Slow passion to deliberate progress

[I Am Redeemed]

What is a snail's fury? All
I think is that if later
I parted the blades above
the tunnel and saw the thin
trail of broken white across litter,
I would never have imagined
that slow passion to deliberate progress.

-Thom Gunn, 1961
"Considering the Snail"

I love this poem. The author wonders what motivates the snail to push forward through obvious obstacles to achieve his goal. The darkness lies ahead of the snail, yet he is steadfast in his quest and leaves a trail of brightness behind him. The snail moves slowly, but deliberately, and is undaunted , neither by external forces (gravity, wet, heavy grass) nor inside forces (the pace with which he moves.)



So this was my first post, just over a month ago:
I have been with my husband for seven years. He has not been officially diagnosed as BPD, but the disorder describes him exactly. He also has substance abuse issues, and experiences delusions (believes that our lives are in danger, there are listening devices in the house, there's a conspiracy against him in everything he tries to do, etc.) The delusions started 5 years ago after he used excessive amounts of meth. Even when sober he is unstable emotionally, aggressive, complaining, overly sensitive and critical of me, blames me for everything, expects me to take care of everything, including his well being in all aspects (physically, mentally, emotionally) and he explodes with rage, becoming violent, when very little has happened ( or nothing) to provoke such a reaction. Always, always, his rage is my fault, and he even accused me of provoking him on purpose so I could call the police and get rid of him. Recently he relapsed and began using meth again. The mood swings and delusional behavior increased. He became increasingly more psychotic. I was afraid of losing my child and my job, and I was afraid for my safety and my son's safety. My husband attacked me several times, and the day I left he was driving recklessly with my two year old son in the car. I tried to get my son out but he would not let me. I jumped out and ran and called the police. My husband is in jail for assaulting me, possibly facing prison. I asked the court for a mental evaluation for him, but I don't know if it will do any good. I have not spoken to my husband, even though he calls repeatedly every day. I know that I talk to him it will stress me out. I wanted him to get treatment. I did not want to put him in jail, much less prison. I feel guilty about it, even though it was his behavior that caused this. This relationship has left me feeling insecure, indecisive, worn out, stressed out and constantly worrying about how he would react or perceive the decisions I have made since I left. I am not seeing anyone else. I have not filled for divorce. I find myself still holding out hope that he will get help, though I feel foolish for doing so. I am lost and second guessing myself. I realize that I need therapy myself for the trauma and stress this relationship has caused. Just wanted to talk to someone else who might know how it feels to go through this.

Reading this again, I realize that I have made some progress, however snail-like in pace. You guys have been instrumental in that, so thank you for all your support.

My emotions have stabilized- somewhat. I have been a little hypervigilant in assessing my emotional state, because in the past I have been prone to severe depression. I was first treated for depression at age 12. I was diagnosed with major depressive disorder at age 32.

Depression is a genetic trait in my FOO. When I was two, my mother spent time in a psychiatric hospital for depression. Not sure of the exact details on why she was released, but at any rate, she attempted suicide just days later. Shot herself, in the basement while we were sleeping. This led to a stroke and permanent disability for her. She is now 81 and was dx with terminal lung cancer 18 months ago. She refused treatment, says she has no pain and believes God has healed her.

I have also been hypervigilant because uBPDh is not the only one who has a substance abuse disorder. I spent the better part of my twenties and some of my thirties in active addiction, mostly self medicating the depression. Last relapse was last January. DOC (drug of choice) is prescription opiates. For nine months I prayed and prayed and begged for God to forgive me and help me. He did. He helped me break free. I have been clean just over four months. When I say I am Redeemed... .I truly mean that (thanks Tattered Heart... .you hit the nail on the head with my username).

So. Some days I feel like I am not making progress, and the darkness ahead is frightening because I can't see. But when I look back, I can see a trail of brightness behind me leading from where I was to where I am now. Snail-paced or not, there is a slow passion to my deliberate progress.

That's where I'm at today in my thinking, guys. Thanks for reading.

Redeemed

[Harley Quinn]

Redeemed, thank you so much for sharing your slow passion to deliberate progress with us.  What a wonderful way to express your journey from then to now and onward.  Your post is heartfelt and inspiring.  There is a strength there within you that shines forth. 

How are you doing with processing the trauma?  What support do you have for this?

Love and light x

[Radcliff]

Redeemed, what a compelling first chapter to your story.  I am sure there is much more to tell.  I imagine your emotions and thoughts around your husband, the past, and the future, are a complex swirl that changes from day to day.

How long has your husband been out of your home for?  What has it been like to have safety and peace?  Has it given you more space to think your own thoughts and reflect?  Have you been able to gain any insights that might not have been possible when you were in the middle of a storm?

Thank you for sharing with us!

WW

[I Am Redeemed]

Hi Harley,
I think I am processing fairly well. I try to write things down, and I rely heavily upon God for healing. I do daily Bible reading plans that deal with abuse, grief, "slaying giants", etc. I just started one called "boundaries 101". I have friends at work who have been extremely supportive. Some have even gone through similar situations. I am trying to get insurance started so I can get into therapy.
This site has been a great help to me. Thanks to everyone who has reached out. You guys have been extremely supportive and encouraging, and I appall of you.

Wishing you all blessings and peace,
Redeemed

[Mustbeabetterway]

Hi Redeemed.  First, I just want to say that you are very brave.  Telling your story takes courage.  It’s very difficult to take steps against your spouse, but necessary, in your case, to protect your child and yourself.

I know how dangerous and pervasive addiction is.  My brother died from drug and alcohol addiction.   So, my heart goes out to you. 

I just have to say you must put your child’s and your own safety ahead of all else.

Congratulations on staying clean.   I pray for your continued progress and hope you will find peace and happiness. 

Mustbe

[I Am Redeemed]

WW,

Thanks for replying. I know you have a lot of emotional situations going on in your own life right now, and I really appreciate you setting aside time to lend support to me as well as others on this site.

 I imagine your emotions and thoughts around your husband, the past, and the future, are a complex swirl that changes from day to day.

Definitely. Some days I am certain we will not ever be able to have a relationship, and that detaching and accepting the demise of my marriage is the only course I should set before me. Other days I find that sliver of hope still rising up- the thoughts of "but with God all things are possible" and "you don't know what's going to happen- close the door but don't lock it." Then I get scared that these are the kinds of thoughts that led me to return to the r/s before- I actually left three times because of the physical abuse, and each time I talked myself into giving the r/s another chance. I told myself he needed me to help him get help. That everyone else had abandoned him, but I might be the only one who could finally get him the proper treatment.

How freaking ridiculous was that.

Then I get mad, and sad, and confused, and frustrated, and finally just decide to do the next right thing in front of me and trust God for His perfect plan to unfold for my life.

How long has your husband been out of your home for?  What has it been like to have safety and peace?  Has it given you more space to think your own thoughts and reflect?  Have you been able to gain any insights that might not have been possible when you were in the middle of a storm?

The 27th of this month will be three months. He has been incarcerated since that day. I was granted an order of protection. His lawyer is trying to get him into inpatient mental health treatment, and possible drug rehab. Maybe a place that treats dual diagnosis of substance abuse disorder/other mental disorder. I requested the court have him undergo a mental evaluation. Last time I talked to uBPDh he said the evaluator told him she would help him file for mental disability. I told him if he talked to her again to ask her if he could get an assessment for BPD> He said he thinks she already figured that out. That may be the closest he will ever come to being dx with BPD, but it at least confirms what I already suspected.
 I moved out of the house we were renting. I was behind on the rent anyway, and the car had broken down so I didn't have transportation to work (we lived 35 minutes away from my job.) I moved in with a co-worker friend who has a son close to s2's age. I am still staying with her while I try to save some money.

Safety and peace... .I will never take them for granted again. Ever.

I have infinitely more space to think thoughts and reflect than before. Even with s2, and work, and baby-sitting my other co-worker's three kids (we trade babysitting so we both can work) I have a few moments each day to just... .think. In the quiet. Nobody raging. Nobody threatening. Nobody demanding, or playing mind games or keeping me up at night. If I'm up at night now, it's because I am doing homework or posting on here or reading the Bible. When I get ready to go to bed, I go to bed. Nobody gets mad because I didn't meet some kind of "need" before I decided I needed rest.
I have learned so much about enabling. I actually just recently began to recognize enabling behaviors in how I deal with s2. I give in way too much, and I try to pacify and appease him, just like I did with uBPDh. I also have learned about boundaries. In a sense, I knew my boundaries were being violated in the middle of all the craziness, but I didn't really realize how much power I had to define those boundaries and stop them from being crossed. I also used to think "if I were a man this wouldn't be happening to me." I felt like uBPDh only had power to control me or hurt me because he had physical advantages over me. I now know that was not true. There are many men on this site who have experienced much of the same abuse that I did. And I know that the only reason uBPDh was able to control me is because I let him. I didn't really know that before.
I guess I just got used to dysfunction and craziness. I was not an emotionally stable person by any means for most of my teen and young adult years. I do believe that I have come a long way from where I was, though. But sometimes, now that the immediate crisis is over and the quiet seeps in, I wonder "what now?" I spent so much time in survival mode, that now I don't know what to do. I don't know how to "feel normal" at times.
I find myself doing things a certain way sometimes, or making decisions, and I think "uBPDh would probably be mad about this." And then I remember- I don't have to worry about that. I no longer have to tailor my life to fit his distorted thinking. I didn't really have to before- I just did it.

Hi Redeemed.  First, I just want to say that you are very brave.  Telling your story takes courage.  It’s very difficult to take steps against your spouse, but necessary, in your case, to protect your child and yourself.

I know how dangerous and pervasive addiction is.  My brother died from drug and alcohol addiction.   So, my heart goes out to you.  

I just have to say you must put your child’s and your own safety ahead of all else.

Congratulations on staying clean.   I pray for your continued progress and hope you will find peace and happiness.  

Mustbe

Mustbe,

I am so sorry about your brother. Addiction unfortunately claims many lives. It is a difficult disorder to recover from. I was foolish to think that I was "over it." I let my guard down, and the next thing you know I relapsed. Without a second thought. That is the scary part of the disorder. The Alcoholics Anonymous book says that "the alcoholic at times has no mental defense against the first drink." That is absolutely correct. I have experienced it firsthand.

I don't feel brave. I just feel blessed to have a safe place to share and get feedback and maybe learn a thing or two about a thing or two. But thank you.

As for protecting myself and my child, I feel like I almost waited too late. I lost custody of my other children due to the violence. I should have drawn the line then. But I thought that if he got a proper diagnosis, got treatment, got on meds, went to church, found Jesus... .I finally got scared enough that I was going to lose my baby boy, s2, and I could not bear for him to be in an unsafe environment. I finally put my child before myself. I only wish I had done that for my other children. I was so blind. My sister has guardianship of them now: D10, D9, S6, S5, and D4. That's right- I have six bio kids.

Yes, I know what causes that.   Thanks to all the concerned folks who asked me that rhetorical question when I was pregnant with Number Six.  

Thank you to everyone for your kind words. I am glad to have a place like this to share my story, and to read all of yours as well. It is comforting to know I am not alone, or crazy (much) and that I can learn and process and maybe help others a little along the way.

Blessings and peace,

Redeemed

[I Am Redeemed]

So this is something else I am trying to deal with, but don't really know what to do: S2 has not mentioned his daddy since we left three months ago. We moved out of the house and I think since we are in a different environment, S2 has not expected to see Daddy. I have not shown him pictures of Daddy, nor have I let him see Daddy's clothes (I have some of his clothes in the closet in a bag, to take to MIL's house, since uBPDh is still incarcerated). I am not trying to make him forget Daddy. I just don't want to stir up feelings of missing Daddy for S2. S2 loves his Daddy very, very much, and despite the insanity, uBPDh always treated S2 with love. He played with him and cared for him- not as much after the meth relapse, but even in a state of dysregulation he never treated S2 harshly. Indirect damage was my concern, because of the incidents S2 witnessed.

Anyhow, the other day we went through the drive-thru to get breakfast on the way to the babysitter's house. I usually don't go to this drive-thru. Not for four months now. It is directly down the street from where my uBPDh used to work, and we would frequently go and get breakfast and take it to uBPDh after dropping him off at work. So, this was our first time going there since last Sept. I pulled over to give S2 his food, and he looks down the street at where uBPDh used to work and says ":)addy?"

Knife through the  . I did not know S2's memory was that good.

