What do you do when you have boundaries and other family members do not?

[Lien]

Hi all,

I'm new but I have posted a bit of my story here already. My DH and I were talking together last night about how our decision to set boundaries with my sister in law (uBPD) has impacted our relationships with other family members. After talking to my SIL in January about how we've been impacted by her behaviour and sharing our desire for a healthier relationship with certain boundaries, she has not initiated any contact. We've seen her a couple times since then (my in-laws have the family over for dinner once a month), and our practice has been medium chill at those. We love her a lot, we just can't go back to how things have been before the boundaries, and, quite frankly, the break from the drama/triangulation/continual crisis has been really nice. The cards are on the table that we love her, but the ball is in her court.

The part we're struggling with is how much pain it brings my MIL that her kids aren't talking/getting along. She's had moments where her eyes seemed to be open to the chaos and destruction, but she loves her daughter so much that she gets swept up into things very easily and is always there to rescue her. My in-laws are not aware that we think it is more serious than "just anxiety" or "being sensitive", though my FIL has had moments where he has thought out loud that it is a more serious mental health issue. She's getting married in July and this time leading up has had a lot of natural focus on her because of it, but we are starting to hear second hand of behaviours that are causing family members pain and others that are leading to trouble. We know we can't open other people's eyes, and have actively chosen not to enter into conversations about my uBPD SIL (and told my in-laws that we can't, because she was constantly triangulating), but it is so hard to watch/hear about.

How do you all handle the impact on relationships when you opt to go medium chill/LC/NC etc? So confident in our decisions directly relating to my uBPD SIL, but wondering how to be there for the rest of the family that hasn't made the same decision we have... .

[Harri]

Hi Lien. 

... .we are starting to hear second hand of behaviours that are causing family members pain and others that are leading to trouble. We know we can't open other people's eyes, and have actively chosen not to enter into conversations about my uBPD SIL (and told my in-laws that we can't, because she was constantly triangulating), but it is so hard to watch/hear about.

 
This is really all you can do.  Let the others determine their own relationship with her and manage their own issues.  It is excellent that you are not getting into the fray with the others. 

It hurts to see others being affected especially when you have information that may help them but as you said, they have to reach the point of realization on their own.  All you can do is stand steady in your decision to limit interactions and stay out of the drama.  Others may follow your lead or they may not.  You can be there for them if and when they reach the same conclusion you and your husband have reached.

Acceptance is the only way I was able to handle knowing my brother and father were still caught up in the chaos and abuse.  Sometimes it was an hourly exercise.  I wanted so badly to warn and educate them but it just would have increased the issues and possibly pushed them away. 

[Woolspinner2000]

Hi Lien,  

Harri has shared some wise words that I also agree with. While we desperately want to help others to see the  , unless they're ready to see it, no amount of coaxing will do so. You also step off the Drama Triangle when you don't try to fix things. People will see things for what they are in time. Kudos to you both for standing strong!

 
Wools

[Lien]

Thanks so much, Wools and Harri.

I think I keep wishing for some magic solution that will bring reconciliation to the family, when really it is out of my control. I find I'm fighting myself to keep to these boundaries, especially in regards to other hurting family members.

How do you all deal with things if/when your family brings up your pwBPD? It feels so cold to say I just can't hear about my uBPD SiL, but I struggle to not say anything if they do vent to me (it gets my blood boiling). How do you deal compassionately with your affected family members but not get sucked into the drama triangle? Right now I've basically been not bringing her up in conversation, but if they bring her up (she's getting married in July and my DH is in the wedding party, so it comes up) I either smile and nod or apply the same conversational strategies that I would apply directly to her (validation, addressing their feelings, etc... .)

[Harri]

Hi again Lien.

Saying you would rather not talk about the situation is not at all cold.  It may seem different than what you are used to saying but just because it feels cold does not make it so.  The fact is sometimes you may need to say that very thing.  It is okay.  Saying I wish I could help you with this but right now I can't and I am not in a good place to even hear about it is good self care.  If other family members get upset that is unfortunate but when it )in your own words) makes your blood boil to even hear about SIL, then how is that good for you and much help can you possibly give them in such a state? 

