant is a basic triage skill here.

Going from Unpleasant to Tolerable or Tolerable to Pleasant Enough takes more time and effort ... .and not all relationships can move that far.

You may decide that you want to be at Pleasant Enough, but your relationship can only progress to Tolerable. Then it's up to you to determine if it's worth putting in the work to get to Tolerable, or if you should end it and move on.

[formflier]

   

Some things I don't discuss without a counselor. Our MC was able to coach us through highly emotional discussions. When things escalated, I would say- let's discuss this in counseling. This was very helpful.

Notwendy,

Would you mind sharing examples of how this has played out in your relationship.

I have taken this "stance" in my r/s and... .for the moment, it appears the result is that my social security won't be talked about at all, which I am OK with.

My wife wanted to discuss my SSDI with me and was asking me questions and then over-talking while I tried to answer.  I made an appointment with P and invited my wife, she said she would not come.  I went anyway.  She has tried to bring it up a time or two since then and I haven't engaged. 

She "believes" we "should" be able to talk about it outside of a counselor office... ."and I wasn't overtalking". 

If you could walk us through how this developed in your r/s and how often this gets used I would appreciate it.

FF

[Cat Familiar]

Cat- how does this sound? Academics and sports were the only way your H may have gotten anything positive from his parents- so this is his source of approval. All the things you do- he didn't do - or can't do, and doesn't have any experience of emotional reward. His motivation to do them is probably low.

The donkey- you needed his help. It wasn't something you could do alone well. Many things you ask him to do- you do better and you don't really need him. But you did this time and he probably felt he was genuinely helping you.

My H's father was verbally critical and often put my H down. I honestly think he felt threatened by my H who was very bright as a kid... .An idea is to ask your H things he can feel he is really contributing and give him lots of positive reinforcement. Then he might catch on that helping you is good for him too.

Notwendy, this is spot on!  I think our husbands had a very similar upbringing. Of course he's intimidated and unmotivated to do things for which he has no experience. I totally get that. I remember how I felt when I needed to build something and I had no experience, no help. I dove in, made a lot of mistakes, got through it, laughed when someone who knew what they were doing looked at my project crosseyed, learned how to do it better the next time. Now I'm willing to tackle lots of things and thank goodness for YouTube, I've fixed toilets, diagnosed electrical problems, etc. and can converse intelligently with contractors. But it took a long time and a lot of learning to get there. So without motivation--I get why he would be reluctant to help me.

It's kind of like mentoring a child. I wouldn't ask a kid to do something complex beyond their level of experience. But asking for help in simple ways and being appreciative, I think means a lot to him and over time will help build some sense of self-esteem that he missed in his FOO due to having such a mean and nasty father. And like your husband's father, I think my FIL was really threatened by how intelligent my H is. When he graduated from prep school at the top (the very top) of his class, his father barely attended the graduation ceremony and said NOTHING to his son.

[Cat Familiar]

This is me today! Cat - I have been on these boards for a while now and you have been here longer. I think no matter how many techniques we learn to make sure our pwBPD is treated fairly, in an understanding manner, with love and respect - we are not machines. We have feelings of our own and we have energy limits.

Hi believer,
I hope things are better today. I agree with FF that you need to be honest and authentic to yourself and take time for yourself to get to a stronger place where you're not so impacted by his mood. (Easy to say, I know.)

Also, once my husband is dysregulated, I've learned that validation or any communication from me is pointless, so at that point I throw in the towel and take care of my own feelings.

I think that so many of us here feel like we can "cope" and that our immediate response is to try and "manage" our loved ones feelings, and in the process wear ourselves down by not taking care of own needs. I was trained by my BPD mother to feel responsible for her feelings and I've carried that thought through most of my life.

Conversely, who is taking care of my feelings? NOBODY, with the exception of ME, when I remember to do so. So why on earth is it my job to take care of his feelings? It's not.

So, as FF often says, take your ears elsewhere when he's yelling at you or lecturing you. "I can't discuss this right now. We can talk in the morning."

He may never be a "safe" person to share your feelings with, so hopefully you have friends and family with whom you can share or please continue to post here. But certainly when his emotions are boiling over, he will never have any interest in hearing about your feelings; it will only come across as an attack.

