Frustrated with my fear-based inability to move forward with a decision

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

Hello bpdfamily and conflicted/tolerating board,

I signed up for an account over a year ago but have not been an active participant, so I am starting over with an introduction.  I returned to the bpdfamily site last night after a long time away, and read several threads that I found meaningful to me, so I am taking the time to share some of my own story.  Thanks to all of the many thoughtful people who share their own experiences and ideas here - you are helping many more than you know.

My situation:  I have been in between leaving and staying in my marriage (16 years) for at least 8 years, and am frustrated with my fear-based inability to move forward with a decision and feel comfortable with it.  My husband and I have one son (11), and live unhappy, parallel lives in the same home, without emotional intimacy, or much physical intimacy.  

About 4 years ago (6 years after our son was born), I finally put the name BPD to the inexplicable behaviors my husband had shown for a long time leading up to that.  The behaviors were extreme beginning with the start of my pregnancy (planned), but in hindsight, they were clearly there from the beginning of our relationship (3 years before we married).  Most were some form of reaction to a fear of abandonment.  Anger, rages, refusal to allow me to exit from or pause an argument, hurt and betrayal when I planned visits with several close girlfriends from before he and I met, extreme extreme stress with ordinary parenting tasks, and many more.  

I was absolutely baffled by his feelings and behavior.  I have been absorbing and processing information about BPD since I learned what it is, after searching the internet in bewilderment after yet another meltdown.  

I am certain that our marriage should end, if I look at it objectively.  My husband does not want me to leave; his refrain for many years has been many variations of "I hate you, don't leave me", mostly focused on how miserable I make him because I don't love him enough, I am not kind enough, and I shut him out of emotional and physical closeness.  To be fair, at this point, that's an accurate description of me.  I lost the passionate love, the kind that he and I both want in a marriage, seven years ago after a series of what I considered appalling behavior toward me and our son (yelling, cursing, minor physical aggression such as barring me from leaving a room, holding my wrist and not letting go in order to continue an argument, throwing a snowball hard at me when angry).  I haven't gotten it back.  I am emotionally drained, and impatient with the situation and frankly mostly with myself; not very kind.  I am not emotionally close to him, because I lost any trust that he will not hurt me if I am vulnerable.

My discovery of BPD has made things worse, in a way.  On one hand, it's a relief to have some explanation and understanding.  On the other, it's crippling to me.  If he has the emotional maturity of a toddler (which does seem to be the case), and the analogy from one book (I forget which, maybe it was Stop Caretaking) described the abandonment fear like the panic and basic fear of survival that a three year old losing hold of mom's hand in a crowded Times Square would have... .how could I do that to him?  If his behavior is not entirely his choice, and he has a lesser ability to regulate his emotions, control his reactions, and let his intellect drive the bus than people without BPD, then it's not [entirely] his fault... .in other words, he's not a jerk, he's disabled.  I wonder if that's offensive to anyone - I don't mean it to be at all and am very interested in your thoughts.  

I'm still with him because he is a person of goodwill and he is trying his hardest.  I am still here because I am terrified that he will not be able to be a stable, supportive father for our son if I left.  We would share custody, unless things really went haywire, and I would want our son to have time with him, but still, I'm afraid of what that would be like.  It's bad enough at the moment (he's unable to deal with any normal parenting conflict with our son without losing it, and sometimes it's just his own fear of parenting conflict--and how I will react to that--that causes a problem), but I fear that at the time our son would need more support during a separation and divorce, he'd get less.  On the other hand, maybe in the end it would help my husband.  Although he doesn't think so, I'm well aware that removing what he desperately wants and isn't getting--me--from his daily existence might reduce his stress and dysregulation.  Finally, I know part of my own issue is letting go of the idealized experience of a dad that I hoped my son would have.  My own father was an emotionally distant alcoholic with whom I had a distant relationship which worsened suddenly last summer with some appalling things he said to me; I hoped for better for my son.  And I think he has better... .not quite as good as I hoped, but it could be much worse, and I'm afraid me leaving will make it worse.  

And all this makes me feel like I've failed myself.  I've let so many lines be crossed (lobster... .cold water start... .).  If I was someone else, listening to me, I'd think I was crazy for not leaving.  My therapist encourages me a lot to be more accepting of myself and look at it that I've made the best decisions I could with the information I had at any time, but that's hard for me.  It's easy to look back--at last weekend, last year, five or more years ago--and feel like that should have been enough information.  I just didn't have the courage to take a risk.  And don't we all want to think we're brave?