I don't know what to do! I don't know how to help S2. He doesn't understand. One minute he was with his Daddy, and then he fell asleep and when he woke up, his Daddy was gone. He hasn't seen him in three months.

Mad, sad, frustrated, feeling helpless, wanting to fix it, make it better, mama bear syndrome... .this feels crappy. I can handle myself feeling not-good emotions. I'm a grown up (at least I resemble one.) S2 is innocent, and I don't want his little heart to hurt. I can't even explain to him.

This sucks.

[Mustbeabetterway]

Hi Redeemed,

You are being strong.  There are going to be uncomfortable feelings.  The best way to deal with uncomfortable feelings is to actually deal with them.  Don’t try to push them aside or avoid them.  It’s not great that s2 is missing his father.  But, your son’s relationship with his father is not your responsibility.  Take good care of your son.  Try not to worry too much and just keep taking care of the day to day or moment to moment necessities. 

The best thing you can do for your son is to be a caring and safe parent.

Good luck, I hope you have a good evening.  Mustbe

[I Am Redeemed]

Thanks, Mustbe,

You are right. I'm not responsible for their relationship. I'm not even responsible for S2's feelings. I can only provide support and love him and be his security right now. He is so smart and sweet, and he really is a happy child. He has done exceptionally well, all things considered.

Thanks, Mustbe. I hope you have a good evening too.

Blessings and peace,
Redeemed

[I Am Redeemed]

Something ironic that I have realized is that I have poor boundaries with most people, not just in my r/s, and uBPDh used to belittle me about it. He said that I let people run over me, including him. The way he came at me about it put me on the defensive, but he was actually correct. I have never been assertive. Like right now, I bought a used car that broke down two weeks later. I sent it back to the guy who sold it to me and he has had it for three weeks and it still isn't fixed. Part of me wants to tell him either fix it or give me the money back for it. Or give it back, I will find someone else to fix it and you pay the tow bill. But... .I will probably say nothing, because I don't like conflict. I don't know how to handle these situations, and that makes me feel immature.
Any thoughts or suggestions?

Redeemed

[BeagleGirl]

I suspect that you might be the kind of person who will let others walk all over you, but will go to the mat in defense of your children or friends.  Is that true?

If so, it may help you to extend the consequences of not facing that conflict to how it impacts someone you would stand up for.  So if not standing up to the car salesman/mechanic means S2 has less time with you or that it will cost you money that you could otherwise have used to help out a friend, or... .then maybe that can be your motivation.

Eventually, I hope that you can see the value in yourself and your time that allows you to assert yourself.  We are called to be servants and give freely to others, but that isn't the same as allowing ourselves to be taken advantage of or abused. 

Oh, and if God has put someone in your life who is good at this type of thing, bring them along with you and let them do the talking.  I have one friend in particular who is really good at politely asserting herself.  She's respectful of me and doesn't step in to defend me without my consent, but I have learned a lot from her encouragement of me and example.  She is also the best person at pointing out to me when I'm "over functioning" with a humor that has me smiling about what she would say when I catch myself.  That's so much sweeter than the guilt and shame I would otherwise feel.

BG

[I Am Redeemed]

Beaglegirl,

You are right, I would stand up for my kids or my friends. I suppose I have been living in the FOG for so long (even in childhood) that I don't know how to get out. I let FOG run my life, inside my r/s with uBPDh and in basically every other personal or professional interaction. I am a "people pleaser" for sure.
I need to learn from my sister. She is 20 years older than me, and she said she used to be like me but as she got older she started to stand up for herself more and care less about what people think.
I think a lot of times I tend to set myself up for failure before I even start, because I play out scenarios in my head and think, "well, if I say this, then he will say that, and then this will happen and that will happen and it won't do any good anyway."
This car situation is a little weird, anyway. I don't even know the person who actually sold it to me. I've never met him, don't have his number. He is a friend of the bf of my co-worker who let me and S2 move in with them when I left uBPDh. CW's bf was helping me look for a used car, told me his friend had this one and I gave cw's cf the money. He purchased car for me while I was at work. Car ran fine for two weeks. Cw's bf did a minor repair on it, then next thing you know I'm on the side of the road with S2 with coolant spraying out of the tank thingy all over the place. CW bf called his friend, who has a repair shop and was not honest with him about what happened. He told him nothing about the minor repair. So this sounds shady to me in the first place, and the only info I get about my car comes from cw's bf. I feel like I got myself into something I shouldn't have. Really feel stupid about it. I am tempted to fall into negative "self-talk": you should have known better, you trust people too much, you should have checked it out better, blah, blah. Anxiety flares up, that I am the only one responsible for taking care of me and S2, and I need to make strong, good decisions. None of this does any good, of course. But I have the intrusive thoughts, so I am trying to combat them and replace them with God's truth, and then reach out here because this is a safe place to process negative feelings. It's about the car, but it really is about me and my insecurities. I don't feel capable. So, when I think "I'm not capable", I will choose to think "I can do all things through Christ who gives me strength." When I think, "I will never be able to change; I will probably always let others take advantage of me" I will think instead, "He who began a good work in me will bring it to completion on the day of Christ Jesus." I also can just say "I cast down arguments and theories and every proud thought that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, leading every thought captive away into the obedience of Christ."
I don't always do that, but I am practicing. I guess this is some of the aftermath of the craziness I just came out of. I have always struggled with self-esteem, and a r/s with a pwBPD did not impact that in a positive way.
Thanks for reading and replying! I hope all is going well with you. I appreciate you taking the time to respond.

Blessings and peace to you,

Redeemed

[Harley Quinn]

Hi Redeemed,

If you were to ask your CW's bf to get the money back for the car and you'll find another yourself, what would happen?  Do you know?  Or could you only find out by asking?  What do want to do?

Love and light x

[I Am Redeemed]

Hi HQ,

I don't know. I guess the only way to find out for sure is to do it. I talked to CW today and she agrees that I either need the car or the money back. At this point, if he doesn't have the money to give back for the car, then I will accept the car, fixed or not, and will take it to someone else to fix it. I have financial aid money coming in from school, so paying for a car repair would not break me. CW bf just left to go on a trip and will be gone for ten days. If I don't have the car issue resolved by the time he comes back, I will tell him I need to go get the car, fixed or not. I am planning to drive it until I have saved x amount of $, and then I plan on trading it in for a "soccer mom" van. I have a lawyer appointment to see about getting unlimited visitation with D10, D9, S6, S5, and D4, who live with my sister and are currently under her legal guardianship. My sister needs help with taking all the kids to their various activities. S6 is going to play soccer if I get my visitation limitation lifted, and I will be able to take S2 to see his brother practice and play games, so a van would be appropriate!

 I am learning (slowly) that defining boundaries also means speaking up when I feel that I am not being treated fairly in r/s other than personal. I have a lot to learn, but it's starting to sink in. One thing my former T used to ask me when I talked about having anxiety was "What is the worst that could happen?" Then we would talk through the "worst-case" scenario until my anxiety about it lessened, and I could gain clarity on my perspective.

Avoidance has been my MO for handling uncomfortable situations, but if I am going to experience any growth or maturity or learn any type of healthy skills, that has to go. I have to force myself out of my comfort zone, or I will stay stuck.

Thanks for replying HQ!

Blessings and peace,

Redeemed

[Radcliff]

I find myself doing things a certain way sometimes, or making decisions, and I think "uBPDh would probably be mad about this." And then I remember- I don't have to worry about that. I no longer have to tailor my life to fit his distorted thinking. I didn't really have to before- I just did it.

Redeemed, I am so happy for all the peace you have, and all you are doing with it.  Pretty much everything you said resonated with me, but I called out the quote above, because I had the exact same feeling!  One specific example that comes to mind was when I cooked dinner for D12 and I slightly overdid or underdid whatever it was, and I didn't get ridiculed!  I heard a voice inside me ridiculing, and I just let it go!  D12 and I enjoyed the meal!

WW

[Harley Quinn]

Hi Redeemed

Great news on the progress with the kids and your plans with your sister!  This is wonderful.  Just look at the steps you are taking in getting your life where you want it to be!

I have to force myself out of my comfort zone, or I will stay stuck.

I hear you on this.  The first step is the hardest and after that it begins to get easier.  I'm seeing lots of deliberate progress here, which is fantastic.  Good on you for taking control of the car situation and having that resolve.  I know how uncomfortable it can feel to go against our usual ways of coping.  Avoidance has been a lifelong friend for me too.  Your former therapist sounds good!

Boundaries are a challenge for a large number of us, and you seem to be taking the right view to applying them to your life.  What I find helpful for myself is to ask myself what is important to me in order to pin down my values.  Do you have a good sense of your values in relationships with others and how do you define your boundaries around these?

Love and light x

[Radcliff]

Redeemed,

I'm catching up a bit.  Good luck with the "soccer mom" van!  That sounds pretty exciting, actually, to a soccer dad!  We had a van to cart our kids around for the longest time, and it was great.  I like the symbolism, too, and the fact that it will mean that you can help your sister more with your kids!  All good things!  And if S6 gets involved in soccer, that's great.  Some of my favorite memories of parenting are from watching my kids play soccer.

Good luck with the car repair.  Hopefully it's not too bad.  Radiator trouble is not great, but there are much scarier things that can go on inside a car, budget-wise.

WW

[Mustbeabetterway]

Hi Redeemed,  wow!  You are making great progress.  Each time you take action and deal with an uncomfortable issue instead of avoiding it, you become stronger.  Success begets success.  Keep up the good work.

I’m excited for you to have the opportunity to be more involved with your children. 

Just remember, there will be setbacks, but don’t give up.  Sometimes, I have to be satisfied with baby steps.  In fact, that’s usually where I find my greatest victories.  Just a small step at a time.

Congratulations on making needed changes.  You are so brave!

Mustbe

[I Am Redeemed]

Hi all, thanks for your replies.

Harley, I don't know if I ever really thought about specifics in terms of values I have in relationships. I guess I just generally refer to the "Golden Rule" when dealing with others, and hope that they do the same with me. I am not a person who expects others to be perfect. People are flawed, and we all make mistakes. I want to be a person who forgives and I want to be forgiven. I want to be a person who serves others, and I want my needs to be heard and met if possible. I want to be a person who is trustworthy, and I want to have r/s with people I can trust, whether it is a personal or professional r/s. I want to be respectful and be treated with respect. I want to be loyal and not be betrayed. I want to protect and to be protected. I want to extend grace and mercy, show kindness, be generous, be honest and faithful, be reliable, be consistent, have self-control, share, lend support, and have these things reciprocated. I want to do all of these things without the expectation of reciprocation as motivation, but simply because that is how Jesus told us to treat others. I understand there will be times when someone in my life does not reciprocate the kind of treatment I value. That is where boundaries come in and that is where my mind, who insists on complicating everything, begins to ask questions that slowly, almost imperceptibly, blur the lines for me on what I should tolerate and what I should not.

For instance, I might think, "I am not getting my needs met. But I am not supposed to think more highly of myself than I ought. Right? that's what the Bible says. I am supposed to keep loving and meeting others' needs even when they are not meeting mine, and pray for them. Jesus came to serve and not be served. I am supposed to follow His example... ." and so on, until I am pushing back the lines of what is "not right" vs. "completely unacceptable, or damaging , and (in the case of my marriage)possibly traumatizing". I might even make excuses for other people, or myself for allowing my boundaries to be fluid.

That is the first complication; the second is when I actually do get a sense that I am being wronged in a way that requires a boundary to be set in order for the mistreatment to stop, then I don't know how to go about it. I start finding the failure in any attempt to set a boundary. I "retreat into my shell" much like a snail would if it could look across the yard and think "wow, that yard looks pretty big. I don't know how to cross it."

That's what I have been doing for a couple of days now. I have been feeling overwhelmed. I have some decisions to make regarding the car, my living situation, my husband, my finances, and I am super tired and stressed. I have been irritable and anxious. I also suffered an allergic reaction to a couple of bug bites this weekend and had severe swelling in my arm which required medical treatment. S2 got bitten a whole lot as well, but he did not have the reaction I did. We both still went to the doctor. Antibiotics, steroids, antihistamines and a cortisone shot for me; antihistamines and hydro cortisone cream for S2. He has insurance. I don't. It cost me money I was not wanting to spend. But I was kind of afraid there was infection (there was) and it might spread to my bloodstream if I didn't go (not impossible) and then thoughts of eventual hospitalization and amputation made me decide to go spend the money. So... .the shot made the swelling tolerable enough for me to go to work. No having to learn how to wait tables with a prosthetic arm.

