I feel that to realise she is ill and not inform anyone is quite selfish of me

[Dargumin]

So I've had a bit of a breakthrough. Hopefully this clarity will last.  I know she hates me, I know the hate is caused by the disorder, not her.  I've let go of my ego and accepted that I am just the latest in a fairly long line.   We were friends 9 years (not close but still more than acquaintances) before going out 2 months and I'm certain I'm the only ex and only friend to realise her actions are all the hallmarks of high functioning BPD.  As such I've struggled with the idea of taking this knowledge and only using it to sooth my self.  I feel that to realise she is ill and not inform anyone else is quite selfish of me, she deserves to have friends willing to help her. Yes I could be perceived as  a bitter ex, but that's their choice to make, I no longer care how I'm perceived, I only care that I do the right thing.   Here's the letter I would send her friends, if anyone can explain why it's still a bad idea pleas let me know.  Sorry it's huge, much respect if you read it all.  

Hi,

Please forgive the essay below, I'm not planning on really having much further contact so I thought I'd try and get as much down as possible in one go.  
So I'm writing this because I know you're a close and trusted friend of XXXXX. Im sending this just to 3 or 4 of her best mates, it's not with the intention of bad mouthing her, but to make you better placed to help her.  I've been thinking of writing to you for quite a while but I was scared that I'd come across as a bitter ex, I'm pretty sure XXXXX has not painted a positive picture of me since our split last year.   After taking time to heal, I no longer care how I'm perceived, I just want to do the right thing, and if it falls on deaf ears then at least I'll know I did all I could.  

We split almost a year ago, the day before my birthday night out where she was meant to meet my friends & family.  It was totally heart-breaking & humiliating for me and took me a long time to get over.  She spoke to me like no-one has ever spoken to me before, and not in a good way.  The more I tried to reconcile with her over the next few months, the more she fought back, to the point that I believe she truly hates me now. Certainly I'm blocked from all forms of contact.  It was very disorientating for me as overall I thought we were having a brilliant time before it all went wrong, I saw her as both a girlfriend and a friend.    

Anyway, almost a year down the line since we split I'm glad to say I DO NOT hate her.  In fact I'm actually concerned for her. I believe she should NOT be held responsible for her actions to me or her previous/subsequent boyfriends.   We were clubbing mates for nine years before we went out for two very intense months. Over those nine years I must have visited her at 4 or 5 of her many flats and had many a great night in her company.  That’s why I know she's a good person on the whole , and being  a good person is why she's got great friends like you.

After we split I did some research regarding some of the erratic behaviour I encountered with her in our brief time as a couple. We would be having the best time and then she would get so angry and confrontational out of nowhere, it's like nothing else I've encountered.  I met up with her a couple of times after we split, and honestly it was like meeting a totally different person that I really didn't recognise.

The research I did basically suggest that she has the hallmarks of a personality disorder. I'm not a doctor, so I'm just saying what I strongly suspect here . The disorder involves Emotional Dysregulation (ie. you can't keep a lid on your emotions, they own you, Anger is most common) and fear of abandonment which often leads to a ("I think you might leave me, so I'm going to leave you first" attitude).  It is triggered by intimate relationships and stems from trauma in childhood, perhaps bullying or perhaps all the moving from place to place she did as a kid. I've heard this disorder described as "like not having any emotional skin" because everything hurts a lot more than it should, and then the reactions are stronger as a result. Once the relationship ends, somehow the disorder allows them to heal and move on quickly, leaving the other person picking up the pieces.

 When she is single she should be fine but when she is in a relationship this is where the problems start, maybe not in the early weeks/months but soon after.  It's probably just the person she is in a relationship that will see this side of her, although strong emotions are probably eating away at her all the time under the surface.  When she's angry, there's real pain in her eyes and I realise now that this must be awful for her to live with this.  

Worse still I feel she will never be able to maintain a relationship for more than a year or two before completing the cycle of Idealisation, Devaluation & Discard. It doesn't matter who she's going out with, the cycle will play out like this every time unless treated.  And the worst bit about all this? Denial of there being any problem is unfortunately also a hallmark of this disorder, everyone else gets blamed for any relationship problems.  This makes it hard for those that need treatment to ever get it. But there is treatment, it's called DBT, Dialectical Behaviour Therapy, it would teach XXXXX to manage their emotions and help prevent the IDD cycle.

XXXXX deserves happiness just like the rest of us, I really don't want the rest of her life to play out like the last 13 years+ have relationship-wise.  She doesn't deserve that and neither do the people that get in to relationships with her.

I've spoken to her ex's YYYYY & ZZZZZ.  They have both suffered her aggressive rages which led to the breakdown of both their relationships with her and agree that "something is not right". If you ever met either of them you will know that they are both sound people.  

I've no idea what she's told you about me.  It's possible she's told a few fibs to justify her actions towards me.  I can say for sure that I didn't handle things perfectly, for example  I went on the same flight as her to Amsterdam as we had booked it whilst together. It was so awkward, I was desperate to reconcile but she was cold as ice and I ended up making a bit of a fool of myself as a result. I don't hold XXXXX responsible if she has told fibs or exaggerated things about me. The disorder requires that you alter the facts or mis-perceive events to justify the emotions you feel.  It's probable that she actually believes her version of events is real.  

I know she's got a top job and on the surface she seems a happy fun person, so I can understand if the above doesn't make sense to you, but many people with personality disorders are "High Functioning", they hold down careers and appear normal on the surface. Behind closed doors it's a different story.  Sadly it makes High Functioning individuals less likely to seek treatment.

 If you think I'm talking rubbish or feel I have anything but the best intentions here then fair enough, but telling her about this message could stop her from ever being susceptible to therapy, so please don't.  I'd prefer you send me lots of abuse than risk that.    