In a way, I can make every day groundhog day - I can wake up and think "maybe today! maybe from today it will all be fine!"  Because it's so close... .and so far.  And with what I've learned about BPD, so unlikely to get better.  Because he won't (can't) change, and I don't want to.  That's maybe the crux of my guilt - I feel like I could make this work, if only I didn't want more, if only I loved him better, didn't get upset things, if only I didn't mind.  But, I want what I want.  Someone's comment I read last night was something like, "I do best when I'm let alone to be me, either by myself or with others."  I just want that.  I had it, before I met my husband.  And it'd just been so darned long now of hearing that I should be, should feel, different.  But I guess I'm telling him the exact same thing, aren't I?

So.  I am probably back in the same frustrating limbo in which I've spent years.  But, with your indulgence, I'll just wrap up with the latest incident to illustrate and vent:  Last weekend, he and our son had talked about fishing one evening.  Son and I were up early the next morning, and he said "I hope Dad gets up soon and we go fishing!"  (Fishing is son's favorite activity.)  Husband gets up, comes out to the living room, says "Want to go fishing?"
Son: "Yes!"
BPDh (is that the right acronym?): "OK, go put on your wetsuit." (surf fishing, cold water).  
Son: "OK!", and immediately heads into his room to do just that.  
BPDh, instantly: "I wish you wouldn't complain about putting your wetsuit on.  You just make this so hard.  I don't want to go.  I just do it for you.  I never want to do any of it.  It's a pain, I have to go deal with the gear, you never help put anything away, if you just did that I'd be lot more interested in taking you fishing, etc. [more complaining/anger/criticism]!"  
Me:    Me:    Me:    "Um, did you notice that son just hopped right up to put on his wetsuit, without complaining?"  
BPDh: "Yes, I'm a horrible person, I'm a bad person, you're right!  Son, let's go, come on, get your wetsuit on, we're going!"  
Son, crying: "I don't want to go, I don't want to go if you don't want to go, you don't want to go, I don't want to go!"  

Followed by me losing it, asking husband to step outside, ripping him a new one about offering a fishing trip and then jerking it away while making son feel it's his fault, etc.  Then followed by husband feeling both persecuted and like a failure, and an overall lousy day, with him repeating over and over how stressed he is that his wife doesn't love him and doesn't want to have sex with him.  Aaaand, back to work week, when at least we don't see each other much.

So, the whole sticking around so my son can have an OK dad instead of leaving when he might have a lesser dad isn't working out that well, really.  

Well, one of the reasons I didn't really get started posting when I signed up over a year ago is that when I started to write, it was too long, and too much detail, and just... .too much.  Who has time to read so much.  I should be able to tell my story, and ask questions, in a lot fewer words.  Guess when I can do that I can give up my day job, though.  Thanks to anyone who stuck it out and read to the end.  I appreciate the boards and look forward to future, perhaps more concise, interactions .

Apples

[ThemApples]

Hello bpdfamily and conflicted/tolerating board,

I signed up for an account over a year ago but have not been an active participant, so I am starting over with an introduction.  I returned to the bpdfamily site last night after a long time away, and read several threads that I found meaningful to me, so I am taking the time to share some of my own story.  Thanks to all of the many thoughtful people who share their own experiences and ideas here - you are helping many more than you know.

My situation:  I have been in between leaving and staying in my marriage (16 years) for at least 8 years, and am frustrated with my fear-based inability to move forward with a decision and feel comfortable with it.  My husband and I have one son (11), and live unhappy, parallel lives in the same home, without emotional intimacy, or much physical intimacy.  

About 4 years ago (6 years after our son was born), I finally put the name BPD to the inexplicable behaviors my husband had shown for a long time leading up to that.  The behaviors were extreme beginning with the start of my pregnancy (planned), but in hindsight, they were clearly there from the beginning of our relationship (3 years before we married).  Most were some form of reaction to a fear of abandonment.  Anger, rages, refusal to allow me to exit from or pause an argument, hurt and betrayal when I planned visits with several close girlfriends from before he and I met, extreme extreme stress with ordinary parenting tasks, and many more.  

I was absolutely baffled by his feelings and behavior.  I have been absorbing and processing information about BPD since I learned what it is, after searching the internet in bewilderment after yet another meltdown.  

I am certain that our marriage should end, if I look at it objectively.  My husband does not want me to leave; his refrain for many years has been many variations of "I hate you, don't leave me", mostly focused on how miserable I make him because I don't love him enough, I am not kind enough, and I shut him out of emotional and physical closeness.  To be fair, at this point, that's an accurate description of me.  I lost the passionate love, the kind that he and I both want in a marriage, seven years ago after a series of what I considered appalling behavior toward me and our son (yelling, cursing, minor physical aggression such as barring me from leaving a room, holding my wrist and not letting go in order to continue an argument, throwing a snowball hard at me when angry).  I haven't gotten it back.  I am emotionally drained, and impatient with the situation and frankly mostly with myself; not very kind.  I am not emotionally close to him, because I lost any trust that he will not hurt me if I am vulnerable.