I guess I just feel so indecisive all the time. I never just say with certainty, "Oh that's obviously the best course of action for me. That's what I'm going to do" and then do it. The decisions I do make seem to backfire, lots of times. (I will not say all the time, because that is "all or nothing" thinking and I try to catch myself when I do that because it is not realistic.) I get discouraged, and then I renew my determination. I pray and remember that God is my provider and He will guide me. I know I could improve my mood with more sleep and less energy drinks and cigarettes. (Yes, I am a Christian who still smokes. I have it on the to-do list, I promise.) I don't even pretend that I eat healthy. I don't, and I admit it, and furthermore, I don't have the motivation to do it. (There, I said it.)

I hear people say all the time "Well you just focus on taking care of yourself and that baby." But what does "taking care" really look like? That is such a broad term. What are the levels of care I should be achieving? Who determines what these standards of care are and if I am meeting them? How do I know what is being lazy with taking care and what will come with time? Am I prioritizing the "care" details right? Where should I look for a place to move, and when, and how much, and should I live alone or with a roommate, can I afford it, and is it too soon, am I rushing it. Why have I not made more effort to get into therapy? Shouldn't that be a priority? What about finding a consistent church home? I want S2 to have a church family he grows up knowing. On and on and on. My mind and its persistent complications of everything is exhausting me.

When that happens, I want to go back in the snail shell. Sometimes I do, for a little while. I might just exhausted from doing All The Things I Have To Do that I rebel and do something that I want to do instead of something I should be doing. It might even be constructive, like posting here or reading or writing. Or it might be that I lose myself in negative feelings for a while and start allowing anxious and fearful thoughts, or angry and frustrated thoughts, to bounce around my mind for a while. I might just sit and stare out the window or door while I let the thoughts run rampant. But... .I do not allow them to continue. I stop them, sometimes later than I should, but I make the conscious choice to say "NO. I do not wish to continue this line of destructive and unproductive thinking."

I guess I am learning how to set boundaries with my own negative thought patterns. Good job Redeemed! Yay for me.

The way I know I have made some progress is that even when I go back in the snail shell for a while... .I come back out. There was a dark, dark time before when I just couldn't do that. I didn't know how. So I guess, if I learned how to not rock tight in the snail shell and stay there, I can learn how to make decisions without a million complex questions bombarding me. I can learn how to prioritize and not feel guilty about pushing some things to the bottom of the list. I can learn how to feel confident in myself to get important things done, and in my parenting skills:I might be that mom that fed her kid an Oreo first thing this morning. But I made sure he had a safe environment to eat that Oreo in, didn't I- heck yes, I did. Good job, Redeemed.   You took care of S2 today. Let's celebrate... .another round of Oreo's is in order.

[I Am Redeemed]

Update on the car issue... .

They are having to take the whole front end out to diagnose the gasket head issue and then also put a cluster in. It is a big job. I still don't know when it will be fixed, or if it can be, but the guy is at least working on it. Just frustrating and I am not always good at being patient. 

I did speak to uBPDh. He had his court hearing yesterday, and he agreed to a plea bargain but refuses to say how long he has to spend in jail. He did say he had initially agreed to a plea bargain that included mental health treatment, but in court the plea bargain changed. His brother, who is in jail with him (yeah, it's that kind of FOO) told their mother that the deal was for uBPDh to serve 2-4 years. UBPDh did tell me that he was going to church and taking classes, that he was trying to work on his issues any way he could and that he "had some time to do that now." He asked if I could send him some money for commissary. I said I would see what I could do. Now I feel like I am being a pushover again. I don't know if I am doing what I am "supposed" to do in terms of being a mentally healthy person. I am so unsure of my own motives and choices that I don't even know if having compassion on my husband who is in jail, whether we are together or not, is "right" or "wrong"... .

Self-doubt. Wondering if I stepped into a trap by allowing contact. He is my kids' father, and I wanted to hear what he is facing in terms of a sentence. Also curious if he would own up. He does admit fault, but then attaches "mitigating factors" which include blaming drugs, other people, stress, depression as contributing to him ultimately making bad decisions which caused him to physically harm me and endanger our son. He said he had admitted to one charge (probably the simple assault) but not the other (probably the aggravated) because he could not remember doing it. Whatever. I am not getting into a "Yes you did" conversation. He said he chose not to have it taken to the grand jury because that would have required me to testify and he did not want me to have to go through that. Sounds nice, but I think it had more to do with him not wanting to wait several more weeks just to go in front of the grand jury and have them believe me, because with his record there's not much he could do to convince them I was not telling the truth.

He did say that he is going to have to accept responsibility for his own actions. I almost fainted. There was no blaming attached to that one statement. Not that time. I guess it was sinking in that he is going to be sitting in jail for a while, with no chance of getting out. That must be a terrible feeling.

He is still having delusional thinking. One of my co-workers has the same last name as the DA, so uBPDh has decided that they are related and that my co-worker "knows what's going on." Said that anything I say at my job gets back to him. Asked me if I believed that. I said "no, I don't" and resisted the urge to discuss that further.

Says he has had headaches and been rocking back and forth in his cell. Said the other night his head hurt so bad he prayed and prayed and God came to him and healed him of the pain, and "pulled him down into the Bible" and he was swimming around in the words. Says God gave him supernatural understanding of the Bible. He quotes it a lot, but there is a twist to it. I don't know how to describe it but it isn't normal. I'm sure there is some psychological term for it. He attaches meaning to Biblical scripture that is, I guess, delusional, for lack of a better word. He is also still attaching meaning to numbers that come up in every day life, such as his weight (144.6, we have 6 kids. That "means something".

He apologized that they did not court order him to mental health treatment. He said he knows that is what I want. I told him that he will not be in jail forever, and he can make the choice to seek treatment on his own when he is able to do that. He said he will, for the kids, and I told him that he should also do it for his own quality of life. I told him "you don't want to keep living this way." He agreed that he does not.

I don't know where all this is going. It's just a lot to think about and process. I have been more stressed since I allowed contact because I did break down and start yelling at him at one point and had to hang up because I got mad at myself for losing control. On the other hand, I was being eaten up with questions about whether or not he was getting treatment, was he going back to prison, would he even acknowledge how he hurt me, etc. I don't know if I opened a can of worms by allowing contact. But at some point he will get out, and then there will be co-parenting to discuss. He has not lost rights to the kids irrevocably, but there will probably be lots of restrictions on when and how he can see them when he is released.

At least I have a great r/s with my MIL. She was married to his daddy for 7 years, and we have swapped stories about our experiences. Sounds like uBPDh's father was uBPD also. Maybe npd as well. I am glad that my r/s with MIL is sound and will continue regardless of my separation from uBPDh. She loves me like a daughter, and I love her like a mom, and that doesn't have to stop.

I don't know what to do next. Yes I do. I am contacting my former T tomorrow. I believe that I can surely find one of my friends to help watch S2 for an hour and a half once a week or so while I get back into therapy. I put it off too long because I am a procrastinator and I don't like asking for help. But this is too much to process and I could benefit from a professional counselor. I keep pretending I am okay, but this is hard and I admit that I need a little extra support now.

So glad you guys are here.

Redeemed

[Mustbeabetterway]

Hi Redeemed,  I just wanted to say I hear you.  You are doing a good job of dealing with problems and not avoiding.  That’s difficult, but I think it’s the only way to truly get to a better place in life.  With that said, not everything has to be dealt with at once.  Like a snail - slow and steady wins the race.

Hang in there.

Mustbe

[I Am Redeemed]

Thanks Mustbe,

Sometimes I feel like I am trying to deal with a piece of this over here and a piece of that over there because there is so much at once. I get overwhelmed a little trying to figure out what should get my focus and what I can leave alone for now. I suppose that is where T would come in.

How are you doing? Sounds like you are hanging in there too. Thanks for your encouragement.

Redeemed

[Mustbeabetterway]

Hi Redeemed, yes Therapy would probably help sort out the priorities. It really does sound like you are slowly working things out. 

I am hanging in there.  I am gradually processing all that has happened.  Sometimes I am flooded with uncomfortable memories, but I am working to move forward.

Take care,

Mustbe

[Radcliff]

Hello Redeemed,

Thanks for the detailed updates!  Good luck with the car.  I had a car one time that blew a transmission, and right after I paid a ton of money to fix it, it blew a head gasket!  I knew when I saw engine oil mixed in with the coolant it was a bad, bad thing.

I can relate to feeling overwhelmed with multiple priorities.  Frankly, I deal best with only one thing at a time!  I find it helps to get a piece of paper and write them all out, then figure out which ones can be delayed until later.  Then, give yourself permission to not worry about the ones you've decided to delay and focus on just what you've decided you have the brain space to focus on immediately.

Great news on the T!  You are dealing a ton of stuff.  It is in fact, far too much to process without hope.

I can completely relate to your urge to contact your husband, and your misgivings about it.  When my wife first left our house on the restraining order, we had thing to talk about like the kids and getting her therapy and batterer program set up.  I had several text conversations with her that went on for up to four hours.  My therapist was very helpful in supporting me to put some boundaries around that.  I noticed that the less contact I had with my wife, the healthier I was.  We only text and e-mail, and I've completely stopped having any sort of interactive conversations with my wife over text.  Half the time she texts, I'll respond by e-mail.  I am way less stressed out.

I would recommend that you think hard about what kind of contact with your husband is healthy for you.  You can change it over time.  If you need some space to heal and get your bearings, you can go to low or no contact for a bit.  If you want more contact you can always increase it.  One other thing to add is that greatly reducing my contact with my wife was very important to giving me the head space I needed to think about the future of our relationship, if I could ever feel safe with her again, etc.  It was hard to think about any of that when I was still sucked into trying to "fix" her and take care of her.

That is fantastic that you have a great relationship with your mother-in-law.  I bet if you decide to ramp down your contact with your husband, she could be a good person to keep in touch with him, feed him news about the kids, etc. so you can feel more comfortable having space if you need it.

I'm jumping around a bit, but you asked about self care.  I've been working on that, too.  If you are asking what's lazy and what's self care, then almost certainly you are working too hard and not doing enough self care!  If you are going from waking to bedtime only doing working a job, caring for S2, tending your home, or doing things for other people, you need more self care!  Self care is anything that repairs your body, mind, or spirit.  The doctor is self care.  I'm glad you still have two arms!  Don't worry about being lazy.  You'll know.  I've had a chance to sleep in a few times recently, and I enjoyed it, then enjoyed it some more, until I hit a point where I'm like, "OK, now this is ridiculous, I need to get out of bed."  I guess what I'm saying is that starting from where you are, take it to the edge of ridiculous.  Take a hot bath until you have shrunken prune hands.  Read a book as long as you can get away with it.  If you are making a living waiting tables and you are taking care of a small child, the chances that you are going to be lazy are precisely... .zero.

One last thing, I can't remember if I've mentioned it before, but if you're interested in boundaries in a Christian context, "Boundaries" by Cloud and Townsend is the book for you.  For all I know I already recommended it on this thread, and you've already said you read it, but I'm too tired to check!

WW

[I Am Redeemed]

Hi WW,

I just finished a short daily devotional on my You Version bible app that was based on the Boundaries book by Cloud and Townsend. The devotional was just a small tidbit of the book, but it was helpful and it made me want to get the actual book to read. I really liked how they describe boundaries as being fences that define parameters, but with gates that open so that we don't shut out love or shut in fear.

I guess I just have lived with criticism so long (since I was a child; my father was very critical) I tend to always feel like I am doing something the wrong way, or not handling everything well. I am trying to remember that I am my worst critic, and I can make me hush. Leftover residue from verbal abuse still sticks to my thought patterns, but I can choose to reverse that and be kind to myself in my internal monologues.

I love making lists! I am such a nerd that way, and I don't care! I know my ultimate goals, and I am working towards them. I feel like I am in limbo in a way with the whole car situation and moving out on my own, but I am trying to take it a day at a time and not rush. It will happen the way God has it planned.

I have noticed that I am more stressed and on edge since I resumed contact with uBPDh. The good thing is that I can easily limit contact, because I have set a budget on the phone calls I am willing to pay for in order to talk to him, and I do not have to answer when I don't want to. He would call three times a day daily if I let him, but 3 conversations lasting 15 minutes each is way over what I can handle daily- financially, emotionally or mentally. I don't have to answer the phone if I don't want to, either, regardless of how much he calls. His mother can only handle limited contact with him as well, because he stresses her out too.

