Dont' Know How Much Longer I Can Do This

[Depression = 72% of members]

I am a combination this evening of so many emotions:  disgust, worry, fear, sorrow, you name it!

Today we watched our grandchild as we usually do every Thursday and Friday.  When our granddaughter goes to sleep (not biological) my son and his unBPD fiance usually give her, her tablet to watch while in bed.  She has her own, which is a kid's one.  There is another in the house that obviously does not look like a kid's one but an adult one.  Quite some time ago we saw GD4 (granddaughter 4 years old) using the adult one.  We didn't think much about it.  Then we began seeing our GS2 (grandson 2 years old) using it as well.

We got the greatest shock of our lives today while GS2 was trying to watch Daniel the Tiger, which he usually can find pretty well on there on his own.  Well, grandpa is the favorite here so he brings things to him if he can't do something or figure it out.  He brought the tablet to my husband who was quite surprised when he saw a number of nude pictures of my son's uBPD fiance on them. 

Now a lot of people would think, okay so maybe they were made for our son and it was just between the two of them.  Unfortunately no.  These were done by a professional photography studio and some in an unfamiliar bedroom (which we found was probably the man she is in the Caribbeans with now).  Many of these pictures included bondage and other weird stuff I won't go into detail of - it's too embarrassing to even write! 

My number one point is why are they not keeping this stuff away from the kids.  I did feel sorry for my son, but I'm quickly getting away from that feeling because he knows about the pictures.  He knows about this trip and who she is going with.  These pictures were worthy of a porn site - perhaps that is where her money is coming from?  She makes way too much for working at a cafe and bar.

It seems like just when you think, "she can't top this," she always manages to. 

I know there are no easy answers for any of these and I do pay attention to the tools and workshops that are on here.  I am seeing a T; first visit was just this week.  However, I am still getting shocked by this behavior.

I'm just looking to see if anyone has any feelings or opinions on this. 

Thanks,
Angie59

[Angie59]

I am a combination this evening of so many emotions:  disgust, worry, fear, sorrow, you name it!

Today we watched our grandchild as we usually do every Thursday and Friday.  When our granddaughter goes to sleep (not biological) my son and his unBPD fiance usually give her, her tablet to watch while in bed.  She has her own, which is a kid's one.  There is another in the house that obviously does not look like a kid's one but an adult one.  Quite some time ago we saw GD4 (granddaughter 4 years old) using the adult one.  We didn't think much about it.  Then we began seeing our GS2 (grandson 2 years old) using it as well.

We got the greatest shock of our lives today while GS2 was trying to watch Daniel the Tiger, which he usually can find pretty well on there on his own.  Well, grandpa is the favorite here so he brings things to him if he can't do something or figure it out.  He brought the tablet to my husband who was quite surprised when he saw a number of nude pictures of my son's uBPD fiance on them. 

Now a lot of people would think, okay so maybe they were made for our son and it was just between the two of them.  Unfortunately no.  These were done by a professional photography studio and some in an unfamiliar bedroom (which we found was probably the man she is in the Caribbeans with now).  Many of these pictures included bondage and other weird stuff I won't go into detail of - it's too embarrassing to even write! 

My number one point is why are they not keeping this stuff away from the kids.  I did feel sorry for my son, but I'm quickly getting away from that feeling because he knows about the pictures.  He knows about this trip and who she is going with.  These pictures were worthy of a porn site - perhaps that is where her money is coming from?  She makes way too much for working at a cafe and bar.

It seems like just when you think, "she can't top this," she always manages to. 

I know there are no easy answers for any of these and I do pay attention to the tools and workshops that are on here.  I am seeing a T; first visit was just this week.  However, I am still getting shocked by this behavior.

I'm just looking to see if anyone has any feelings or opinions on this. 

Thanks,
Angie59

[Speck]

Hello, Angie59:

It seems like just when you think, "she can't top this," she always manages to. 

I know there are no easy answers for any of these and I do pay attention to the tools and workshops that are on here.  I am seeing a T; first visit was just this week.  However, I am still getting shocked by this behavior.

No, there are no easy answers, I'm afraid. But, I am so glad to hear that you are seeing a therapist! This is great. I have come to view therapy as a personal investment in myself. Hopefully, you will find, in time, that counseling can help you re-frame your emotional landscape into something more manageable so that you are able to process this stuff with ease. I know that your son's uBPDgf's behaviors and actions upset you, but, with therapy, you can start to feel better, too, and I sure hope this is the case!

I did feel sorry for my son, but I'm quickly getting away from that feeling because he knows about the pictures. He knows about this trip and who she is going with.

Yes, he most likely knows about everything you've shared with us. From your vantage point, I know that what you're seeing in your son's relationship with his g/f is highly disturbing, and I would imagine that you're feeling helpless and possibly hopeless about it. I would, too. And, that's perfectly normal and understandable. Unfortunately, there's nothing that you can do about it, as this relationship is one that he has chosen. The lesson is for him to learn. It's his stuff.

But, it doesn't make it any easier for you to watch, and I'm sorry for that.


-Speck

[Harri]

Hi Angie.  

What do you hope will happen here?

He knows about this trip and who she is going with.

Yes, he does know.  So let it be Angie.  This is for him to make decisions about clearly he has decided he is okay with it.  :)ifferent strokes.

I did feel sorry for my son, but I'm quickly getting away from that feeling because he knows about the pictures.

Yes, he probably does know since it is a shared device for the adultS.  Again, different strokes.  You said several pictures were viewed.  Next time, quietly turn the device off or hit the home page button rather than look at pictures you find offensive.  Protect your sensibilities.  What he and his finace choose to do in private is their business.

Angie, your son is an adult with his own values and standards.  He has made his choices.  I understand you do not agree and that is okay.  I am however, concerned for where this will end for you.  :)o you want to be able to maintain a relationship with your son and see your grandkids?  I don't see the road you are on leading that way.  What do you hope to gain?  

[Angie59]

Thank you for the replies. Perhaps I wasn't really very clear on this point. I do understand this is his life, his morals and standards and his mistake to make. I get that.