Perhaps the above does make sense and you can see where I'm coming from, in which case I hope you are willing to help her should the chance arise.
If you do believe that she may have a disorder please do not tell her.  All advice online says that they will dismiss this out of hand if you do and become harder to treat .Instead, when an appropriate opportunity arrives where she seems to be struggling or upset, perhaps suggest that she see a therapist, maybe offer to accompany her if you are able to. They are the only people who should diagnose her.  She might not listen to just one of her friends but she might if a few of you are all suggesting the same thing.  Let her know that it's okay not to be okay.
 
If you are interested to learn more about the disorder I'm referring to then Google "High Functioning Borderline Personality Disorder" (HF BPD).  It can be confusing as "low functioning" is associated with self-harming and suicide which I don't think we need to be worried about here thankfully.
 
The reason I'm writing this, is because XXXX was a friend to me for so long, and yes I admit it, I fell in love with her. I can't let what's happened between us stop me from trying to help her. If someone strongly suspected one of my friends had a disorder, I would want to know so I could be best placed to help, I trust you feel the same way.

I can't just turn my back knowing her future relationships are destined to rot whilst she experiences intense emotional pain.  I know she will probably never change her mind about me, but I've made peace with the fact the disorder is responsible for that, not XXXXX.  For nine of the last ten years XXXXX was good to me, and that's how I choose to remember her.

Thanks for reading this to the end. I'd be interested to know your thoughts, even if you disagree with me. I'm not looking to get further involved, I just wanted to get the ball rolling if possible.  I won't bother you again unless you reply, I do have more information about BPD if you are interested to learn more. I hope you realise how lucky you are to have XXXXX in your life, please do your best for her.

Best wishes,.  

Mod note: This topic was split from this thread: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=321858.0

[Harley Quinn]

Dargumin, I must say that this is incredibly well written for the purpose you intend.  I feel it is clear that you have no ill intent.  How do you imagine it will be received by the individuals you mean to send it to?  I'm wondering how you would feel if you were to hear nothing back from any of them?  Would this play on your mind?  What if they were to share with your ex and there is backlash from her about it?

Finally, one question I would urge you to ask yourself.  I had to ask this question of myself and get real with myself at one point.  I could be off base, but is there even the remotest possibility that you hope this will in some way cause her to reach out to you and rekindle the r/s, either in the short or long term?

Love and light x

[Dargumin]

Dargumin, I must say that this is incredibly well written for the purpose you intend.  I feel it is clear that you have no ill intent.  How do you imagine it will be received by the individuals you mean to send it to?  I'm wondering how you would feel if you were to hear nothing back from any of them?  Would this play on your mind?  What if they were to share with your ex and there is backlash from her about it?

Finally, one question I would urge you to ask yourself.  I had to ask this question of myself and get real with myself at one point.  I could be off base, but is there even the remotest possibility that you hope this will in some way cause her to reach out to you and rekindle the r/s, either in the short or long term?

Love and light x

I'm not sure how well it will be received.  I'm almost certain she will have pre-empted this move, maybe warned people I might get in touch and to ignore me / painted me as crazy. I want her to recover so she can stop abusing her future partners, so she can not feel pain and anguish during her relationships and maybe forge a long lasting one, and yes I'd love an apology for how she's treat me.   I couldn't go back in to an r/s as I want children and I will not have a person with PD as the mother of my children, recovering or not. My children deserve a mother capable of real unconditional love and she never will be.  What I do know is if I don't share this information there is ZERO chance of her friends being best placed to help her. If I do send it, maybe there's 5%.      

[Harley Quinn]

That sounds like a slim chance of success.  Is it possible that her friends will do the right thing by her without your input?  Is it also possible that she might take stock of her own life and perhaps that responsibility falls with none other than herself? 

If you sent this letter and never heard from her or her friends ever again, would it play on your mind wondering what happened as a result of sending the letter?  More so than it plays on your mind now about her wellbeing?  I ask because something my counsellor has been working with me on is considering protecting myself in my actions.  In other words, if I say or do something which can then cause me pain/worry/fear, is it the right thing to do?

On the other hand, if you feel able to send this and then let the outcome go and move on free of any further thoughts or feelings about this that could haunt you... .

Love and light x

[Dargumin]

That sounds like a slim chance of success.  Is it possible that her friends will do the right thing by her without your input?  Is it also possible that she might take stock of her own life and perhaps that responsibility falls with none other than herself? 

If you sent this letter and never heard from her or her friends ever again, would it play on your mind wondering what happened as a result of sending the letter?  More so than it plays on your mind now about her wellbeing?  I ask because something my counsellor has been working with me on is considering protecting myself in my actions.  In other words, if I say or do something which can then cause me pain/worry/fear, is it the right thing to do?

On the other hand, if you feel able to send this and then let the outcome go and move on free of any further thoughts or feelings about this that could haunt you... .

Love and light x

At the moment I feel I carry a great burden having worked out what's going on with nobody else knowing.  If they choose to ignore me /enable her, then at least I've tried. There's nothing else I can do beyond this and I accept that.  I've put so much time into researching BPD, it does feel wasteful for me to not share what I've learned with people that are much better placed to help than I. 

[Harley Quinn]

I feel I carry a great burden

I can relate to this from when I left my dBPDexbf.  The burden was that I knew what help he needed and what it could do for him, regards treatment and rehabilitation around domestic abuse.  Ultimately pursuing that treatment and making a commitment to that change has to come from him. 

I also felt a burden of knowledge about his violent behaviour, when it came to future partners he would have.  So I'll ask you what I was asked.  Does that burden really belong to you?  Or can you let it go and know that this is not your responsibility?  It was pointed out to me that these future partners have their own lives to live and will do it their way.  If they make mistakes, learn and make their own choices, how is it my problem to solve?  Fair questions, but I didn't want to hear them.  Dargumin, only when we are ready can we recognise the 'helping' tendencies the majority of us have here.  One of the effects of being a 'rescuer type' is that it also takes the focus away from ourselves and our own situation.  I know that was the case for me.   

I agree that having a ton of knowledge would be a shame to waste.  There are many members here who benefit from others' experiences and learning.  There are ways that this can be shared with others who are seeking and will appreciate that input. 