My discovery of BPD has made things worse, in a way.  On one hand, it's a relief to have some explanation and understanding.  On the other, it's crippling to me.  If he has the emotional maturity of a toddler (which does seem to be the case), and the analogy from one book (I forget which, maybe it was Stop Caretaking) described the abandonment fear like the panic and basic fear of survival that a three year old losing hold of mom's hand in a crowded Times Square would have... .how could I do that to him?  If his behavior is not entirely his choice, and he has a lesser ability to regulate his emotions, control his reactions, and let his intellect drive the bus than people without BPD, then it's not [entirely] his fault... .in other words, he's not a jerk, he's disabled.  I wonder if that's offensive to anyone - I don't mean it to be at all and am very interested in your thoughts.  

I'm still with him because he is a person of goodwill and he is trying his hardest.  I am still here because I am terrified that he will not be able to be a stable, supportive father for our son if I left.  We would share custody, unless things really went haywire, and I would want our son to have time with him, but still, I'm afraid of what that would be like.  It's bad enough at the moment (he's unable to deal with any normal parenting conflict with our son without losing it, and sometimes it's just his own fear of parenting conflict--and how I will react to that--that causes a problem), but I fear that at the time our son would need more support during a separation and divorce, he'd get less.  On the other hand, maybe in the end it would help my husband.  Although he doesn't think so, I'm well aware that removing what he desperately wants and isn't getting--me--from his daily existence might reduce his stress and dysregulation.  Finally, I know part of my own issue is letting go of the idealized experience of a dad that I hoped my son would have.  My own father was an emotionally distant alcoholic with whom I had a distant relationship which worsened suddenly last summer with some appalling things he said to me; I hoped for better for my son.  And I think he has better... .not quite as good as I hoped, but it could be much worse, and I'm afraid me leaving will make it worse.  

And all this makes me feel like I've failed myself.  I've let so many lines be crossed (lobster... .cold water start... .).  If I was someone else, listening to me, I'd think I was crazy for not leaving.  My therapist encourages me a lot to be more accepting of myself and look at it that I've made the best decisions I could with the information I had at any time, but that's hard for me.  It's easy to look back--at last weekend, last year, five or more years ago--and feel like that should have been enough information.  I just didn't have the courage to take a risk.  And don't we all want to think we're brave?

In a way, I can make every day groundhog day - I can wake up and think "maybe today! maybe from today it will all be fine!"  Because it's so close... .and so far.  And with what I've learned about BPD, so unlikely to get better.  Because he won't (can't) change, and I don't want to.  That's maybe the crux of my guilt - I feel like I could make this work, if only I didn't want more, if only I loved him better, didn't get upset things, if only I didn't mind.  But, I want what I want.  Someone's comment I read last night was something like, "I do best when I'm let alone to be me, either by myself or with others."  I just want that.  I had it, before I met my husband.  And it'd just been so darned long now of hearing that I should be, should feel, different.  But I guess I'm telling him the exact same thing, aren't I?

So.  I am probably back in the same frustrating limbo in which I've spent years.  But, with your indulgence, I'll just wrap up with the latest incident to illustrate and vent:  Last weekend, he and our son had talked about fishing one evening.  Son and I were up early the next morning, and he said "I hope Dad gets up soon and we go fishing!"  (Fishing is son's favorite activity.)  Husband gets up, comes out to the living room, says "Want to go fishing?"
Son: "Yes!"
BPDh (is that the right acronym?): "OK, go put on your wetsuit." (surf fishing, cold water).  
Son: "OK!", and immediately heads into his room to do just that.  
BPDh, instantly: "I wish you wouldn't complain about putting your wetsuit on.  You just make this so hard.  I don't want to go.  I just do it for you.  I never want to do any of it.  It's a pain, I have to go deal with the gear, you never help put anything away, if you just did that I'd be lot more interested in taking you fishing, etc. [more complaining/anger/criticism]!"  
Me:    Me:    Me:    "Um, did you notice that son just hopped right up to put on his wetsuit, without complaining?"  
BPDh: "Yes, I'm a horrible person, I'm a bad person, you're right!  Son, let's go, come on, get your wetsuit on, we're going!"  
Son, crying: "I don't want to go, I don't want to go if you don't want to go, you don't want to go, I don't want to go!"  

