I'm someone who really has trouble synthesising Emotional Mind and Logical Mind

[icky]

So, this concept of Wise Mind is totally tripping my brain and blowing my mind 


https://bpdfamily.com/content/triggering-and-mindfulness-and-wise-mind





It was mentioned in this post:    https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=323520.0

I'm someone who really has trouble synthesising Emotional Mind and Logical Mind into the fusion of Wise Mind.

I grew up with an emotional and abusive mother and a kind, calm, rational father so I learned from my Dad to use my Logical Mind to "deal with" emotions. My dad grew up with emotional, abusive parents so he definitely trusted rational calm stuff more than emotions.

I learned this from him to a degree but could also tell that he was being hyper-vigilant about emotions and that by distancing himself from emotions generally, he was also missing out on a lot of the positive emotions. Still, my fall back position, especially in times of stress is to use my Logical Mind to deal with emotional issues, as I learned from my Dad.

With a relationship with a pwBPD, this has both been a godsend and a challenge because the rational stuff and the emotional stuff is so paradoxical and so mixed up in pwBPD. When I look at the relationship with my Logical Mind, I go "Whaaaaaa... .?" And when I look at the relationship with my Emotional Mind, I also go "Whaaaaa... .?" I need Wise Mind to get closure on it.

I read a post here earlier saying pwBPD don't want help to become better/ fixed. And yeah, that's true. They don't. And the opposite is true too - they yearn for it. But can't allow themselves to go there.

I also read a post earlier of someone saying that it was like their BPDx was drowning, and when they reached out to help, the pwBPD pulled them under water too. Same here. I've used that analogy countless times now.

It's like there's a black hole at the centre of this - sucking everything into it, endlessly - a black hole that is so hungry that nothing in the universe will fill it.

I struggle with the fact that my BPDx's childish qualities drove me nuts. The lack of responsability, the lack of emotional maturity, the lack of caring for and respecting anyone else, the selfishness, the running away, the volatility. And at the same time, it's also childlike qualitites that drew me to him - his openness, his warmth, his bubbly-ness, his enthusiasm, his creativity, his playfulness - so many characteristics that seem dulled and grey in so many adults who seem emotionally dead much of the time.

How do I let all these contradictions and paradoxes and all of the cognitive dissonance and all the conflicting emotional and rational stuff... .the contradictions between what he said and how he acted... .how do I let all that sit together, side by side, peacefully, gently, gracefully... .How do I cultivate Wise Mind and see the beauty and the brokeness of it, all at once? The poetry and the pain? The push and the pull? The love and the hate?

I used to say to him that he's like "the universe" because everything is contained in him. All the beautiful stuff, all the raw and painful stuff, the light and the dark. All there, in it's glorious messiness. He was like a force of nature. There was something wild about him.

He could never have made a relationship work. Not in a million years. And yet, like some mythical figure, that's what he was yearning for. His gravity pulled me into orbit around him.

As we were breaking up for the last time, he told me about a medieval myth, where the male figure is cursed and the female figure has to go through transformative challenges, to set him free from the spell. That's what he wanted me to be. And I yelled at him, frustrated and angry after months of emotional pain that that would be totally co-dependent and that he needed to go and do therapy instead. He wanted me to be his surrogate-parent, therapist, lover, best friend, soul mate, and mythical spell-breaker all at once. And he wanted to be allowed to act out like a kid and treat me like crap at the same time.

The mirroring/ idealisation phase is one of the most intense experiences of my entire life. We talked about how deeply we were bonding. (Tho in retrospect, I don't know what that "meant" for him. Surely the word "bonding" was just a hollow concept for him - something he aspired to, but could never reach.) I know I certainly bonded with him. Deeper than I've ever bonded with anyone other than as an infant and toddler bonding to my Dad, because he was the sane, stable, kind adult in my life. I bonded so deeply with my BPDx, that "no matter what" (and that includes this intensely painful, atrociously messy, emotionally abusive BPD experience)... .no matter what... .there's a bond deep down that will never go away.

Even if I know that for my sanity and my peace of mind, I need to stay away from him and even if I hope/ assume he's better off doing whatever he is doing without the weird turmoil of our attempted-but-failed relationship... .that deep bond will never go away.

