It's easier to call a spade a spade when officially diagnosed

[Jeffree]

Is it me, or does it seem as though it's easier to call a spade a spade when that spade is officially diagnosed with BPD?

Like, when I was living with my STBx, if any of our marriage counselors had said she had BPD, I am pretty sure that would be the end of any hope I had to get back on track with her in a romantic sense, AND it would have put so so many things into a different perspective for me that would have altered my understanding of our whole relationship and I could have protected myself better.

Without the dx, I kept trying to get things right despite all the horribly abusive behaviors she engaged in with me and the kids. I kept putting out fires, we'd make up, then it would happen all over again, over and over and over, only it became harder and harder to make up and erase all the agony from the drama. Then it just became devoid of any pleasantries, no affection, no hope for any relief from her barrage of black thoughts toward me.

I don't know. It just seems like an official dx turns all those red flags into a run for the hills flag.

J

[Skip]

I don't know. It just seems like an official dx turns all those red flags into a run for the hills flag.

Most likely your wife is not clinically BPD. If she is, she would be on the low end of the spectrum. Most likely she has some "BPD like" traits. Clinical BPD is obvious.

Every year, 29% of the population has a DSM illness. There is a significant set of people that have an almost DSM diagnose illness, too. So we live in a world where half of the people are struggling with something. Add yourself in that - or me - one of us. 

Embracing this and learning how to navigate it so that we have a good life is the trick. Learning to read and understand human nature is what helps us.

Part of the problem is that I do not seem to be attracted to someone who can offer a healthy relationship. I'm not attracted to train wrecks, mind you, but definitely someone with a little edge to them... .

Unpack this... .tell us what you mean by

someone who can offer a healthy relationship someone with a little edge to them

Can you tell us more about these two personality types?

[Jeffree]

someone who can offer a healthy relationship
someone with a little edge to them

Just someone who "gets it." Someone who isn't going to fall to pieces when I swear when I stub my toe or can't get a heavy light fixture screwed into the ceiling (I grew up in the Bronx, after all.) yet someone who can give it as well. Someone who isn't going to be judge, jury and executioner over every little thing I say and fit it into some warped agenda against all mankind including me. Someone who can see me for me and give me the benefit of the doubt when I veer a little out of my usual lane, or am perceived as veering.

My STBx was infamous for saying I was just like every other guy and just wanted to get my weenie whacked. It was so insulting and dismissive. I hated being rolled into that weird agenda of hers.

J

[Skip]

(a)someone who can offer a healthy relationship
(b)someone with a little edge to them

I was asking what is the difference between the two - you like B, you're not attracted to A.

Just someone who "gets it." Someone who isn't going to fall to pieces when I swear when I stub my toe or can't get a heavy light fixture screwed into the ceiling (I grew up in the Bronx, after all.) yet someone who can give it as well. Someone who isn't going to be judge, jury and executioner over every little thing I say and fit it into some warped agenda against all mankind including me. Someone who can see me for me and give me the benefit of the doubt when I veer a little out of my usual lane, or am perceived as veering. My STBx was infamous for saying I was just like every other guy and just wanted to get my weenie whacked. It was so insulting and dismissive. I hated being rolled into that weird agenda of hers.

I think you need to raise the bar a lot higher than this. For your next partner. For you in your relationship.

[babyducks]

Is it me, or does it seem as though it's easier to call a spade a spade when that spade is officially diagnosed with BPD?

I am going to encourage you to look at this from a slightly different perspective Jeffree.


One size does not fit all.     One diagnosis, or the lack of it,... .is not the sum total of a relationship.

my ex was diagnosed with Bipolar 1 comorbid with BPD.   she was compliant with medication.   she was religious about therapy.    after 7 years of treatment she no longer met the criteria for a BPD diagnosis.

I don't know. It just seems like an official dx turns all those red flags into a run for the hills flag.

it seems to me that relationships have a lot of nuance too them.    a lot of complexity.    and subscribing to the idea that an official dx equals the kiss of death feels to me to be our own verion of splitting,  our own black and white thinking.