Followed by me losing it, asking husband to step outside, ripping him a new one about offering a fishing trip and then jerking it away while making son feel it's his fault, etc.  Then followed by husband feeling both persecuted and like a failure, and an overall lousy day, with him repeating over and over how stressed he is that his wife doesn't love him and doesn't want to have sex with him.  Aaaand, back to work week, when at least we don't see each other much.

So, the whole sticking around so my son can have an OK dad instead of leaving when he might have a lesser dad isn't working out that well, really.  

Well, one of the reasons I didn't really get started posting when I signed up over a year ago is that when I started to write, it was too long, and too much detail, and just... .too much.  Who has time to read so much.  I should be able to tell my story, and ask questions, in a lot fewer words.  Guess when I can do that I can give up my day job, though.  Thanks to anyone who stuck it out and read to the end.  I appreciate the boards and look forward to future, perhaps more concise, interactions .

Apples

[formflier]

 


I'm sorry you find yourself questioning the future of your relationship.  I want to give you hope.  After reading your fishing story, I think we can help you and your son reduce the level of conflict, even if your hubby has no interest in helping out.

(yes you got the acronym right!)

I'm not going to agree or disagree if you should end your r/s.  That's not our place.  I AM hoping you will agree that with less conflict you can more clearly think through the future of your relationship.  Most likely you will make better decisions with less conflict around.

Thoughts so far?

FF

[ThemApples]

I AM hoping you will agree that with less conflict you can more clearly think through the future of your relationship.  Most likely you will make better decisions with less conflict around.

Thoughts so far?

FF

Thanks for the reply, FF!  Certainly reducing conflict is good for all of us, for many reasons.  I'll admit to worries that "reduce conflict" seems to me "disregard, appease, excuse, and try to do damage control later with our son".  

It feels like the burden is entirely and always on me to validate, de-escalate, and yes, appease.  I shouldn't appease.  Everyone should validate and de-escalate (although I don't think I'll ever get any real validation from him).  And I'm the only person I can control, after all, and if I can learn new ways to reduce conflict, great.  It just doesn't feel like a partnership if I'm the only one working on it.  But that's a whole different problem!  Help with reducing conflict would be much appreciated.  

[formflier]

Thanks for the reply, FF!  Certainly reducing conflict is good for all of us, for many reasons.  I'll admit to worries that "reduce conflict" seems to me "disregard, appease, excuse, and try to do damage control later with our son".  

It feels like the burden is entirely and always on me to validate, de-escalate, and yes, appease.  I shouldn't appease.  Everyone should validate and de-escalate (although I don't think I'll ever get any real validation from him).  And I'm the only person I can control, after all, and if I can learn new ways to reduce conflict, great.  It just doesn't feel like a partnership if I'm the only one working on it.  But that's a whole different problem!  Help with reducing conflict would be much appreciated.  

Well... let's get organized.  "Appease" is an interesting word.  One that I don't see much of on these boards.  I'm a "words guy"... .so I notice stuff like that.

Please tell me more about appease.  perhaps a recent example.

I love the fact that you recognize you are the only one that you can control!     Good stuff, many people don't understand that.  Even those that understand that... can have issues "applying" that truth.


"Everyone should validate"  That would be nice, yet I am much more interested that you understand "invalidation"... .then worry more about validation and keep it in the proper perspective.

Many times we try to validate, miss the target and get in more trouble than if we had just waited and kept our mouth shut.

While I like the idea of keeping separate problems separate, you need to understand the pervasiveness of this disorder.

Big picture:  Really big picture.  When he says wacky stuff... .what would happen if you consistent didn't engage.  He shows you it's time to fight and you just didn't?

Think about the fishing example.  What if you just went on... .?  "Oh my... .wow.  it will be time to leave soon."

FF

[Cmjo]

I read the whole post to the end and it was very interesting. You analyse every single thought and action and reaction. Just like me, writing reading posting thinking... .and so much like me you want BPD to be the ideal husband and father, you say he is good and he is trying. But its a long and slow and difficult process of coming to terms with an illness like this and that our husband is not what we expected. 

You are someone like me possibly that has great difficulty in accepting the utter hopelessness, or if you do realise it, you soon try to climb down and say well its not that bad, and see the advantages of staying in the relationship. You Realise he has a serious handicap and feel sorry for him and perhaps think you can fix him, you dont want to deprive him of a son or his son of a father. But there is no joy in the relationship, you dont want to go near him, no trust, and not much hope of things ever getting better.

And it seems he cannot give your son the parental care that your son really needs from a Dad, like my BPDh cant really ever have an adult conversation with our kids and his inconsistency and habit of only putting his needs first is actually emotionally abusive for them. We still live in the same situation as you by the eay which I am also trying to extricate myself from!

I believe that if you left it wouldnt necessarily stop him being triggered, as my therapist told me, just seeing a cat can trigger a rage in a BPD!