Thanks for asking about me. I've been doing well lately. I think I was just rundown during the holidays and as always, I deal with his seasonal depression and anger with his family. I know it's coming every year, so next year I'll plan to take more time to recharge my batteries and spend less time listening to his litany of complaints about his sisters!

Cat

[Cat Familiar]

Believer, I think saying anything with a hint of correction is extremely triggering. Not that we shouldn't speak up for ourselves, but to realize the potential reaction and be prepared for it ( as much as possible ).

Sensitivity to criticism, or perceived criticism is a real dilemma. Since my H's father was verbally critical, it didn't take much to trigger a sense of shame and also a reaction. He is not likely to receive it well- and feels attacked. If he feels attacked- then he retaliated verbally. I think this is what happened with you and your H.

Sometimes this happened without any intention on my part- I may have said something - but it was heard as a "criticism" that I didn't intend. Or failed to do something that felt validating or sometimes it just seemed to happen out of nowhere. These things would take me off guard and upset me.

Until I decided that I have no control over what someone thinks. If I say the sky is blue and they feel attacked, I have no control over that. I don't feel a need to "validate" that perspective- it doesn't have any validation. I also don't engage in these conversations- I try to say something brief with a caring tone and disengage.

My 12 step co-dependency sponsor worked with me to focus on my feelings and avoid saying the word "you" to my H. This was not to walk on eggshells but to practice staying on "my side of the street"- what is possible for me to change or do, and what is not. A concept in 12 steps is "taking someone else's inventory" which is not something to do. We take our own inventory.

Some great suggestions, Notwendy. I'm not a parent, but I dated a man who had a young daughter who twisted him around her finger. Rules meant nothing and because he only had part-time custody and wanted to be her friend, not her parent, she manipulated him expertly. Unfortunately the end result of that type of parenting didn't work out well and many years later, when she was an adult with big problems, he ran into me and confided that he wished he had listened to what I was telling him about rules and boundaries. It was a sad moment for me, but years earlier I saw the writing on the wall and decided that I wasn't going to be the wicked step mother in that family.

My husband's sensitivity to criticism occasionally allows me an internal laugh, certainly not an outward smile or any other sign. Good thing I've got a great poker face! 

Though our political feelings are generally on the same page, there are times he's much more extreme than I am, since I don't see things in black and white. If I'm not equally incensed by something, then he can interpret that as "criticism" even though in general, I agree with him. I no longer have the need or desire to defend my position, I just say something like "Interesting... ."

[Cat Familiar]

One take-away from this thread (and the board as a whole) is that if there even is such a thing as a perfect, harmonious relationship, there definitely isn't one with a pwBPD. Each of us can figure out where our relationship is on a sliding scale from Horrid through Unpleasant to Tolerable to Pleasant Enough ... .and then decide where do you want to be on the scale ... .where can you realistically get to ... .and what kind of changes to make or tools to use to move in that direction.

When I initiated marriage counseling with a psychologist a few years ago, a year or two before I joined this board, my relationship was unpleasant, bordering on horrid at times. Though we went for a year, he participated reluctantly and thought every session was an opportunity to get "beaten up on" so not much was accomplished, but our communication was marginally improved.

A year or so later, I was feeling hopeless and uncomfortable and I started individual therapy with the same woman and also joined BPD family. I was very surprised to hear my therapist's assessment that my husband was "abusive". I knew it was unpleasant, but my previous marriage had involved such extreme physical and verbal abuse that it hadn't really registered as "abusive" to me, by comparison. She also told me that my husband had a personality disorder and she saw it more as narcissism rather than BPD. I understand that he appeared more NPD to her because he saves most of the BPD stuff for private times at home.

My first few years on this board were consumed with my anger, which never really had full expression ever, due to having a perennial pwBPD in my life: mother, first husband, second husband. I had a tremendous amount of resentment that had built up, which I shared here. Thank you everyone for tolerating this.  

At this point, I feel rather free, which allows me a lot more creative use of the tools, since my own anger doesn't get in the way. And perhaps because I no longer have that buried, simmering resentment, my husband doesn't pick up on that anger and therefore is less defensive himself.