I absolutely respect the effort she put into improving and managing her mental health issues.    I absolutely believe she worked as hard as she could/can to build a meaningful and positive life.   

any illness,   mental or physical puts stress and strain on a relationship.    there was a lot of stress in mine.    that's why it failed.   not because of diagnosis or lack there of.

'ducks

[Duped 1]

Skip you made a comment above that clinical BPD is obvious. Can you please elaborate? I have read of many cases of high functioning BPDs that are diagnosed and where it was stated that people wouldn’t know unless they were very close to them so I’m just trying to understand.

[TurbanCowboy]

Skip you made a comment above that clinical BPD is obvious. Can you please elaborate? I have read of many cases of high functioning BPDs that are diagnosed and where it was stated that people wouldn’t know unless they were very close to them so I’m just trying to understand.

I can safely say my wife probably has 7 of the traits and she makes a six figure salary.  She’s in a very structured working environment which she needs.

She has exposed her immaturity around my family at times, but unless you were me you would never ever know what she is like...

I’ve said this before, I had family that adored her who would not have accepted her if they knew what went on behind closed doors.  Now my family would never accept her again, they know too much.

[Turkish]

My mother admitted to me she was BPD (she arm-chair diagnosed my ex,  which was why it was safe for her,  I think,  to admit it to me). It was anti climactic. The Dx is a grouping of behaviors. The behaviors are what we deal with,  good (idealization, passion in the case of a romantic partner) and bad,  not the Dx.

If my ex had admitted in the beginning to what she was clinically diagnosed with (depression and anxiety,  not BPD), I probably wouldn't have run for the hills,  though I picked up on social anxiety the first time I met her.  If I hadn't gone through the r/s, I wouldn't have known about BPD  (my conclusion). Even if I had,  I might have still gone forward, because something on paper is very different from something experienced. 

In hindsight, I can say now that yes,  I would run for the hills is someone admitted to BPD. Unless she were hot and was really into me *shakes head* No.

Given that,  I thought "BPD!" At the end of Year One. And I still chose to have not one (I didn't want to lose her) child,  then a second (I didn't want to lose her).

Where I ended up was the result of my choices. 

[Skip]

Skip you made a comment above that clinical BPD is obvious. Can you please elaborate? I have read of many cases of high functioning BPDs that are diagnosed and where it was stated that people wouldn’t know unless they were very close to them so I’m just trying to understand.

Third party diagnosis of BPD is outrageously high. The Internet contributes to this. So do therapists. Many will tell you your ex sounds like "_____", but put that same person in the chair as their client and its a different story.

Also, we have a tendency to equate how much someone has hurt us with how mentally ill they must be... .  the fact is the level of mental illness is related to how much they hurt themselves. 

Someone with only BPD traits can cause havoc in our lives. Someone with preclinical ADD can reek havoc in our lives. The idea that because they really hurt us they must be psychopaths is not valid. Just some preclinical traits is all it takes.

[babyducks]

Where I ended up was the result of my choices. 

True.    Very True.

I didn't always make poor choices.    Sometimes I made very good decisions.    sometimes I made good decisions only to have poor results.    and vice versa

looking back what I can see as under scoring, or under pinning almost all of my decisions was a lack of this:

Learning to read and understand human nature is what helps us.

I didn't have a good understanding of human nature.   Mine or the incredible width of possible human natures.   I often made assumptions.     Figuring out what was going on with some one else and accepting them  was a skill I had to work at.    I had some bad habits I needed to break.    Including putting people into little boxes.   I needed to think bigger.    to be more open to new ideas and as strange as it sounds my relationship helped me enormously with that.

The Dx is a grouping of behaviors. The behaviors are what we deal with,  good (idealization, passion in the case of a romantic partner) and bad,  not the Dx.

When I was first trying to figure all this out I clung to the Dx.   It made me feel like the 'healthy' one.    See it wasn't my fault... .look at who is mentally ill... . not me.    It's not my fault.

Now I see the fault/blame,  right/wrong,  healthy/psychopath stuff as a distraction from what I really need to focus on.

