Can we separate BPD from the individual's decisions and hold them accountable?

[Darkblaez]

I have come to realize that not all BPD individuals abuse is this a fair assessment? BPD is a personality disorder and they way an individual perceives reality is skewed based on whatever trauma they have been through at such an early age in childhood and even the new thoughts around ages 0 to 18 months for attachment.

While my ex has BPD, she made the decision whether impulsive or not to cheat and as an individual should be held accountable. The same goes for the abuse that was doled out.

Here's why I post this, it would be unfair to just blame BPD for many of my ex's decisions. They are aware of right from wrong.

Can we separate the BPD from the individual's decisions to hold them accountable. Accountable being a relative term as typically the do not care about anyone but themselves.

I tend to think of it this way, please correct me if I am wrong, my ex has BPD which sort of governs her decision making or impulse. But as a person, she still is responsible for her decisions and held accountable. I cannot say that the BPD abused me but rather she did.

Even if I say she does not have BPD, the abuse, cheating, emotional manipulation, etc are all abusive and as such no matter what she went through as a child, who she is as an person is disgustingly horrible.

-Darkblaez

[SlyQQ]

People with BPD are abusers, they can try not to be but it is an efrfort,

there are many different types of abuse, from gas lighting to stabing you,

but if they don't have to curtail there abusive side they are not BPD

no there is no equivocation no generalizations or maybes

[Speck]

Darkblaez,

This is a good question.

I would think that everyone who is of sound mind is responsible for his/her own behavior, choices, words, and actions. I tend to view pwBPD of sound mind while also being afflicted with a personality disorder, rather than a mental disorder. Conversely, someone who is truly psychotic (mental) would not be held to the same standard.

Those who suffer from BPD have a VERY difficult time with impulse control, but they are still responsible for the consequences of leaping before looking. Incidentally, being held responsible for their poor decision-making is also immensely difficult for pwBPD to own. So... .that explains all the wild projection during a fallout.


-Speck

[Gunit1]

Mine wasn't abusive in way of psychical. Tho she did hit her ex bf when in her early 20s. Now 35 what I got was yes angry issues and up and down emotional on how she felt. But abusive in manipulation, massive lies and deciet and cheating by then end and then blaming me for everything. That's when saw true dark side and her personality totally change. To everyone who knows her at work ect she still acts like same fake nice person, to her new guy she act diff to how she acted to me but when comes to devaluing him one day he will see the real person.

[Kaboodle]

Trauma does not cause abusive behaviour. Mental illness does not cause abusive behaviour. BPD does not cause abusive behaviour.

Abusive behaviour is a choice. Abusers believe and feel that their abuse is justified. Their sense of entitlement motivates their abusiveness.

My uBPDxbf was a pillar of the community who held steady employment, obtained his Masters degree, and served on local nonprofit boards.

He was also an abuser. Who happened to have BPD.

[Shawnlam]

To echo what speck wrote it’s all about impulse control not really responsibility.For example I found out through my exBPDgf’s  ex best friend something fairly disturbing.One night both her and my ex were out drinking at a bar ,4 guys from university started buying them drinks etc etc.One of the guys offered the girls to come back with them to their place ,the ex best friend didn’t and my exGF did .I don’t need to fill out what happened going foreword .Now any woman in their right mind wouldn’t go away with 4 guys ,dangerous,obvious what they wanted.Ive noticed BPD people do reckless self destructive things without blinking an eye .Yes it’s irresponsible of course but it’s mostly impulsive and they have an enormously hard time forecasting scenarios or probable outcomes.

Oh and she was dating someone at the time... .so cheating,lieing,abusing to them has no consequence,because they never think further than the moment.

[Darkblaez]

Thank you all for responding. This has confirmed what I was thinking. I will say that she just popped up a new Facebook and they both linked one another. Incidentally he is  Branch Manager at Enterprise Rent-A-Car and used his personal cell on company time to talk to her 2 to 4 hours a day to ramp up the affair. Guess this gives a whole new meaning to customer service.

I will refrain from watching this Facebook evolve as there is no point and it would serve to just trigger deep emotion and I need to move past and detach. But I was astonished at how quickly she has gained access to his life, embedding with his family, attending an Easter mass, and then how quickly she added her entire family and his. The pics she took was from his bathtub perspective so I assume staking her claim and letting everyone know. That is the first and last time I will even be glancing at Facebook. And so her cycle repeats... .