Who is protecting these two innocent children?  This is what is really hard to see the toll it takes on them. The gs2 is calling me mom and the gd4 is wondering where her mom is all the time! Who will be their voice?

[Speck]

Who is protecting these two innocent children?

You are. And good job shutting off the device with the offending photos.

This is what is really hard to see the toll it takes on them.

I know. This is a toughie. But, you're stronger, Angie. This is where your own therapy sessions will help you the most.

The gs2 is calling me mom and the gd4 is wondering where her mom is all the time! Who will be their voice?

You may be... .until they can find their own. I wish I had a grandmother like you to protect me when I was a kid. Tag, you're it, for now.


-Speck

[Harri]

I agree with Speck that you can be their voice.  Getting so upset over things you can not control is going to have a negative impact on your ability to help those kids.  They need an adult who can see the issues without getting emotionally overwhelmed and who can also see their needs and is around to help them.  So stay in therapy and keep posting here so we can support and challenge you through this tough time.

 

[Angie59]

Thank you both Harri and Speck! You have raised some great points here.  One question though  for both of you and that is how can I be their voice? I am definitely not in a position mentally to approach my son's uBPD fiance. My son will defend her to the end. So who can I tell?

[Harri]

You tell no one.  They are doing nothing wrong Angie.  You be the support system and source of love and validation and good coping skills for the kids as they grow.  You learn about boundaries and communication strategies (which we have here for you to read and keep reading and practicing).  You teach and demonstrate those to the kids along with things like having values and respecting the opinions of others and accepting people and teaching about truth vs, lying, vs privacy.  Your son and his wife are not bad people and they are not doing harm.  they are simply doing things in a different way.  You need to be okay with that so you can be there for the kids.

[Speck]

Angie59:

So who can I tell?

You can process the episode with your therapist. That's what he/she is there for. YOU.

I agree with Harri that it's not your place to correct anything with your son or his fiance, as they are just doing their life, albeit messily.


-Speck

[Harri]

I forgot to mention that this is a normal thing for a 2 year old: 

The gs2 is calling me mom

This is a normal part of speech and language development.  It will resolve over time.  If he is still doing so at 3?  Think speech and language delay. 

[Angie59]

Thanks again for the replies.  Perhaps you didn't mean harm towards the kids, I'm not sure. 

If you did, then I have to say am in total disagreement with this.  Yelling, screaming and saying demeaning kids to me is not a sign of a good parent or one who does not cause damage to these kids.  I have already seen what happens to GD4.  It's not a pretty sight.

Perhaps the GS2 is too young yet to suffer anything, but there is a definite detachment between him and his mom even at this young age.  the GD4 verbalizes it to her and out loud.  I won't go as far as saying they are bad people, but they are doing nothing wrong?  I don't agree.

Angie59

[Angie59]

I think I might not be in the right frame of mind right now to continue posting.  Being angry and disgusted with things doesn't help me at all and I know this, but feelings are just that, feelings.  Right now I feel I want to isolate myself through this whole thing because I'm not ready to put forth the effort of having a relationship with the BP.  It's even hard to have one with my son when he is so defensive.

With that said, I think I better take a break.  When I read back on my own posts it's just a lot of going on and on with all the things the BP has done.  Getting me nowhere.

I do appreciate everyone's replies, the effort, the patience and the understanding.   

Angie59

[Harri]

We'll be here when you are ready to come back.

Be well.

[Speck]

Dealing with the behaviors of someone who has BPD is extremely maddening.

We understand.

There's no shame in taking a break from thinking about it all the time.


-Speck

[No-One]

Angie59:
It can be good to step back from emotional situations for a period of time. Many times it can set the stage to revisit things from a different perspective.  I generally draft my replies in word processing software and then cut and past into a reply.  I had the reply below drafted before you indicated you are taking a break from the website.  I'm posting it anyway.  Perhaps you might be back to read it.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I am definitely not in a position mentally to approach my son's uBPD fiance. My son will defend her to the end. So who can I tell?. . .I won't go as far as saying they are bad people, but they are doing nothing wrong?  I don't agree.  

Hi Angie59:

I can understand how frustrated you are and how difficult this is for you. Along with new events, I'm thinking you are disappointed that you weren't able to give your son's fiance the pleasant send off you considered (a hug & wishes for a good trip). I can tell that you really care about the children and want what's best for them.  It's a difficult situation.  Unfortunately, some women aren't suited to be moms, but there is nothing to stop them from bearing children and perhaps using the children as pawns in a romantic relationship.

You have to consider the pros and cons of various actions and make decisions accordingly.  Some might describe it as "decide what hill you want to die on".  Taking a radical position prematurely could perhaps cause nothing to change, other than with your access to your grandson and your son (perhaps with a No Contact situation)

In regard to your grandson, you son is there (he didn't go on a trip).  There is more apt to be an issue with his fiance's daughter, in regard to the trip and who is caring for the daughter (i.e. custody agreement and what the girl's father thinks)

At this point, I don't think you have anything that Child Protective Services (CPS) would successfully act upon (other than perhaps an obligatory investigation). Unless there is some criminal activity suitable to report to the police, CPS would be the watchdog agency for children (in the US) .

You would likely want to have a rather solid case, before making a report to CPS. You might want to research and become familiar with the type of neglect they respond to.  I'm thinking if you son is involved in your grandson's care and he makes sure your grandson is adequately cared for, his mom not being there won't likely be an issue of neglect, unless your son gets involved in a custody battle for your grandson.

You never know what the future might bring, and it's always a possibility that the wedding won't happen, or that your son divorces his fiance down the road.  Right now, just document things that happen and keep the records somewhere private and safe (date, time and what occurred).  Also, journaling things can be a good way to vent.  If you keep the documentation in an orderly fashion, there may be a day when it might benefit your grandson and son (should there ever be some court action).  (Prepare for the worst, but hope for the best)

You can make an anonymous complaint with CPS, but your son's fiance will suspect you as the reporter and likely cut you off from seeing your grandson (and possibly cause a "no contact" situation with your son as well).