Please don't think that I'm attempting to talk you out of sending the letter.  It's important to me that you are clear on your motives and thinking through what impact it may have on yourself either way.  What do you feel inside when you think of sending it, and what do you feel when you think of letting this go?

Love and light x

[Dargumin]

I can relate to this from when I left my dBPDexbf.  The burden was that I knew what help he needed and what it could do for him, regards treatment and rehabilitation around domestic abuse.  Ultimately pursuing that treatment and making a commitment to that change has to come from him.  

I also felt a burden of knowledge about his violent behaviour, when it came to future partners he would have.  So I'll ask you what I was asked.  :)oes that burden really belong to you?  Or can you let it go and know that this is not your responsibility?  It was pointed out to me that these future partners have their own lives to live and will do it their way.  If they make mistakes, learn and make their own choices, how is it my problem to solve?  Fair questions, but I didn't want to hear them.  :)argumin, only when we are ready can we recognise the 'helping' tendencies the majority of us have here.  One of the effects of being a 'rescuer type' is that it also takes the focus away from ourselves and our own situation.  I know that was the case for me.    

I agree that having a ton of knowledge would be a shame to waste.  There are many members here who benefit from others' experiences and learning.  There are ways that this can be shared with others who are seeking and will appreciate that input.  

Please don't think that I'm attempting to talk you out of sending the letter.  It's important to me that you are clear on your motives and thinking through what impact it may have on yourself either way.  What do you feel inside when you think of sending it, and what do you feel when you think of letting this go?

Love and light x

The thing is if this information isn't shared by me, what use is it to me? IThe knowledge has done me more harm than good.  She's not diagnosed so I don't have the comfort of knowing it was definitely BPD.  If I had never found out about BPD I could have just thought "evil psycho bitch" at the end of the relationship and revelled in pure hatred of her.  Hating her would be much easier for my brain to handle than what I have now - i.e. excuses for her behaviour and feeling how life is so unfair that the only girl I ever really loved is inflicted with this disorder.  Its much worse to have have someone hate you when you don't hate them. It's the worst.   Knowledge of BPD has robbed me of my hate for her and I really wish I'd never heard of it, but I have.

[once removed]

The thing is if this information isn't shared by me, what use is it to me?

its of use to you in doing the postmortem of the relationship. its of use to you in helping others here who are going through a similar experience. BPD became a gateway for me to learn a lot more about psychology and human nature in general, which took me a lot further than learning about the disorder itself. so its of use to you in that regard as well.

it sounds like youre struggling with "shoulds" - the feeling that you "should" hate her, but that you cant because you think she has a disorder. i would suggest you can work through this, with or without a label.

[Speck]

Hello, Dargumin!

I read the letter you shared with us that you have yet to send to your ex's friends. It is quite articulate and earnest, and I can see how badly you wish to find your ex some help... .which is beyond the pale of noble considering how much anguish you have suffered. You are a good person.

I can't help but find this topic worthy of its own thread because it's such a unique struggle, and I think that it may be more visible as a stand-alone thread so that others may discover it, too, and contribute their ideas to your particular dilemma. In short, I think that you would greatly benefit from lots of feedback with varying perspectives before sending a letter such as this.

Just a little nudge... .this is a brilliant topic.

What do you say?


-Speck

[Dargumin]

Hello, Dargumin!

I read the letter you shared with us that you have yet to send to your ex's friends. It is quite articulate and earnest, and I can see how badly you wish to find your ex some help... .which is beyond the pale of noble considering how much anguish you have suffered. You are a good person.

I can't help but find this topic worthy of its own thread because it's such a unique struggle, and I think that it may be more visible as a stand-alone thread so that others may discover it, too, and contribute their ideas to your particular dilemma. In short, I think that you would greatly benefit from lots of feedback with varying perspectives before sending a letter such as this.

Just a little nudge... .this is a brilliant topic.

What do you say?


-Speck

Hi, yes sure by all means.  My letter doesnt really contain any "evidence" of her behaviour to me.  I have reems of whatsapp messages both illustrating how great she could be, and how quickly she could turn. How she'd talk to me like I was dog dirt. I don't wish to share this with her friends to badmouth her but rather to maybe cast her in a different light and take me seriously.  Would it make sense to include a couple of examples if I went ahead with it?

[steelwork]

it sounds like youre struggling with "shoulds" - the feeling that you "should" hate her, but that you cant because you think she has a disorder. i would suggest you can work through this, with or without a label.

I agree with once removed about this.

One thing that's struck me since first finding this site is that I (and I think many of us) began with this presumption that there was something rare about a person having PD traits (NPD, BPD, whatever). There was this "a-ha" feeling of Oh NOW I understand what happened. And that's true: it did help me to put some perspective on a lot of the things that went wrong in my relationship with D to reframe them as idealization, splitting, projection, and all those other wonderful technical terms; to remember him talking about his "abandonment issues" and realize what he was trying to tell me about himself.

But here's the thing: this is not rare. It is all too sadly common.

The compassion you've found for your ex by reading and talking and learning here and elsewhere is such a blessing. I feel the next step (or A next step) is learning to extend that compassion outward and inward, and untether it from a clinical diagnosis. Because whenever you scratch beneath the surface of a person who is being difficult (even if you are that person) there is a reason.

Once you internalize that, the need for your letter becomes both much greater and much smaller. Meaning: it could become a letter about compassion, and it does not have to deal with the particulars of one person.


Do you know the poem "This Be The Verse," by Philip Larkin? I cannot post it un-redacted, due to guidelines, but you can read it here:

https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/48419/this-be-the-verse

He's having fun with it, but there's wisdom, too.

And here is the redacted version:

They f*** you up, your mum and dad.  
    They may not mean to, but they do.  
They fill you with the faults they had
    And add some extra, just for you.

But they were f***ed up in their turn
    By fools in old-style hats and coats,  
Who half the time were soppy-stern
    And half at one another’s throats.

Man hands on misery to man.
    It deepens like a coastal shelf.
Get out as early as you can,
    And don’t have any kids yourself.