Again thank you all for the responses

-Darkblaez

[Shawnlam]

Dark don’t take anything personal on what she is doing ,they don’t know what they are doing. My ex’s last boyfriend went as follows : first 3 months he was living with her,one month later they were engaged.The whole family on her side knew him and all her friends .Month 13 they bought a house together, between month 15-27 he left her three times taking the furniture because he bought it( she cheated on him numerous times with her ex bf). They split up lost everything he sued her for mental anguish.She did this all the while , with two kids just going to show you she cares only about her self.

I come along , 3 months no family or friends contact at all except her mom and one kid.Month 4 second kid no family no moving in.Month 5 she gets pregnant and asked me if I wanted it(still no family introduced or friends) Month 6 dumped her.

Here is my take on why BPDs are different with each person(minus the fact they don’t know themselves). I think they know ahead of time when a relationship will end by the guy they are using (sorry dating).Her past bf was a loser ,making 21$ an hour,pot head bipolar guy with no self esteem or confidence who felt honored and so previlged to have such a gorgeous woman.Me I had a home,money confidence,assets and self esteem ,I was on a timer since she got me.She knew what her family would of said if I showed up,she knew I would of picked up on her BS past even faster ,she knew once it was over it would be hard to play the victim once I was gone to the very people she hid me from.

So dark , don’t be hard on yourself for not getting what he is getting .Pat yourself on the back because this just proves you are a far better person than what she has.Just sit back with the popcorn and watch the show on this poor ass she’s got now.

[Darkblaez]

Thanks for the response and support. I can see how the show has started with a bang and perhaps cycle through the same mess I went through of which I probably hung on too long for reasons which I have started to understand.

It just dawned on me, when she had her affairs along with all of the online webcam liaisons, the urge may have been impulsive but there was a lot of planning an decision making on her part. She had to create new accounts on multiple dating sites and dating apps, take the pics in full makeup, do her hair, and look great. She had to be sure she did this while I was at work and then insure I never found out. That includes trying to remove the pics from her phone but save them (she emailed them to herself), then cover her tracks. But she was never very good at this since she forgets Google keeps track of every app you download across devices. She had a tablet which was never used but linked to her account so it would always show what apps were installed on devices along with her phone backed up to the cloud so pics would sync to the tablet even if she erased them.

My point here is, while we may consider the impulsivity of individuals with BPD, there is indeed a bit of planning and many decisions which are being made to cheat, be dishonest, cover their tracks. That being the case, then that indicates a strong knowledge of right from wrong. So their actions along show that they are indeed abusers at their core as individuals who just happen to have BPD.

Fair assessment?

[Shawnlam]

Yeah fair assessment ,they are evil people it seems at heart .But never forget to icky’s post they have the mentality of children meaning ( they want to do what they want,when they want ,how they want).We were just along for the ride so they wouldn’t feel lonely.

[Cromwell]

Mines not only knew what she was doing was wrong, she went to the extra special effort to amplify it and shock value it. I can only assume based on the low life she went with that she needed some extra "kick" in order to go through with it.

At least in your case there was an attempt to hide it, mines went to the effort to mock me with it because it made her feel in the midst of the depression she was in at the time for being discarded by her ex previously, a way of spreading the pain. Her pain more linked to having lost control of a target and being abandoned as a result.

The next day she was back in contact and behaved like nothing had ever happened, when I side questioned her about what she had been up to that night I got such a fantasy story that made no sense at all.

At that impulsive moment as shawnlams story illustrates, they are on an emotional high and just do whatever feels right. The person she went with was another disordered and encouraged it to get his power kick.

So there are many variables and dynamics at play to ever situation.

dont worry I got my revenge on him. As for her, I am still figuring out why I carried on with it all, part of it was how nonchalant she was about everything and I think it was easier for me to accept her fantasy version than the truth at that time. Indeed, the more I learn the more I realise the significance of the fact that whilst they are aware what they are doing, they do have breaks from reality. Mine was addicted to alcohol and drugs and whoever would provide them, add that into the mix and you are dealing with someone who whilst is still aware of what they are doing, their path is very much self destructive, and if you want to join in this quest - they wont stop you from joining them.

[Rinzler]

It just dawned on me, when she had her affairs along with all of the online webcam liaisons, the urge may have been impulsive but there was a lot of planning an decision making on her part. She had to create new accounts on multiple dating sites and dating apps, take the pics in full makeup, do her hair, and look great. She had to be sure she did this while I was at work and then insure I never found out. That includes trying to remove the pics from her phone but save them (she emailed them to herself), then cover her tracks. But she was never very good at this since she forgets Google keeps track of every app you download across devices. She had a tablet which was never used but linked to her account so it would always show what apps were installed on devices along with her phone backed up to the cloud so pics would sync to the tablet even if she erased them.