There are going to be people I run into every day who are both more healthy, and less healthy than I am.   I want to learn how to attract the more healthy into my life and compassionately cope with the less healthy.

'ducks

[Duped 1]

Third party diagnosis of BPD is outrageously high. The Internet contributes to this. So do therapists. Many will tell you your ex sounds like "_____", but put that same person in the chair as their client and its a different story.

Also, we have a tendency to equate how much someone has hurt us with how mentally ill they must be... .  the fact is the level of mental illness is related to how much they hurt themselves. 

Someone with only BPD traits can cause havoc in our lives. Someone with preclinical ADD can reek havoc in our lives. The idea that because they really hurt us they must be psychopaths is not valid. Just some preclinical traits is all it takes.

So I've also read that there are a lot more BPD's out there than there are diagnosed as many of the high functioning yet clinical cases would never seek treatment or acknowledge something is off about them. Do you disagree with this? is it just a difference of each therapist applying the criteria a little differently possibly and some looking at them as having significant traits and others looking at them as being clinical yet high functioning?

Thanks

[Jeffree]

the fact is the level of mental illness is related to how much they hurt themselves.

But I think that much of the self harm gets masked within the context of their relationships and how much their partner(s) are willing to do to help them/bail them out.

Even this hopping from person to person doesn't necessarily harm them, per se, as long as they can find constant sources for affection. Their horrendous money management problems don't harm them as long as they keep getting bankrolled by their SOs.

Isn't that a large part of the disorder, that one of their primary survival instincts is to not take responsibility for the consequences of their actions and lay blame to everyone/everything else? So where's the actual harm for them?

J

[Skip]

I'm glad we're having this discussion... .

So I've also read that there are a lot more BPD's out there than there are diagnosed... .

Cutting to the bottom line... .do you think your girlfriend had clinical levels of BPD? Her parents and her kids, who spent a lot more time with her than you, did they think/act so? They would surely know.  Read the boards here from parents of BPD kids and the boards of children of BPD parents. Was there risky behavior, money problems, self harm, etc. My recollection of your case was "none of the above".

Yes, your ex ran hot and cold on you with the relationship. That's hard.

Having "traits" could explain the hot and cold behavior. She has attachment issues. Traits and attachment issues are enough to make her very difficult. Link that to your life skills (you have had your own struggles and were pretty out of control in the end) and its not hard to imagine a very volatile relationship.

I'm not judging you Duped1, just trying to help you put this in perspective. We're here on this advanced board to do this.

As for your question above, my statement was that clinical BPD is pretty obvious to family and close friends - I didn't say anything about diagnosis is common. Many people with mental issues are not diagnosed. But it can still be obvious.

What percentage of alcoholics are diagnosed? Even though 30% of alcoholics have clinical mood disorders or anxiety.

But I think that much of the self harm gets masked within the context of their relationships and how much their partner(s) are willing to do to help them/bail them out.

I wasn't talking about self harm    My point is that BPD is disorder about another persons struggles, not about our struggles with them. They aren't in the DSM because they are problematic relationship partners... .more because of the disabilities BPD imparts of the person who has it - the most significant are the high suicide rates. There are also issues of emotional breakdowns, employment stability, self harm, etc. It is a disorder of extreme sensitivity and diminished executive function and attachment issues.

Isn't that a large part of the disorder, that one of their primary survival instincts is to not take responsibility for the consequences of their actions and lay blame to everyone/everything else? So where's the actual harm for them?

An over simplification for sure, but people with clinical levels of BPD are so loaded with shame and poor self image that if they face it head on they could destroy themselves... .most have been on that brink at one time or another... .so they go to extremes to avoid getting into the danger zone... .

[TurbanCowboy]

the fact is the level of mental illness is related to how much they hurt themselves.

But I think that much of the self harm gets masked within the context of their relationships and how much their partner(s) are willing to do to help them/bail them out.

Even this hopping from person to person doesn't necessarily harm them, per se, as long as they can find constant sources for affection. Their horrendous money management problems don't harm them as long as they keep getting bankrolled by their SOs.