[Speck]

Hello again, Dargumin:

Would it make sense to include a couple of examples if I went ahead with it?

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by this. Are you asking if you went ahead with hosting a separate thread about this topic, or if you went ahead and sent the letter?


-Speck

[Dargumin]

Hello again, Dargumin:

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by this. Are you asking if you went ahead with hosting a separate thread about this topic, or if you went ahead and sent the letter?


-Speck

the letter

[Speck]

Hello again, Dargumin:

As far as sending the letter or not, I will just have to echo Harley Quinn and gently suggest to you that you must carefully examine the motives you have for sending such a letter, as the potential fallout from doing so may set you back in your recovery by miles. You are a good guy, and I know that you feel responsible for being the bearer of this news, but I'd also like to further suggest that you are not responsible for another adult who discarded you. Caring from a distance is the healthy path forward, my friend.

My letter doesnt really contain any "evidence" of her behaviour to me.  I have reems of whatsapp messages both illustrating how great she could be, and how quickly she could turn. How she'd talk to me like I was dog dirt. I don't wish to share this with her friends to badmouth her but rather to maybe cast her in a different light and take me seriously. Would it make sense to include a couple of examples if I went ahead with it?

I'm sorry, Dargumin. I cannot think of one reason in which revealing personal/intimate conversations of an ex to her close friends would benefit anyone. Doing so would also cross a boundary, I would think. Further, doing so will most likely humiliate your ex. The odds on this are 100%. I'm quite sure this is NOT your intention, but you cannot control how others will perceive this gesture, namely, your ex.

I know you're really struggling right now, and I can almost taste your pain. It really sucks. But, I will close by telling you that I believe you when you say that you think that your ex suffers from BPD, and that you wish to help her. It's a grand impulse to want to help others, however, I don't think sending a letter such as this will net you the result you're hoping for... .and may only deepen your agony.


-Speck

[Dargumin]

Hello again, Dargumin:

As far as sending the letter or not, I will just have to echo Harley Quinn and gently suggest to you that you must carefully examine the motives you have for sending such a letter, as the potential fallout from doing so may set you back in your recovery by miles. You are a good guy, and I know that you feel responsible for being the bearer of this news, but I'd also like to further suggest that you are not responsible for another adult who discarded you. Caring from a distance is the healthy path forward, my friend.
 

I'm sorry, Dargumin. I cannot think of one reason in which revealing personal/intimate conversations of an ex to her close friends would benefit anyone. Doing so would also cross a boundary, I would think. Further, doing so will most likely humiliate your ex. The odds on this are 100%. I'm quite sure this is NOT your intention, but you cannot control how others will perceive this gesture, namely, your ex.

I know you're really struggling right now, and I can almost taste your pain. It really sucks. But, I will close by telling you that I believe you when you say that you think that your ex suffers from BPD, and that you wish to help her. It's a grand impulse to want to help others, however, I don't think sending a letter such as this will net you the result you're hoping for... .and may only deepen your agony.


-Speck

Just to be clear, the whole point of the letter is that the ex doesn't find out about  it.   She can only feel humiliation if she finds out about it. If her friends choose to share it with her, it is in fact her friends who have humiliated her, not me.

[JNChell]

If her friends choose to share it with her, it is in fact her friends who have humiliated her, not me.

Hi, Dargumin. I think you have been getting sound advice on this issue. I also believe that you are free to do as you choose. That is your right as a human. I’m going to shake the tree a little here. Not as an insult, simply to shed a different light on things. We all feel for you and what you’re going through. Regardless of what you choose to do, we’ll still be here. 

The statement in bold at the top of this post really grabbed my attention. My question for you is, if the roles were somehow reversed for you and your ex, how might you react to receiving such news from your circle of friends? Is it possible that you might feel like your boundaries were violated? Just some food for thought. Please keep us posted on this and be kind to yourself.

[Speck]

Just to be clear, the whole point of the letter is that the ex doesn't find out about it. She can only feel humiliation if she finds out about it. If her friends choose to share it with her, it is in fact her friends who have humiliated her, not me.

Dargumin, I do believe that JNChell has offered you some sage insight on this point. I see that you are seeking perspectives here, and I think that is wonderful.

In all ways, remember to choose the path that will bring you greater harmony in life without harming others.


-Speck

[Dargumin]

Hi guys thanks for responding... .I'm not going to disscuss my motives further than what I've said really as I think I've been quite clear, but try this analogy.

Imagine it's 2am and you see a fire in the house across the road, you've got no hosepipe, and no water.  The next door neighbours of the burning house have both of these things, but are asleep and don't know about the fire.    What would you do?
 Would you run and wake the neighbours up and get them to put out the fire?  Or would you just go back to bed for fear they'd be mad that you're disturbing their sleep and the sleep of the person in the burning house.   

The statement in bold at the top of this post really grabbed my attention. My question for you is, if the roles were somehow reversed for you and your ex, how might you react to receiving such news from your circle of friends? Is it possible that you might feel like your boundaries were violated? Just some food for thought. Please keep us posted on this and be kind to yourself.

Now re the roles reversed bit:  if it was reversed I'd have BPD... .so on finding out I imagine I'd perceive it as an attack and be angry because that's kinda what she always does. 

Now I think about it more deeply, if a person making another person aware that their friend probably has a mental illness and could do with pointing towards therapy is deemed a boundary infringement, then that's why the stigma of mental health still carries on.  Imagine it was cancer rather than BPD, it'd be OK for me to tell them then wouldn't it? 

[lighthouse9]

Hey Dargumin,

This is an excellent thread, and I feel you on wanting to alert others about the fire. I recently alerted someone, but in a pretty nuanced way, and like you, I put a lot of thought into it.

Here's the thing about your fire analogy: what if she's only burning around you? What if only you can see the fire? What if you're fuel to the fire? What if when you look away from her, the fire goes out, even if temporarily?