If you confront his fiance, it won't go well.  It's typical, that you son defends her.  Right now, you are a positive influence for the children and there is value to them that you are in their lives.  Also, I believe you want to be in your grandson's life.
 
One point that you can approach you son on is about having some security measures on the  "adult tablet".  There should be some logon requirement that only lets your son and his fiance get into the tablet files.  :)id you inquire about that?

Hopefully, your therapist can help you navigate these difficult issues.  

[Angie59]

Hello everyone,

Here I am and said I was going to take a break.  Didn't keep that promise too well to myself!  I think it's because I'm looking for answers and trying to feel better, because I feel so lousy right now.  I think part of the problem is because I look where I shouldn't be looking.  Like on Instagram today and see the uBPD finance proudly standing on the beach with the guy she went with arm in arm.  I don't know why I keep looking!  It's like torturing myself. 

I do have a problem with anxiety and depression.  I have had it for the last 10 years and do take medication.  I am taking 1 Xanax per evening just at bedtime, but over the weekend this has increased, and I hate that.  I know it is a very addictive medication and I really want off of it completely, but I feel like someone is sticking a knife in my heart (probably something moms can really relate to, but I'm sure dads as well).  Or maybe I'm just weird and too close to my kids.

I don't want to make this long and lengthy.  I just feel so terrible and feel really lost.  It's a hard feeling to describe.

Thank you for your replies once again and than you No-One for answering my post in great length.  I did read it.  You have many good and true points.  I'm scared to have my grandson or son as NC, but I know this is a possibility.

You're right No-One, the example of what hill do you want to die on seems to fit my situation well.

Thanks again for all the  .

Hugs to all,
Angie59

[Turkish]

We see this issue a lot on the romantic boards, checking social media. The mother of my children lived with us 4 months until I could get her to leave... .she living a double life at night while I was home with D1 and S3. I tired of seeing the crap that she posted so I blocked her on Facebook.  It took her 3 weeks to figure out that I had blocked her.  I felt like saying, "why do you post that stuff? I'm 'in the room'." So to speak. I wasn't a concern to her, only her hurt, anger, and coping mechanism (her beau).

While I wanted to get as much info as I could given we were still working out custody, I decided it was healthier for me to just block her and detach myself from her dysfunction.  It definitely helped me.  What do you think?

[Feeling Better]

Hi Angie59

I have been a bystander following your threads and I would like to join in and offer you my support, I think that you have come a long way since your first post and you have received a lot of helpful advice, some of which you have managed to take on board, which is great.

I’m so sorry for your situation and I understand how difficult it must be for you, especially with the grandchildren being involved, you should be proud of yourself that you are able to act as a positive influence on them.

I feel like someone is sticking a knife in my heart (probably something moms can really relate to, but I'm sure dads as well).  Or maybe I'm just weird and too close to my kids.

I don't want to make this long and lengthy.  I just feel so terrible and feel really lost.  It's a hard feeling to describe.

As a mother of my uBPD son I can totally relate to that feeling, it does feel like someone is sticking a knife in your heart and I am sorry that you are feeling this way. You are definitely not weird and I personally do not think that you can ever be too close to your kids, as long as you recognise when it is the right time to take a step back and let them live their lives in the way that they choose.

Do you think that you are feeling lost right now because you want to ‘fix’ this situation that you find yourself in but you don’t really know how to do it?

I don’t know what you have read whilst you have been on this site, I would like to give you a link to Radical Acceptance, please forgive me if you have already read this:

Radical Acceptance

Angie, you are very wise to acknowledge the possibility of losing your son and your grandchildren if your son or even his fiancée decide to go no contact with you. It is a very real possibility and I hope with all my heart that you do not have to face that outcome  

[Panda39]

Maybe right now you could focus on being the best grandma you can be.  Stop focusing on your son and his wife and focus on the grandkids and having a good time with them. (I like the idea of giving yourself a break from what is upsetting you) Like others have said the grandkids will benefit from this time with you and your husband.

I also want to raise the idea again of having the grandkids over to your house instead of you going to theirs.  It takes you out of your son's house and all the things that trigger you there, it gives your husband a more comfortable environment for his back, and gives the grandkids a nice environment as well.  I just think you could enjoy your time with them better on your turf.

Feeling Better shared a great thread on "Radical Acceptance" and as hard as that is, I think it would be a good goal to work towards. 

Your son and his fiance are going to live their lives the way they choose to whether you agree with it or not.  You can't control what either of them do, think, or how they behave.  Accepting that they are who they are and will live the way they choose is not agreeing with their behaviors.  What it is, is a letting go of trying to control, and the frustration and anger that come with trying to control.  If you can come to radical acceptance I think you will feel better.  Radical Acceptance may not come overnight it took me a couple of years to get there.

When I learned Radical Acceptance... .
My SO's uBPDxw took their older daughter out east to get her settled in at college, and took the younger daughter with her.  Dad agreed to the trip that cut into his time with his younger daughter because he knew she wanted to send her sister off.  Then the day they were supposed to return we hear from the ex that they missed their flight due to traffic (really the traffic in Burlington Vermont on a Sunday? Must have been absolute Gridlock!   ). The old me would have been furious or worried... .D14(at the time) had school the next day, this extra day cut into her dad's time with her, or was her mom kidnapping her?  What did we do? My SO said okay let me know your new itinerary and we went back to eating our lunch.  Did we like what she did... .no, but could we change anything... .no, was it constructive for us to get angry or worry... .no.  This little incident was the turning point for me when I finally came to Radically Accept my SO's ex was going to do what she was going to do, she would have to suffer the consequences of her actions, and that my SO and I would be there to help the kids when they needed it.

Panda39

[Angie59]

Hello all!

I especially want to thank those of you who have replied to my post.  You guys are a wealth of information to me!  Sometimes this whole situation really does make me feel like I'm the one who is crazy and going off the deep end.  Thanks for your input as far as validating my feelings.