Do you have support from your family... .his family? Does anyone understand what you are going through or do they also put subtle pressure on you to stay together because that way you have a family and your son has a dad?

[patientandclear]

Think about the fishing example.  What if you just went on... .?  "Oh my... .wow.  it will be time to leave soon."

FF

FF—what is the impact on Apples’s son of hearing his mom just ignore the devastating way his dad just tore apart his hope to spend time together?

I ask because my kid has processed with me how much damage this sort of thing does (her dad behaves similarly). I understand the problem for Apples is that whether she ends the marriage or not, her son is likely to spend time with his dad, so leaving doesn’t prevent these exchanges. (In my case, due to particular circumstances that would be hard to replicate, my kid doesn’t spend time with her dad without me around. She doesn’t feel emotionally safe and we have been able to evolve an understanding with her dad about this.) ... .So maybe the kind of thing her H said will he said to their son regardless. But my understanding is that seeing the other parent tolerate that kind of abuse of the kid does its own damage. It makes the stable parent also feel unsafe. Etc. So while the proposed answer might alleviate conflict btwn the parents, it doesn’t seem like it addresses the important issue of impact on her kid.

Apples, two things. One: I hear you stuck on the point of “if I leave, it will be worse for my kid,” so wanted to share this. Though it has only happened since I parted from my exH year’s back and we both for emotional distance from the marriage, I have been able to talk with my exH about the harm done to our child when he deals with her similarly to that fishing story. I worked hard on how to share that info with him so he could hear it. I will give him credit for absorbing it and caring more about not driving her further away, than about enforcing his rights to residential time with her. Had he not agreed voluntarily to step back (her solution is to only see him with me present and he has tacitly gone along with that; we have a nice time so it is not a bummer for him to do it this way), I had legal tools to enforce that he can’t be alone with her (I had established alcohol dependency and abusice conduct in our divorce, he is not allowed time alone with her if drinking, he does drink and I can compel UAs, etc). But I haven’t had to resort to that because it has been possible, talking to him with a lot of care and kindness, to enlist his agreement.

Two, I had similar thoughts for years about how my ex would possibly function without me. In fact, he is better off. He doesn’t do super well, he is dysfunctional in many ways. But it has helped him not look to me as the solution for all his bad feelings. I am far enough removed now that if he feels bad he no longer resorts to the explanation that I did something that caused that. I think also makes him a bit happier that he isn’t constantly abusive to someone else. He has lost a big material/logistical crutch (me) and a big psychological crutch (blaming me). There has been growth not regression since he’s had to do without those things.

[patientandclear]

Eek—the modify button is missing so I can’t edit the typos! Hope you can make out what was meant in places.

[formflier]

My quick answer is a new approach needs to be coupled with consistent teaching about how to "deal with" upset people. 

Note... .that teaching moment should not be in the moment of upsetness.

More later.

Ignoring it without ever discussing is not a good option.

FF

[ThemApples]

When he says wacky stuff... .what would happen if you consistent didn't engage.  He shows you it's time to fight and you just didn't?

Think about the fishing example.  What if you just went on... .?  "Oh my... .wow.  it will be time to leave soon."

That's a great question.  I have been trying to not engage for many years.  He shows he's ready to fight, but it takes two, so I ignore, evade, or redirect.  However, in the past few months (maybe more), I have engaged more, and the fishing story is an example of me reacting very differently than I have been up until now.  To this point, not engaging hasn't had any positive effect... .it just allows his undesirable behavior to continue.  I am tired of always having to absorb or deflect the hurt his words cause.  Worse, I am tired of seeing them affect our son.  If I had been the object of his criticism in that situation, I'd have thought "whatever... .again" and shaken it off (with my regard for him eroded just that little bit more).  And perhaps raised the issue with him later, when we were both calm, to share with him how his words made me feel.  But I'm tired of holding my tongue and waiting until later to address it while it happens to our son, and trying my best to smooth the waters during the moment - to acknowledge and de-escalate my husband, to gently let our son know that he hasn't done anything wrong.  Yes, I'm fully aware that me engaging by jumping in with verbal guns blazing was possibly neither the approach most likely to achieve any positive change, nor set a good example for our son.   

More generally, when I don't engage, he will get extremely upset--hurt, offended, angry that he's trying to engage and I won't.  He'll follow me around the house, through doors, into the bathroom, banging on windows if he's outside and I'm in.  He'll wake me up, or not let me go to sleep, so he can continue to engage.  This has been a very strong pattern for over 10 years.  In my opinion, all of that is incredibly disrespectful and illustrates a lack of self-control and ability to respect someone else's wishes that I find very disturbing.  It happens no matter how I try to not engage... .unless... .