I ask these questions because they are questions I had to ask myself. Is she at risk of hurting herself and doing you have evidence that she can't take care of herself? Is she responsible for things that are much bigger than her, like using weapons as part of her job or caring for people as a medical professional? Has she ever shown signs of not being responsible for those things? Is she at risk of physically hurting someone else and has she given clear indications that she might do so?

Or, are you worried she's going to keep burning in front of other people and bringing them into her blaze?

In your analogy - would I just go back to bed for fear they'd be mad that I'm disturbing their sleep and the sleep of the person in the burning house? In my case, yes. My STBXw's friends have been able to sleep just fine knowing who she is, and she sleeps just fine, too. I'm the one losing sleep (or at least was). Her friends have enabled this behavior in her for a long time for not calling it out and not intervening. Hell, they even joke about it. "That's just (Lighthouse's wife)."

In my case, the person I told was in a position to help should they need to help. I didn't give my suspected diagnoses, because I can't diagnose her. We compared facts and came to the conclusion together that she's hiding things from both of us. I gave some minor examples of her behavior that were alarming, but hey, sometimes people do crazy stuff. I also hedged that I could be the problem in all of this - that I could be the fuel to the fire, and that she's making the best choice, even if going about it in a really unhealthy way, to remove me from her life. This person has my phone number if she thinks it is ever needed, but likely, it won't be. This person is someone I trust to keep an eye out, but who also has no reason to act at the moment. In other words, this person is the safety net I can no longer be.

If the roles were reversed, I'd hope she would reach out to someone the way I did. But, I'm an extremely transparent person and hide very little from anyone. If a similar person in my life found out, I would be ok with it, and would take their concerns seriously.

But... .

and big but... .

I don't have BPD. I didn't have a traumatic childhood. I do not react out of fear and have legitimate reason to do so.

My therapist said some really powerful stuff to me about some of my STBXw's coping mechanisms, which you'll only really hear a DBT therapist say. If she's using a "target behavior" like drinking, cutting, or other self-harm, she's doing it to get out of distress. In a way, it's her version of self-care. It's maladaptive, sure, but it likely won't kill her. And until she gets help and decides she needs it, she'll continue to do these things. I can't unlearn those skills for her and I certainly can't convince her friends to unlearn them for her. She'll continue to be on fire.

All I can do is look away and stay out of the burn zone.

[Dargumin]

Hey Dargumin,



Here's the thing about your fire analogy: what if she's only burning around you? What if only you can see the fire? What if you're fuel to the fire? What if when you look away from her, the fire goes out, even if temporarily?

I ask these questions because they are questions I had to ask myself. Is she at risk of hurting herself and doing you have evidence that she can't take care of herself? Is she responsible for things that are much bigger than her, like using weapons as part of her job or caring for people as a medical professional? Has she ever shown signs of not being responsible for those things? Is she at risk of physically hurting someone else and has she given clear indications that she might do so?

Or, are you worried she's going to keep burning in front of other people and bringing them into her blaze?

Thank you for running with my analogy, you've clearly grasped exactly how I'm feeling.  
And yes, I am one of the people that she burns around.  That's why i just want to pass on my knowledge and put it all behind me, it's the closest to closure I will ever get.  She's not on fire when she's single. But she won't be single for long.  And every time she gets in an intimate relationship she will burn and yes the other person will be burned badly too.  I'm a peaceful person, but if she ever exercises poor judgement and gets with a more aggressive man, I fear what response she may illicit from them.  

Thankfully she's High Functioning as far as I'm aware so suicide and self harm are probably not going to occur.  A long life full of pain, anger, confusion & breakup after breakup are what lies ahead.  Hardly the end of the world you may think.  But BPD aside, SHE'S SO DAMN SPECIAL.  Of all the people in the world to have BPD , anyone but her.  

  

[lighthouse9]

Hey Dargumin,

I'm glad I could catch your drift here and that the analogy was understood.

So, she ends up in another relationship and burns someone else... .

is that the other person's choice what to do in that relationship?

Would you have heeded that warning if you were given it? I know I wouldn't have, and I would bet any of my STBXw's other exes wouldn't have either. Heck, she's still got one guy that follows her around like a puppy and guess what, he's back in her life now that we're split up. You think he'd learn, but he hasn't, and that's his choice.

The guy she cheated with? Heck, she could have reallllly ruined his life, his marriage, his job, his relationship with his kids. But you know what? He still went for it.

Why?

Because like you said - she's so dang special.

She is - my wife is one amazing and lovely human being. She also struggles with what I suspect to be BPD and maybe is bipolar, too. Those things prevent her from keeping her fire to a low blaze and have prevented me from being a loving partner when I'm playing firefighter all the time.

So, let's say that in this hypothetical scenario that she finds someone else and, like you fear, that person is physically abusive.

Abuse is complex. It's hard to leave abuse. But, ultimately, a person has to make that choice. You can't make that choice for her, especially in a hypothetical future. She hasn't yet come to you for support in that situation, so you're off the hook for now on how to respond to that hypothetical situation. And, be careful here, because a pwBPD can easily make abuse allegations about another person in order to get the next person (or a recycle) to play hero. I wouldn't doubt that my ex told people that I was abusive (I wasn't). Why? Because it's a hugeeee button of mine, and mannn oh man is she good at finding my buttons and pushing them.

Can you love her, feel concern for her, have empathy, wish like hell that BPD wasn't part of her, and still have your own detachment process? What would that look like?

Maybe flip the roles here. Can you put yourself in the perspective of someone whose known her for a very long time, and write yourself a letter? What advice and support might that person offer.

In other words... .

Are you ok?

Really, truly, think about that.

Are you ok?

It's ok to say no. I'm not 100% ok. Far from it. Heck I was just walking back to my desk from a meeting and felt a cold stab in my heart thinking about how I'm going home another day to an empty house. I'm not ok. I'm getting there. But I'm not ok.

What letter do I need to read? What would I need to know from someone to be ok? What would the five years from now version of me write to me now? Would that person still be worried about who she is seeing and who she is now making promises to?

We're going to get there buddy. One step at a time.