My point here is, while we may consider the impulsivity of individuals with BPD, there is indeed a bit of planning and many decisions which are being made to cheat, be dishonest, cover their tracks. That being the case, then that indicates a strong knowledge of right from wrong. So their actions along show that they are indeed abusers at their core as individuals who just happen to have BPD.

100% same exact experience. Mine thought I could not tell something was amiss... .but I was recording all that she did while I was at work... .and the sob did all these same things. For sure af they should face repercussions for their perfectly well made decisions and executed plans.  

I like what you wrote here and your very first post.


Shawnlam we share a similar timeline and I also experienced that attempt to get pregnant as well. You are 100% spot on also.

I think its important to harden up about these stories and these facts... .its important to understand they have and do cause suicides. Some registered and im sure some not.

Thank you for sharing the harsh truth on just how things should be looked at. It is not entirely necessary to dive into these "people"s lunacies and technicalities of their diseased riddled brains.  What is necessary is to understand the final results and grand accumulation of what they do is malevolent and well calculated evil in nature.  And thats all that matters... .the final results of these people are criminal in nature. And they can and should be judged very weight filled.

[Rinzler]

Mines not only knew what she was doing was wrong, she went to the extra special effort to amplify it and shock value it. I can only assume based on the low life she went with that she needed some extra "kick" in order to go through with it.

Same here. Extra effort all the way... .I returned the effort tho... .and it crushed her... .I repeatedly returned the effort with pics that she thought were new. It demolished her.  And during that rage she let out more and more of what she was up to. And it was delicious.  It was my stock supply and fuel to keep my despise growing and stay in NO CONTACT. Which she is still exploding about as I can see all the attempts total 30 as of yesterday. Sick sick demented and corrupt "people".  The definition of evil imo.

Thanks for sharing biiiggg time this has been a great thread both in shared unison understanding and more data collected on the evil they do and how.

[Insom]

As I understand it, a BPD diagnosis is a tool we can use to understand confusing behavior and how to best respond.  It doesn't excuse abuse.

[once removed]

I have come to realize that not all BPD individuals abuse is this a fair assessment?

its fair to say that anything you read that suggests all individuals of any group of people are the same, it should be filtered. BPD is a spectrum disorder. some are much higher, some are much lower, there are over 300 different combinations, etc. it would be akin to saying "all introverts do/dont do this".

BPD is a personality disorder and they way an individual perceives reality is skewed based on whatever trauma they have been through at such an early age in childhood and even the new thoughts around ages 0 to 18 months for attachment.

you are on track, but for some perspective on this, that is true for all of us. we all filter reality through very personal and unique lenses, based on our experiences, our perspective, our personality, etc.

While my ex has BPD, she made the decision whether impulsive or not to cheat and as an individual should be held accountable. The same goes for the abuse that was doled out.

like Insom suggested, BPD is not an excuse for abuse. adults are responsible and accountable for their behavior.

it also falls on us to be accountable to ourselves, our values, and our boundaries. for example, you define what cheating is (people have different definitions of whats in and out of bounds), you define your value (fidelity), your boundaries around it, and you live those things in your actions. if cheating is a deal breaker, you exit the relationship. that holds them accountable. it holds you accountable.

Here's why I post this, it would be unfair to just blame BPD for many of my ex's decisions. They are aware of right from wrong.

Can we separate the BPD from the individual's decisions to hold them accountable.

as Insom said, its one tool that can help us understand the behavior of our exes, our experiences, and gain perspective. fbi profilers do this with serial killers (not comparing someone with BPD to a serial killer) not to condone the actions, but to better understand them.

processing these relationships is no easy task. i went through many, many different narratives of who my ex was, who i was, and what our relationship was as i healed.

[Cromwell]

victims of serial killers dont have any more agony to go through.

borderlines instead keep theirs alive to watch them suffer.

theres the comparison

[icky]

I think this "they are evil" stuff is out of hand and a bit ridiculous.

If someone drink drives and they hit your car and you end up in a wheelchair for the rest of your life, then that person was irresponsible and reckless, but they did not do it intentionally, they certainly did not hit YOU intentionally and they are not "evil".

pwBPD do not "choose" to mirror us and they do not "choose" to press our buttons once they become dysfunctional. The button-pushing can feel "sadistic" when we are hurting, but that doesn't mean that it *is*.