Isn't that a large part of the disorder, that one of their primary survival instincts is to not take responsibility for the consequences of their actions and lay blame to everyone/everything else? So where's the actual harm for them?

J

If they don’t self harm, is creating arguments and getting yelled at a form of self harm?

[gotbushels]

Hi Jeffree   

Also, we have a tendency to equate how much someone has hurt us with how mentally ill they must be... .

I think this first part of the quote is quite important for recovery and understanding. Part of what I learned from acceptance is we want to access those great clean mindful glasses. Using them to assess situations improves how we understand it. In a pwBPD context, a non may see this piece of human tendency to "diagnose" others: "oh it's the BPD".

I think part of that having those clean glasses is accepting that it feels good to easily degrade our perceived level of their function relative to ours. It's a quick way to explain away a lot of things we don't really get.

it would have put so so many things into a different perspective for me that would have altered... .

I think yes, a professional's opinion would create a greater force of action for you to handle situations differently than without.

If they don’t self harm, is creating arguments and getting yelled at a form of self harm?

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong here--some disambiguation might help. Self harm in a BPD context is usually taken to mean self-mutilation. That's cutting and things like inflicting pain on the pwBPD's own body. So from there, I think being in arguments and getting yelled is a form of pain for anyone.

[Skip]

If they don’t self harm, is creating arguments and getting yelled at a form of self harm?

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong here--some disambiguation might help. Self harm in a BPD context is usually taken to mean self-mutilation. That's cutting and things like inflicting pain on the pwBPD's own body. So from there, I think being in arguments and getting yelled is a form of pain for anyone.

I think the context of the question is, can being argumentative be a proxy for cutting, and therefore can I check off another item in the 5 of 9 criteria of BPD.

In this context, absolutely not.

Part of the problem with this conversation we are having is that we are trying to define someones else mental illness based on how it affects us. I see members of the Detaching Board doing this for years. I believe it all stems from trying to define BPD with ourselves as ground zero or the epicenter.

You don't see this on the parents board or the Rebuilding Boards - mostly just detaching. Why? I think it fits a narrative that "we have no culpability" in the brokenness and demise of the relationship. Denial.

Many of us are like the getaway driver in a felony bank robbery or the non-shooter partner in a convenience store murder robbery saying, it was the other guy.

The minute we let go of denial, a lot of doors open to explain to us how our relationship broke down, what was bad relationship stuff by either party, and what was pathology. The picture becomes a lot less black/white and our "I did everything I could possibly do, but it didn't matter this was doomed to failure" quickly flies out the door.

We were in a bad relationship. We had a significant part in it. Sure maybe we only "drove the getaway car" or our "gun jammed", but we were part of the "crime". Look around at some of the things your fellow non's have done?  Or how they think?  There is some brokenness and/or lack of aptitude in many of us that needs work.

One comment made earlier was that a BPD's run from responsibility. Blame is doing just that.

[Jeffree]

Part of the problem with this conversation we are having is that we are trying to define someones else mental illness based on how it affects us.

I don't think that's what's happening here, but I do agree it does happen elsehwere.

I think people here have observed behaviors in their SO (against them or others) that they didn't appreciate and seemed random and inexplicable until learning about BPD. Upon learning about BPD, they make the observation/assumption the person had BPD and are better able to make what sense they can about why they have been treated this way and why the BPD has treated others similarly, too. That knowledge can spring them into action to protect themselves they might not have taken without knowing fully what they were up against.

It must be sort of like what a heavy person who can't lose weight realizes when they learn they have a glandular problem. "Ohhhh, that's why nothing I did has worked." And that should result in troubleshooting the problem in a different, probably more effective way.

But, yes, at many points along the way this was about us and our own issues, since we did let these people into our lives, accepted the behaviors to a certain level, and accepted abuse and did not act in our best interests and more.

J

[Skip]

But, yes, at many points along the way this was about us and our own issues, since we did let these people into our lives, accepted the behaviors to a certain level, and accepted abuse and did not act in our best interests and more.