Listen when you can.  Do this when you can:

if they bring her up... .I either smile and nod or apply the same conversational strategies that I would apply directly to her (validation, addressing their feelings, etc... .)

Nothing is wrong with any of the above.  In fact, it is excellent that you have managed to find your own very healthy solutions.   

There is no magic solution that will bring about reconciliation.  The next best thing is what you outlined above. 

[No-One]

Hi Lien:

Harri and Woolspinner have given you some very good advice and info.  Sounds like you have some good strategy and boundaries already in place. You just need to stay firm.

I've seen the AA quote mentioned around the boards, "I didn't cause it, I can't cure it, and I can't control it".  Until your SIL acknowledges she has a mental issue and that she wants help, all anyone can do is manage their own boundaries and manage the way they react and interact.  Hopefully other family members can evolve to your level of understanding about your SIL, but some family members never do.

A wedding is a high stress event, so I'm thinking there will be rocky days ahead.  Another tactic to use, before saying "I don't want to talk about that", is to somehow just retreat from the conversation:  Got to visit the bathroom, got to ____, etc.  Trying to change the subject is another alternative.  You will probably have to use multiple tactics.  A given tactic might work better on one day versus another.

In some situations, staying out of the drama can equate to refusing to gossip.  Being polite, pleasant and avoiding opinions/debates will go a long way.  I'm thinking family members will soon learn that you and your husband aren't the ones to vent to, when your SIL is triggered and acts out.

We've seen her a couple times since then (my in-laws have the family over for dinner once a month), and our practice has been medium chill at those. The cards are on the table that we love her, but the ball is in her court.

When you say "the ball is in her court", what is your expectation from her?  Is there something you want her to do?   

[Woolspinner2000]

Hi again Lien, 

You've asked a very good question here:

How do you all deal with things if/when your family brings up your pwBPD? It feels so cold to say I just can't hear about my uBPD SiL, but I struggle to not say anything if they do vent to me (it gets my blood boiling). How do you deal compassionately with your affected family members but not get sucked into the drama triangle? Right now I've basically been not bringing her up in conversation, but if they bring her up (she's getting married in July and my DH is in the wedding party, so it comes up) I either smile and nod or apply the same conversational strategies that I would apply directly to her (validation, addressing their feelings, etc... .)

This is practical application at work. What do we do? How can we do it best? This process is oftentimes one step forward, one step back for a bit as you re train yourself to get away from the way you've always done it, and it's normal to struggle to get it right. My T says that one can't expect different results if we do it the same way we always did. Dance to different music!

Here are two very helpful tactics to put into practice:

Don't JADE

and

B.I.F.F.

When I sit down and try to listen to someone who makes my blood boil, I try to not engage so deeply that I cannot step away quickly or detour the conversation. I change the topic, or I may say I need to get going, need to go to the bathroom, or say: "let me get back to you on that" and steer the conversation another direction. It takes practice to walk away, but it works well and allows you to get a hold on your emotions. If you sit and smile and nod, that can be for crazy making! Plus they're used to the way you've always done it. It'll take time for them to find someone new to unload on and to realize that you've stepped off of the drama triangle.

Do you think any of these ideas may help you? What other ideas do you have?

 
Wools

[Lien]

Hi again Lien.

Saying you would rather not talk about the situation is not at all cold.  It may seem different than what you are used to saying but just because it feels cold does not make it so.  The fact is sometimes you may need to say that very thing.  It is okay.  Saying I wish I could help you with this but right now I can't and I am not in a good place to even hear about it is good self care. 

Wow, I didn't know how powerful the three words "it is okay" are! Thank you, Harri. I think deep down I know it is right and good to be responding this way, it just feels so counter-intuitive! We're still so new at this that I'm sure it will take time to break our old habits and become more comfortable in the new ones. One of the things I have to keep reminding myself of is that these boundaries don't just benefit me, but they actually are for the best for my DH's family and even my uBPD SIL.

You just need to stay firm.

Wish us luck!

A wedding is a high stress event, so I'm thinking there will be rocky days ahead. 