I think you're doing the same thing pwBPD do - you are painting your ex's BLACK.

That stuff is NEITHER true, NOR helpful.

[Kaboodle]

pwBPD do not "choose" to mirror us and they do not "choose" to press our buttons once they become dysfunctional.

While I agree that concepts like good and evil may not be not accurate or constructive, I disagree that the button-pushing behaviour of BPDs is not deliberate.

My uBPDxbf intentionally and repeatedly chose to call me horrible names (b!tch, $lut, stupid, selfish, ugly, old, worthless, loser). He intentionally and repeatedly chose to flirt with and groom and insert his parts into married women. He intentionally and repeatedly chose to punish me with days of silent treatment for simply going to work or having lunch with my best friend. He intentionally and repeatedly chose to end our relationship, and h00ver and stalk me.

I believe that motives may be conscious or unconscious, and emotions may be spontaneous, but behaviour is always intentional.

[icky]

While I agree that concepts like good and evil may not be not accurate or constructive, I disagree that the button-pushing behaviour of BPDs is not a choice.

My uBPDxbf intentionally and repeatedly chose to call me horrible names (b!tch, $lut, stupid, ugly, old, ugly, worthless, loser). He intentionally and repeatedly chose to flirt and groom and insert his parts into married women. He intentionally and repeatedly chose to punish me with days of silent treatment for simply going to work or having lunch with my best friend. He  intentionally and repeatedly chose to end our relationship, and h00ver and stalk me.

I believe that motives may be conscious or unconscious, and emotions may be spontaneous, but behaviour is always intentional.

I don't agree at all.

That's like saying someone who's an alcoholic or addicted to drugs is *intentionally* drinking and taking drugs.

Or someone who is anorexic is *intentionally* starving themselves to death.

This is how we thought about mental illness 60 or 70 years ago.

We have moved on.

[Kaboodle]

I don't agree at all.

That's like saying someone who's an alcoholic or addicted to drugs is *intentionally* drinking and taking drugs.

Or someone who is anorexic is *intentionally* starving themselves to death.

This is how we thought about mental illness 60 or 70 years ago.

We have moved on.

Yes, someone who uses drugs or starves themselves is making behavioural choices. Did they choose to experience trauma and pain that they are otherwise unable to cope with? No. Do they deserve compassionate mental health treatment to help with their struggles? Yes. Do they get to inflict pain on others, with no consequences? No.

But thank you for informing me on now mental illness was thought of prior to 1955. Very enlightening indeed.

[icky]

Yes, someone who takes drugs or starves themselves is making behavioural choices. Did they choose to experience trauma and pain that they are otherwise unable to cope with? No. Do they deserve compassionate mental health treatment to help with their struggles? Yes. Do they get to inflict pain on others, with no consequences? No.

But thank you for informing me on now mental illness was thought of prior to 1955. Very enlightening indeed.

So what is the logic here? That you *intentionally* hooked up with someone with BPD and *intentionally* stayed in an abusive relationship?

If you are saying everyone's behaviour is 100% intentional, then so is yours, right?

[Kaboodle]

So what is the logic here? That you *intentionally* hooked up with someone with BPD and *intentionally* stayed in an abusive relationship?

If you are saying everyone's behaviour is 100% intentional, then so is yours, right?

Right. I chose that man and that relationship. And your point is?

You ought to tread very carefully now, as your "logic" has you perilously close to defending abusers of all stripes. Your viewpoint is how we thought of domestic violence 60 to 70 years ago. We have moved on.

[icky]

Right. I chose that man and that relationship. And your point is?

You ought to tread very carefully now, as your "logic" has you perilously close to defending abusers of all stripes. Your viewpoint is how we thought of domestic violence 60 to 70 years ago. We have moved on.

Nope. I think domestic violence is a problem and it is illegal and it is unacceptable.

I do not think it is evil though. I also don't think demons do it.

Both victims and perpetrators are human beings.

There's a big difference between saying the behaviour of pwBPD or people who commit domestic violence is unacceptable and calling them evil.

I also don't find it useful to say that everything everyone on the planet does is 100% intentional.

You're turning pwBPD into monsters and painting them black.

[Kaboodle]

I do not think it is evil though. I also don't think demons do it.

I was clear in my previous post: I do not think good and evil are useful concepts. But for the record, I choose to think of my uBPDxbf less as an evil monster and more as a toxic tire fire.