Also, I bet you're pretty dang special yourself. Even if you feel like really old leftovers right now 

[RandomName]

Hi Dargumin. I can understand your intentions. If I may, you seem pretty determined and unyielding on this despite what people are advising, after you posted this seemingly in hopes to receive advice.

I am quite verbose naturally and used to feel like I had no other course of action when my upwBPD~gf would start fights and shut down than some long texts and/or a letter to her, which had a lot of JADE in them but also empathy and reassertion, both of my love and of my boundaries. These usually went over well -- because they went through many iterations and the negative emotions tended to dissipate with each revision before I finally sent them (though I certainly had some more frustrated, impulsive reactions). I never had the instinct to tell her other loved ones, partly because I didn't know many of them, partly because she is estranged from enough people already, partly because that seems truly overstepping boundaries to me -- the very nature of BPD is how it affects relationships, so it's a double-edge sword -- you want to warn those she's in a relationship with, but I'm all but certain that at least one of them will surely tell her, and she will feel ambushed as you acknowledged.

My upwBPD~gf's fights eventually built up so much for me that after one last Christmas, I sent her an email saying I thought she showed traits on the BPD spectrum. That resulted in the longest period of No Contact, seven weeks. We've reconciled since but with more recycles.

I say all this as prelude to -- if you are dead-set on this letter, put it through several more revisions, cutting material each way, each time, only refining, not adding. Because right now it looks a lot like a defense of yourself and not as much of a caution for them or a loving helpful gesture by proxy.

Good luck.

I'll quote something from Codependency for Dummies: "your impact wanes with words."

[lighthouse9]

Hey Dargumin,

How are you doing? Just wanted to check in... .

-L

[Dargumin]

Hey Dargumin,

How are you doing? Just wanted to check in... .

-L

Hi Lighthouse9,

So I took a break from the board. Truth is as mentioned in my initial post regarding "intrusive thoughts" that I was in a big rumination loop. 
I'm currently a mature student studying a Masters, it's coursework season and as deadlines approach she has been my "go to" procrastination topic. 

I never sent the letter out that was intended for her friends. It is too likely one will run with it to her, and yes often my thought process has been:

1) Try and help "fix" her
2) If I can't "fix" her, make her regret what she put me through.   

The contrast between the 2 options is quite extreme and highlights how conflicted I am.  I realised that for my peace of mind I needed to find a 3rd option.

Ultimately I was very frustrated that my heartfelt and apologetic Xmas message got an initially positive-ish (but emotionally numb reply) and when I tried justifying talking to one of her ex's (as I wanted validation and had concerns about her mental health) she went mad , threatened an injunction & blocked me.  That Xmas message was meant to be me leaving things on a nice note for my closure but it went wrong (perhaps this was always her intention from the outset of replying - I don't know).

This letter to her friends would also have been a closure attempt - except I can see it would likely backfire so have not gone through with it.
Weirdly a week after I decided not to go ahead with sending this, I had a chance encounter with her at a train station on Good Friday, it was very brief, we just talked about weekend plans and we went our separate ways.  It's the first time in 11 months that I left her presence without a sour taste at the end of it.   

In the end I wrote her a letter, not about BPD, just accepting my part of the blame and appreciating how I unintentionally hurt her and how I can see what an annoyance I became after the break up, explaining the other things I was going through at the time and asking her to forgive me just as I forgive her.   I sent the letter with a nice bouquet of flowers on the anniversary of our split, apologising that they are a year late .  4 days later and I have heard nothing back from her, I'm OK with this.  All I want is to be nice to her and hold myself accountable for my part in things and not have the apology tainted by her going mad at me.

You see I realised something - knowledge of BPD IS useful to me even if I can't use it to help her.  It tells me that there was nothing I could have done to stop it, it tells me I was unlucky to encounter it, as is she. It tells me that she must encounter harsh emotional pain more frequently than most and it teaches me to pity her for that and understand her anger comes because she really believes the accusations she's making, no matter how divorced from reality they are. 

Yes it would be great if this knowledge could be used by me to help "fix" her, but it can't and finally I accept that.  At least it allows me to forgive both her and myself for the way the relationship ended.

Time will tell if this is the real end of this journey for me, but it sure feels like it might be.  

     




 


 

[Shawnlam]

I can see you have great love for this person and would like anything in the world to fix her (or at the very least tell her what’s wrong with her).The issue is (and I’m in the same boat), they need to want help first.My exGF knows she has issues and even told me so,left hints all over the place,but has still to make the effort to try something.With that said what would be the point of me trying to bring this to her attention except to stimulate further hatred towards me? The best I can hope for and this is a long shot trust me ,is to remain no contact,don’t act like all the other men she’s had,and in final hope one day she reaches back out to me.Why? Because maybe then I can use my new found knowledge and understanding to not so much trick her but help her .If not then I care out with a wealth of knowledge beyond what I could hope for and a new respect on psychology and interest to learn more.

[Dargumin]

I can see you have great love for this person and would like anything in the world to fix her (or at the very least tell her what’s wrong with her).The issue is (and I’m in the same boat), they need to want help first.My exGF knows she has issues and even told me so,left hints all over the place,but has still to make the effort to try something.With that said what would be the point of me trying to bring this to her attention except to stimulate further hatred towards me? The best I can hope for and this is a long shot trust me ,is to remain no contact,don’t act like all the other men she’s had,and in final hope one day she reaches back out to me.Why? Because maybe then I can use my new found knowledge and understanding to not so much trick her but help her .If not then I care out with a wealth of knowledge beyond what I could hope for and a new respect on psychology and interest to learn more.

Interesting comment about differentiating yourself from how other exes have acted after the split.
 I know one of her ex's ended it, and she made real efforts to try and get him back but he refused - I certainly haven't had that and god knows how many recycles I would be in if that had happened.   

And I know another went fully NC on her immediately after she dumped him, I don't believe she made any attempts to get back in touch - I think this was actually her dream situation - be a cow and the guy vanishes and doesn't challenge her behaviour just goes NC - I didn't want to give her that, I wanted to challenge her and see if she could "snap out of it".  The more I learned about BPD the more I realise how unlikely that is once you are split black.