That it is. Our own wedding, and the engagement season leading up to it, were when we really realized that there was a problem and started to look into what it could be. Prior to that, we all just thought it was immaturity and anxiety. Now, with us wanting to stay low contact, but the wedding and prenuptial festivities upon us it adds another element to the mix. In any other circumstance I'd be celebrating with bells on, so it is very noticeable that I'm reserved.

When you say "the ball is in her court", what is your expectation from her?  Is there something you want her to do?   

That's a good question. I guess in my heart of hearts I'm hoping for reconciliation. Maybe not an apology for how she's hurt us but even an acknowledgement would be amazing. Does that happen? Do your pwBD acknowledge that they hurt you? When we're in person at the family dinners once a month, she tried pretending like nothing has happened and being all chummy, but I couldn't authentically respond the same, so I'd say the closest we're being with her is low-contact with medium-chill in person. We sent a text message to her saying we loved her and were thinking about her, like I told Speck in another thread, to show her that the door was still open and we still wanted a relationship, though we didn't ask how things were going so we could prevent being sucked in again (things are "awful" in her world right now and she's villainizing her future in-laws). She did reply with "Thanks, love you." but hasn't communicated since, so we can only assume she's choosing not to. My DH is in her wedding in July, but we haven't heard any details directly from them. We only know of the date and venue through other people. Such a tricky situation to be in! I would love for her to message directly some details or maybe even ask her brother how he's doing and say she misses him?

Dance to different music!

Here are two very helpful tactics to put into practice:

Don't JADE

and

B.I.F.F.

When I sit down and try to listen to someone who makes my blood boil, I try to not engage so deeply that I cannot step away quickly or detour the conversation. I change the topic, or I may say I need to get going, need to go to the bathroom, or say: "let me get back to you on that" and steer the conversation another direction. It takes practice to walk away, but it works well and allows you to get a hold on your emotions. If you sit and smile and nod, that can be for crazy making! Plus they're used to the way you've always done it. It'll take time for them to find someone new to unload on and to realize that you've stepped off of the drama triangle.

Do you think any of these ideas may help you? What other ideas do you have?

 
Wools

Thanks, Wools! Love that - I will keep it in mind, as my husband and I love to dance... .we're just having to learn a new one I guess. I took some time to read the links and will have to study them further, that's a great help to me! Practice, practice, practice. You're right, they are used to the way I've always done it which is *very* different from how we're being now. It feels awkward and there are some growing pains for sure, but I do look forward to the day when my husband and I can dance better in the situation and can walk away knowing we did our best.

Thanks again to everyone! I'm going to endeavor to put these things into practice in the week to come - some wedding shower prep with my MIL and then family dinner celebrating my uBPD SIL's birthday on Sunday.

[Woolspinner2000]

Looking forward to hearing your successes and those with which you struggle.  Don't put the expectation on yourself to be perfect.

I learned something this week. Part of the reason the changes feel so wrong is because our brain isn't used to them. When we do things the same as we always have, there's a certain 'normalcy' to it and any change to step out of that is scary or unsettling, even if it is good change. Our brains don't always know what to do with the new so take time to remind yourself that you are learning new things.

If you wish to practice by using some expected conversations, we can do some back and forth conversations here.

 
Wools

[No-One]

QUESTION:
When you say "the ball is in her court", what is your expectation from her?  Is there something you want her to do?     No-One

ANSWER:
That's a good question. I guess in my heart of hearts I'm hoping for reconciliation. Maybe not an apology for how she's hurt us but even an acknowledgement would be amazing. Does that happen? Do your pwBD acknowledge that they hurt you? When we're in person at the family dinners once a month, she tried pretending like nothing has happened and being all chummy, but I couldn't authentically respond the same, so I'd say the closest we're being with her is low-contact with medium-chill in person.