Also, I've learned to step away from the drama and things are going very well most of the time. My therapist has even offered to "fire" me a few times and recently I've decreased my appointments from monthly to every other month. I still like going because I want to be accountable to someone else. Perhaps my next step will be to go quarterly. It's really nice to have someone who has seen me in crisis now see me with an occasional hiccup.

For those of you wondering how your dream relationship turned into a nightmare: there can be hope. I saw that with qualifications. I don't think there was a possibility of salvaging my first marriage. That husband was physically abusive, a cheater, a law breaker. I thank my lucky stars that I got away alive.

[Notwendy]

FF, I will try to explain, but I think one difference is that your wife wants to talk to you and in my situation, I was the one wanting to talk about things. Perhaps this is a bit Venus and Mars- where it is said women deal with things through talking first and men tend to take action. I don't think all stereotypes apply all the time, but it was the case with us.

One issue is that you brought your wife to your counselor. I naively tried this. I was in counseling and wanted my H to come too.  The session was my desperate attempt to fix issues. His impression was that the counselor and I were in kahoots and I brought him there so we could gang up on him. He refused to go to MC for many years. After my father passed away, our marital issues escalated. I think - with grief- I didn't have the level of emotional attention/enabling behavior in our marriage. Honestly -at the time, I just didn't give a darn and my H must have sensed a difference and so he finally agreed. 

I let him pick the MC.  She focused on me. I got the "label" - codependency. The MC had to be someone I did not meet before or know before. I also avoided any private consultation with her to avoid the "gang up " impression.

The things I won't talk about without help from the MC are typical ones:

Finances are tough to discuss and we did discuss them in MC and come to an agreement but he didn't follow through. I had to accept that we have differences in ideas about how money should be managed and he's not going to change.  It is also hard for me to intervene as he is the main wage earner. But thankfully we do meet our needs and  the kids will be able to attend college and that means a lot to me- so I don't make an issue out of the rest. Your situation is different as your wife has made decisions that could potentially harm your financial stability and I think the solution ( albeit difficult ) is to have firm boundaries on the money you get from SSI

Sex- forget talking about that.

So how do I not talk about these things? First, I don't bring them up. If he does, I focus on me with "I" statements

"I don't think I can talk about this without the help of MC, let's make an appointment"

Sometimes he'd start talking and I would just clam up. " I am feeling uncomfortable and need a time out".  Yes, things could escalate after that,  but it takes two to participate. I just stopped my side of it.

I became aware of what is "drama bait"- a topic or statement that could draw my attention into a heated or circular discussion. This is a familiar and reinforcing pattern. I used the addiction model for this. I don't have issues with drugs or alcohol, but I learned to see this as my addiction- so desperate for intimacy that I'd even get into this for it. Perhaps also a form of intimacy to him- if I placed all my attention on this in the moment. And an emotional rush as well. So I learned to see this as relationship drugs- and that I had to stay emotionally sober for my own sake.

[5xFive]

You are all so wise.
I feel the anger and resentment still and I know it makes me defensive with my h. We are still in the unpleasant bordering on horrid stage I guess, and I see my role in it.
I think I can learn a lot from this post. I am often boundary-less and I like notwendy’s addiction model. I still get drawn into the circular arguments and I think you’re right, I’m searching for more intimacy.

[formflier]

So, when you stop talking and offer MC talk, does he go now?  Are you able to talk through things there to some sort of resolution.

FF

[Notwendy]

Yes, he does. It was helpful. She acted like a moderator but she also coached us with how to discuss things. We have not been in a while- he has actually learned better.

Why? there are several factors- I think one is that I don't think he has full blown BPD like my mother has- I see traits in him that also fit my own issues, but I don't think they are unsurmountable. Maybe some people would, but having been raised by the extreme ( and it was, believe me) my situation seems mild. Since doing this kind of work though, I have actually gotten through to my mother as well, which seems just amazing- but I am not married to her and don't live with her, so the relationship is much different.

What happened though felt a bit like the little red hen. I did a lot of work, relatively more personal work than he did.  He is not really willing to be introspective or look at himself, at least not being forthcoming with it. It triggers a lot of shame to look at his own mistakes but I think he does it in private.