I sometimes think that even on my death bed, one day, it's him I'll be thinking about. Wondering. Wondering if he's okay. What he's doing. Wondering "what if" he hadn't had BPD or if it had been curable.

And at the same time, knowing that he's not who I thought he was. That the person I *bonded* to isn't there. He was almost there. It's like I'm bonded to a mirage now. Which is haunting.

This has been one of the most intensely bizarre experiences of my life. It has redefined, for me, what it means to be human. What I assumed being human meant. It's been like taking a psychadelic drug and finding out more about the universe, than I ever wanted to find out.

And NONE of the tools I've been taught or have developed over the years for dealing with stuff - none of them even come close to helping me process or understand or get closure on this BPD experience.

Wise Mind is my only hope. Synthesising all this deeply paradoxical stuff into a wisdom about what it means to be human in this universe, what it means to be broken, what it means to heal, about love and loss, about magic and drowning. And about moving on.

[icky]

It's so bizarre... .During the mirroring/ idealisation phase it's like he instinctively sensed how to mimic being "the perfect partner" for me. It's like he could sense from micro-cues, who my ideal partner would be and he morphed to fulfil that role, like an actor melting into a role.

Now, I'm too much of a cynic and have too much humour to have ever thought there was a "Mr Right" out there, somewhere. I'm pragmatic and I think we humans are all a bit daft but we muddle through, trying our best. And I assume there's plenty of fish in the sea that are a decent match - someone to love and be loved by.

But meeting my BPDx and his uncanny, amazing mirroring abilities - I was stunned and gobsmacked to think that - against all odds - I must've truly met "the one". The man of my subconscious dreams. He was literally everything I've ever liked and admired in a man. All of it. And so something deep in my soul connected to this. Said yes to it. He unlocked some part of my heart that was only unlockable by "the one".

And now I have to re-trace my steps and remind myself that noo, he was not "the one", he was play-acting at being "the one". I know he didn't do this intentionally or to be mean or to disappoint me later. He was just following his instinct.

And at the same time, I experienced 18 months of being with the man of all my subconscious dreams. Because he could sense it, he could read in my face and in my eyes, "who that was". And he felt at home in that role, for a while.

That experience was both a gift and a curse. It's like someone kindled every fire and spark in my heart - made my heart feel more alive than it's ever felt - and then stuck a knife in it and walked away. I'm learning to live with both of it. With the alive heart and with the uncomfortable knife.

Completely bizarre.

[Insom]

Hi, icky!

When I look at the relationship with my Logical Mind, I go "Whaaaaaa... .?" And when I look at the relationship with my Emotional Mind, I also go "Whaaaaa... .?" I need Wise Mind to get closure on it.

  Yes!  I am right there behind you and I love the way you expressed this. 

How do I cultivate Wise Mind and see the beauty and the brokeness of it, all at once? The poetry and the pain? The push and the pull? The love and the hate?

This is a great question.  Do you have any kind of spiritual practice you participate in?  FWIW, I've found (and continue to find) help and healing in my yoga practice and community.  Yoga means "to yoke" or "to join" and there is a somatic component to it that I find very centering.  Also art.   

[Will2Power]

It's so bizarre... .During the mirroring/ idealisation phase it's like he instinctively sensed how to mimic being "the perfect partner" for me. It's like he could sense from micro-cues, who my ideal partner would be and he morphed to fulfil that role, like an actor melting into a role.

Now, I'm too much of a cynic and have too much humour to have ever thought there was a "Mr Right" out there, somewhere. I'm pragmatic and I think we humans are all a bit daft but we muddle through, trying our best. And I assume there's plenty of fish in the sea that are a decent match - someone to love and be loved by.

But meeting my BPDx and his uncanny, amazing mirroring abilities - I was stunned and gobsmacked to think that - against all odds - I must've truly met "the one". The man of my subconscious dreams. He was literally everything I've ever liked and admired in a man. All of it. And so something deep in my soul connected to this. Said yes to it. He unlocked some part of my heart that was only unlockable by "the one".