I can already see how he is trying to manipulate me, just from our brief conversations. He emphasizes how much he is studying the Bible. He says he is going to get mental health treatment when he gets out. He said he would probably be out in time to take S2 to the ball park. I said he wasn't going anywhere with S2 alone without some mental health treatment, and anyway, he will probably have to go back in front of the family court judge to get visitation with any of the kids. He said he understood, but the next day he said something about us "working together on our issues without putting stipulations on each other like 'you can't see the kids unless you get treatment, etc'."
I told him once more that there is no way I am putting S2 at risk and I am not going to do anything that will risk me losing custody of him. That means abiding by the order of protection, which apparently uBPDh has decided is not valid for reasons I couldn't decipher.    He also told me that he discussed our situation with some of his cell buddies, (who are the best candidates to give advice on what I should do, I'm sure) and they all wondered why I don't just get another car and move in with my MIL. I see this as an attempt to manipulate me as well. Of course he would be more comfortable if I was living with MIL. She lives an hour away almost, in a very rural area. I would have to change jobs, which would take me away from the support system I have gained in my co-workers (threat to him) and I would be in "his" environment still- MIL lives in uBPDh's hometown. Her health is not good, and she can't care for S2 while I work. I don't have any other friends or resources in that town. There is no way I would leave the job I have had for almost three years to move in with MIL and have to put S2 in daycare. Not to mention I am not buying another car, although I suspect this "plan" of his is motivation for his offer to have me file his taxes separately from mine and let him claim S2, which will pay his back child support on the other kids, and then I can "keep the rest of the money if I will just send him some every week." I also suspect pushback if I don't agree to take his tax refund, buy another car, quit my job and move in with his mother an hour away from the entire support system I have built here.

No dice. I ain't doin' it.

I see him laying the foundation for certain "traps" for me and I refuse to jump in them. He is going to find out that time is not going to change my mind about my resolve to live free from abuse and danger. I doubt that I will ever feel safe in close proximity to him again. Maybe he can enter recovery and we can navigate the waters of co-parenting, but even that is a distant goal at this point. I do pray for him, and I hope his mental health will become stable. However, I do not stake my future or my kids' future on that hope- not anymore.

I realize that I can lower my stress level even when I communicate with him when I consciously acknowledge to myself that he is still very, very ill, and I don't have to try to reason or JADE because it will not do any good. I use our conversations to tell him about S2, and listen to him, and keep most of my opinions to myself. I make no solid promises nor do I disclose many details about my plans. I try to keep my responses simple, and if I hear something off the wall that I don't know how to respond to then I just don't say anything. I remember that I can set boundaries and stick to them. If he reacts negatively to that, then it's not my problem. If he wants to get well and be a father to his kids, then he will do it. If not, well- my kids will still have me. If that's the worst that can happen, I can live with that.

Since I like lists so much, I think maybe I will start a "self-care" list and pick one thing on the list to do for myself every day. Right now, self care looks like eating a big piece of pie while I post on here. I only ate one half, but I think I deserve to eat the other half as well. Since I am supposed to start with "ridiculous" and all   the size of the piece of this pie is ridiculous!

But it's so good

Blessings and peace,

Redeemed

[Radcliff]

Redeemed, I believe we are both thinking similarly -- to set a very high standard for what we deserve, and to hold to that.  If our spouses can meet it, great.  Though I wonder if the standard I've set is even attainable by my wife.  Maybe not.  And maybe that's OK.  Even one empathy fail, or one impulsive lashing out gives me flashbacks to the old days.  It is surprising, though, how certain exposures, like D17 telling me I'm being too hard on her mother and exaggerating things, can weaken my resolve.  Be ready for that.

I slept in until about 10am this morning.  D12 checked on me at 9am "to make sure you're still alive," and then when I appeared at 10, she gave me a good natured hard time.  I told her that I was telling a friend who was having trouble relaxing to "take it to the edge of ridiculous," and that this morning, I certainly had done that!  Tomorrow, I'll make it a point to appear more industrious!

I'm extremely impressed with how clearly you're calling out the traps your husband is laying for you.  I think you're sizing the situation up accurately, and making good decisions.   

Keep us posted!

WW

[I Am Redeemed]

WW, I agree. I am making my focus on my goals and what I want to accomplish, not what he accomplishes (or doesn't.) What I am going to do is heal, process, learn how to set healthy boundaries, be consistent, be a good mother, integrate more and more visitation time with my five older children and eventually file for custody to be restored to me, finish school, start a writing career, serve God, and be happy with me. Whatever my uBPDh does or does not do is not going to affect any of that. I will never say that God doesn't work miracles, because He does, but I am proceeding with the "most likely" outcome in mind, which is that the threat of violence will not completely be eliminated. That is what I call "balance"- I leave my mind open to God's infinite wisdom and power, I leave my heart open to His grace and mercy, and I leave my will in His hands.

-Redeemed

[Radcliff]

WW, I agree. I am making my focus on my goals and what I want to accomplish, not what he accomplishes (or doesn't.) What I am going to do is heal, process, learn how to set healthy boundaries, be consistent, be a good mother, integrate more and more visitation time with my five older children and eventually file for custody to be restored to me, finish school, start a writing career, serve God, and be happy with me. Whatever my uBPDh does or does not do is not going to affect any of that. I will never say that God doesn't work miracles, because He does, but I am proceeding with the "most likely" outcome in mind, which is that the threat of violence will not completely be eliminated. That is what I call "balance"- I leave my mind open to God's infinite wisdom and power, I leave my heart open to His grace and mercy, and I leave my will in His hands.

-Redeemed

That nails it!    B.t.w., I think your writing career has already begun, right here.

Keep us posted on the car and the kids!

How much time do you have until you finish school?  Sorry, you may have already said this.

WW

[I Am Redeemed]

WW,

The program I am in is an accelerated degree program. It takes between 24 and 36 months, depending on whether you have all the core classes needed. They will let you begin the program if you have 60 credits, whether they are the required classes or not, and then you just pick up the missing core classes as you can along the way. I have maybe three or four classes to add to the degree program classes in order to graduate. Normally I would have mapped out a plan with my advisor for the entire program to see which classes to take each term, but we decided to take it one semester at a time because of all the drama last fall. She actually asked if I wanted to sit out this semester but I said "No way." I am already having to repeat two classes that I failed during all the chaos and fallout from leaving and serving the protective order. I am not going to get any more behind. The program is great because I only take one class at a time, 12 weeks for one and then 12 weeks for another, and I do it online. That's about all I can handle with work and S2, not to mention baby-sitting for my co-worker (who also baby-sits for me). That's like a second job itself- she has three kids, S3, S1, and D4mos!

CW BF said the shop flooded where my car is, so that will put off the repair even more. We are starting to call BS on a lot of things he has said. It's a little creepy- I think this guy is a patho liar. He has also made some veiled threats to her in texts which she has saved, and  she is actually planning an undercover "escape", if you will, from her r/s- she has been ready to leave for a while but did not have the confidence. No physical abuse, but a lot of emotional and psychological abuse. I think this guy displays a lot of NPD traits. Anyway, we are planning a covert move to another house on our own with our children. She is nervous. He is super controlling. I am nervous too. I think it was the hand of God that guided me to this website, because I have learned a lot about planning exits on here.

Ever heard of "jumping out of the frying pan into the fire"? Well, this may not be as hot as the "pan" I was in, but same idea. Just my luck, I guess.

I will keep y'all updated on the kid situation. Going to see my lawyer tomorrow about petitioning for unsupervised visitation. D10 said she wants S2 to sleep over. That was her request when I asked her what she wanted for Easter. So sweet. I know my kids miss their little brother. God willing, they will get to see him more very soon.

Blessings and peace,

Redeemed

[Radcliff]

Redeemed, thanks for the update!  Good luck with the degree program!  I took one class at a time for many years.  One of the things I liked was when each class hit the transcript, it felt like forward progress had been cemented in.  I knew I'd get there eventually!

I am kind of chuckling about the car, because "pathological liar" is not really a great quality for someone you've entrusted your car to.  Maybe the only worse thing would be to have a therapist who is a pathological liar.  That would definitely be worse.  So, there are some really good, really honest mechanics out there.  Any thoughts of biting the bullet and having the car towed somewhere else?

WW

[I Am Redeemed]

Hi WW,

Yeah, I'm on the same page with you about the car thing. The mechanic who actually has my car is a friend of my co-worker/roommates boyfriend, the one she is trying to get away from. The bf is the one who lies about everything. The mechanic guy is the one I bought the car from. He had taken it and fixed it because it didn't run for over two years, and then sold it to me via co-worker's bf. It ran fine for about three weeks. Idler tensioner went out, I replaced that, but the heat stopped working. Co-worker's bf put coolant in it and bled the lines, but I think he didn't bleed them enough and it caused my car to overheat and start spraying antifreeze all over my windshield on the side of the road. A very nice family stopped to help me, and the man who pulled over was a mechanic. He told me what he thought probably happened, and it confirmed my suspicion that co-worker's bf only halfway bled the lines. Co-worker's bf is also a certified mechanic except now he drives a truck for a living. Anyway, several things don't add up and it is my suspicion that something cw's bf did to my car caused it to overheat and blow a head gasket, and then he dumped it off on his mechanic friend to fix, because the guy sold it to me with the stipulation that he would fix it should anything go wrong. The shop is an hour away from where we live. Last week my co-worker/roommate texted the mechanic friend herself and asked about my car, and he said they were taking the whole front end out to look at all the gaskets. Cw bf was out of town at the time; when he got back he told me the shop had been flooded and it might take longer to fix my car. I don't even know if that's true. Probably not.  I am really getting impatient with the whole thing though, and I am considering just going to get the car and take it to someone else. Not sure of the cost or who I would take it to, but... .it's really frustrating me.

I've never had to deal with this stuff before. My uBPDh is a mechanic. He has worked on cars for nearly 30 years, and he always handled this kind of stuff. This is all new to me and I feel like I have made a mess for myself, which is even more frustrating. This on top of looking for a place to move, which initially was going to be just S2 and myself, but now my roommate is wanting to come with us. She has wanted to leave her r/s for a while but has been conflicted bc they have a child, but she has come to the conclusion that she can't trust bf and she also is frustrated bc he leaves her with all the responsibility for paying bills and taking care of the day to day household business, as well as their S1. Plus she works as a waitress, more shifts than even I work. Add to that the repeated infidelity in her r/s, and she is about to blow a head gasket herself.

I try to help my roommate as much as possible. She is young (24, that's young to me- I'm 40) and she is trying to make the best choices for herself and her son, just like I am. We both tend to be people who let others run over us. I am still trying to learn how to not do that. It's a step at a time thing, like anything else. We'll get there.

I can't wait to see some classes checked off on my transcript. I will actually just be happy to see the "Incomplete" change to an "A". Because I'm going to get an "A", I just know it. My teacher told my advisor I am one of the best writers in the class. That made me almost cry. But I was having an exceptionally emotional day that day. I really am fortunate to have found this degree program. It's through a local private Christian university, well respected and really what I thought to be unattainable for me financially. But God had other plans, so here I am.

You know of any other good books about boundaries? I plan to pick up the Cloud and Townsend book tomorrow.

Thanks, WW. Blessings and peace,

Redeemed

[I Am Redeemed]

Update on kids:

Met with lawyer today. She says I definitely need to have at least one bedroom in my home that can be used for my kids to come visit overnight, even if I have to do the two older ones one week and the three younger ones the next. My co-worker/roommate and I are already house hunting for a four bedroom house or a three bedroom with an extra dining room/study that could be used for a bedroom. My kids are excited, especially D9 and D10, because my roommate does hair and makeup and she has offered to give them "makeovers" when they come.

S6 is having lots of trouble in school. He has screaming fits of rage, and does not listen to the teacher. Once he hit his teacher, another time he stabbed a classmate with a pencil. He goes to in-school suspension as many as three times a week. Sometimes they just give up and call my sister (his legal guardian) to come pick him up from school. A counseling center is supposed to come out and observe him, because he only does this at school. He knows he can't get away with it at home. If he does not change his behavior before first grade next year, he could possibly be put in the alternative school.