The MC was very wise to focus on me. It did make me feel angry and that it was unfair to be the target and not address some obvious behaviors on his part, but she knew that if she did, he would walk out and not come back, like the session I tried before with my counselor.

She fit him well- shared his sense of humor. It didn't hurt that she is pretty. Yes, she is very professional but he took a liking to her and seemed willing to work with her. She has a male partner who we could also see- but he refuses to see a man. I think a male would be very bad for him as he would see his critical father in him.

When I think of my BPD mother as an example, she sees people as either on "her side" or "not her side" and the same with therapists. Therapists have not been effective with her- she is too affected and truly believes nothing is wrong with her and everything is someone else's fault. But she was willing for a bit to see a T about my father's issues and stated "this T is on my side". Whether she was or not, if my mother perceived this, she was more likely to respond. I do think that with couples- working with the issues for either one gets results for both. When the T was talking to me, she was really talking and coaching us both- but my H could listen and not feel he was on the spot.

So FF- if you wish to try this- it may mean letting your wife choose the T and being the focus as "your issues" are brought up. Of course, this means a qualified insightful T so IMHO you might want to avoid the pastor route- as this takes experience and skill and a pastor is skilled in other things- the focus of that work even if they have counseling skills- you've been this route before. If she prefers a Christian T, there are Christian T's with professional credentials who work as T's - not pastors.

Let her also consider the gender and personality and see who might fit your wife well. Gender has nothing to do with competence but perhaps comfort level. Once your wife feels comfortable with someone and feels he/she is on "her side" she may be more amenable to talking. However, talking doesn't mean compliance. My H agreed with the ideas for financial discussions in the sessions, but he isn't going to do it. I do bring up some things- and get the expected reaction ( circular argument, criticisms, etc) but the best thing the MC taught me was to stay calm and not react. Table it, try again later. Eventually we got to it but the key is I have to stay calm the whole time and not react to the drama bait ( distraction )

[formflier]

Strategically... .I've done my work and gotten to a place I'm fine with not talking about it.  I can handle my finances and medical care just fine... .perhaps better... without interference.

Now that the discussion is firmly about ethics and accountability with counselors and pastors... .anyone really... .my wife is very shy to get into any situation with oversight and accountability. 

I do totally understand and empathize that looking at her own stuff is not the most pleasant thing to do. 

Also, the thing about being on sides is a big deal for her.

We'll see.

FF

[Cat Familiar]

His impression was that the counselor and I were in kahoots and I brought him there so we could gang up on him.

This gives me a chuckle, Notwendy, because it was exactly my experience with MC. I'm glad you found a therapist that your husband was comfortable with.

This kahoots business must be something common with personality disorders, namely BPD. When I took my mother to a lawyer to draw up a trust, she was convinced that I was scheming with him and was planning on taking everything she owned and turning her out on the street to be a bag lady. She even concocted a story that his secretary injected her with some mind control drug so that she would be compliant and sign the papers.

[Cat Familiar]

Also, the thing about being on sides is a big deal for her.

Yes, the "sides" thing is omnipresent in every discussion that my husband has with me about conflicts with other people. If I (stupidly) try and explain what I think their motivation might have been for what they said or did, then I'm automatically on "their side". It's happened enough that I now just keep my mouth shut and ask him to clarify what he's thinking and feeling and he gets bored talking about it. 

[Notwendy]

That's crazymaking. I don't see it as much with my H as I do with my mother. I think it is part of the drama triangle- someone is either in persecutor ( not my side) or rescuer mode- while she is in victim mode.

This model really helped me see how someone with BPD interprets things.

I also learned in my 12 step groups that adult children are sensitive to criticism- which means we can be sensitive as well. The family dynamics in an alcoholic family are similar to those in a family with a disordered person. Family members take on roles of rescuer/enabler in both family types.

If we feel criticized or have hurt feelings as a result of something our spouses or parent said or did, it is difficult to get that situation resolved as then the other person is not in victim mode. I think when they are doing/saying the mean things, they feel they are in victim mode and are just defending themselves and either don't see that what they are doing is hurtful or feel justified to hurt back.

I wonder, Cat, if when your H is in a bad mood, he is perceiving himself in victim mode.