And now I have to re-trace my steps and remind myself that noo, he was not "the one", he was play-acting at being "the one". I know he didn't do this intentionally or to be mean or to disappoint me later. He was just following his instinct.

And at the same time, I experienced 18 months of being with the man of all my subconscious dreams. Because he could sense it, he could read in my face and in my eyes, "who that was". And he felt at home in that role, for a while.

That experience was both a gift and a curse. It's like someone kindled every fire and spark in my heart - made my heart feel more alive than it's ever felt - and then stuck a knife in it and walked away. I'm learning to live with both of it. With the alive heart and with the uncomfortable knife.

Completely bizarre.

Icky,

Everything you said is just wow! I’m actually in tears. I can relate to you hardcore, and you said this perfectly. It’s like someone took the words from my mind. I wonder if we dated the same man?

I often wonder about the notion of “the one”. You said you know he’s not “the one” and yet, that convincing mirroring they do makes us feel otherwise. The concept of the mirage is truly bizarre, and I can only have faith that someone else is out there that can be him, minus the BPD. I don’t know if there is, but I have to deluded myself into thinking it’s possible somewhere down the line... .

PS: Your writing style is beautiful, and it truly captures the experience of what it’s like. It’s really touched me, and validated that I’m not the only human who feels this way. I like to remember that nothing is certain, and perhaps one day, I meet someone else that makes me feel as alive as he did... .minus the abuse.

[icky]

Aww, you guys are sweet. Thank you for being able to relate. Insom I am still soo grateful for your "BPD as Muse" thread.

Will2Power, I have no idea if we dated the same guy, haha : )
It's a certainly a small world, but I dare say these are pretty universal BPD patterns  : )

I was just thinking about your question re "the one"... .I've never thought that notion of "the one" was a healthy thing to aspire to. It always struck me as too overly romantic... .Like a Cindarella style fairytale... .I've always been more of a realist and pragmatic. (Dunno if that makes sense - if I'm expressing it well. This notion that there is some "magical" Mr. Right and there is only one of him on a planet of 8 billion people... .)

In fact, when he seemed to be "the one" - that made me a bit suspicious! I had a hunch that it must be "too good to be true". The mirroring was just *such* a perfect fit, that it did have me wondering.

Do you know Jung's Anima and Animus?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anima_and_animus

That's more what it felt like... .Like he was holding up a mirror to me and I was seeing my own subconscious, but in a male form. I guess I fell in love and bonded not so much with a mirage, but with my own Animus... .

*sigh*

And while that was a weird and amazing experience, I hope it never happens again. I'd rather have someone who is a healthy 80% match than someone who is an unhealthy (seemingly) 100% match.

I want to share my life with someone who is decent and fun and kind and who has a good sense of humour and shares some of my interests. That would do just fine. I'm not hoping to meet a real life version of my Animus.

[icky]

Sorry, I'm in Europe and it's 2 am here and I'm half asleep. I think I worded it poorly but am too sleepy to work out how to word it better... .Zzzzzz

[icky]

I've been thinking more about Jung's Animus/ Anima thing.

I think this is what it boils down to for me.

Being mirrored like that - even if it is was a deeply unhealthy/ dysfunctional thing - is a key experience in my life, that I'm finding hard to get the required perspective on.

On an "inner kid" level, I cannot forget the experience, or how much it meant to me. For the first time in my life, I felt like I was HOME. It felt like everything in the universe fell into place. That's how intensely he was mirroring me. It's like everything in my subconscious was validated. Every single bit of my psychological DNA was seen and mirrored.

It was like that kitschy Aristotle quote about "love being a single soul inhabiting two bodies".

Yup, that's what mirroring does.

And yup, he had the "mirroring disease". (I think that's what I'm going to call BPD from now on, because that's the part that affected me the most.)

I'm still trying to get my head around that - that someone had a mirroring illness and it made him mirror me and that totally tripped me up.

On an emotional level, I can't let go of yearning for that. Even tho my Logical Mind knows that it was fake. Knows that it was just due to an illness. The Mirroring Disease.