I appease.  I'm astonished you don't hear about that more on these boards.  Maybe it's my own unusual interpretation of that term.  "I'm sorry, you're right, I was wrong to say/do/feel that, I'm sorry, it's OK, I love you, everything's fine, I'm sorry, you didn't do anything wrong, of course you feel that way, I'm sorry, it's my fault, I'll be nicer, I love you." 

He melts down when he feels that 1) I don't love him (and might leave), 2) he's a bad person, or both at once.  Often that's brought on by actual or perceived criticism by me.  I am quite careful, usually, to offer constructive criticism, to help achieve shared goals.  For example: we want son to stop reacting with whining/yelling when he's told to do something; I ask for his ideas on approaches, listen, and share mine, such as: "sometimes it seems to me that your voice or facial expression seems angry, and I know you're not!  I probably do it too.  Maybe it seems angry to son, too, and he's reacting to that.  I think being aware of that and using a more positive tone/expression might help."  That, friends, is an opening salvo to WWIII, and how could I be so mean as to say his voice sounded angry?  Many other times, the criticism isn't anything I've done at all, he imagines and fears what I will say if something goes wrong, so he just jumps in with a preemptive strike.  Maybe it also lets him feel like his prediction was right. 

So, the evolving, less patient, less kind me is more likely to actually engage, and offer some criticism, constructive or otherwise.  You can see how this spirals downward, and I can, too.  But I don't want to stand by any longer and watch what feels like emotional abuse to my son.  The appeasement is no good, either... .it's like a diet of emotional junk food for him.   And it does a number on my self-esteem. 

So, to what I think was your point, that not engaging doesn't mean continuing to live with it status quo, but rather think "yep, time to leave soon"... .took me a long time to get that, didn't it?  And yes.  I'm just so frustrated with myself that it's been "time to leave soon" for so many years, and I haven't left.  I did a bunch of work with my T to try to be happier with the decision to stay that I've been making so far... .not much success there yet.  I'd say she helped me move the dial a bit, but the dial is still pretty hard over into "you're making a poor decision every day by not leaving" territory. 

Apples

[ThemApples]

Do you have support from your family... .his family? Does anyone understand what you are going through or do they also put subtle pressure on you to stay together because that way you have a family and your son has a dad?

Cmjo, you just absolutely nailed it with your description.  Spot on.  Thank you!

As far as support or understanding, no.  I have two friends who I've told a little bit about it, who understand I'm having a hard time and are very supportive of me.  But I don't know anyone who has the faintest idea what BPD is (with the exception of one uncle, who is a retired T himself, who I told about it when I saw him last year--his reaction was incredibly valuable to me in terms of at least letting me know that somebody has a clue how incredibly difficult it is, and it's not just me.  I mean, I know it's not just me, but it was nice to have a live person understand.  Sadly, he lives far away, and I don't see him often).  My own T here isn't knowledgeable about it at all.

My own family all live far away.  My sister and mother would be supportive.  My father wouldn't, and told me I was making a huge mistake when I told my parents I was planning to leave a couple years ago (lots of backstory on my dad; his opinion doesn't hold any water with me, but still, no support there).  My in-laws would almost certainly think I was doing a terrible thing, leaving their son and tearing apart the family.  They're very nice, and loving, and have a very fixed image of what a proper family should be.

So, happy to find this site. 

[ThemApples]

FF—what is the impact on Apples’s son of hearing his mom just ignore the devastating way his dad just tore apart his hope to spend time together?

I ask because my kid has processed with me how much damage this sort of thing does (her dad behaves similarly).

... .

Two, I had similar thoughts for years about how my ex would possibly function without me. In fact, he is better off. He doesn’t do super well, he is dysfunctional in many ways. But it has helped him not look to me as the solution for all his bad feelings. I am far enough removed now that if he feels bad he no longer resorts to the explanation that I did something that caused that. I think also makes him a bit happier that he isn’t constantly abusive to someone else. He has lost a big material/logistical crutch (me) and a big psychological crutch (blaming me). There has been growth not regression since he’s had to do without those things.

patientandclear,
Thank you for putting into words much more eloquently than I did a large part of my concern about staying quiet and allowing a hurtful interaction to occur.  That is exactly it.  As I tried to include in my reply to FF, I usually try to navigate that kind of situation a little more skillfully, engaging to defuse it and make sure my son knows he's not done wrong.  I am just losing patience, and reacted badly to my heart breaking, again, so gave him the full on "What were you thinking?" harangue.

And, thank you so much for all your insights, but particularly about how your ex has done since your separation.  That's what I would hope for.  I appreciate your taking the time to share it with me!  (typos no problem!)