[Shawnlam]

I’m all fairness I don’t think she will reach out to me either and I dumped her and have been NC for literally only 9 days.I won’t lie to you or anyone here and say me never communicating with her will happen , I’m not sure I won’t do it.I was thinking about either doing it soon or months from now when she isn’t pissed off at me anymore.I get this feeling(my sixth sense) that she may be permanently done with me because I generally hurt her emotionally even though I left as a perfect gentleman.She understandably with BPD will never really get why I left her again because in her mind she never did anything wrong even though she followed her usual pattern of almost apologizing before she did the act.Allow me to explain that:
Everytime she would do something bad to me ,right before I’d get these weird emotional texts or affection from her example: I’d get a text saying ; I love and adore you so much ,I will never cheat on you,disappoint or hurt you intentionally,I’m sincere when I tell you this baby.Then literally like clockwork within 2-7days I’d get f&“ over .Either she had planned a trip with her gf and tell me last minute,cancel one of our trips,or both.One time she took a Friday off to be with me because she knew how upset I was that she had booked Saturday evening and Sunday away with her gf two hours away.I got the most affection and sex Friday/Saturday am so I didn’t think much of it until I found out yeah she did go out with her gf for the weekend (but she left out an ex boyfriend was there as well).So yeah without a blink of an eye she cheated on me .
 Another thing she would do that actually sold herself out multiple  times would be to send a ton of selfies on one of her trips (showing me look I’m with my gf) thenthe ohone would go dead from 10pm till the next day.This is a classic sign of over compensation of doing something wrong cuz the next morning in bed alone  she’d send me another ... .taking me for a fool of course.
  Any sort of random love bombing ,pictures or excessive texting (after the mirroring stage), usually meant she was lieing to me or she did the act of something wrong already.
   Near the end when I told her I don’t believe her BS texts anymore and to stop taking me for a fool is when she broke down crying and getting overly emotional.She knew I was on to her games and tactics ,and when I left her again I think it could be why she hasn’t bothered to contact me.She didn’t paint me black though she admitted in writing that 1:I didn’t treat her like a piece of meat like most guys,and she also admitted I treated her with respect.She thanked me for telling her I will always be there for her ,and she wished me well with a XO on a final text .She never admitted she was wrong though and said I left her for stupid reasons but I assure you she knows exactly why I left.Does she feel guilty or sad ,who knows ,I’ll never know that .She said she was tired of living up to everyone’s expectations (which made no sense when she said that because nobody was trying to change her). I think I’m Her way at the time she knew what she was gonna do and did it anyways thinking I’d read her text prior and be stupid enough to say “ohh well she told me she would never hurt me on purpose so I guess it’s ok then”.Well in fortunately for her I’m not a retard and didn’t accept being disrespected like that.If I would have known more about BPD then maybe I’d of done something different who knows .

[Harley Quinn]

Hi Dargumin,

I've been off board a few days and it was great to see an update from you.  Especially this part:

Yes it would be great if this knowledge could be used by me to help "fix" her, but it can't and finally I accept that.  At least it allows me to forgive both her and myself for the way the relationship ended.

Letting go of the self blame is a really positive step.  I beat myself up for too long and it's not recommended.  Also accepting we aren't able to fix another person is something I struggled with, so it seems to me that you're doing really well.  Clearly you've had some realisations that are going to benefit you.  How is the rumination going and how did you feel after the letter was sent?  Any sense of closure/relief?

Love and light x

[gotbushels]

Hi Dargumin 

I want to support your discussion with some ideas.

I understand you want to help someone. A lot of SOs here have been so helpful that it got them into a lot of issues for themselves and the others they love. I know roughly where you're at.

Imagine it's 2am and you see a fire in the house across the road ... .

I understand your analogy. Yes, if a house was burning, it would be good to do what's safe to help other people who are at risk. They may lose their lives or be burned. Yes, to warn them is a good neighbourly thing to do. Me too, when my ex recycled onto another guy--I actually considered helping him know about her issue. So the fire thing is accurate in that situation.

Imagine it was cancer rather than BPD ... .

So another perspective is to imagine you're a lighthouse. You have this information that you found helpful to you. Your ex is a boat. Your ex's friends are boats. Each of those boats as functional adults has the freedom to choose their own support system. Does the lighthouse have an obligation to uproot itself to save the boats? While you are uprooting, do you have obligations to other boats?



I'm not taking sides with the next point. I want to clarify that one thing we try to do as the non is separate our feelings from those of the pwBPD. Therefore--with avoiding enmeshment clearly in mind--if you damage the relationship between her friends and her, that may cause her some amount of pain.

On some level, you already know this:

if it was reversed I'd have BPD... .so on finding out I imagine I'd perceive it as an attack and be angry because that's kinda what she always does. 

It's thought that SOs know their pwBPDs very well. I think you can trust your own thoughts here about her reaction.

One thing we do in relationship detaching is to avoid creating pain in the other party--because doing so may result in increases in communication and escalation. Both of these we don't want in the long term (I'm making a big assumption you've already decided this big question for yourself). Therefore:

Here's the letter I would send her friends, if anyone can explain why it's still a bad idea pleas let me know.

To send the letter to her friends is not "bad". I think it's not in your long term interests. It's not getting you what you want. I encourage you to take that into account and make your own choice.

I feel that to realise she is ill and not inform anyone else is quite selfish of me, she deserves to have friends willing to help her.

Fortunately the same as the thread title ( Speck), I think the issue is this.

Along with once removed and steelwork's sharings.

it sounds like youre struggling with "shoulds" - the feeling that you "should" hate her, but that you cant because you think she has a disorder. i would suggest you can work through this, with or without a label.

Another way to look at it is this--do you feel an obligation to look after the wellbeing of her friends? Is that your responsibility?

I hope you find peace.