I am hoping that having more time with me will alleviate some of this behavior. S6 and I were bonded very closely before he was removed from me, the same way S2 and I are now. S6 has been in at least three foster homes before he was permanently placed with my sister, but I know he still hurts because he wants to be with me. I feel as though our r/s has drifted apart because of the extended separation, and because limited visitation has made it hard for me to have one-on-one bonding time with any of my children. My hope is that we find a house soon and can get a petition filed at least by April. Family court is only held on the last Wed of every month in this small town, so I don't see us being ready by the end of March. My lawyer feels like I have a good chance of getting overnight visits if the home passes a home study by CASA and also if my sister supports the unsupervised visitation, which she does now that uBPDh is not in my home. I don't know what lies in the future regarding his visitation or what part I will have to play in that, since I still have custody of S2, but I can't worry about that right now. I am anxious to get this house situation moving forward so I can finally have my kids at least spend the night on the weekends.

Blessings and peace to all of you,

Redeemed

[Radcliff]

Redeemed,

Good luck with school, that sounds awesome!

It sounds like you have a plan with your kids and are building towards it carefully.  That is fantastic.

For your son that is acting out, my knee-jerk reaction these days is to recommend "Transforming the Difficult Child:  The Nurtured Heart Approach."  Not to say he's a difficult child, but the book has a strategy that works for any kid.  The gist of it is to give them a lot of attention for neutral things, making observational comments like about what they're wearing, what toys they're playing with, etc.  Neutral comments make them feel like you're paying attention and care about them, but don't contain ammunition for disagreement like positive or negative comments.  (Positive comments are good, too, but the neutral ones get used more often).  When you give consequences, they are given with no drama.  So if the kid wants engagement, they get nothing for acting out.  When you give a consequence, you actually let them have control, "If you choose to scream, that is OK with me, but then we can't watch a movie tonight.  Either way, it's your decision."  There are other neat tips like manufacturing success.  If the kid sits quietly for 10 seconds in between bouts of screaming, when he is quiet you compliment him for behaving so nicely at that moment.  The stuff really works.  It also has a bunch of coverage at extending the success to school.  My therapist recommended it to me when I was talking about the struggle of establishing parental authority with D12 when my wife had undermined it so much.  You've got a similar situation in that you're coming from behind after a separation from your son.

Tough news on the car.  Taking apart the whole front end and checking all the gaskets does not sound like cheap work to have someone else do.  It also sounds like it would be a pain in the neck for someone who wasn't getting paid for it, and would likely be at the bottom of their priority list.  An hour away is far, sorry to hear that.  Do you think you could go direct and talk to the mechanic yourself, and not go through the boyfriend?  That would help you size up the situation better.  Can someone give you a ride there to check things out for yourself?  Putting your own eyes on the situation will really tell you the story.

WW

[I Am Redeemed]

Thanks, WW, I will look for that book. I think it will help me with all my kids, since I haven't had much time to spend with them in so long. They each have their own personalities and quirks, which is great. S6 is really a very sweet boy. He never acted out at our visits, nor does he do it at home or at church. Only school for some reason. He wants to be in control, the teacher said. He will not listen, and if he does not get his way he has screaming fits of rage. Nothing the teachers or principal did could change his behavior. I have never heard of a kindergartner being sent to alternative school, but today the teacher informed my sister that he is being placed there Monday. They never told us he was even on the list to go, only that he could possibly end up there if his behavior did not improve by first grade. A counseling service was supposed to come observe him in the classroom, but they have yet to go to the school. I guess now they will be observing him at alternative school.

My roommate has the number for the mechanic, so I can now contact him without the mediator of the bf (or ex bf, I should say, since they are technically broken up though still living in the same house- but we are about to fix that) and if we can get our schedules to coordinate then I'm sure she would take me up there to the shop. She works even more shifts than I do, even while taking care of her son, who is 8 months younger than my S2.

I am trying not to get frustrated by all this. I try to trust that God has a plan and nothing is a surprise to Him, so He has everything lined up the way it is supposed to happen. Nothing is too hard for God. If I stop thinking about all the stuff "I have to do" and remember to lean on Him wholly and completely, I struggle a lot less and feel a lot more content. I ask Him daily for guidance, and then I ask for the wisdom to know how to follow that guidance.

House hunting is actually exciting. I am hoping we can find a suitable house that is within our budget at least by April 1. I really don't want to have to pay another month on my storage unit if possible. I can't wait to get settled and get my kids' room decorated and set up. It will be so awesome to actually have them in my own home again.

Blessings and peace to you all,

Redeemed

[Harley Quinn]

Hi IAR,

Great news on the plans for getting set up in a new home soon, although sorry to hear that S6 is having such difficulties.  Hopefully stability in his life with more contact with you will help him to settle.  A new environment for him in another school might also allow him a fresh start.  He may bond better with the teachers there. 

Would it be a possibility to ask for a refund on the car and find another instead?  That way the guy would be able to repair and sell to someone else without you having to wait around for a vehicle.

Just on books on boundaries.  I read one recently called Boundaries after a Pathological Relationship.  It's only a slim book, but I felt it was simply written and to the point and that's what I was looking for.  (S4 doesn't give me much time for reading!)  The author is Adelyn Birch.  What I liked is the fact that she tasks you on doing the work of creating your boundaries, which is motivating to the reader to act upon.  Could be worth checking out.

I like your confidence in that A by the way.  That's the attitude!  Can you apply that to getting your car on the road?

Love and light x

[I Am Redeemed]

Hi Harley,

I am hoping that more time with me will help S6 stabilize his behavior more. My sister, his guardian, has a no-nonsense approach to child rearing, whereas I am a "try to understand and talk about it and work towards a solution together" type parent. I feel that more personal time with S6 will help him heal from the forced separation between us. He was only 16 months old when he was taken away. We were so bonded when he was a baby, just like S2 and I are now. I imagine that there are some unseen scars that have caused these dysfunctional behaviors.

I have considered asking for a refund on the car. I understand that he is not getting paid to fix this car, and I really don't want to tow it somewhere else and pay to have the head gaskets replaced because that is expensive. My roommate feels the same as I do, that six weeks is plenty of time to have fixed the car and he should either fix it or give me the money back. She also doesn't see him being willing to refund the money, so we are trying to figure out our next move. Probably we will be taking a trip up there to see the car ourselves and talk in person to the mechanic. It's too easy to blow someone off in a text, which has been the only form of communication thus far.

I feel sometimes like I am stuck in limbo. I was planning on moving out alone, but I wasn't sure how I could financially afford that, and also there was the transportation issue. Now my roommate is wanting to move with me, and we can share her car until I get mine fixed or get another one, but finding a house with someone else is more complicated than picking one out alone. The rent in this area is pretty steep for our income level, at least for the part of town we would prefer to live in and the size house we need. It's hard not to get impatient and frustrated. I am trying to take it one day at a time and save as much money as possible in the meantime. I need to buy a laptop for school. UBPDh wants to call every day from jail. I can't afford that, financially or emotionally. He is constantly trying to prove to me that he is changing. He is in a very religious phase and believes God has given him divine discernment of Scripture. I feel very conflicted even talking to him. It is very taxing on me emotionally and also I realize that he "expects" me to keep money on the phone account for him to call every day. Last week when I worked all day and did not answer the phone, he made some sarcastic comments the next day when I did answer about "my boyfriend must not have let me answer the phone." I didn't respond, and of course he wouldn't let that happen, so he said "what's wrong, you don't have anything to say about that" and I simply told him I was not going to respond to comments like that. I am not in the mood to talk about our r/s or explain my comings and goings and decisions to him. I am not going to apologize for not wanting to have a lot of contact. I do not feel comfortable with his attempts to draw me in closer as well as his repeated requests for money. He still operates with the mindset that we are a couple, and I operate with the mindset that we are separated. He still uses FOG tactics and I am trying to avoid falling for them.

I am trying to be mindful of my people pleasing tendencies. I don't think that is necessarily a bad quality, but I am trying to find where the line is that I shouldn't cross with that.

I need to check out some of these books everybody recommends. I love to read, though I don't have much time for it either. S2 loves books as well, and so my literary selections usually run toward Elmo, Big Bird, and Cookie Monster more than Cloud, Townsend and Birch . Maybe I can manage to squeeze in some grown up reading after he goes to sleep.

Thanks everyone for your replies.

Blessings and peace,

Redeemed

[Radcliff]

Redeemed,

Regarding communications with your husband, could you describe with some detail what you think would be healthy for you -- including frequency and allowable topics -- as well as where you are now?  Is phone the only method of communication he has?  Is e-mail not allowed?  It's much easier to get sucked in emotionally on the phone is why I'm asking.

WW

[I Am Redeemed]

Hi WW,

Regarding frequency of communication: the cost is a little stressing to me financially, but I realize that I am in charge of how much I am willing to spend for communication. I have uBPDh's mother's number linked to my account so he can talk to her also, and I figure I can sustain one 15 min phone call per day with the occasional call to her as well. He does not call her as much as he does me, and she is fine with that. He stresses her out and she has high blood pressure, plus she says he doesn't make sense and he is crazy. . Email is not available at his facility, which is in a rural county in the South. It would be an extra cost to me anyway. I do sometimes feel like I am paying more than I want to out of guilt or obligation, so I try to be mindful of that and remind myself that I do have a choice.

Our conversations consist mostly of him talking about the Scriptures he is reading. He is all about the Bible right now. He attends church and does Bible study, and is taking some type of faith-based class that as far as I can tell is a mixture of mental health and Bible. I don't mind these conversations. Mostly he talks and I listen, and I do take everything he says with a grain of salt because I have seen him get really into God and the Bible before after a binge with drugs. It did not last. Not saying it won't this time, and I do pray for him and his salvation, but, again, I am just trying to be mindful and not gullible. There is also a significant amount of delusional thinking going on. As I mentioned before, he talks about rocking back and forth on his bunk at night and quoting Scripture. He says God has given him supernatural understanding of the Bible, but he reads more symbolism into it than is actually there. I have learned to test my validation skills with this- I validate the valid, which is the Scripture and anything I hear that I consider to be the truth regarding the Scripture, and I do not validate the invalid, which are the delusional statements.

I give him information about the kids, such as S6 going to alternative school. I refuse to be drawn into circular arguments, manipulation tactics, or his attempts to have me commit to a promise to let him see the kids. He asked me that yesterday, and I made it clear that it was not up to me when he saw the kids, that it would be up to the courts and he should consult his family law attorney. He tried to get me to agree to a "family plan" with details such as him getting them on weekends, etc. I responded that I haven't even gotten unsupervised visitation with the older kids yet, and regaining custody is a far-off goal for me at this point because I cannot financially support myself and six kids alone right now- so there is no point even discussing plans for shared parenting with those children because I have no custodial rights to them currently, nor does he. As for S2, I told him that child services said he was not allowed contact until he passed a drug test. He said he thought they had closed my case. I said they did, but I had to sign a safety plan that said I understood the no contact between him and S2 until further notice, and that I would abide by the restrictions of the protective order. I made it clear that our paths regarding visitation and parenting rights to the children were completely separate at this point- whatever they tell me I have to do, I will do, and whatever they tell him he needs to do, he should do. I reiterated that he should consult his lawyer and stop trying to work something out with me.

Circular arguments and manipulation tactics: an example would be that I told him I was trading baby-sitting with one of my co-worker friends. Backstory on this: she and I worked together for over a year before her brother also got a job where we work. Her brother is a person I dated for two months thirteen years ago. I did not know he was her brother, nor have I seen him in almost thirteen years. We never lived together; our r/s was very casual and brief. However, uBPDh harassed me for over a year to get me to quit my job because this ex of mine now worked with me. He brought up that I was angry when he communicated with his exes. I told him I was angry because he maintained friendships and contact with his exes, on social media and in person, and lied to me about who these women were and their past together. Double standard, and he failed to see the difference in his behavior and mine. Anyway, I knew he would not like that I was trading baby-sitting with the sister of my ex, regardless of the fact that she is one of the best friends I have at work and she was in a bind and so was I with the child care issue, so we worked out a solution that helps us both. UBPDh tried several tactics to convince me that I should not keep our child care arrangement going. He cited Bible verses about marriage and submission. He told me I could ask for forgiveness and he would forgive me (to which I responded benignly that I was not going to ask for forgiveness for my child care arrangement simply because he felt jealous, and furthermore he is the one whose behavior put me in the position I am in now) and then he tried to switch tactics and say that he was "uncomfortable" with my friend watching hsi child because my ex used to use drugs (thirteen years ago; I don't know what he does now because we don't engage in conversations like that) and his sister, my friend, probably was just like him and therefore was an untrustworthy person/probable drug user by default. Now, this girl is night-and-day different from my ex. I cannot believe that they are even related in any way. "J", my co-worker/friend, does not even drink coffee. She doesn't smoke, drink, take drugs, or even eat unhealthy foods. She is probably the safest person my child could possibly be with other than me. So when he tried to start this crazy argument for the second time I hung up and refused to answer his calls until the next day. He apologized for offending me. I told him I wasn't going to waste my time and money for a phone call to listen to stupidity. That was probably not a great way to handle the situation, but my emotions got to me. I have very low tolerance for manipulation and/or circular arguments right now and I will not listen to it. Period.