Apples

[ThemApples]

My quick answer is a new approach needs to be coupled with consistent teaching about how to "deal with" upset people. 

Note... .that teaching moment should not be in the moment of upsetness.

More later.

Ignoring it without ever discussing is not a good option.

FF

Completely agree on all counts!  Here is a more coherent question for the board:  How have you been successful at doing the teaching moments in a way that doesn't trigger your BPD person? 

I haven't found a way that doesn't leave him feeling criticized and bad, no matter how careful and positive I've been.  I've done a lot of work on my own on validation, emotional intelligence, constructive communication, etc.; I've read a lot of the resources/library on this site, as well as others (there is a great list somewhere titled ":)on't be Invalidating", although I couldn't find it just now to post a link).  I have tried a lot of different approaches over the years.  I am careful about when to bring it up, where, context, nonverbal cues, not piling on, not blaming, etc.  I have tried to say nothing more than "When you said X, I felt Y."   

Regardless, even if that conversation seems to go OK, it will trigger his stress and anxiety (I can see the physiological reaction right away--dilated pupils, trembling, sweating, rapid heart rate; and he'll go outside and smoke cigarettes [which I can't stand]), and make a period of dysregulation much more likely.  He'll also bring it up later, as something "mean" I did, telling him again in so many words that he's bad.  I feel like I could say "the sky is blue" and he would hear "you're a horrible person!".

How do you deal with someone who seems to have such a big self-esteem problem?

Apples

[formflier]

  How have you been successful at doing the teaching moments in a way that doesn't trigger your BPD person? 
 

I'm not at all suggesting that you have any "teaching moment" whatsoever with your husband.  That's not your role and is unlikely to be received well.  I think your question acknowledges he will likely take it badly.

I am much more interested in your relationship with your son in this matter and in how you help him understand the confusing and hurtful things that come of our someone else's mouth (in this case his Dad).

Look at this another way.  Do you think you will have more success "teaching" your son something (anything really) or your husband?

That should inform you were to put your energy.

FF

[formflier]

How do you deal with someone who seems to have such a big self-esteem problem?
 

As little as possible.  Make sure that interactions are really needed and that they are succinct.  Most of all that whatever strategy you choose, that you are consistent.

Over time, he is likely to be less reactive with consistency.  (with or without therapy).

Over time, once he sort of understands that when he behaves better he gets your attention and when he behaves badly he gets a big zero (no reaction... .or that you leave or something like that) he may start to modify his behavior some.

Right now, it is highly likely that he is dysfunctionally getting attention from you.  He says horrible things, you "rip him a new one".  For a while he had your complete attention and energy.

Do you see that?

FF

[formflier]

So, to what I think was your point, that not engaging doesn't mean continuing to live with it status quo, but rather think "yep, time to leave soon"... .took me a long time to get that, didn't it?  

Time to leave soon to go fishing.  With Mom and son.

The actual particulars of who does what would likely take some trial and error.  The big picture intent is that the nons get to live their lives and the pwBPD get to melt down... .or not.

Once pwBPD understand their shenanigans no longer have power over nons, perhaps... .perhaps things can change in a more positive way.

I get it that lots of your kids hopes were in fishing with Dad... I get that.  There are tough life lessons to learn here about not getting what you want and what to do when people disappoint you. 

The most important lesson is that your son understands that in the midst of this crazy he has a parent that steps forward for him.  Would it be better to have two of those... .absolutely.  You have limited energy and I think you would likely have been more productive to "ignore" hubby... .take your kid fishing, bring back fish and share with entire family at dinner.

Let hubby do what he will do.  You guys press forward with improving your relationship.

Do you see the "mindset" here?

FF

[ThemApples]

As little as possible. 

I see that the way I interacted with him in the fishing example was not productive.  And I know that my attention and energy and emotion are what he desperately wants and needs, and negative is better than nothing. 

Not enough interaction from me is a trigger for him - he feels shut out.  Not interacting at some point to discuss events like the fishing example seems like a poor choice to me; it feels like allowing and enabling the unacceptable behavior.  Interacting minimally, later when calm, to let him know that was hurtful, has been tried many times for many years, with no change.

A

[ThemApples]

TThe big picture intent is that the nons get to live their lives and the pwBPD get to melt down... .or not.

Once pwBPD understand their shenanigans no longer have power over nons, perhaps... .perhaps things can change in a more positive way.

"Getting to live my life" is exactly what I feel like I'm missing.  And I think it goes far beyond the discussion of whether I react or engage when he says something off.  Yes, I can ignore him every time he melts down, and I can take our son out and do things with him.  And that's ok, in the moment (although it erodes any good feelings I am trying to build up about him).  But I don't plan things like big trips, or even just having friends over for dinner, because at any moment he could melt down and then those things are miserable.  Every. single. vacation.  It feels like a lesser life.