We sent a text message to her saying we loved her and were thinking about her, like I told Speck in another thread, to show her that the door was still open and we still wanted a relationship, though we didn't ask how things were going so we could prevent being sucked in again (things are "awful" in her world right now and she's villainizing her future in-laws). She did reply with "Thanks, love you." but hasn't communicated since, so we can only assume she's choosing not to. My DH is in her wedding in July, but we haven't heard any details directly from them. We only know of the date and venue through other people. Such a tricky situation to be in! I would love for her to message directly some details or maybe even ask her brother how he's doing and say she misses him?

I have had the experience of the person with BPD traits "pretending like nothing has happened".  I have read where many others have had the same experience.  I once got an "I'm sorry", but without discussing what they were sorry for or any specifics.

Like many others, the issues compound over time. It get's harder and harder to carry on as if nothing ever happened, after a chain of events. Other members here mentioned that there is "shame" involved with BPD behaviors (for the person with BPD traits).  People with BPD traits tend to lie, blame others or project their behaviors onto someone else (never their fault).  There is "shame" in admitting to their behaviors or saying they are sorry. (not likely to happen with most)

For most, the warm & fuzzy conversation to talk through the issues (from our perspective) and resolve things, will never happen.  Until a person with BPD traits can admit they have behavioral problems and is willing to get help, there is really no point to trying to talk through issues with them.

The liklihood of any lasting change is rather slim.  Things might get better for a period of time, but a new stress is around the corner for all of us.  Unless someone learns healthy stress management (coping skills), emotional management and develops a minimal degree of emotional intelligence, there will be more behavioral issues down the road.

The communication skills and strategy available on this website can help your interactions with your SIL (as well as in other areas of life).  Until she decides she has a problem and needs/wants to change, the best you can do is manage your communications and reactions to minimize the impact in your live.  It could be possible to periodically increase contact, from a LC situation.  

You can always adjust your level of contact, in accordance with her behaviors.  Inquiring about the wedding date is likely an essential inquiry to contact her about.  It's necessary information.  Inquiring about "how's it going with the future inlaws?", is something you don't want to ask about.  Perhaps there can be some neutral things to inquire about (that you know won't trigger her).  If you know things are going well with her wedding dress, maybe you politely inquire and ask her to describe it to you.  (i.e. We want to be sure we have your wedding date marked on our calendar.  Can you advise us on the date?  I'd love to hear about your wedding dress, if you'd like to share some details.  If not, I'm sure I'll enjoy being surprised and how lovely you look in it at your wedding)

I had wanted to approach my sister and talk through some of the issues, after we went NC.  Like many others, I thought I had reached a point when I just couldn't resume contact, as if nothing ever happened, after a horrible chain of events.

In a personal therapy session, I discussed possibly sending my sister a letter and asking her to get together and discuss some issues that I would mention in the letter.  I even spoke of maybe even scheduling a joint therapy session with a neutral therapist.  At first, my therapist discussed this with me as a possibility.  She suggested limiting any discussion to a couple of issues. Then, after further discussions, she said it's best to NOT confront my sister at all.  She said best to just wait until such a time that I might be ready to resume contact and perhaps just enjoy a low-key meal together in a restaurant and keep things casual and low key.  She spoke frankly and said that most of the couples who come in for joint therapy never resolve things.  She said that one person generally quits and quite often feels like they are being ganged up on.  

I think the bottom line is that we can only work together with someone to resolve issues, if we are equally able to participate and change for the better.  When one person in the mix doesn't want to work on theirself, and can't admit that they play some part in the problem, it is generally a futile exercise.

For right now, perhaps the best you can hope for is to strategize your communications with your SIL and adjust your contact level in accordance with her behaviors.  Until she can acknowledge she has issues to work on, you won't likely have a successful mutual conversation about the issues that need to be resolved for you and your husband to have a good relationship.

[YouHadMeAtHello]

Hi Lien,

Have you mentioned to your other family members that you think SIL may have BPD? 

I'm in a similar situation with my own sister.  She's getting married this month and, basically, her engagement has been chaos.  I (stupidly) thought that finally meeting Mr. Right, getting engaged, getting a dog, and being on the cusp of having the family she's always claimed she wanted would make her happy.  How wrong I was!  Instead it's been about as far from peaceful as you can imagine.