Emotionally, I want that experience again - I want it back. Logically, I know that it was unhealthy and dysfunctional and the only way of getting it back is getting involved with another person that has BPD, the mirroring disease... .

But emotionally, this mirroring thing has been the equivalent of taking pure heroin. It's fused into every synapse in my brain and I was hooked from the first second.

I need to get my subconscious to see my BPDx as someone who mirrored me. My subconscious still thinks of him as "the one" - the person who is my Animus in flesh and blood.

My Logical Mind knows it ain't so. And in many ways my Emotional Mind has also accepted the end of the "relationship" (I don't call it that anymore, given that it was a dysfunctional misunderstanding).

But my Subconscious is still struggling to rearrange those experiences and to get them to fit with reality.

I no longer dream of him at night and I no longer wake up in the morning thinking about him, but I can feel him still lurking in my subconscious all the time, like a ghost.

One thing that's kind of funny is that although I think I'm a pretty decent/ nice person and I know I have some pretty good skills and my self-esteem is okay... .I'm not someone who has huuuge self-esteem or thinks that I'm wonderful, or anything. Just like most people, I struggle with my self-esteem on most days, thinking that I should do things better or that other people are probably better at stuff than I am.

So the notion that someone mirroring me - and me falling head over heels in love with that mirrored version of myself... .that is actually kind of hilarious to me... .And it seems really bizarre to fall madly and deeply and totally in love with your subconscious self... .?

Actually, this is reminding me of a kiiiind of similar experience, I've had over the years... .

Every few years or so, I would have a dream at night, where I met a man who I fell in love with like that... .A seemingly "perfect" partner who would almost read my mind and who would bypass all my usual "defences" and I would just float and melt into this calm, deep, amazing love... .The funny thing about these (totally lovely) dreams was that these men were NEVER men I'd have liked/ found attractive/ sought when I was awake. They weren't my type at all. I could tell that my subconscious was choosing them for really weird subconscious reasons in my dream. Really mystical, ephemeral reasons.

I used to adore these dreams... .I've had maybe four or five of them over the space of my life and can remember them quite vividly.

Well, this BPD mirroring was *that* experience in real life for 18 months, while awake and multiplied by 1000.

Just someone with a weird Mirroring Disease, triggering everything in my subconscious.

Gotta get my (hopefully) Wise Mind around that!

[lighthouse9]

icky,

Thank you so much for this thread. I've been cycling between being in a dark place or a pretty detached place and have been a bit angry or feeling despondent about their being no relief from "doing the right thing." I'm a logic mind person a lot of the time, which means that I can sometimes be awful at recognizing how my emotions are affecting me. Like you, I have FOO reasons for feeling like logic mind should be the "voice of reason" and end all be all solution to all problems. Being at home with my FOO is making this MUCH worse, because I'm witnessing in real time all the things that are making it hard for me to cope. And, while I sit here with my emotions and can tell it's making others uncomfortable, I'm met with more and more logical solutions by loved ones who just want the best for me but more logic isn't going to make that happen. The logical solutions feel like accusations against my feelings - and for the first time I can maybe understand how my STBX wife felt in our relationship.

Your thread reminded me to pick up my DBT workbook and read through some of the Wisemind pieces and generally workshop this skill for myself (or bring it to the board more).

The way you described your relationship sounds so much like mine - and I'm not talking about the negative stuff. The positive stuff, the mirroring disease, the mythical stuff, all of it sounds so much like my marriage (Even through the breakdown of it). When I reached out to one of my STBXw's oldest friends, she described her as "almost poetic" in how beautifully and yet destructively she behaves. She was my liminal love, the one who stood between day and night and danced with all things that couldn't be easily labeled as this or that.

I had no idea (maybe until this instant, writing this out), how much that kind of confidence in the "in between" was a mirror of what I was cultivating for myself in so many ways. I've lost that confidence (temporarily - let's say it was misplaced, lost feels too permanent). I can see how a comfort with the "in between," with everything and nothing at once would be really enticing for a person with BPD. I know she struggled with a sense of self from some of our breakup conversations, but I couldn't see it before as a person who can feel settled in all things and no things. As our relationship progressed, I became very clingy to things and very controlling about little stuff (OCD came out in full effect, never had issues with it to this degree before, even went on meds for it). I lost my spiritual confidence and blamed myself for losing the thing that attracted her. I guess what I didn't see was how much her own inability to possess spiritual confidence made me feel like I should drop mine to save hers (like the person drowning analogy you posted earlier). When she finally left, she kept saying things like "you should run" and "you should wish you never met me." This is my last image of her - drowning, telling me to save myself, and me watching from the shore fighting every instinct in me to dive in and rescue her or die with her, because living without her is unbearable.