It's really more than that. Some of us have punched our partners. Some of us have stalked them. Some of us have triggered all over them. Some of us have given silent treatment, pouted, manipulated, raged, cheated, self medicated. Some of us stayed for sex. Some have begged and cried to be loved.

Look at how many members identify with the Lonely Child schema.

I look back at my own relationship (my is 10 years past now) and while I didn't do the obvious stuff above (e.g., punching, raging, cheating, drinking, focus on sex), I was flipping into dysfunctional schema as a way to cope rather than reading what was going on (human nature) and dealing with it with emotional maturity and strength. I took those same skills into the next relationship with a very healthy person, and while we didn't have a tumultuous relationship (she was great), I was very observant of myself and I could see that my relationship and coping skills were not at her level. We didn't make it.

Look really hard. Be humble. You will see these things. It's hard, but you will. Tag them. Fight them to the ground. It's not easy. I remember when I started my journey of self-discovery I got silly advice like "the fact that you are asking these questions show that you are healthy".

Do emotionally strong and mature people accidentally stumble into relationships with deeply mentally ill people and get blown up - probably not.  Do "not so emotionally strong and mature people accidentally stumble into relationships with deeply mentally ill people and get blown up - more likely. 

I'm a different person now. My relationships are deeper and richer in all aspects of my life. My friends are healthier. My partner is healthier. We have other alumni that took the same journey and can say the same.

[BeagleGirl]

I think it fits a narrative that "we have no culpability" in the brokenness and demise of the relationship. Denial.

Many of us are like the getaway driver in a felony bank robbery or the non-shooter partner in a convenience store murder robbery saying, it was the other guy.

The minute we let go of denial, a lot of doors open to explain to us how our relationship broke down, what was bad relationship stuff by either party, and what was pathology.

I think I'm at an intermediate stage where I'm not trying to place all the blame on pwBPD.  I'm willing to spread that blame onto my FOO as well. 

It makes a lot of sense that understanding will come in stages and over time.  Self protective denial/blame shifting is not exclusive to pwBPD.  My hope is that I will be capable/willing to sit with the pain of facing my role in the dysfunction and demise of my relationship long enough to learn from it. I don't want to be doomed to the same patterns over and over again hoping that if I just find the right person, my unhealthy behaviors will be made healthy.

Going back to the question about whether it helps to have a formal diagnosis - I think that for a period of time it did help.  I had never heard of BPD until a couple months after I left my dBPDh.  He went through a mental health evaluation in an effort to be diagnosed as ADHD (he felt that would explain/excuse some of his behaviors).  The evaluator must have picked up on something, because she did a FULL evaluation.  She concluded that he did not have ADHD but that he fit the criteria for borderline and dependent personality disorders.  I didn't see the report until a few weeks later.  The first few weeks of processing his diagnosis brought me here and helped me put words to my experience and feel less alone.  Then I went through a period of learning about the tools that I could use to improve our relationship and the behaviors/patterns I have had in our relationship that have gotten us to where we are (I'm the queen of JADEing). 

Now I'm at a place where the diagnosis doesn't really mean that much.  The diagnosis puts words to some of his behaviors and helps me understand some of the thought patterns that influence those behaviors.  It has helped me find a community of people who more readily understand and relate to what I have experienced and the scars that are left behind by those experiences.  It's given me tools that help me interact in a more constructive manner with pwBPD.  BUT it doesn't change who he is or who I am.  If he got to a place where he no longer fit the clinical criteria for BPD that wouldn't ensure that he would be the kind of husband I am willing to live with.  There are plenty of people who don't fit the clinical criteria for BPD who aren't able/willing/ready to be in a healthy relationship, myself included. 

One step I feel is in my future, but that I haven't taken yet, is to have a level of compassion and understanding that his diagnosis with BPD should eventually bring.  At the moment it still feels too much like condoning or excusing his behavior.  That's one of the ways that I know I'm still in that mode of defining his BPD by how it impacts me.