Radical acceptance is definitely something I am going to read about on the link given to me as well as trying to put it into practice in the days to come.

I appreciate and respect everyone's input on here.  It is so comforting to have people who have been in similar situations to talk to.

I don't know why I continue to check FB, Instagram, etc... .to see if I can find out more of what she is doing.  I mean I already know she is using nude photos for something other than my son because of the responses she received from them - she took screen shots of those.  I know she has cheated on him and I know she is affecting her children with her absence in the home.  What more do I really need to see?  I mean, am I trying to prove something to myself, or just trying to gain ammunition towards her if the day comes that they separate? 

It goes along with my anxiety.  Whenever there is a problem going on and making be feel bad inside, I will ruminate on it and dwell on it every waking moment.  It is exhausting and so, so hard for me to distract myself to something else.

I appreciate the comments also about being good grandparents and cherishing the time we spend with them.  If that was taken away, I think I would just dissolve on the spot!  They are my light in a dark situation.  They are such a blessing and I find it impossible to understand how their uBPD mother cannot appreciate them.  She has a wonderful family there just waiting for her to participate in being a family and instead is going out all the time and doing all this other crazy stuff. 

I really am worried about the next time we see her.  She will be home on Wednesday and we babysit on Thursday.  I don't even want to look at her at this point.

In the post by Feeling Better, you are thinking that losing our grandchildren and son and having it be NC is a good possibility.  Do you have any reasons why you are saying this?  I'm sure you do, I may just be blind to it right now.

By the way, we have already asked if the kids could come here instead of us going there.  It would be soo much better for us.  Really it would just be our GS2 because GD4 is in preschool.  They said no because they didn't want him that far away from them.  Now, my son works 30 minutes away from home (which is what a one way trip is from their house to ours), and his uBPD fiancee is interviewing for a job that is at least 45 minutes or more from their house.  Go figure!  Many, many contradictions to deal with.

[Angie59]

I can't believe I forgot to mention this in my last post.  I guess I need a reality check here because, boy, can my mind get going.  Yes, I do watch many movies and read lots of mysteries, but I'm not sure if this should be a concern or not.  It will sound like a movie for sure, one we have probably all watched before - but again, should I be concerned?  If so, what to do?

In the pictures my husband and I witnessed on the tablet I spoke of before, there were also screen shots of various conversations with my son's uBPD and others (one went by Anonymous and the other Daddyy -spelled this way).

In the one with Daddyy, she was asked if she still planned on getting her license to carry a concealed weapon.  Reply was yes.  Then, it was talk of possibly taking classes for this together.

Not long after my son and his uBPD were together, she took out a hefty life insurance policy on him. 

Feel free to laugh if you would like.  I won't be offended.  However, since I have been living in the Twiight Zone for the past 4 years with her behavior, it seems anything is possible.

Any ideas, suggestions, etc.?  Much appreciated.

Angie

[Feeling Better]

In the post by Feeling Better, you are thinking that losing our grandchildren and son and having it be NC is a good possibility.  Do you have any reasons why you are saying this?  I'm sure you do, I may just be blind to it right now.

Angie, I am just agreeing with you, reinforcing what you had previously stated, basically just highlighting that it is something that you need to be aware of, which of course you are.

[Learning2Thrive]

Any ideas, suggestions, etc.?  Much appreciated.

My suggestion is to document everything as objectively as possible then disengage from the drama. Hold on to the documentation. Some day your son may need it. Until that day comes, keep reminding yourself that the only person you can change ... .is you. The only person that can make you feel better ... .is you. Develop your boundaries. Be very kind... .especially be kind to yourself. Keep your body and mind as strong as possible. This could be a very long road and your grandchildren are in deep need of a loving, stable role model and grandmama.

[drained1996]

Feel free to laugh if you would like.  I won't be offended.  However, since I have been living in the Twiight Zone for the past 4 years with her behavior, it seems anything is possible.

More than fairly certain nobody here chuckled at that.  Your reference to the twilight zone is a familiar feeling to all of us here.  It's the fear, obligation and guilt (FOG) that gets us all caught up in the drama.  It does have the ability to make us feel crazy ourselves... .and often times makes us react in ways we normally would not.  That's what we can change... .how we react to these situations we are forced to face.  How do we do that?  With the lessons here, with support from a T, and of course support and suggestions from members here... .who have walked a mile in your shoes.  You're certainly not alone... .we understand you may feel embarrassed about your situation... .many of us have been there too.  We know... .
I've seen lots of great suggestions on this thread to help you get better centered to take care of yourself and do the best you can in this situation.
We know DIL is not in the best of emotional shape... .and we know your son... .probably in the FOG as well is not either.  You've noted you understand you cannot change either, but you seem to focus on the DIL and blame seems to fall her way... .very understandable... .and true.  But I'll backtrack and point out... .you know she is not healthy.  :)o you think focusing on that is going to make her better?  I know you know the answer.  I'm just writing it out for you to see.
I myself was in a toxic relationship with a BPD not exactly like, but much like your son.  I wasn't in a healthy place, and I allowed her the ability to have that control.   Until I made my own choice to look after me, I was trapped.  :)on't let her or your son control you, learn and understand the situation, and work on how you can better react to issues/situations, set boundaries, keep your emotions in control, and communicate in manners that will be beneficial to you and of course your grandchildren.  Take a deep breath, slow your emotions down.  Know what you can control... .which is YOU.  Learn to do that, you will learn to feel better.
Keep sharing, you'll find plenty of support here.  BTW, anger is ok, it's part of the process.  It's ok to share that here too.  
I notice I glossed over your concern... .and I didn't mean to diminish your thoughts and feelings.  Make note of it as others have suggested about the whole situation, but try to rest your own mind from intruding into the details of what you/we see as an unhealthy relationship.  It's theirs not yours and there is little to nothing you can do to change that from my own experience. I see the dots you connected, but they seem fuzzy from what I glean... .again, the FOG makes things a lot less clear in life.    