Anyway, after my sister was hospitalized I told my family I suspect she has BPD.  At that time they were very receptive to the information and most of my family read Stop Walking on Eggshells.  Of course, as the wedding draws near everyone's in "placate BPD sister" mode.  I hope that after the wedding the focus will return to setting boundaries, encouraging treatment, etc. 

For my part, I've stepped way back from my sister, just like what you describe with your SIL.  My mom hates that she doesn't have the "perfect TV show family"
 that she wants.  Uhhh, well, no, you don't get that when 2 out of 5 of your immediate family members have mental illnesses.  But, all I can do is set my boundaries and let the chips fall where they may.  I know that setting boundaries is a good thing for both me and my BPD sister.  Unfortunately, my unwillingness to deal with BPD sister has pushed a lot onto my mom and other sister.  But, just like me, they can set boundaries if they choose to.  If, instead, they let BPD sister take over all their time and energy, it's their choice.  At least now that they are aware that BPD exists and have a little knowledge of it, they can go into situations with BPD sister with their eyes at least slightly open.  They know what they'll get with BPD sister and they're okay with it. 

[Lien]

Where do I start?

Woolspinner, I love how you put that. I think you are right... .it is so different from the patterns I have become familiar with in my brain that it feels like the train is jumping the tracks, when in fact I am trying to create new tracks for my train to run on.

Thanks for the thoughtful reply, No One. My DH just received a phone call from my uBPD SIL around noon today saying that she would like to talk with us. She alluded to "making things right" and that we had spoken to her because we wanted to "move on". Not quite why we talked to her in January, but at least she's attempting to address it? I have no idea what to expect at all... .though maybe that's a good thing!

Like many others, the issues compound over time. It get's harder and harder to carry on as if nothing ever happened, after a chain of events. Other members here mentioned that there is "shame" involved with BPD behaviors (for the person with BPD traits).  People with BPD traits tend to lie, blame others or project their behaviors onto someone else (never their fault).  There is "shame" in admitting to their behaviors or saying they are sorry. (not likely to happen with most)

For most, the warm & fuzzy conversation to talk through the issues (from our perspective) and resolve things, will never happen.  Until a person with BPD traits can admit they have behavioral problems and is willing to get help, there is really no point to trying to talk through issues with them.

The liklihood of any lasting change is rather slim.  Things might get better for a period of time, but a new stress is around the corner for all of us.  Unless someone learns healthy stress management (coping skills), emotional management and develops a minimal degree of emotional intelligence, there will be more behavioral issues down the road.

We've seen that pattern of the blame game countless times with my SIL, nothing is ever her responsibility and there is always somewhere else to lay the blame. We are "lucky" in a way that she is so young (23 this Thursday), because I feel like maybe there is hope if family starts interacting with her in more healthy ways? At the very least, my DH and I have caught on relatively early and can be aware of our actions moving forward.

I guess I was hoping for that warm & fuzzy conversation... .and initially that was my reaction when I heard that she wanted to talk. But the more I thought about it, I realized some things. This weekend is her birthday celebration with the family, I'm sure to some degree or another that is motivating for her to have things all "good" with us. And she wants to do it over the phone, despite being within driving distance. And I found out today that she finally chose her bridesmaid dresses - the exact colour of her close cousin who is getting married a month later (my uBPD SIL jumped the queue and so my CIL has kept her abreast of all her decisions so that something like this would not happen... .) It gives me more pause and the reminder that as much as I want this to be a warm & fuzzy conversation, I need to keep my awareness of the patterns that have preceded it.

You can always adjust your level of contact, in accordance with her behaviors.  Inquiring about the wedding date is likely an essential inquiry to contact her about.  It's necessary information.  Inquiring about "how's it going with the future inlaws?", is something you don't want to ask about.  Perhaps there can be some neutral things to inquire about (that you know won't trigger her).  If you know things are going well with her wedding dress, maybe you politely inquire and ask her to describe it to you.  (i.e. We want to be sure we have your wedding date marked on our calendar.  Can you advise us on the date?  I'd love to hear about your wedding dress, if you'd like to share some details.  If not, I'm sure I'll enjoy being surprised and how lovely you look in it at your wedding)

Unfortunately, as I've heard through others' comments or during times when we're in the same location but not the same conversation, the whole wedding is one big trigger after another. It's so sad, really, when she's been dreaming about this for so long and has a guy that loves her so much. I'm assuming that we will end up touching on the wedding during the impending conversation because my DH is supposed to be standing up for them.