BeagleGirl

[once removed]

i had a diagnosis. like babyducks, my ex was diagnosed with bipolar disorder (though not BPD). at the start of the relationship, she would blame much of her behavior on that, so i did too. over time, any outburst, any bad mood, anything she said that i disagreed with, i attributed to that. "oh shes having an episode". "nothing shes saying is valid". i did nothing useful and a lot of things dysfunctional with the information i had.

Some of us

some of us took a hammer to some cds over a silly squabble. some of us punched a hole in their own wall.  some of us got locked out of an apartment, raised holy hell, stood in front of their exs car and threatened to "beat the ____ out of it" and had security called.

a lot of the time those same people would tell you "im not dangerous or violent, i wouldnt hurt a fly. he/she pushed me into it." if someone were posting here that their ex did that, and said that, we would "call a spade a spade". when its us, we tend to collectively let ourselves off the hook.

and thats how i responded to the diagnosis that i did have, which supposedly explained it all. my attitude was sure, maybe i had some issues that werent helping, but that wasnt what was hurting the relationship, and if she were just healthier, i wouldnt be having these issues in the first place. taking responsibility was the furthest thing away from being part of the equation.

responsibility looks to me like: all of it, everything happened because thats the level i was operating at. its very important to me not to forget it, that i did those things, to see the skills i lacked, the life i was gravitating toward, or ive learned nothing.

BPD inherently means poor relationship and coping skills. the research, the literature, our stories and struggles, will tell you that the same tends to be true for long term partners of someone with BPD. i took that (after i shook off the pain, after a couple of years, after more bad relationships), not as a death sentence, but as the keys to freedom and a better future. today, someone with poor relationship and coping skills cant "blow me up", because im operating at a different level.

you made a comment above that clinical BPD is obvious. Can you please elaborate?

one of my very best and closest friends has BPD traits, a history of sexual abuse, drugs, self harm (neither in many many years), and unstable relationships. shes pretty low on the spectrum, shes a great mom, gets along great with most people, performs well at any job, shes a great, kind and compassionate, strong person, and presents as someone who you would think "poor gal, she just has bad luck in her relationships".

i also know someone who is diagnosed. ive never met her in person, and yet, it is very obvious. shes in and out of emergency treatments all the time. has attempted suicide multiple times. self medicates and self harms all the time. her friends and family are constantly worried about her whereabouts... .or theyre painted black and cut off. you wouldnt even have to know those things to immediately know something is off.

as a reference point, read a bit about the early life of marsha linehan: www.nytimes.com/2011/06/23/health/23lives.html?pagewanted=all

She learned the central tragedy of severe mental illness the hard way, banging her head against the wall of a locked room.

Marsha Linehan arrived at the Institute of Living on March 9, 1961, at age 17, and quickly became the sole occupant of the seclusion room on the unit known as Thompson Two, for the most severely ill patients. The staff saw no alternative: The girl attacked herself habitually, burning her wrists with cigarettes, slashing her arms, her legs, her midsection, using any sharp object she could get her hands on.

The seclusion room, a small cell with a bed, a chair and a tiny, barred window, had no such weapon. Yet her urge to die only deepened. So she did the only thing that made any sense to her at the time: banged her head against the wall and, later, the floor. Hard.

“My whole experience of these episodes was that someone else was doing it; it was like ‘I know this is coming, I’m out of control, somebody help me; where are you, God?’ ” she said. “I felt totally empty, like the Tin Man; I had no way to communicate what was going on, no way to understand it.”

[EdR]

Interesting discussion. I often posted that I sometimes feel that the BPD or BPD traits can sometimes just feel a little too convenient. So I like where this is going. Although I must say: there is no black and white here. I agree wholeheartedly that most cases in the Failed Relationship boards (especially mine) would be considered to be very mild BPD cases at best (or worst... .). I also agree that some stories seem to mirror the behaviour of a pwBPD; yelling, raging, abuse etc. etc... Personally, that makes me really sad.
But I don't like the label and thus I have always been very careful applying it. And I do believe a lot of members identify the traits correctly. Not just for their own peace of mind.
So there seems to be this quite large grey area in between 'clinical BPD' and 'think it's BPD, but it really is not'.