[icky]

Well there has been a LOT of talk here and on the detaching board the past few days calling pwBPD evil, demons, vampires and other dehumanising things.

There have been comments saying all pwBPD should be "put down" and the like.

It is getting out of hand.

It is both offensive and ridiculous.

[heartandwhole]

I’d like to remind everyone that as we all arrive here at different stages in the recovery process, there may be disagreement about causes, responsibility, and the best route(s) to recovery.

Going forward in this discussion, we ask that members stay mindful of the following guidelines:

2.1 Collegium, Not Debate: bpdfamily.com is set up as a collegium. We follow a Collegial Discussion format which is characterized as having "authority" vested equally among colleagues/peers. As such, members present their ideas in "collegial harmony" and the credibility of their positions are based solely on the quality of the points they advance in writing. Diversity is to be embraced - there is often much to be learned from others views and perspectives. Collegial Discussion is the exchange of ideas, not a debate or an argument to be won. Our common interests and goals are what brings us together - let it not be what comes between us. Please be mindful that one of the important roles we all have is to help “center” others, not pile on or inflame emotional unrest. Member should not "hijack" the threads of others by changing the subject. All posts should be targeted to the subject matter introduced by the host of the thread. Our individual thoughts and ideas are important to each of us. Members shall be patient and understanding of other members that are in different stages of the learning or healing process or have different opinions than their own.

Please note that collegial discussion is different than debate. Debate is an argument or a discussion generally ending with a vote or agreement on the best decision. In debate, unity is the objective. Members are discouraged from debating and arguing against others' positions, or questioning the wisdom of others, or restating of their position repeatedly.
https://bpdfamily.com/guidelines#collegium

2.8 Excessive Anger, Excessive Blaming: It is recognized that most members have suffered emotional loses and abuse in their relationship with a “borderline”. Recognizing that the “borderline” is mentally ill, and understanding the role of this mental illness in the relationship is an important part of healing and recovery. Coming to terms with the abuse and/or understanding our roles is also part of healing and recovery.

Anger toward the abuser is part of the healing process. Frustration, irritation, annoyance, dismay, unhappiness are healthy expressions of anger. Hostility, vindictiveness, spitefulness, bitterness , and vengefulness is unhealthy.

Indiscriminate anger and/or blaming directed at someone other than the abuser is not healthy. Defaming “borderlines” as a group, is unhealthy and may be hurtful to other members, some of which suffer with borderline traits and some of which have children, grandchildren, or family members with borderline traits. Members shall not exhibit unhealthy anger or blame, or defame "borderlines" in general.
https://bpdfamily.com/guidelines#anger

Thank you for your cooperation.

[SlyQQ]

Believing people with BPD are not responsible for there actions is infantalizing them

it may be what some deserve most are better though.

[icky]

Believing people with BPD are not responsible for there actions is infantalizing them

it may be what some deserve most are better though.

I think it's more complex than that and I think it's interesting to find out what's truly going on re responsability/ culpability/ intent/ awareness etc.

Take the examples of someone drink-driving and causing a major accident. Or someone who is addicted to alcohol/ drugs. Or someone who is anorexic.

Sure, everyone is "responsible" for their actions, but it's not clear cut.

If you say someone drink-driving is 100% to "blame" if they injure or kill someone in an accident, then what about a driver who causes a similar accident because they drove while tired, because they didn't get enough sleep the night before.

We've all done that - driven when we've been a bit too tired - and probably not caused an accident. What does that make us?

What happens if we do cause an accident while tired and several people die in the accident. Does that make us awful people that intentionally killed people by knowingly driving when tired?

I don't think this should be about absolving pwBPD of guilt or saying they aren't responsible.

I just don't think it's as clear cut as that.

Just as things like addiction or anorexia are disorders that make people behave in ways that are detrimental and they are responsible for seeking help, BPD is a disorder that leads to damaging behaviour.

There is a degree of responsibility but IMO it's not 100%.

[SlyQQ]

doesn't seem your the black and white type icky 

in the end to be in society certain rules need to be observed like drink driving.

People with BPD are expert at the driving while tired scenario it is what it is,

[The Cat in d Hat]

I used to dwell on this, but personally it served no use to me to detach.

Her words during her raging discard, “I’m like that with everyone, I destroy everything in my path”... .she knew what she was doing.

To answer the original question... .no? A pwBPD is their disorder. They identify with their problems. That is them, can’t split the person from the disorder. They should definitely be held accountable for their actions, just as I’d hold someone sick intentionally sneezing and coughing on me to get me sick . Just my understanding.