[No-One]

Hi again Angie59:

I do have a problem with anxiety and depression.  I have had it for the last 10 years and do take medication.  I am taking 1 Xanax per evening just at bedtime, but over the weekend this has increased, and I hate that.  I know it is a very addictive medication and I really want off of it completely, but I feel like someone is sticking a knife in my heart

Your therapy sessions can serve a couple of beneficial purposes for you.  I found that interacting on the boards here (and/or just reading) can provide helpful information and serve to enhance your therapy sessions.  The communication tools (workshop lessons) and strategy offered here can be good things to discuss in therapy sessions (to check your understanding, reinforce and practice).  Also, it's very helpful to learn/reinforce stress management tools (breathing exercise, various forms of meditation, exercise, etc.). 

I empathize with your battle with anxiety and depression, as I am personally famillar with both.  Are you only using Xanax?  If you aren't on an antidepressant, that is geared towards anxiety issues, you might want to check with your doctor about trying an antidepressant.  It generally takes a couple of months to gain the full benefit, but it can help you reduce your reliance on Xanax.

You are right in being concerned about Xanax.  It has it's place, to use on occasions as needed.  (and not regularly).  If you take it every day, you will continually need to take more and more to get the desired result.  Then, with regular use, you will need to wean yourself off of it (to prevent withdrawal symptoms). 

What are you using, other than Xanax to manage your anxiety? Xanax can be a good tool, if used strategically.  It shouldn't be the only tool in your anxiety toolbox.

In the pictures my husband and I witnessed on the tablet I spoke of before, there were also screen shots of various conversations with my son's uBPD and others (one went by Anonymous and the other Daddyy -spelled this way).

In the one with Daddyy, she was asked if she still planned on getting her license to carry a concealed weapon.  Reply was yes.  Then, it was talk of possibly taking classes for this together.

Just wondering if you might be snooping a bit too much?  I can understand the situation with your grandson coming forward with the open tablet, displaying the nude photo of his fiance.  I can understand the urge to look at other content on the tablet.  At some point, it leans towards snooping.

If you discuss the screen shots with your son, it indicates you are snooping.  I'm thinking your son would likely have an issue with snooping.  Seeing too much, that you can't easily get clarified, can contribute to your anxiety.

It's easy to let your imagination run wild.  In some States, it's easy to get a conseal carry permit for a gun, in others you have to have a very good reason.  Some people, who work in businesses, that could get robbed, might be apt to have a weapon available.

It's not necessarily unusual for her to have a life insurance policy for the father of her child (with the mom being the beneficiary).  It's common, in a marriage situation, to have insurance on the main bread winner (they just aren't married yet).  You could look at the insurance, as a possible guarantee that your grandson is looked after (to include higher education), should your son die prematurely.

If you are thinking that the possible gun permit and the insurance policy might be related, I'm thinking foul play would invalidate the insurance policy. Also, best to NOT stress over whether she might use the benefits of an insurance policy for some frivilous expenditures (versus normal cost of living and care of your grandson).

Our imaginations can run wild.  Circumstances can be unavoidable to see some things, but you have to think about stumbling upon one file, versus exploring the entire file cabinet. If people aren't dilligent about protecting their privacy, we can choose to NOT look through a stack of papers on a desk or NOT search through the files on a tablet.

There is no value to worrying about things that might never happen and when you look for things that you can't get clarification or can't discuss, you can create unnecessary anxiety for yourself. 

[Angie59]

Thank each and every one of you for your replies.  Each one was very helpful.

Yes, I am a snooper. I guess it's because I'm trying to put together a puzzle since it all seems to be so odd!

Not a good reason. I see how it is causing so much anxiety.

Angir59

[drained1996]

Yes, I am a snooper. I guess it's because I'm trying to put together a puzzle since it all seems to be so odd!

It's a puzzle that cannot be solved, thus, trying will only work to exacerbate your anxiety and depression.  There is at a minimum obvious traits of a severe mental illness in the relationship with your son and dil, you cannot fix that.  I so empathize with your situation, as we all do I'm sure.  Focusing on YOU, and your grandchildren seems the best thing you can do for everyone involved as previous posters have suggested.  That entails learning how to best interact, communicate, and set healthy boundaries with your son and dil.  Snooping... no... .it's not about them, it's about YOU, your husband and grandchildren.  Learning how to better cope through therapy and educating yourself here with posting and getting feedback, and the lessons provided will also be the best way to also help your son.  An unhealthy YOU cannot expect to healthily facilitate your own desires.  It will get better with education, understanding and effort... .all of which will lead to a more healthy YOU!  

[No-One]

Yes, I am a snooper. I guess it's because I'm trying to put together a puzzle since it all seems to be so odd!

Angie59:
I think that most of us here can relate to our unique quest to figure out the puzzling behaviors.  Each of our situations is a little different.  Some people have a loved one who cuts or has suicidal ideations, others engage in risky and impulsive behaviors, while some others may be the scapegoat for someone who appears to be respected and revered in their work or church community.  Most people never have a close relationship with someone with a personality disorder, so it can be very difficult to understand it yourself and for others to understand what you are dealing with.

I have to admit that it took me some time to understand behaviors such as "splitting" (all good or all bad) and "projection"  (assigning your behaviors to others, i.e. the person with BPD lies, but they accuse the other person of that behavior).  

It's a baffling journey for most of us.  If you read enough posts, you will even find an occasional person who is a therapist, or has an advanced psychological degree and is struggling to get a handle on what's going on with a difficult and/or high-conflict person in their life.

In your situation, you are likely trying to understand your son's fiance and then try to make sense out of why you son is in the relationship.  Your son may have co-dependent tendencies and/or be a rescuer.  At some point, when he's ready, he may need some counseling and support.  Until your son can recognize and admit that he has a problematic relationship with his fiance, there isn't much you can do to convince him that he deserves a better wife.

I agree with Drained1966 - you need to take care of yourself and manage your anxiety in the best/most healthy way possible.  :)ifferent BPD traits/behaviors may surface over time.  Take it a step at a time.  There may be new pieces of the puzzle to understand.  Just keep in mind that others are here to help you understand and deal with the puzzle pieces.