Some thoughts which just come to my mind right now:
-) I know for a fact that BPD is an unpopular diagnosis. It is often evaded until clear signs of self mutilation are present
-) I also know that the most leading experts on BPD tend to agree that 'self harm' does NOT equate self mutilation. But it can be any destructive behaviour really... .However, from a clinical POV the self-mutilation cases need help and intervention. The others do not.
-) Borderline was considered to be altered in the DSM criteria. It would have become an 'emotional dysregulation'- thing.  And you can still somewhat 'feel' this need in the world of psychiatry. Often adolescents get the label of 'high sensitive' to avoid the stigma of BPD, until something really serious like a suicide attempt happens... .
-) my very first experience with BPD that I know of was with a young girl a decade ago. No r/s, no friendship whatsoever. But I could tell she was pretty and seemed to be quite popular. She did have this odd lonely vibe though, which I didn't really understand. To me there were absolutely NO signs of any illness apart from this strange perceived loneliness. But then, I wasn't close to her. There was NO self-harm whatsoever.
But she committed suicide. There was no failed attempt. There was no second chance. All of a sudden she was 'BPD'.
-) the above experience made me very aware of oddities in behaviour. Especially the 'I am really surrounded by all kinds of people, but still feel alone' kind of thing. I don't necessarily see that as a BPD sign, but it is something I notice. In two later strong friendships/relationships I have absolutely NOT thought of BPD for 2 years during the idealisation phase and have absolutely REFUSED to tack the label on during the devaluation phase. But the scary thing in both cases was: their behaviour became more and more BPD-like until there was almost no denying possible.
I wish it wouldn't look like BPD. Now that would give me true peace of mind... .

Maybe that's the real reason why I crave closure so much. To prove that she is NOT BPD and I do NOT have to worry for her life.

[babyducks]

One step I feel is in my future, but that I haven't taken yet, is to have a level of compassion and understanding that his diagnosis with BPD should eventually bring.  At the moment it still feels too much like condoning or excusing his behavior.  That's one of the ways that I know I'm still in that mode of defining his BPD by how it impacts me.

Great post BeagleGirl.    I really like the part about reaching a level of compassion.

I struggle to reach a level of compassion, not for my Ex's sake, but for my sake.   I do not want to carry around anger and bitterness.     I also struggle with sweeping generalizations that denigrate an entire subgroup of people.   They are painful for me to read.   For me that's not the path to healing.    I don't want any part of getting better by disparaging some one else.

'ducks

[Skip]

I like everyone's effort to push forward in this thread... .it a good discussion.

[Duped 1]

I'm glad we're having this discussion... .

Cutting to the bottom line... .do you think your girlfriend had clinical levels of BPD? Her parents and her kids, who spent a lot more time with her than you, did they think/act so? They would surely know.  Read the boards here from parents of BPD kids and the boards of children of BPD parents. Was there risky behavior, money problems, self harm, etc. My recollection of your case was "none of the above".

Skip I think there is a reasonable probability that she would fit the diagnosis based on my understanding of a high functioning BPD. This wasn't just a person who was a bit difficult at times and the chaos in her relationships was a pattern. I have never seen anything like this. Yes there were indications that her family knew she was "off". I'm not saying low functioning. She could not do those things you listed above and still meet 5 of the 9 criteria. Are you saying high functioning BPDs wouldn't typically be diagnosed as such and would typically be considered as just having significant traits? I'm just trying to learn more here and yes I do see my part in the dysfunction. I also feel in the end it wouldn't have mattered as I don't feel anyone could have a healthy rs with her and she indicated that she had never had one.

[Skip]

If someone is high functioning, its almost certain they are not going to get a diagnosis of BPD.

The concept of high functioning BPD, is a self-help concept and it refers to a sub-clinical person. Princess Diana is often considered the poster child for high functioning BPD.