My logic mind knew not to dive in. My emotional mind wanted to dive in. My wise mind feels like it's been gagged and tied to a chair in some back room somewhere far from anyone hearing it's voice.

Right now, my emotional mind wants to contact her so badly. I miss her. Home is hard and I need her. She always soothes me when home is hard. She understands.

We aren't technically NC, but she's in pure avoidance mode and potentially manic (my therapist suspects bipolar on top of BPD, and that this was all triggered by a manic episode or rapid cycling). Therefore, my logic mind knows that contacting her will do no good for either one of us. Logic mind is staying distracted to avoid intense emotions and might even be a little bit judgmental when feelings come up.

Your post reminded me about my wise mind and reminded me that maybe it's time to go in search of that wise mind, ungag and untie it, and let it speak.

What would it say?

Maybe something like "I feel overwhelmed and hurt right now and really want, as well as deserve, support. The support I want is not available and therefore it is unwise to seek out that support. She is not intentionally trying to hurt me, and is doing the best she can right now. I am also doing the best I can right now. I am getting through this and am capable of getting through this, even if it hurts. The fact that it hurts is actually good, to a certain extent, because it shows that I'm capable of living my truth and not burying it. I am being courageous, but I am afraid I'm getting close to my limit and slipping into depression. If I feel too depressed, I know how to ask for help and am capable of asking for help. It is not wise to worry about how I feel, but it's okay to feel how I do without judgment."

[Skip]

On an emotional level, I can't let go of yearning for that. Even tho my Logical Mind knows that it was fake. Knows that it was just due to an illness. The Mirroring Disease.

Emotionally, I want that experience again - I want it back. Logically, I know that it was unhealthy and dysfunctional and the only way of getting it back is getting involved with another person that has BPD, the mirroring disease... .

But emotionally, this mirroring thing has been the equivalent of taking pure heroin. It's fused into every synapse in my brain and I was hooked from the first second.

I need to get my subconscious to see my BPDx as someone who mirrored me. My subconscious still thinks of him as "the one" - the person who is my Animus in flesh and blood.

It's impressive that you have narrowed in on this. I encourage you to be patient and tenuous in your effort to resolve this. Do you think, in your case, the flip side of his "excessive mirroring (desire to be excepted) disease" is your co-dependency tendencies for you?

Cermak proposed the following criteria for this disorder:[27]

Continued investment of self-esteem in the ability to control both oneself and others in the face of serious adverse consequences.     Assumption of responsibility for meeting others' needs to the exclusion of acknowledging one's own.     Anxiety and boundary distortions around intimacy and separation.     Enmeshment in relationships with personality disordered, chemically dependent, other co ‐ dependent, and/or impulse ‐ disordered individuals.     Three or more of the following:         Excessive reliance on denial         Constriction of emotions (with or without dramatic outbursts)         Depression         Hypervigilance         Compulsions         Anxiety         Substance abuse         Has been (or is) the victim of recurrent physical or sexual abuse         Stress ‐ related medical illnesses         Has remained in a primary relationship with an active substance abuser for at least two years without seeking outside help.

[icky]

It's impressive that you have narrowed in on this. I encourage you to be patient and tenuous in your effort to resolve this. Do you think, in your case, the flip side of his "excessive mirroring (desire to be excepted) disease" is your co-dependency tendencies for you?