Not to be redundant, but repetition can help us learn (I know it does for me).  Stay focused on taking care of you, set and maintain personal boundaries, learn and practice the communication skills from the workshops/lessons here.  Everything takes practice.  The more you set and maintain boundaries, use strategic communication skills and manage your reactions, the more comfortable and natural you will feel with those skills.  These skills will help reduce your anxiety.  

Remember the AA saying:  "I didn't cause it, I can't control it and I can't cure it".  All you can do is practice good/healthy self-care and manage your personal interactions and reactions.  I can understand how hard it must be for your right now, but it can get better for you (You have no power to change others and others won't change until they can admit they have a problem and want to work on it).

Hopefully, discussing some of these things during your therapy sessions can be helpful for you.  You may just need to vent for awhile, during sessions.  At some point, it can be strategic to make some notes before each session.  Set some personal goals and perhaps draft out a rather loose agenda for what you want to cover for a given session.  You don't want to approach it with a strict agenda, but having some goals and target to hit during most sessions can help you get more out of the sessions.  Maybe you target part of the session for free-form talking and then part of the therapy session for various issues:  i.e. anxiety management, boundaries, radical acceptance and various communication skills from the lessons.

Take care of yourself and do something to reduce your stress today.  I like to occasionally have a warm bath with epsom salts and some lavender oil.  Some people add some mellow music and candles.  Try some new things to reduce stress.  

[Angie59]

Today has been really scary with the way I feel.  I lost my best buddy in the world yesterday, my dog, having to have him put down.  It's hard to go to bed at night, wake up in the morning, sit and watch TV, go outside, or do anything because he would never let me get far from his sight!  I never thought things would be so different, but they are.

I talked to my son yesterday who has the uBPD fiance and I only hit on the subject of his fiance about sitting down and talking with her, just one on one to come from the heart and use the tools I have read here - to show her that I really want to understand who she is and what her thoughts and feelings are, how she sees things, etc... .  What I want is a close relationship with her so we can all do things together and have some fun instead of feeling like I'm going to a funeral every time I go there.  Having more time together and celebrating different holidays, etc together.  Being a real family.  From my son all I got was more defense for her - no understanding toward me - nothing.

We had just talked (her, myself and husband) before she left for her trip about how her son and her made a "compromise."  Don't think this was much of a compromise but it was she went on her trip and then they would plan a trip to Florida in September or October where part of our family lives.  Just yesterday she was trying to change it by doing a train ride across the country that would be much cheaper and "let's do this instead of Florida." 

Today for me is a day of not anxiety, not anger, but deep depression.  I hate getting into a hole like this (I was in one was before and it is not a good place to be), but I think I have come to the conclusion perhaps I should slowly disassociate myself from both of them.  It is causing me way to much pain and sadness.  Something comes up just about every week.  It's been 4 years now and I think my mind, body and soul have had enough. 

Any thoughts about feeling this way?

Angie59

[Turkish]

Sorry about your fur baby Angie... .

Internal anger and conflict often arises when what we want butts up against what is possible.  A close relationship may or may not be possible.  Is there a Switzerland Option? Friendly but neutral.

[Learning2Thrive]

Please read and consider this below article (excerpted from the resources section). Again, the article is written from the perspective of a romantic relationship but... .it’s not difficult to see it has applications toward the parent/grown child relationship. You are angry and depressed as you begin accepting that your relationship with your son and his fiancé is not going to be anything like the dreams you had for the future for all of you... .and no amount of trying to understand on your part will fix it to make your dream possible. You are grieving your dream.
————

Anger and Depression
Elisabeth Kübler-Ross, MD., the author of the groundbreaking book On Death and Dying (1969), proposed that there are five stages of grief that individuals facing their own deaths experiences: Denial, Anger, Bargaining, Depression, and Acceptance. In her book, The Journey from Abandonment to Healing, Susan Anderson DCSW suggests that the grieving of a primary relationship goes through similar stages.

Anderson suggests that the grief from unrequited love is different from other types of bereavement in its ability to leave residual damages to a persons self-esteem. Feeling left behind, excluded, disposable, or deemed unworthy by a loved one can precipitate a collapse of self-confidence and this can contributes to an intense depression, narcissistic wounding and shame.

Anderson DCSW suggests says that the conventional wisdom that you should try to find happiness and solace from within, may not pull you through. "The antidote the rejection" she explains, "is being around people who love you and can give you validation and support. You need to see yourself reflected in their eyes."

Anderson also says that during the mid phase of the grief cycle, individuals may turn their anger about the rejection toward themselves. The process of self-attack can range from mild self-doubt to scathing self recrimination and leave a lasting imprint on individuals’ self-worth, causing them to doubt their lovability, personality-efficacy, and attachment worthiness going forward. In addition to the above, this mental searching can be accompanied by obsessive thoughts about factors leading to the breakup, and possibilities for reuniting with the lost person.

Losing a loved one can lead to an emotional crisis severe enough to resemble a full blown major depression.

Elements of the grief cycle, such as 'feeling deserted' and a sense of personal diminishment, can be aroused by many types of loss, including when a decision to separate has been mutual rather than unilateral or when one’s mate has died.

[Learning2Thrive]

As a mom of adult children myself—and having gone through a similar situation—I submit that the loss of relationship with a living child is DEVASTATING. For me, it was more devastating than grieving the loss of hope for ever receiving validation or love from my own uNPD/sociopathic mother and the divorce from my 1st husband (mirror male version of my mother) whom I stayed married to thru 11 years of emotional and physical abuse.

Angie, letting go of your dream is extremely painful and will take time to heal from. But I am here to tell you, your life can be better than you ever dreamed—in a different way. If you do the work to heal.

No. It’s not fair. At all. But we each only have the hand we are dealt. The question is, how do you want to play YOUR cards? Because you can only play your cards.