[Dargumin]

Hi Dargumin,

I've been off board a few days and it was great to see an update from you.  Especially this part:

Letting go of the self blame is a really positive step.  I beat myself up for too long and it's not recommended.  Also accepting we aren't able to fix another person is something I struggled with, so it seems to me that you're doing really well.  Clearly you've had some realisations that are going to benefit you.  How is the rumination going and how did you feel after the letter was sent?  Any sense of closure/relief?

Love and light x

Yes the realisations have been of benefit. In the end her success career wise has made it a bit easier for me to walk away too as at least she's fully capable of providing for herself with no man on the scene.  Rumination wise I still think of her,  but I no longer have this feeling that there's something I have to do to help her.   I do feel better for sending the letter and flowers, it's a shame they've not been acknowledged but I do know that if that is the last interaction I ever have with her, it was one of me being nice to her, and that's all I've ever wanted to be.

[Harley Quinn]

I'm glad that you feel some ease from that.  At least things were on your terms in that respect.  If you were to receive a response, what do you think you would do?  Have you thought about it?

Love and light x

[Dargumin]

I'm glad that you feel some ease from that.  At least things were on your terms in that respect.  If you were to receive a response, what do you think you would do?  Have you thought about it?

Love and light x

I think it would depend on the nature of the response.  I've no wish to continue arguing so if she came back with something negative I would just ignore.
Anything positive I would acknowledge. But unless she actually held herself accountable for some of her actions  I would just leave it there.  If she held herself accountable then that might be a bit of a breakthrough moment, I can't see it ever happening though.

[Harley Quinn]

If that day ever comes, be sure to pay close attention to her actions over the words.  So what's the plan from here for Dargumin?   

Love and light x

[Dargumin]

If that day ever comes, be sure to pay close attention to her actions over the words.  So what's the plan from here for Dargumin?   

Love and light x

Yeah I certainly would do.  The plan now is to finish my Masters over the Summer, find where the job is at and then meet a girl when I get to wherever it is that I'm going.

[Harley Quinn]

It's good to hear that you're putting your personal priorities first and focusing on your future.  Good luck with your Masters!  Take a little time to really think about what you value in a relationship and put some good energy behind that. 

Have you spent any time thinking about what brought you into a disordered r/s?  Having been through this experience presents us with an opportunity to take a look at what makes us get into and hold this type of r/s, and we can then begin to make choices that better serve us.  It's worth putting the work in before prospecting new partners, as getting healthier ourselves will mean we attract healthier mates. 

Love and light x 

[Dargumin]

It's good to hear that you're putting your personal priorities first and focusing on your future.  Good luck with your Masters!  Take a little time to really think about what you value in a relationship and put some good energy behind that. 

Have you spent any time thinking about what brought you into a disordered r/s?  Having been through this experience presents us with an opportunity to take a look at what makes us get into and hold this type of r/s, and we can then begin to make choices that better serve us.  It's worth putting the work in before prospecting new partners, as getting healthier ourselves will mean we attract healthier mates. 

Love and light x 

In my case we were only together for 8 weeks, but clubbing friends for 9 years.  The moment she crossed a major boundary I pressed the "break up" button.  She's extremely high functioning, there was no way of knowing unless I had bothered to quiz her exes before starting the relationship.  I've been wanting to make amends with her for three main reasons
1) Going cold turkey on her was extremely painful, I was very much addicted to her so early on that was the main driver
2) I've known her nine years and we've had some great times and to me that's worth a lot (sadly means nothing to her)
3) Learning about BPD made me realise she has been through so much pain and it's not her fault she is like this, so as someone who values those 9 fun years we were mates,  I just want to help her face this and get help (not going to happen).

It probably doesn't help that my Dad has a lot of narc traits so I'm used to love being conditional and having to take a lot of flack - though I'm glad to say I'm aware of this and I'm not accepting these traits in the would-be mother of my children. 

[Harley Quinn]

That's a reasonable value to have in a r/s, and logical based on your experience.  Kudos to you for maintaining your boundary on the behaviour you were not willing to accept.  It must have been tough taking flack as you were growing up.  I'm sorry to hear that.  I want to commend you on your self awareness.  :)o you find that you have the instinct to rescue normally, or do you feel that your wanting to help her is due to the knowledge you have of BPD now?

Love and light x

[Dargumin]

That's a reasonable value to have in a r/s, and logical based on your experience.  Kudos to you for maintaining your boundary on the behaviour you were not willing to accept.  It must have been tough taking flack as you were growing up.  I'm sorry to hear that.  I want to commend you on your self awareness.  :)o you find that you have the instinct to rescue normally, or do you feel that your wanting to help her is due to the knowledge you have of BPD now?

Love and light x

I certainly didn't used to be self-aware.  I'm thankful that a friend I made over the last 18 months holds a psychology degree and works as a social worker, she's helped me with a lot of insight.  I'm fortunate that a lot of the people I know are quite "sorted" in life, or at least appear to be from my perspective so situations requiring "rescuing" have not been a feature.  I was a very self centred individual through my 20s and I doubt I would have back then.     

My suspected BPDex is one of 4 significant romantic relationships in my life and the first who I truly respected in terms of having a proper "Gameplan" for life.  It's something I've always had in mind but not been able to follow through on, and something my other exes had no clue about at all.  I think in a way I had hoped she would be the one to rescue me and help me stay focused on a path, one that would feature us both.   I've realised this is a vital thing I'm seeking in my next relationship and this is why I'm doing the Masters, I need to rescue myself and not look to others to do it for me.   My undergrad degree of Economics was foisted on me by my father and I performed as you would expect someone to when they have no real interest or desire in the subject.  That was 15 years ago, I've finally started making my own decisions and stopped looking to impress him and it fells great!       

[Harley Quinn]

Wow that's fantastic!  It warms my heart to read this.  Good on you for taking charge of your life and working towards making it the life you want for yourself.  You're absolutely right in that nobody can rescue us any more than we can rescue them.  We can only carry ourselves on our own unique journey.  Others can walk beside us if they choose too and are going in the same direction.  Stick to the path that takes you where you wish to go. 

Love and light x