I know he is trying to draw me back in and convince me that he is changing and has seen the light. It's going to take a lot more than quoting a few Scriptures. My goals for the immediate and even extended future do not include us together at this point. Our paths are too separate. He has so much further to go if he wants to have a r/s with the kids. He will probably be back on supervised visitation when he gets out of jail. I don't think he understands the damage control he is going to have to do. He speaks of repentance, and having Godly sorrow, but then he doesn't seem to grasp that he can't just walk out of jail and take my son to a baseball game. It doesn't work like that. I am trying in firm but gentle ways to let him know that I will not be able to walk this journey with him as a couple, as we did before when we were fighting child services to get custody of our kids back. Even then, it was more like me being the one to go to all the meetings (alone, without even my attorney there because she could never make it) and having to face all the twisted tricks and tactics and accusations of child services by myself while he hid under the cover of "I have to work" and did nothing but the things on the service plan that I couldn't do for him. This time he is on his own, and I will do what I have to do to maintain that he and I are separate- this is the only way I will get my kids back. My lawyer told me I don't have a chance if I don't make it clear that I will not go back to the abusive situation. So that's that. Ball's in his court. He tried to manipulate me into going to child support court the other day and talking to the judge for him. He said my name was on the subpoena. I said if it was, they would have served me, and since they didn't I wasn't going. He wanted me to go and back up his story about how he had hurt his shoulder in the summer and that caused him to relapse on drugs because he was just trying to keep going and work through the pain so he wouldn't lose his job and he could still support us. All that is garbage and I'm not going to join in the lie. I actually think he has convinced himself that's the truth, though, is the sad thing. He can never accept the real truth about himself.

So anyway, there's some details for you. I feel stronger than I did when I first allowed contact. I am getting better at setting boundaries. I just need help controlling strong emotion sometimes, mainly anger and frustration. I've never been very good at that. Any good books you know along that topic?

Can you relate to any of what I have mentioned? I am still a little (lot) raw regarding the flooding memories of abuse (particularly verbal and emotional) and I know I act out of a place of pain sometimes when I should remain calm. Part of healing, I guess. IF I am healing. Maybe I am.

Blessings and peace,

Redeemed

[Radcliff]

Hello Redeemed,

Thank you for all that detail!  That really helps to understand your situation.  I am pretty amazed at how well centered you appear to be able to be despite how much contact you've had with your husband.  You are a strong woman.

One part of my question that you didn't answer is how frequent the contact with him should be to best meet your needs.  One thing that struck me is that I took the length of your post, describing all the care, thoughtfulness, and strength you are using to maintain boundaries during these conversations, as a sign of the energy it is requiring of you.  Between work, kids, car, and your own healing, you already have huge demands on your energy.  How often do you want to talk to him?  If you were totally, ridiculously selfish, what would your answer be?

Regarding healing, can you remind us if you have a therapist (sorry if I've lost that detail)?

WW

[I Am Redeemed]

WW,

You know what... .I don't know. I don't need daily contact. That is more for him than it is for me. Our conversations are largely one-sided. I realize that I am one of the only people he can contact outside of the facility, and I also realize that I am the only way he can get any info on how the kids are doing. Do I get anything out of our contact? Only that I have begun tracking his mental and emotional state because I believe it has an impact on my children and whether or not they will have a r/s with their father EVER.

Sometimes it irritates me when he calls. Like when he woke me up yesterday morning. Yes, it was 830 and S2 usually wakes up around that time anyway, and I like to get up at least by then because I don't like to be rushed in the mornings. I like to be able to have a couple cups of coffee, check this website, check to see if there are any houses for rent, read a few Bible verses. But... .S2 wakes up in the middle of the night a lot. Usually he goes right back to sleep, but I don't. So... .this was one of those nights, and I was tired, and here the phone is ringing first thing in the morning. And again. And again. And again. And I finally just got up, but I ignored the calls until I made my coffee and changed S2 and let the dog out and drank at least two cups of coffee. Then I answered. But I didn't ask why did you wake me up and why did you call back to back. I already know why, and it doesn't matter- I can answer or not answer. I can put my phone on silent. There was no point in even getting into a discussion about that.

If I had to guess, I would say two to three times a week is probably all I would want to talk to him, because I don't really get anything out of our conversations except practice with the new skills like validation that I am learning here. But, okay, today he didn't call all day. And I find myself wondering why. Not obsessively, but still- it's crossed my mind several times today. And I think it's because I really want to tell him about Mother.

The nursing home called and asked if we wanted Mother to go to the ER today, because she seemed very confused. She did not recognize her normal caregiver and she could not remember her daughters' names. She had a brain scan which showed no bleeding or visible signs of stroke and was released back to the nursing home, but the caregiver said she still was not cognitively herself and that it's possible she had a mini stroke. Mother did have a stroke when she was 43, and some of her family members have had them as well.

I am feeling a lot of guilt and fear. I imagine the worst possible scenario, like "what if the cancer has spread to her brain?"

I haven't mentioned this to anyone today, except briefly in passing to my roommate. I mostly just carry on as if everything is okay, because falling apart doesn't help anything.

I was seeing a counselor until around this time last year. I don't have insurance, but there is a "safety net" program at the counseling center that is income-based. I plan to call tomorrow to see if I might qualify for it without my husband's income. I am sure she would take me back on as a client. This is getting to be too much to handle without professional support. If I am a strong woman, it is only because I have a Strong and Mighty God, and even He says I need to go back to counseling. He reminds me that I can and will burn out if I don't find an outlet for processing that involves face to face contact. I am isolating myself when I am not watching kids or working. That is one of my  for depression, and I need to address it.

Thanks WW.

Redeemed

[Radcliff]

Redeemed,

When we're healing from an abusive relationship, it's all about boundaries.  I don't know if I've mentioned this to you, but shortly after the restraining order I was having way too much contact with my wife over text, and it was really putting me through the wringer.  I was still working primarily to keep her feeling good, not me.  My healing was stalled.  I would encourage you to move the call frequency to what's best for you.  You could just flat out announce the boundary, or you could ease into it, missing a day here, a day there. 

I'm sorry, please remind me.  Did you say that your mom has lung cancer?  I think we've talked about that before.  I'm so sorry.  You mentioned that they just did a brain scan -- it likely would have caught a brain tumor large enough to cause symptoms.

I'm glad to hear that you have a counseling option.  Heck yes, get in there!  You might ask if specific trauma therapy such as EMDR is available.  My therapist is doing it on me, and it's helping.  Even if not, just the face-to-face support is priceless.  You said you are in addiction recovery.  Do you attend any regular 12 step meetings?  My therapist got me started on Al-Anon meetings as a way to get additional free face-to-face support, since I needed more than just the meetings with her.

WW

[I Am Redeemed]

WW,

We did speak about my mother having cancer, over on the "Precious Time" thread. Mother has an aggressive form of small cell lung cancer. It did not show up on a chest x-ray; they had to do a biopsy which caused a collapsed lung and made my sisters really mad because they already had said that her body could not withstand chemo so they would not be treating the cancer anyway. I don't know if small cell cancer would show up on a brain scan or not. Maybe it would. My mind just likes to torture me with unpleasant thoughts. It is probably more likely that she did have a mini-stroke, since she has had a stroke before and brain aneurysms and strokes are common on her side of the family.

I do not currently attend any 12 step meetings. If I go to any, it should be AA or NA, since I am a recovering addict, and it is something I have been stressed out over because that's one more thing I feel pressure to add to an already full schedule. Four of my weekdays are spent watching kids for one shift and then working the other. Restaurant hours are not your normal 9 to 5, so our shifts usually begin at 11 and end around 3 or a little later, then second shift starts at either 3,4, or 5 and usually ends around 10 pm, except Fri and Sat nights which could be as late as 11pm. I am off weekend nights (usually) but I have been picking up shifts lately on either Sat or Sun night because I need the money and we are short staffed at work. Thursday nights I visit my kids and that is the only day off I have. I don't know how to work in counseling and twelve step meetings. Counseling would be more flexible. 12 step meetings would be harder, yet I feel that I should be going- I just don't know when. I feel like I need to get up earlier in the morning just to get more stuff done. I currently have laundry and cleaning and errands to do, so likely my day off today will be spent doing that.

I can't imagine trying to attend AA and al-anon at the same time. I haven't even been going to church. Feel guilt over that too. I work Sundays at 11 am, and without my own car I haven't been able to attend a church early enough to get out in time for work. My roommate has to be at work at 10 on Sundays, so I can't take her car. This all adds to my frustration. I feel stuck in limbo in a lot of ways.

I probably do need to limit the contact I have with him. Especially when I work all day on a Sat or Sun and then the next day I answer the phone and he says "What's the matter, your boyfriend wouldn't let you answer the phone yesterday?" I just want to reach through the phone and smack him.

I have gotten so used to trying to make others comfortable instead of me. I also feel like he wants more contact because he is operating as if the r/s is still intact, when it really isn't. I said I wasn't filing for divorce. I didn't say we were going to be together. I also told him I can't afford all these calls. His idea of me limiting contact is only having one call a day. He would call back two and three times if I let him.

Thanks for listening, WW. It helps to know how someone else has gone about a similar situation. Sometimes I think I should have just kept NC. It was easier in a lot of ways.

Blessings and Peace,

Redeemed

[I Am Redeemed]

I'm glad to hear that you have a counseling option.  Heck yes, get in there!  You might ask if specific trauma therapy such as EMDR is available.  My therapist is doing it on me, and it's helping. 

WW

Oh my gosh, I did EMDR when I did inpatient substance abuse/mental health treatment over seven years ago, during a Trauma Resolution class. My therapist is not trained in it, but I could see if it is available in our area somewhere. It really did help; I was amazed. I remember they said that even moving your eyes back and forth from one side of the pavement to another as you walk down a sidewalk can have a calming effect. I believe that may have been how the idea for the treatment came about, if I remember correctly.

Thanks WW 

Redeemed

[Radcliff]

Understood on the 12-step meetings.  Just hearing your schedule made me tired.  You are doing triage.

I probably do need to limit the contact I have with him. Especially when I work all day on a Sat or Sun and then the next day I answer the phone and he says "What's the matter, your boyfriend wouldn't let you answer the phone yesterday?" I just want to reach through the phone and smack him.

One thing to notice is how you feel in the time leading up to a call with him, and then how long it takes you to return to baseline after a call with him.  Between abuse, work, and childcare, it's easy to stuff how we're feeling.  I really got some insight when I started paying attention to how my body physically felt before, during, and after communications with my wife.

I have gotten so used to trying to make others comfortable instead of me... .His idea of me limiting contact is only having one call a day. He would call back two and three times if I let him.

It kind of bends one's mind, this limit setting thing, doesn't it!  You're the decider here.

Sometimes I think I should have just kept NC. It was easier in a lot of ways.

You have the NC option open to you.  You can slide things from 0-30 calls a month if you like.  I think you said that 2-3 was best for you now.  At least get there.  But you may find your feelings about what's best changing.  Just make sure your needs and feelings are driving, not fear, obligation, and guilt.  His behaviors landed him in a place that makes it difficult for him to keep up with what is going on with the kids.  The thing those kids need most is their mom looking out for herself and in tip-top shape.

WW

[Harley Quinn]

Hi Redeemed,

I'm glad that WW has brought up this good suggestion:

One thing to notice is how you feel in the time leading up to a call with him, and then how long it takes you to return to baseline after a call with him.  Between abuse, work, and childcare, it's easy to stuff how we're feeling.  I really got some insight when I started paying attention to how my body physically felt before, during, and after communications with my wife.

I've been meaning to ask you what YOU get out of these calls?