Spend time healing and really loving yourself, because you ARE worthy of love and kindness. Your joy of life will return... .in a different way. And along the way, your son may learn and grow and make changes of his own that bring him back to you. Be open to possibilities but focused on your own self-care and boundaries.

Sending you lots of love, gentle hugs and smiles.

[No-One]

Angie59:
I'm so very sorry you had to put your dog down. I can understand how devastating it is for you.  It's best to NOT make any important decision right now.  You are grieving.  You can't magically take that away, by trying  to change your son and his fiance.

At some point, when you are ready, you can bring a new pet into your life.  A new pet can't replace your dog who passed, but can serve as a new companion who can bring you their unique personality, comfort and joy again.

I talked to my son yesterday who has the uBPD fiance and I only hit on the subject of his fiance about sitting down and talking with her, just one on one to come from the heart and use the tools I have read here - to show her that I really want to understand who she is and what her thoughts and feelings are, how she sees things, etc... . What I want is a close relationship with her so we can all do things together and have some fun instead of feeling like I'm going to a funeral every time I go there.  Having more time together and celebrating different holidays, etc together.  Being a real family.  From my son all I got was more defense for her - no understanding toward me - nothing.

I'm sorry you got a disappointing response from your son.  I know that is disappointing for you, but it is an expected response.  Why did you choose to approach your son, while you are dealing with the loss of your dog? Timing is important when you want to discuss issues, and it is best to approach things in small measures.  Also, I'm thinking things need to settle down for your son and his fiance after her trip.

When someone has BPD or strong BPD traits, they commonly won't admit to their bad behaviors. She is a roaring lioness and you want to change her to a domestic cat.  That's not going to happen. I'm guessing that she doesn't understand herself, her own behaviors and emotions.  She is not going to be able to honestly sit down with you and discuss her thoughts, feelings and how she sees things.

When you are anxious and depressed, it can be hard to soak up advice and information that is offered.  For many of us, we reread things to help information sink in. It could be beneficial for you to read through your threads.  A lot of good advice/information has been offered from multiple members about what's typical with someone with strong BPD traits, and what is typical for someone in your son's role.

I think I have come to the conclusion perhaps I should slowly disassociate myself from both of them.  It is causing me way to much pain and sadness.  Something comes up just about every week.  

It doesn't have to be "all or nothing", but it's wise to back off of your efforts for an "all" relationship.  There can be good times, that you will enjoy with your grandson.  Like the Kenny Rodgers song, "You got to know when to hold them, know when to fold them, know when to walk away and know when to run"  It might seem that his song was about a card game, but it was really about life.

Step back from things for now and work through your grieving process for you dog.  The relationship with your son and his fiance won't ever be the relationship you desire, but you don't have to disassociate your self from both of them. Learn to play a good card game.  :)on't set yourself up for disappointment.  You have to examine your own behaviors and actions.  Are you taking actions that are making your more anxious?  Are your expectations realistic?  Is the timing right?

How are things going with therapy?  

[Angie59]

Thank all of you once again who replied to my last message.  Each and every one brought me comfort about the loss of my dog and also wisdom about making important decisions during this difficult period.

Especially to No-One, I loved your analogy about The Gambler song.  It really is truly about life and you brought out to me the all or nothing I'm wanting.  You are right.  I want a repeat of my Italian family and upbringing.  I want all the hugs, kissing, an arm around some one for no reason, holding someone's hand while sitting on the couch just because you want to show them affection.  That may seem too much to some people, and I understand that, and I am willing to settle for less - the less I get is really not less - it is nothing at all and that causes me a great deal of pain. 

I think the conversation I was talking of with my son's uBPD was I am in so much pain now that maybe I just want to end it with my son and with his fiancee before I get hurt once again.  I had at least 10 calls (one of them being my son), from people who know about losing my dog to tell me how sorry they were because he and I were inseparable.  Not one of those was from her.  I just feel strongly that she does not like our side of the family and especially me.  So I guess it was an end it all and don't get hurt anymore than you already have over the last 4 years on top of losing my best friend.  It seems right now that it is all too much; just way too much.

Does that make any sense?  I hope so.  It's kind of hard to explain.

I'm so grateful to have all of you and the education on this board.

Angie

[Harri]

Hi Angie.  I am so sorry to hear about your dog.  It is so hard when we lose a pet.

Have you thought about No One's suggestion to talk with your doctor about an anti-depressant geared towards anxiety?  This is very important, especially now and could make a huge difference in helping you cope with the things that are going on and acceptance of the things you can not control.

Your therapist may not be able to prescribe but they can certainly make an appropriate referral.  Can you commit to at least talking with your PCP or therapist about this? 

[Angie59]

I'm sorry I did not answer this question before, I believe when No-One asked it regarding another medication besides Xanax.  It was purely an oversight on my part.

I have been prescribed Paxil as an antidepressant which also is supposed to have a calming effect to it.  I also take Xanax 1 mg 4 x per day as needed.  If I took 4 a day of those, I would be a walking Zombie or constantly sleeping.  I only take one at bedtime.  I also take Trazodone for sleep.  So medication wise, I think I'm covered.

My view on medication is that it is kind of a bandage for what is bothering you.  Although I do take my doctor's advice and use the above medications, for me it only seems to dull what I am feeling, not solve it.  That has to be done in my head.  I was tempted to take 1 Xanax the morning we had to have our dog put to sleep, but I chose not to as I felt that is only masking the pain and I must go through it. 

Since I was so close to my dog, it is really especially hard because everywhere I go, everything I do, no matter what, he was right there with me.  We were inseparable.  He went through the dying process in my arms and the pain seemed too much to bear. 

I hear your advice about not having any conversations with my son's uBPD fiancee right now or even my son about the whole ugly picture.  I guess it is sort of like my pup's situation.  So much happens that we don't understand and we cannot control it.  Welcome to life, huh? 

