Projecting the craziness (Continued)

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

My wife came back from the city with lots of new clothes for our son. I knew she would buy him some. He needed them and she made good purchases. I said thanks to her for getting them, complimented her on a job well done and reimbursed her for what she had spent on his clothes, which she had bought out of "her" money.
She didn't say a word in reply.

While they were out, and having already mopped and washed dishes in the a.m., I did the laundry, including folding and putting away all the family's clothes, went for a run, did some of my school work, made myself lunch, and when they came back I knocked up a pasta meal for wife and son.

Just as I was serving up their food, wife says angrily, "You didn't empty out the trash!"
I answer, "I don't like your tone and the way you're criticizing".
"I not criticizing, I'm making a comment", she says.
I mention the things I did for the family while today. She said that she too did some dish washing (implying the pan that I earlier neglected to wash). " Yes, but I haven't criticised you for the jobs you have or haven't done".

Later, she tells our son who is sitting on my lap to go and sit on another seat. "Why?" I ask.
"I'm talking to him, not you," she snaps.
"Please, I don't like the aggressive way you have been with me today. I'd like you to stop." I said in a calm voice.
"Well you're always mean and aggressive with me", was her reply.
I said that I have been calm, polite with her, but that her tone when she said I didn't take out the trash was very aggressive.
"Well, did you take out the trash? Did you?"

I could see the conversation wasn't going anywhere, so I withdrew.
Mod note: this topic split from Projecting the craziness

[Dragon72]

My wife came back from the city with lots of new clothes for our son. I knew she would buy him some. He needed them and she made good purchases. I said thanks to her for getting them, complimented her on a job well done and reimbursed her for what she had spent on his clothes, which she had bought out of "her" money.
She didn't say a word in reply.

While they were out, and having already mopped and washed dishes in the a.m., I did the laundry, including folding and putting away all the family's clothes, went for a run, did some of my school work, made myself lunch, and when they came back I knocked up a pasta meal for wife and son.

Just as I was serving up their food, wife says angrily, "You didn't empty out the trash!"
I answer, "I don't like your tone and the way you're criticizing".
"I not criticizing, I'm making a comment", she says.
I mention the things I did for the family while today. She said that she too did some dish washing (implying the pan that I earlier neglected to wash). " Yes, but I haven't criticised you for the jobs you have or haven't done".

Later, she tells our son who is sitting on my lap to go and sit on another seat. "Why?" I ask.
"I'm talking to him, not you," she snaps.
"Please, I don't like the aggressive way you have been with me today. I'd like you to stop." I said in a calm voice.
"Well you're always mean and aggressive with me", was her reply.
I said that I have been calm, polite with her, but that her tone when she said I didn't take out the trash was very aggressive.
"Well, did you take out the trash? Did you?"

I could see the conversation wasn't going anywhere, so I withdrew.
Mod note: this topic split from Projecting the craziness

[formflier]

My wife came back from the city with lots of new clothes for our son. I knew she would buy him some. He needed them and she made good purchases. I said thanks to her for getting them, complimented her on a job well done and reimbursed her for what she had spent on his clothes, which she had bought out of "her" money.
She didn't say a word in reply.
 

Did she ask to be reimbursed?

Did she ask before she did this?

I'm worried you are validating an erroneous mindset on her part. 

FF

[Dragon72]

It had been agreed that new clothes would be bought some time this week and that I would cover the cost.
She said when she went out that she would be going to buy hair product for herself, so the clothes were a surprise.
She didn't ask to be reimbursed, but I had made it clear that I would cover that cost.

[formflier]

She didn't ask to be reimbursed, but I had made it clear that I would cover that cost.

Why? 

Since she was picking them... .why not let her cover "half" the cost?

Did she ask to have it all covered (I think you answered this... .just making sure)

What did you "validate" by covering it all?

FF

[formflier]

Hey... .look at your comments about her "criticizing you"

Compare that to my comments about "let her connect the dots"

If you limited your comments to "I won't be spoken to like this... " and not say anything about her intent... .what kind of ammo would have she had?

FF

[Dragon72]

Honestly, FF, her answer would have been pretty similar, along the lines of: "Well the way YOU speak to ME is worse!"

[formflier]

The key is to take away dysfunctional fastballs... and make her work harder to hand dysfunction back to you.