Love and light x

[I Am Redeemed]

WW,

I know I do have the NC option if it gets to be too much. The last few conversations we have had have not been stressful, and he has not attempted to call back in the same day. I have decided that I will not allow myself to answer out of obligation if I am already stressed or busy and not in a calm place mentally.

Today I was able to tell him about Mother, and how she has been put on a pureed diet because she is not feeding herself. She was sleeping when my sister went by today, and she did wake up but did not recognize my sister and the kids and then went back to sleep. Normally if she is napping when my sister goes by, she will get up and talk to her. I did not get to go by today, but I plan to go Saturday to see if she recognizes me and S2 and if there have been any changes. UBPDh expressed sadness at the news about mom, and when I told him that I have a lot of guilt regarding my mother because I have not been there for her like I should, he told me that I can't change the past and her current situation is not my fault. He actually listened to how I felt. He actually made some statements that made sense, that would be along the lines of what I would say to someone in the same situation. That was a positive conversation. I haven't really spoken to anyone else about Mother, except to post here briefly about it.

HQ,
I think what I get out of these conversations is probably significantly less than he gets. I guess I get my curiosity satisfied about his mental state, for one, and I do like sharing info about the kids with him. He is still always the first person I think of to tell when one of them does something cute or funny or learns something new. I guess it will always be that way. However, I know that I know that I know that I am only maintaining the level of contact we have now because I feel that he needs it. I don't necessarily needit. Not to say that I want total NC again, but if it the situation were reversed, and I could call him but he could not call me, then I would be calling a lot less.

I just don't want to get wrapped up in thinking about his issues more than my own again. I don't want to get sucked into caretaking behavior again. Sometimes I feel pretty strong and sometimes I feel pretty weak.
I have tried to use his mother as a mediator between us but that just stressed her out. She has a harder time talking to him than I do, sometimes. She experienced some severe abuse from his father during their seven year marriage, and I know it must be opening some old wounds to see her son repeating his father's damaging behavior. I don't know what I would feel or do if one of my sons grew up and acted like uBPDh. It would be a nightmare.

I guess the question is: Is it okay to continue contact that isn't necessarily beneficial to me if it isn't detrimental either? I understand that conversations that stress me out or leave me emotionally drained are not something I should continue to endure out of obligation or guilt. But if the conversations themselves do not stress me, then the only remaining issue is the cost. I should not let myself feel obligated to pay for a conversation that is not beneficial to me. The limits on contact really at this point have more financial than emotional motivation for me. If it was free, I wouldn't care to talk for fifteen minutes every day about whatever Bible verse he is reading, or tell him that the kids were on the news for like, five seconds last night. But it's not free, and I can't afford to spend a lot on calls just so he feels better. A solution to this might be to tell him that I am limiting calls to this day, this day, and that day, at this time, and all other communication should be in the form of letters. I am not giving him my address, but I can have him mail them to his mother.

I'm a better letter writer anyway. I have always preferred the written over the spoken word.

Thanks for helping me sort through this y'all. Sometimes I already know the answer but I need someone else to guide me to the discovery of the knowledge, if that makes any sense.

Blessings and peace,

Redeemed

[Radcliff]

I guess the question is: Is it okay to continue contact that isn't necessarily beneficial to me if it isn't detrimental either? I understand that conversations that stress me out or leave me emotionally drained are not something I should continue to endure out of obligation or guilt. But if the conversations themselves do not stress me, then the only remaining issue is the cost.

Speaking solely for myself, I found that I was underestimating the emotional cost to me of talking to my wife.  I was so used to an imbalance of needs, and denying my own discomfort about things, that it took months to get a better handle on understanding my own discomfort.

Your comment makes me think of a question.  This is peer counseling, and we're talking as equals -- I only know enough to ask the question; can't tell you what's right for your situation.  If we are giving something to someone that is solely for them, in a relationship with a history of abuse and where the giving has gone predominantly in one direction is it really non-detrimental for us to continue that pattern?  Are we missing an opportunity to value ourselves, and learn how to interact in a more balanced fashion?  OK, questions done -- I'm not advancing a position here, just thinking this through with all of us in mind to prompt discussion.

One other thought on costs of talking to him.  Might you be setting expectations with him about the status of the relationship?  I know you're not making any promises, but as it turns out I was just talking with another member about who has the opposite intent, wooing a husband who's filed for divorce, about the power of neutral to slightly warm interactions.  Speaking as a guy trying to maintain his distance from his wife, hearing the mother of your children talking in neutral to slightly warm tones about the activities of the children is almost intoxicating -- all of the memories of good, drama-free times come back.  I feel a pull any time my wife is talking about these things.  Sorry, I'm getting wordy, basically to him your interactions may feel way more positive than you intend.

A solution to this might be to tell him that I am limiting calls to this day, this day, and that day, at this time, and all other communication should be in the form of letters. I am not giving him my address, but I can have him mail them to his mother.

I'm a better letter writer anyway. I have always preferred the written over the spoken word.

A call schedule that is based on what you want, that sounds like a great idea!   

The letter writing one is very interesting.  Old school   Nice and slow.  Time for contemplation.  No immediate answers required, easier to keep emotional distance with less effort.  Good idea!

Last thought -- expect your thoughts and feelings to evolve on this topic over time, and give yourself license to adjust things to work better for you as they do.

WW

[Cat Familiar]

I guess the question is: Is it okay to continue contact that isn't necessarily beneficial to me if it isn't detrimental either? I understand that conversations that stress me out or leave me emotionally drained are not something I should continue to endure out of obligation or guilt. But if the conversations themselves do not stress me, then the only remaining issue is the cost. I should not let myself feel obligated to pay for a conversation that is not beneficial to me. The limits on contact really at this point have more financial than emotional motivation for me. If it was free, I wouldn't care to talk for fifteen minutes every day about whatever Bible verse he is reading, or tell him that the kids were on the news for like, five seconds last night. But it's not free, and I can't afford to spend a lot on calls just so he feels better. A solution to this might be to tell him that I am limiting calls to this day, this day, and that day, at this time, and all other communication should be in the form of letters. I am not giving him my address, but I can have him mail them to his mother.

Hi Redeemed,
Wentworth asked me to add my two cents to the conversation because I've lived through similar situations with my ex-husband.

Absolutely you don't owe him contact at his whim. For one, you're so stretched for time as it is. Also, speaking with him sounds mentally and emotionally exhausting. You need that time for your son and to recharge your own batteries.

Yes, you can tell him to write to you, care of his mother. I think you've come up with an excellent solution. Also perhaps have a once a week chat with a specified time limit. That way you don't have to listen to him babbling nonsense and wasting your time. Make him put his thoughts and feelings into words. That will also be helpful to him. It's easy to babble nonsense. It's likely more difficult to write nonsense, especially since it's a written record that you can save and use in future custody hearings.

You've got way too much on your plate to make him a priority in your life anymore. He's caused far too much distress in your life and the lives of your children. Period.

I think you're doing a wonderful job dealing with so many uncertainties at once. Good work!

Cat

[I Am Redeemed]

Oh thank you Cat!

You just put words to underlying feelings I had that I haven't articulated! My "Guilt" radar was picking them up and having a field day with them and I didn't even really have it put together yet as a streamlined thought in my mind.

I am still operating out of FOG even when I don't think I am... .but deep down, I know I am.

Thank you so much.

Blessings and peace,

Redeemed

[Mustbeabetterway]

Hi Redeemed,

I have been following this post, and cheering you on.  I will echo Cat as agree that you are doing a great job. 

Thinking of speaking with my husband gives me anxiety, too.  So that is such a big red flag. 

The letter writing is a great idea.  Keep up the good work,  Mustbe

[I Am Redeemed]

Thanks, mustbe. How are you doing thesr days?

Blessings and peace,

Redeemed

[Mustbeabetterway]

You are welcome.  You should feel good about the progress you are making.  Well, truthfully, it is a difficult and slow process of detaching on my end. 

Take care of yourself.  Don’t be too hard on yourself because you don’t need to be discouraged. Be of good courage! 

Mustbe

[Cat Familiar]

Take care of yourself.  Don’t be too hard on yourself because you don’t need to be discouraged. Be of good courage! 

I think, from lots of personal experience, that there is a definite imbalance in these relationships where one person has a personality disorder and the other is codependent or a caretaker. The one with a PD takes too little responsibility for him or herself and the caretaker takes an inordinate amount of responsibility for both parties.

When I discovered how imbalanced my relationships were, I felt really guilty when I "quit caring" as much. It's not that I quit loving my partner, or my mother, but rather that I saw them as a functional adult unit--not a child that I needed to "guide" to more healthy behavior. I still struggle with that at times.

The upside of treating them as an equal, which is something I wasn't doing when I tried to "fix" them, solve their problems, take care of their emotions, prevent them from getting upset---the upside is that if I didn't do these things, they might actually learn to do it for themselves. "Might" being the operative word.

But I can't fight all the fires, rescue all the kittens stuck in trees, treat all the wounded, particularly if my efforts trigger anger rather than appreciation. Nowadays I take a more disengaged stance. I'm ready and eager to help when asked, otherwise it's not my problem.

If I respect others enough to let them fail, suffer consequences, figure out their own problems, the irony is that they respect me more. I'm no longer "mothering" them or smothering them with my "good intentions".

At this point in my life, I no longer suffer fools. I'm kind and helpful to those who want my help and who are able to reciprocate--and I don't necessarily mean that I expect them to help me, but rather I help those who are willing to help others when they can. People who are black holes of need can go elsewhere.

[I Am Redeemed]

I think, from lots of personal experience, that there is a definite imbalance in these relationships where one person has a personality disorder and the other is codependent or a caretaker. The one with a PD takes too little responsibility for him or herself and the caretaker takes an inordinate amount of responsibility for both parties.

The upside of treating them as an equal, which is something I wasn't doing when I tried to "fix" them, solve their problems, take care of their emotions, prevent them from getting upset---the upside is that if I didn't do these things, they might actually learn to do it for themselves. "Might" being the operative word. 

You are so right, Cat. I definitely felt (and still feel, though we are separated) the imbalance in my r/s. I felt kind of like I would feel if I were responsible for someone with a disability such as mental retardation or dementia, like it was up to me to steer the plane or it was going to crash and burn. Except uBPDh kept trying to take the controls and inevitably send the plane into a nose dive, and that was the epitome of our r/s: one person who wanted to fly the plane but was headed straight for disaster and the other person who didn't necessarily want to fly it but felt she was the only person sane enough to keep us from sudden death, and the plane never flew straight as a result.

I have become committed to learning how to distinguish between loving someone and helping them when they genuinely need help and loving someone and letting them take responsibility for their own mistakes and shortcomings. I have blurred the lines for so long that I don't really know how to clarify these situations sometimes. UBPDh messed with my head so badly that I didn't know if my instinctive feelings of "but that's YOUR responsibility" were actually selfishness, or if I was right to trust my internal feelings and therefore was being overloaded with stuff that wasn't mine to handle.

UBPDh would frequently try to make me feel selfish or uncaring because I did not "help" him. Most of his ideas of "helping" were actually me doing something for him that he should have been doing for himself, like getting himself up for work on time in the morning. He was constantly needing me to "help him" do this or that, which basically meant I was expected to do everything unless he felt "in the mood" to do something like clean up or cook or actually make his own darn appointments. He treated me like a secretary, personal assistant, cook, maid, nanny, massage therapist, and alarm clock. And always criticized me for not doing all of these things perfectly. And basically told me that any woman who "loved her husband" would do all these things without question and without being asked. He called me selfish frequently and loved to tell me I didn't show "care and concern" for him. Once he raged at me because he had a lot of homework to do for his online class and he decided to take a nap instead, and when he woke up it was about an hour and a half before the time limit on when he could turn in his work- and it was my fault because I "knew he had homework he had to do, and I let him sleep."

Even when I realized he was being childish and immature and not taking responsibility, I still questioned whether or not I was right to feel resentment for having expectations placed on me to do some of the things he wanted me to do for him. I have never been in a healthy r/s before, and I found myself questioning whether I knew what "normal" spouses would be expected to do for one another or help each other with, and what was just a total imbalance of one person expecting the other to do everything. It seemed like all he wanted to do was get dressed, go to work and come home. All other adult responsibilities seemed to fall to me for one reason or another, and he always came up with some reason why they should fall on me and not him. It was (and still is) mentally exhausting to try to sort through it all.