Angie

[Harri]

Okay, that sounds better.  No need for an apology Angie, I was just wondering if your meds needed changing or an adjustment.  Sometimes after years you need a change or an increase.  My Pdoc is upping one of mine as after about 3 years I need a bit more.  lots of people feel the way you do about taking meds.  For me and other people, we need the meds to do their work for us.   I know for me it is impossible for me to get a hold on my anxiety, which worsened after some big life changes, without the help of meds.  I still feel the anxiety it is just not out of control any more.  I don't care if it is a bandage... .I need it!     But anyway, I am glad to know you have more than just Xanax. 

About you conversation with your son and his finace.  I am glad you are putting it on hold.  You need time.  You have read the articles on communication strategies but you need practice with them  Practice with your husband, use them with friends, the grocery clerk, your mailman, but practice, get them to feel natural, build your confidence using them.  You are still too angry and distraught for a sit down with your future DIL.  Chances are she is not all that thrilled either.  Give both of you some time.  This can't be fixed NOW.

[Angie59]

Hello everyone!

Thank you Harri for your reply.  My view of medication is probably not a healthy one.  I do agree with you that if you need it, take it.  There is no shame in that at all!  Sometimes though, I would find myself wanting to take a Xanax simply to sleep awhile and give my mind a break - turn off the noise and chatter always going on in there.  It exhausts me!  So then I say to myself, no these are just for anxiety, not sleep and escape.  I am so afraid of its addictive properties.  I can take up to 4 one mg tablets a day, have never done that because it does say p.r.n. also, so I just take it when the anxiety is really bad.  I am on the maximum dose right now of Paxil which is 60 mg a day.  I'm not at all ashamed of my meds, just over-cautious, which my doc told me was a part of the anxiety disorder. 

Thank you for making your statement about my dog.  It's been very difficult but I'm sure it will get better in time.  I miss him so.

I agree with you that now is not the time to talk to my son's uBPD.  I'm not really sure, Harri, if there ever will be.  Perhaps it is something I should just simply forget about.  Any conversation of any length that I have tried in the past has never turned out well.  One big one we had was when she was 2 months pregnant with my grandson and she shut me out the remaining 7 months and then "allowed" us to come to the hospital to see the baby.  That hurt deeply. 

My son just told me last night that she really loves you and dad and our other son; she just doesn't know how to show it.  The way I see that statement is a pacifier for my son and not a true statement.  The way she acts towards us would be one of the oddest ways to show love - and this is the way she always is.  It is just one huge ball of confusion for me.  How do you love someone when you don't even want to have a conversation with them?  That sounds ridiculous to me. 

Okay, getting off track - just wanted to address my thank you about my losing my little buddy and the medication.  Sorry about that!

Angie
 

[Angie59]

Hello everyone,

I think the advice given to me regarding a conversation with my son and his uBPD fiancee was spot on.  I know I cannot (and perhaps never will) be able to sit down one on one or even with both of them and explain my feelings about everything.  So, I've made a box in my mind's eye and said - nude photos of uBPD, blonde wig, bondage photos, trips with other men, never being home except for short periods of time - all go in this box and close the lid.  My son is aware of all of these things and it is not my place to try to discuss them with him and I do realize that it is their relationship - their business. 

One thing I am struggling with, and that I don't believe belongs in that box, is the children.  I have mentioned this before, I know.  It was always a pleasure to go babysit our GS2 for 2 days a week and always great to see GD4 after she would get back from daycare.  Not so much now.  GS2 is exhibiting bad behavior - the exact kind we already have been through and are still going through with GD4.  Lots of running through the house yelling just for fun, not taking no for answer regarding doing things, throwing things when told no to something, drawing on walls with crayons and they just leave it there without cleaning it up and correcting the behavior, and even hitting you when told no.

This is no longer enjoyable.  My husband and I do correct this behavior during the time with GS2; but it does scare us because even though some of this may seem "normal" behavior for a 2-year-old (terrible 2's), this is the exact same pattern GD4 went through.  We were so concerned about her, we asked my doctor (psychiatrist) if the behavior she exhibited was "normal," and he said no it is to the extreme and she needs professional help.  When conveyed to my son what was said, and he discussed it with his uBPD fiancee, she said absolutely not to professional help and then wanted to know if I was going to call CPS on her! 

No help to my knowledge has been given to GS4, and for awhile it seemed she was getting better, but it is rearing its ugly head again and our GS2 is mimicking. 

What really disturbs me is Monday my son's uBPD had the day off.  However, GS4 was with her grandmother.  That is not in keeping with what her grandmother was always adamant about - "I will watch the kids only when you are working."  I don't know where GS2 was.  Maybe with uBPD, maybe not.  The point is, unless my son is around and they do something as a family (very rare), she cannot seem to be at home with both of her children at one time.  This concerns and disturbs me.  I am not saying all of the behaviors GD4 has exhibited but they are very disturbing, and some are exhibited towards GS2, which really scares me. 

Again, this is their relationship and their family - BUT, when it comes to children, I am afraid for them because of this behavior and lack of time and attention that their mother gives them.  She suggested that day (Monday when she had a day off) that our son bring both kids to our house that night because she had a bad day.  Well, moms and dads sometimes have bad days, and she didn't even have to work or have GD4 and maybe not even GS2 with her. 

Your thoughts, ideas, etc., are welcome. 

Thanks!
Angie

[Panda39]

In my opinion what you can do is set another example when the Grandkids are with you.  Most likely the Grandkids have inconsistent if any boundaries at home so they run-a-muck.

Again you can't tell your son and his fiancé how to parent, but you can parent in a different way when the grand kids are with you.  You can show them boundaries (children as much as they might protest like to have boundaries) and you are able to be consistent which is also something kids need.  You can teach them that their are consequences to our actions... .timeout etc. I would take every opportunity to spend time with them that you can.  

There are many adult children of BPD parents that have shared what it meant to them to spend time with other family members, friend's families, a special teacher etc. that was supportive of them. Be that person for your Grandkids show them another way.

We have a Co-Parenting Board that you might want to post on for tips working with your Grandkids.  A therapist might be able to support you in this as well as things with your son and his fiancé too.


Panda39