I think the bottom line is that we can only work together with someone to resolve issues, if we are equally able to participate and change for the better.  When one person in the mix doesn't want to work on theirself, and can't admit that they play some part in the problem, it is generally a futile exercise.

For right now, perhaps the best you can hope for is to strategize your communications with your SIL and adjust your contact level in accordance with her behaviors.  Until she can acknowledge she has issues to work on, you won't likely have a successful mutual conversation about the issues that need to be resolved for you and your husband to have a good relationship.

Good advice. I was reading an article today on Regret vs. Remorse and this really resonates with that. Unless she feels remorse for her actions (and not just regret that the consequences of her actions are affecting her) we won't be able to have that healthy relationship. I just hope and pray that she does recognize it now!

... .

YouHadMeAtHello, I am so sorry you are experiencing similar things! Our whole engagement was a mess due to my uBPD SIL being upset that she wasn't engaged yet (or had a good job or found an apartment etc), and now that she is engaged (with a great job and great apartment - not sure how she does it!), that I was hoping she'd be happy, too! I think the thing is, with people in general, our attitude isn't dependent on our circumstance.

Wow, I am SO glad your family was at least receptive to the suspicion that she may have BPD! The trick really is to enforce the boundaries, though, eh? Because there will always been one reason or another to placate someone with BPD... .I'm glad you're able to set your boundaries and stick with them, even if your family has not. We, unfortunately, have not talked with my in-laws about the fact that we think she may have BPD. My husband doesn't think they're ready to hear something like that, and they very well may not be. They are suspicious of counselling and psychology, and think that faith and family should be able to fix things. In an ideal world, I agree, but life isn't quite so simple. It definitely makes it trickier because then they don't quite understand the boundaries in the same way that they would if they realized.

[YouHadMeAtHello]

YouHadMeAtHello, I am so sorry you are experiencing similar things! Our whole engagement was a mess due to my uBPD SIL being upset that she wasn't engaged yet (or had a good job or found an apartment etc), and now that she is engaged (with a great job and great apartment - not sure how she does it!), that I was hoping she'd be happy, too! I think the thing is, with people in general, our attitude isn't dependent on our circumstance.

Wow, I am SO glad your family was at least receptive to the suspicion that she may have BPD! The trick really is to enforce the boundaries, though, eh? Because there will always been one reason or another to placate someone with BPD... .I'm glad you're able to set your boundaries and stick with them, even if your family has not. We, unfortunately, have not talked with my in-laws about the fact that we think she may have BPD. My husband doesn't think they're ready to hear something like that, and they very well may not be. They are suspicious of counselling and psychology, and think that faith and family should be able to fix things. In an ideal world, I agree, but life isn't quite so simple. It definitely makes it trickier because then they don't quite understand the boundaries in the same way that they would if they realized.

I agree, your in-laws need to be in the right space to accept that SIL has BPD.  In my case, my sister was hospitalized for cutting and suicide threats.  So, that forced my parents to really wake up and realize that she isn't normal and isn't just sensitive.  On paper, her life is truly perfect.  Her fiance seems to be a saint.  He has a great job and makes a ton of money, he's attractive, he's smart, successful, kind, and most of all, he puts up with BPD sister's antics.  She's talked about getting married and wanting kids all her life and she has a guy that wants that, too.  She always wanted pets and she has them, she lives in a great location, etc.  I could go on and on.  She has zero reason to feel suicidal, but she's BPD and her emotions have always been huge.  That really forced everyone around her to realize that it is more than sensitivity or stress or whatever.  So, while her hospitalization wasn't exactly a fun time, I'm glad it got people to wake up a little.  I hope it doesn't take anything that dramatic for your family to become more aware of what's going on.