Some things I absolutely knew should not be mine to bear alone, though, and it did make me resentful. I knew that I should not have to be the one to try to regulate the spending. It should be a collective effort- budget out what we need for the bills, and DON'T SPEND THAT. Seems straightforward enough. But no. I was the only one who understood that you can't write a check for the light bill and then withdraw the cash from the bank over the weekend. The check will bounce. The lights will get cut off. But that's what he did- and lied about it, until the truth came out and the check bounced and we were sitting in the dark.

So, in those situations, I felt like I had to try to steer the plane- because my child and I were affected if I didn't. And I resented it, big time.

I just got on amazon and ordered the Cloud and Townsend "Boundaries" book, the "Coercive Control" book by Stark, the "Stop Walking On Eggshells" book and the "I Hate You, Don't Leave Me" book. I think maybe that will keep me busy for a while and help me with some of these questions I have.

I hope I can get to the point where I can stop feeling the need to rush in and rescue all the kittens and put out all the fires. It's exhausting.

Blessings and peace,

Redeemed

[Radcliff]

I just got on amazon and ordered the Cloud and Townsend "Boundaries" book, the "Coercive Control" book by Stark, the "Stop Walking On Eggshells" book and the "I Hate You, Don't Leave Me" book. I think maybe that will keep me busy for a while and help me with some of these questions I have.

Redeemed, you are determined!  Wow, that's some reading list.  I'm just finishing up the last chapter of Stark.  I'm very glad I read it.  One of the things that I appreciated the most about it is that he describes women as intentional actors, working hard to navigate difficult situations and to maintain as much control over their destinies as possible.  There is so much good stuff in there.  But it is a slog.  Especially in the first half of the book, the language is very academic.  The writing was a little convoluted and I had to read some sentences several times!  But it is well worth it.  For me, it worked to read a few pages a day and steadily work through it.

The other books are great, of course.

When you were saying in your post above that you're not sure what a normal marriage should look like, I wanted to say, "Welcome to the club!"  The best book that I've read that I felt gave me some insight into what a good marriage might be is, "The Seven Principles for Making Marriage Work," By John Gottman and Nan Silver.  It was like a light bulb clicked on for me.  I was like, "Wow, so that's what it's supposed to be like!"  He figured all of the stuff out by studying many successfully married couples, videotaping them argue and work together in an apartment he rigged as a lab.

Since you're dealing with DV, the Lundy Bancroft books (there are many, see which ones feel most relevant) are good to read.  His classic is "Why Does He Do That?"  I might read that one before Stark, since it's much quicker going.

And, in case you get bored, here are a few more (you probably read this in Dig's thread already):

Hi Dig,

I was talking to my DV advocate on another matter, and asked if she knew of any books that covered coercive control but were more likely to offer practical coping tips than Erik Stark's more academic book.  She recommended:

"Invisible Chains:  Overcoming Coercive Control in Your Intimate Relationship," by Lisa Aronson Fontes

She also recommended:

"Healing from Invisible Abuse," by Shannon Thomas

She also mentioned three Lundy Bancroft books with which you may already be familiar:  "Why Does He Do That?", "The Batterer As Parent," and "When Dad Hits Mom."

One thing to think about is that coercive control exists on a continuum.  Some guys do very little.  Their violence is "just" "assaultive".  They don't care to, or are not organized enough to try to control all the daily elements of a woman's life.  The level of control also varies from couple to couple.  I found it helpful to read the books to understand where my situation fit on that scale.  I saw many things that applied to my situation, and a bunch that didn't. 

WW

[I Am Redeemed]

Thanks Ww! I was looking for where you posted that on dig's thread yesterday but I couldn't remember where it was. I plan to get those too. I've always been a bookworm .

Blessings,

Redeemed

[Cat Familiar]

I felt kind of like I would feel if I were responsible for someone with a disability such as mental retardation or dementia, like it was up to me to steer the plane or it was going to crash and burn. Except uBPDh kept trying to take the controls and inevitably send the plane into a nose dive, and that was the epitome of our r/s: one person who wanted to fly the plane but was headed straight for disaster and the other person who didn't necessarily want to fly it but felt she was the only person sane enough to keep us from sudden death, and the plane never flew straight as a result.

Redeemed, this is an excellent metaphor! I felt the same way in my first marriage. My ex and I shared a business. Much of his behavior seemed like he was trying to sabotage our livelihood and I'd wrest the controls from him so the plane wouldn't crash.

My first husband was BPD on steroids, while my current husband is BPD-lite. Even so, I used to try to intervene in his alcohol abuse, much to his dismay. I've since realized that alcohol was one of the few coping mechanisms he's used to deal with the internal chaos in his head. But now, unfortunately it's caused high blood pressure, which is leading to kidney problems. So he's voluntarily cut back somewhat.

I certainly didn't have the best approach when I tried to make him aware of health consequences years ago, but at the time I didn't realize that he has BPD. And even had I known that, I was still in the dark about best communication strategies then. It's one of those sad "I told you so" moments that I will never say to his face. But I could not refrain from trying to make him aware of what he was doing at the time, though it totally backfired on me.

I have become committed to learning how to distinguish between loving someone and helping them when they genuinely need help and loving someone and letting them take responsibility for their own mistakes and shortcomings. I have blurred the lines for so long that I don't really know how to clarify these situations sometimes. UBPDh messed with my head so badly that I didn't know if my instinctive feelings of "but that's YOUR responsibility" were actually selfishness, or if I was right to trust my internal feelings and therefore was being overloaded with stuff that wasn't mine to handle.

I know exactly what you're saying and it's a very difficult line to distinguish. I too have been tarred with the "selfish" label and it really hurt me in the past. Now, if he were to say that, I'd agree. So what? Most people care about themselves; being self-interested is healthy, not pathological.

UBPDh would frequently try to make me feel selfish or uncaring because I did not "help" him. Most of his ideas of "helping" were actually me doing something for him that he should have been doing for himself, like getting himself up for work on time in the morning. He was constantly needing me to "help him" do this or that, which basically meant I was expected to do everything unless he felt "in the mood" to do something like clean up or cook or actually make his own darn appointments. He treated me like a secretary, personal assistant, cook, maid, nanny, massage therapist, and alarm clock. And always criticized me for not doing all of these things perfectly. And basically told me that any woman who "loved her husband" would do all these things without question and without being asked. He called me selfish frequently and loved to tell me I didn't show "care and concern" for him. Once he raged at me because he had a lot of homework to do for his online class and he decided to take a nap instead, and when he woke up it was about an hour and a half before the time limit on when he could turn in his work- and it was my fault because I "knew he had homework he had to do, and I let him sleep."

How incredibly manipulative and selfish.

Even when I realized he was being childish and immature and not taking responsibility, I still questioned whether or not I was right to feel resentment for having expectations placed on me to do some of the things he wanted me to do for him. I have never been in a healthy r/s before, and I found myself questioning whether I knew what "normal" spouses would be expected to do for one another or help each other with, and what was just a total imbalance of one person expecting the other to do everything. It seemed like all he wanted to do was get dressed, go to work and come home. All other adult responsibilities seemed to fall to me for one reason or another, and he always came up with some reason why they should fall on me and not him. It was (and still is) mentally exhausting to try to sort through it all.

Over time, these relationships tend to undermine our self-esteem. We wonder if we are truly being "selfish" or if we really should be expected to shoulder a far heavier burden of responsibility.

I, too, have no personal experience of a healthy relationship, starting with my family of origin.

Some things I absolutely knew should not be mine to bear alone, though, and it did make me resentful. I knew that I should not have to be the one to try to regulate the spending. It should be a collective effort- budget out what we need for the bills, and DON'T SPEND THAT. Seems straightforward enough. But no. I was the only one who understood that you can't write a check for the light bill and then withdraw the cash from the bank over the weekend. The check will bounce. The lights will get cut off. But that's what he did- and lied about it, until the truth came out and the check bounced and we were sitting in the dark.

Yep, you had to steer the plane. It's no fun being the "adult" in these relationships at times.

[Radcliff]

Thanks Ww! I was looking for where you posted that on dig's thread yesterday but I couldn't remember where it was. I plan to get those too. I've always been a bookworm .

You are welcome!  I'm still a little surprised at having to become so well read on these topics.  We've managed to get ourselves into some tight spots, but hopefully can use our reading and writing superpowers to get to better places!  Probably more useful than stretchable arms.  Flying and x-ray vision would be nice, though

WW

[I Am Redeemed]

Hi everybody,

I am really struggling today. Frustration seems to be my main emotion these days, and it's settling into the danger signs of depression.

My mother was sent to the ER from the nursing home last week. They did not see any signs of bleeding on the brain. However, she is still not talking very much and is not eating solids. She complains that water tastes bitter. The physical therapist gave us the option of running a test to see if she is silently aspirating. It involves sticking a tube down her throat and sounds very uncomfortable. My sisters are worried that the test might wear her out and give her more reason to not drink. She may be put on the list to get a feeding tube. I still think she had a stroke. She had one in her early forties following a suicide attempt. The ER doctors saw the signs of the gunshot wound from forty years ago when they looked to see if she had bleeding on the brain. I just wonder if they would be able to tell if she had a minor stroke since there is already damage to her brain from the suicide attempt and stroke forty years ago. I'm not a doctor, but still... .there has to be some reason for this sudden change in her. The other day she named ten objects placed on the table when asked to do so. She circled one word in her word search. The next day she wouldn't do any of that, but just said "I'm tired."

This makes me incredibly sad. I got the news about the feeding tube possibility yesterday while I was at work. I almost started crying but I pulled it together and worked my shift as if nothing was wrong.

I feel like I have gotten used to "covering up" what is really wrong. It became such a way of life for me when living with uBPDh. The drama, the paranoia, the delusional thinking and beliefs and how they affected simple, everyday activities, the abuse, the raging, the guilting and gaslighting... .I kept it all under wraps to present the image of "normality." I don't know if I ever knew anything else. My FOO was not exactly "normal" either. My father and mother were in their forties when I was born. My older siblings were in their twenties. My dad's kids, a daughter and a son, did not have a good r/s with him. I saw my sister maybe less than ten times in my life. When my dad turned 76, my sister reached out to him and they reconnected. She sent him a big box of birthday cards for all the years she did not speak to him. They began to visit at least once a year, and I did speak to her on the phone a couple of times. Turns out she had cancer, and she died about five years after she and my father reconnected.

I have never met my brother. I tried to call the only number I found for him in my dad's papers after his death. I left a message explaining who I was, and that our father had passed. I never got a response.

My mom's kids are the sisters I had the most contact with growing up. One was married (still is) and now lives across the country. The other stepped in to raise me when my mother attempted suicide and became permanently disabled. This sister had constant conflict with my father, her stepfather, and our home was a constant tense environment where yelling and verbal abuse was present. I tried to stay quiet and out of the direct line of fire. I felt that I was unimportant and my voice did not matter. All I knew from an early age was dysfunction.

Incidentally, this is the same sister that now has guardianship of my five older children. I am not saying that they are not being treated with love, or that they are abused, but I do know my sister has unresolved issues and a very negative outlook on life. I feel that my children are being exposed to a lot of the same negativity and unresolved anger that I was as a child.

Anyway, sorry for the reflective and rambling post. I am just tired and I am starting to see the warning signs of depression, so I have decided that it might be a good idea to consider going back on my antidepressant medication. It's been over a year since I stopped taking them. I think I have functioned pretty well without them, all things considered, but I don't want to "white-knuckle" this if I can have the added support of the medication. It does make it easier to apply techniques I learned in therapy regarding thought stopping, etc.

Thanks for reading everyone.

Blessings and peace,

Redeemed

[Cat Familiar]

Redeemed,
First of all      .

I'm glad you've shared your story. You've been incredibly strong through some very trying circumstances. I'm very sorry about your mother's current condition.    

Despite all that you're dealing with, you sound very grounded. You've had a history of bearing difficulties that few of us could have coped with. You are indomitable!

Hearing about your background, it's so understandable that you got together with a pwBPD. Same here. We have the emotional strength to put up with what would send others fleeing for the exits. However, it comes at a cost, as you well know, and now is the time to take care of your own needs and it sounds like you know how to do that very well.

You are currently in the midst of very trying circumstances. You've survived and thrived in these sorts of circumstances before. One step at a time. One day at a time. It helps to break down the whole picture into little pieces that you can deal with, one piece at a time. You know all this. You've done it before. You've got this.      

[Insom]

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