Sometimes it isn't even intentional when we say or do something. Once I got this model to use, some of the behaviors began to make sense and it helped me not be reactive to them. I distinctly recall a conversation where I gave some advice to my mother and she just went wild " You are telling me I am not competent" and it made no sense. In the past, this would have hurt my feelings and I would have reacted back from a hurt place. Two people in Victim mode is a recipe for a circular argument. Sometimes my H would perceive what I said or did as a criticism or rejection when it wasn't meant to be and react as well. I was walking on eggshells fearing this reaction- but once I could recognize it and not take it personally the dragged out issues seemed to diminish.

I also had to watch my own sensitivity and what kinds of things upset me when they are not personal or intentional. We may not have the same reactions or behaviors but we do share some overlapping traits with our spouses. Something to think about.

[formflier]

The "two people in victim mode" comment struck home to me. 

Knowing that my wife lives there, the dust up I had last night seems to make sense when I look at it as me being "hurt" and going into victim mode, which freaked my wife out so she doubled down or potentially switched to persecutor.

The details of the dustup would just take up space (accusations against me to my children... in front of me... .with me stating it was inappropriate for kids to hear or be part of)  She seemed to claim she was loving God by doing it.  (you guys can fill in the other few paragraphs)

FF

[Sunfl0wer]

Yup, victim mode/drama triangle stuff also explains why I was never allowed to be ill in front of him.  He would either be in denial, ignore me, or persecute me.

[Notwendy]

Yes, in retrospect, this started a downward spiral early in my marriage.

When I met my H, I was in caretaker overdrive. I didn't know this was a problem. Growing up in my FOO, that was my role since my preteens. I also observed my father do this. This was my normal: "if you love someone this is what you need to do to get love and approval".

This must have appealed to my H who early on was the recipient of all this caretaking. Somehow I got the idea that if I did this- I might get more love. That didn't even work well in my FOO, but I also learned that you do not dare ask for any of this in return from BPD mom so I didn't.

Then, we started a family. I was not a happy pregnant woman. I loved the results ( the babies) but not the nausea, fatigue, and indigestion. I assumed my H could see that this was not about him, but a temporary phase for wonderful reasons. In the movies, I saw husbands help out- so why not him?

I had no clue that, in this situation ,I was taking "victim" perspective, not in a hurt way but as a person needing him to understand and help. To him, what he saw was a decrease in caretaking, less desire for sex ( falling asleep as soon as my head hit the pillow at night, or nausea in the morning) and took this as a cold hearted rejection. His reasoning: if you loved me you would overcome how you feel. Since I didn't, I didn't love him.

To me, I saw him switch into cold and cruel at a time I needed him to be supportive. I had absolutely no idea why and this puzzled me . Then I took victim position. This started years of conflict, drama triangle and hurt feelings between both of us.

It is better now that this model helps me to not take these things personally- and to not react like it did.

[Cat Familiar]

That's crazymaking. I don't see it as much with my H as I do with my mother. I think it is part of the drama triangle- someone is either in persecutor ( not my side) or rescuer mode- while she is in victim mode.

Yeah, I feel like I've totally stepped into it when baited with one of these "so and so said/did this and it made me feel bad and I wondered why they'd say/do that" then I've said, "oh, they probably meant blah, blah, blah" and then suddenly we're on the drama triangle with me being the Persecutor "defending" the other party.

I think when they are doing/saying the mean things, they feel they are in victim mode and are just defending themselves and either don't see that what they are doing is hurtful or feel justified to hurt back.

I wonder, Cat, if when your H is in a bad mood, he is perceiving himself in victim mode.

I think victimhood is his perennial go-to place. It doesn't take much--maybe someone at the post office isn't as friendly some day. Then boom!

Sometimes it isn't even intentional when we say or do something. Once I got this model to use, some of the behaviors began to make sense and it helped me not be reactive to them. I distinctly recall a conversation where I gave some advice to my mother and she just went wild " You are telling me I am not competent" and it made no sense. In the past, this would have hurt my feelings and I would have reacted back from a hurt place. Two people in Victim mode is a recipe for a circular argument. Sometimes my H would perceive what I said or did as a criticism or rejection when it wasn't meant to be and react as well. I was walking on eggshells fearing this reaction- but once I could recognize it and not take it personally the dragged out issues seemed to diminish.