See how much harder she had to work in her notional response that you posted... .much more general?

Which sets you up to "lean in"  be concerned... .and let her do the work.

"Oh goodness babe... .  please give me an example of how you would like to be spoken to... ."

patience... wait

keep handing it back to her... .

Then... pivot towards solutions that work for both of you.

1.  I agree we need to speak kinder.  Let's practice this after juniors bedtime.

"let her connect the dots... "

FF

[Dragon72]

Me: "I agree we need to speak kinder.  Let's practice this after juniors bedtime."

Her: "No YOU need to learn to speak to ME kinder! Why would I want to spend time alone with you?"

Seriously, FF, I really really really appreciate what you're doing here, but for 3 weeks now she has looked at me and talked at me (when she actually has spoken to me) as if I were something that she's scraped off her shoe. And barring the odd period of civility, that's how she has been for 5 years of marriage.  But the intensity of her hatred of me has been so strong recently that I don't think this will work.  "Good morning" hasn't even worked.

I know that's negative thinking - but I will try (when I retain the presence of mind during these stressful encounters, and that's hard) to apply your strategies.  But I still can't seem to understand how to break the Drama Triangle.  She's not budging from that Victim role.  And I just don't have the intellectual capacity to not be the resuer or persecutor.  For me, I just can't see past the 3 options of carrot/stick/walk away.

Any sensible person would have said Adios years ago.

[formflier]

Seriously, FF, I really really really appreciate what you're doing here, but for 3 weeks now she has looked at me and talked at me (when she actually has spoken to me) as if I were something that she's scraped off her shoe.

I agree... .and yet it works (ed) for her... .she treats you like this... .and (up until recently) you have done a wonderful job of insulating her from the natural and logical consequences of treating you like that.

So... .please be empathetic and understand how perplexing this must be for her...


I'm not interested in her playing the victim or not... .I'm interested in you "getting off the corners" and into the middle of the triangle.

If she wants to be rescued... .YOU don't do it.  Express confidence in her... .the let whatever is going to happen... .happen.

The key is that you stay off the triangle.

Many times that means you don't do much... .except express confidence in her ability to solve her problems.

FF

[Dragon72]

OK, so when I go downstairs this morning and say "Good morning" to her and she deliberately doesn't answer and gives me a nasty scowl, how do I get in the middle of that triangle?

No reaction lets her get away with being very rude and (passive) aggressive. Like it's acceptable. Not what I want my son to see.

Address it, and she goes on the attack about how it's all my fault she's behaving like this. Not what I want my son to see.

[formflier]

No reaction lets her get away with being very rude and (passive) aggressive. Like it's acceptable. Not what I want my son to see.

Address it, and she goes on the attack about how it's all my fault she's behaving like this. Not what I want my son to see.

Look at the bolded... .

Marriage or any relationship is not about controlling the other person... .  You will likely have more success if you exercise healthy choices... .ask her (at appropriate times) to do those choices as well... .yet respect her choices.

Respect means not saving her from the logical and natural consequences of her behavior.

Seriously... .it's not your job to "make" her do anything... .it is your job to "Not save her".


Drama triangle

There is no drama in saying good morning.  You are not playing out any of the roles.

She says nothing... .

You tell her ... "don't be rude to me by ignoring me... .you are such a bad example to our kid"

Now... .YOU have clarified that you are the persecutor... and you have "helped" her get to her favorite place... "victim".  Perhaps she runs to her family that afternoon so she can complain and they can "rescue her".

another example

you say good morning

she says "there is nothing good about it... ."

she is "inviting" you to "rescue" her from her misery. 

If you "remembered" that you had some money and bought her some face cream she just ran out of... .even though she chewed your a$$ off the night before... .you are playing the role of rescue... and (in a related move)... .saving her from the natural and logical consequences of being an a$$ to her sole source of income.

Much better to

you:  good morning... .

her:  Nothing good about it... .

you:  Oh goodness... .some days are tough... .(pause)  you seem resilient, how do you plan to work through it (see how you handed it back to her)

her:  Work through it... .if you loved me it wouldn't be happening... .and you didn't wash the pan... .and dropped crumbs on the floor.  I need to shower and powder my nose... .now... .sweep the floor before I taunt you again.

you:  That doesn't work for me... .see you after work. (very neutral)

or something like that... .


FF