The reason this concept (high functioning) is out there is because people with only BPD traits can be very difficult in relationships. This ideal of calling everyone a psychopath is crazy. Just a pinch or BPD or NPD can be devastating.  Because of there self image issues and desire to be uber loved, the often instinctively reach for partners who are a little less equal (maybe older, maybe younger, maybe not as attractive, or not as active, or popular, or outgoing), act hypersexual (expedite bonding), hoping that they can keep the relationship together. When the relationship falls apart, it can be really messy and hurtful, and the partner left behind is devastated because they don't think they can replace their BPD like partner. We have seen older men who match up with younger women kill themselves when the relationship fails because they know they are not going to attract another 20 years younger hot looking girl.

Does that help?  It's a little dark side of humanity and I don't think it is a plot or malicious - its learned behavior.

[Duped 1]

That is helpful Skip. I’ve read about those that are high functioning and also diagnosed even here. Hence my confusion. Thank you

[gotbushels]

I think the context of the question is, can being argumentative be a proxy for cutting, and therefore can I check off another item in the 5 of 9 criteria of BPD.

In this context, absolutely not.

I didn't see that way of looking at it. Thanks for pointing that out Skip.  TurbanCowboy, what Skip said. Building off that--arguments are painful--but they aren't self-harm. The distinction is especially important if one is trying to do a "5 of 9" styled review for a situation.

responsibility looks to me like ... .
everything happened because thats the level i was operating at ... .
i did those things ... .
to see the skills i lacked ... .
or ive learned nothing.

I want to participate alongside once removed here. I do think it's important to bring up my role in specific "fights", and to see skills I lacked. And not to forget them. The wisdom is; to repeat mistakes is like a dog returning to their own vomit.

I do think that when the non doesn't do the acceptance portion of some hard behaviours, things get in the way of learning. Some detail might help clarify.

Suppose lesson 'A' is learning how to avoid BPDs in the future. Then state lesson 'B' as learning how to stop the non-side of escalating an argument with a healthy partner. Lesson A is something heaps of people learn as a first thing. Lesson B will only come when asking what the non's responsibility was in a 'X' non-and-pwBPD discussion. Why does this matter for the non if they've left? In future relationships, they may not take a BPD into it (fruit of lesson A), but they will certainly take forward how they escalate arguments (absence of lesson B). Therefore, there is tremendous benefit to looking deeper after the relationship has ended; respectfully e.g.'s.:

Look really hard.
... .
My relationships are deeper and richer in all aspects of my life.

I do want to encourage a perspective though. To have a clear perspective of both sets of responsibilities, then work from there--that's actually easier than to risk going through one dodgy relationship after another. I think that's part of not returning to the vomit.



So in that way   Jeffree--yes, the BPD dx "officiality" would help us first to delineate responsibilities faster and know "where to look". Similar to what you've said here, and I strongly agree:

... .inexplicable until learning about BPD. ... .That knowledge can spring them into action to protect themselves they might not have taken without knowing fully what they were up against.

I think this idea of helpfulness of a dx shows blatantly in those posts where people are like "oh SWOE was like reading my diary, I was blown away". So yes, heaps of potential sense of validation of the non's experiences.

Therefore, in this tight way, a BPD dx is a blessing for the non. Moreover--if you've been blessed with that recognition by a P on someone else--then use it in a healthy way. On the detaching board this is often used like a truncheon, but that's not necessarily healthy:

Hahahaha MGE "Wow. Typical BPD crap. I am so sorry." that's so funny.

I hope you're enjoying your peace.  

[once removed]

I do think that when the non doesn't do the acceptance portion of some hard behaviours, things get in the way of learning. Some detail might help clarify.

Suppose lesson 'A' is learning how to avoid BPDs in the future. Then state lesson 'B' as learning how to stop the non-side of escalating an argument with a healthy partner. Lesson A is something heaps of people learn as a first thing. Lesson B will only come when asking what the non's responsibility was in a 'X' non-and-pwBPD discussion. Why does this matter for the non if they've left? In future relationships, they may not take a BPD into it (fruit of lesson A), but they will certainly take forward how they escalate arguments (absence of lesson B). Therefore, there is tremendous benefit to looking deeper after the relationship has ended; respectfully e.g.'s.:

i agree. to me, an essential part of answering "how do i avoid going through this again" requires asking of myself "how do i do better next time?"