Yeah, I've had to "harden" my shell around my husband. This is diametrically opposed to what I think a romantic relationship should be. There's that damn "should". However, I'm a pragmatist. And I don't like feeling vulnerable and easily hurt. Intellectually I understand and can distance myself, but emotionally I grieve that I will never feel truly "safe" around this person.

[Notwendy]

I felt I had to have a hard shell too- for a long time- years actually. Lately though I feel like the shell is about right- not too soft like it used to be but not too hard either. I know I felt unsafe- but ( there is no risk of physical abuse ) I don't feel unsafe now. I may not like it if things get wierd- but somehow the crazy stuff doesn't seem personal to me like it did.

I know the tools say to validate but sometimes when I hear something that just sounds bizarre - that's what I think. I have even responded "that sounds insane ". It just slipped out.  I guess I wasn't guarded and it came out in a lighthearted way. There wasn't the typical reaction.

I think they can sense when we are being guarded and when we are being authentic. My wish is to be authentic as much as possible - and it is hard work but also I am who I am and if I like me- then if someone doesn't like me it doesn't change that.

I'm not perfect but I don't need to be perfect to like myself. I don't expect anyone else to be perfect either but I don't want to be mistreated. I think this is how "normal" people with regular boundaries are.  If someone says something to them that doesn't make sense - they don't try to see how that could be about them. If someone is in a bad mood- it's their bad mood not ours.

Your H is pretty high functioning. He may get pissy but he isn't going to hurt you physically. I admit I am not there with my mother - there is a lot more history there but I am there sometimes. It's always a work in progress- but Cat-  you are a strong person- his moods can become more like annoyances than something that affects you- and you might be more relaxed around him.

[Cat Familiar]

I felt I had to have a hard shell too- for a long time- years actually. Lately though I feel like the shell is about right- not too soft like it used to be but not too hard either. I know I felt unsafe- but ( there is no risk of physical abuse ) I don't feel unsafe now. I may not like it if things get wierd- but somehow the crazy stuff doesn't seem personal to me like it did.

It's easy for me to have good boundaries around other people, but FOO patterns dictated that all boundaries are dropped around loved ones. I've gotten past that, but still there's a shred of belief that in a romantic relationship, there should be enough trust and openness that one can be more transparent. Unfortunately, this doesn't seem to be the case when one partner has BPD. I can be waaaay more candid with my female friends.

I know the tools say to validate but sometimes when I hear something that just sounds bizarre - that's what I think. I have even responded "that sounds insane ". It just slipped out.  I guess I wasn't guarded and it came out in a lighthearted way. There wasn't the typical reaction.

LOL! Yes, it's really shocking when a highly intelligent, seemingly normal (for the most part) husband can say something that sounds cray cray.

I think they can sense when we are being guarded and when we are being authentic. My wish is to be authentic as much as possible... .If someone is in a bad mood- it's their bad mood not ours.

It's one thing to have intellectual understanding, quite another to have the autonomic nervous system suddenly take over. I'm working on utilizing strategies to override those moments.

[Mustbeabetterway]

Cat,  I have been reading this post and can so relate to the holidays, moods, etc.  Glad to hear that things are some better and you are able to stay in your own lane, so to speak, to achieve some peace

Just an additional note about MC.  My husband and I were separated and he agreed to go to just about anything to get back together.  I was seeing a female therapist and he didn’t want to see her, as she already knew me and he suspected that she would take “my side”.  So I found a male counselor that neither of us knew, and he was covered by our insurance.  He didn’t show up to the first appointment but I did.  So I met the therapist.  He went to the second appointment and felt judged.  Third appointment, in his opinion, the therapist was against him and it was BS. 

Also, I agree that seeing our part in the drama triangle enables us to step out of it and take a different action.

Lately, I’ve been studying “Don’t Let Your Emotions Run Your Life”.  The DBT techniques are strong tools and have helped me improve my communication.

I enjoy reading your posts and wish you the best!

Mustbe

[Harley Quinn]

This thread has been locked due to reaching it's size limit.  The host is welcome to begin a new thread in order to continue with this topic.

Thanks for your understanding.