After research and reading, I am not feeling a lot of hope for positive change, or hope that I'll ever get to live my life in a way that feels good to me.

[ThemApples]

... .take your kid fishing, bring back fish and share with entire family at dinner.

You vastly overestimate my ability to catch fish    (but point taken, and it's the time together that counts--there's always take-out for dinner)

[formflier]

  Not interacting at some point to discuss events like the fishing example seems like a poor choice to me; it feels like allowing and enabling the unacceptable behavior.  

I'm not suggesting it never come back up.  Like many other things, the way to bring it up that is "healthy" for pwBPD and those in relationships with them can be counter-intuitive.

Plus, the likelihood of anything positive coming from bringing it up in a healthy way is still low.

Much better to focus your energy on minimizing the hurt and anguish on the front end... .and move along to a positive activity (a son and a healthy positive adult going fishing)... than trying to "deal with" a pwBPD throwing a tantrum.

It will take a while to get used to and yes, feelings will still be hurt.  This man will be a father to your child and it's up to you to help teach your child coping strategies... strategies to not engage and to live life to the fullest, even if others try to drag you down.

Really crappy deal to have to teach that now, but I assure you it is a better use of your limited time and energy.

FF

[formflier]

not productive.  

What's done is done... .but it was actually counter-productive.  It "fed the monster"... .

The monster will have to go on a diet for a while to start getting weaker. 

Do you see the analogy?

FF

[formflier]

  (although it erodes any good feelings I am trying to build up about him).  

Can you explain this a bit more?  I want to make sure I don't miss a big thing here.

FF

[formflier]

  But I don't plan things like big trips, or even just having friends over for dinner, because at any moment he could melt down and then those things are miserable.  Every. single. vacation.  It feels like a lesser life.
 

So... .why not?

Plan something, let him ruin it... or let it be a good event  if he is on good behavior.  it's one event, one vacation, one trip.

Let's assume he ruins it.  Your value in life is that pwBPD don't ruin your stuff, so plan another one without him.  Don't ask, don't justify... don't hide it.  Don't persecute him with it either... .

We can get into the nuance later.

Will he flip out... .most assuredly he will.  He may even get worse for a time.  They don't like loosing power over nons.  But once they realize that FOG doesn't work, there is a chance for improvement.

But you aren't waiting around for improvement, you are taking your life back.

If you find yourself making decisions based on what you "fear" your pwBPD will do... .that's bad. 

Thoughts so far?

FF

[bpdisphun]

Reading through your thread, your situation sounds a lot like mine.  I too feel stuck by fear, and have been since the beginning of the relationship.  That is on difference, it sounds like you were happy with the relationship at one time, but I personally knew mine was wrong from the get go.  And by that i mean we weren't a match; the BPD behaviors just ensured I stayed even though I knew we weren't a match.  While both obligation and guilt were a driving force in why I stayed since the beginning, fear has been the one that never left.  Currently I stay because I am too afraid of making the change, how to make the change, and what will happen.

Your description of the event with your son was heartbreaking to read, I think mainly because it is eerily similar to events that happen with my son and his BPD step-mom.  I don't know exactly how you feel but I feel a lot of anger at myself sometimes because I know the reason he is in the situation is because of my fear and inability to break out of it.

I too experience not finding any strategy that works to try to change the behaviors.  It seems my BPDw has a sense for when I am trying to use any kind of tactic to resolve issues and will escalate things until, like you, I end up appeasing her and apologizing and taking responsibility for everything.  I have reached a strange plateau in the relationship where I have been able to minimize the issues, although it is severely uncomfortable on a daily basis trying to maintain it.  The only thing I have found to work so far is to try to think ahead of her to appease her before a problem even starts, or before it starts to escalate.  But I have managed to couple that with being just insubordinate enough that she doesn't get to comfortable (which would trigger a large pushing away).  I know the general advice is that you shouldn't give in as it reinforces their behavior, but for me personally if I don't give in she will continuously escalate until I do, and start involving my son as a focus of her emotion (usually anger) as well. 

I don't know if I can even describe my strategy, as it has been more of a natural evolution, and no doubt there are underlying intricacies that are different.  It's also not a strategy you want to live with for the rest of your life, even if it does bring relative peace.  It also took years to achieve.  For me, appeasing is a means of survival for the short/medium term, not a long term/permanent solution.  If I could find a better solution that works I would.  But for now, I am just trying to keep relative peace while I figure out an exit plan and self reflect on my own issues.

Sorry, I am not super helpful I know