Cermak proposed the following criteria for this disorder:[27]

Continued investment of self-esteem in the ability to control both oneself and others in the face of serious adverse consequences.     Assumption of responsibility for meeting others' needs to the exclusion of acknowledging one's own.     Anxiety and boundary distortions around intimacy and separation.     Enmeshment in relationships with personality disordered, chemically dependent, other co ‐ dependent, and/or impulse ‐ disordered individuals.     Three or more of the following:         Excessive reliance on denial         Constriction of emotions (with or without dramatic outbursts)         Depression         Hypervigilance         Compulsions         Anxiety         Substance abuse         Has been (or is) the victim of recurrent physical or sexual abuse         Stress ‐ related medical illnesses         Has remained in a primary relationship with an active substance abuser for at least two years without seeking outside help.

Thanks for the input and thoughts! 

I'm *honestly* not sure.

Like many ppl, I'd say I occasionally behave more co-dependently than I would wish/ am proud of. But I've always gotten out of unhealthy relationships and always made sure that I own my stuff and that the people in my life own their stuff. I think the reason that this BPD relationship was over so quick is because I made it totally clear that I would not get involved in co-dependent stuff. That's what triggered the sharp and relatively short breakup phase. The painful stuff has been what came after I left - the confusion, the heartache, truly having been confused into thinking he was "the one".

I'm certainly someone who likes exploring boundaries. I'm an artist, so experimenting with life, the world, myself and my interactions with others is truly enriching and an exploratory adventure. I'm not religious, so I figure 80 years or so is the max I will get in this weird universe. And I'm not someone who is willing to spend that time in an office or doing the same routines over and over. I want to push the boundaries that exist. I know they exist for a reason and that's often healthy and stable, but I also love the exploration of new frontiers, both big and small.

When I met my BPDx, there were a LOT of red flags. There were plenty of times when I thought "Whoa, this is kinda a bit too freaky and co-dependent." But I stayed with it, because I didn't have clue what the mirroring was about and I was absolutely entranced and enthralled by it. I was determined to find out what it was... .To follow that lead to the end of the universe if need be, to find out what was at the source of it.

Well, surprise surprise: What is at the source of it is BPD. I followed a rainbow and didn't get a pot of gold, I got a pot of poop (and I guess a pot of knowledge). BUT - it was a really intense and interesting ride.

I'm still struggling with the aftermath of it, but I don't think I'm struggling with it because I'm codependent. I think the BPD experience is so intense, it floors anyone who is taken by surprise by it. So, I dunno.

My FOO gave me more co-dependent baggage than I'd have liked. But I've always addressed it as head-on as I could and have made sure my life is about *me*. If anything, I'm too much of a feminist to live a life of co-dependency. I think it's AMAZING to be allowed to live in 2018 as a woman - so many rights, so many options, so many freedoms, so many adventures (at least in the affluent western world). I've never been married, nor do I intend to get married. Although I adore kids, I made a conscious choice not to have kids of my own, because I knew it would be a co-dependency trap for me, given my FOO experiences. I've never made my life be about my relationships to men, tho I have loved them and we've shared our lives. I have zero problems being single - I'm totally comfortable on my own, tho I've been in good long-term relationships too, having made sure that they are relationships in which I can be independently minded and have plenty of me-time too.

So I dunno, if the co-dependency shoe fits?

Maybe I'm doing the "excessive reliance on denial" thing? 

I occasionally struggle with co-dependent traits, but I would say many ppl do without it necessarily being a disorder that shapes their life. What I will do is read up on it more. I ordered a book on it last week, because it's such a big issue re BPD, so I'm going to research it and give it plenty of thought.

But given that as soon as the mirroring stopped and turned into abusive meltdowns with MASSIVE requests for co-dependency... .given that was when I walked out, I am kind of sceptical about it. I mean, if I had wanted to be in a co-dependent relationship, then a BPD relationship with 18 months of mirroring and love bombing would have been *the* opportunity, right?

But instead I was     and left.

So I don't think that I should be looking at the questions re why *stay* in a BPD relationship, because I *didn't*. What I need to look at was why I got *involved* in a BPD mirroring thing. And I suspect that there are reasons for that, which are not so much co-dependency related.

[Skip]

Is the need for mirroring rooted in co-dependency... .need for control, approval, validation... .

[icky]

Dunno, it doesn't feel like a need.

Just like a pretty powerful drug that I need to come to terms with.

But I will research it.