Treading Water...

[formflier]

  

I did recently express to the MC that I was having trouble seeing a path forward for the marriage.  

Hey... .I'm on your side... .my goal is to clarify your communications and messaging so that you have the best chance for a solid life and relationships.

What continues to puzzle me is someone expressing that there is improvement in the relationship yet at the same time having trouble seeing a path forward for the marriage.  Isn't continued improvement the way forward?

There seems to be a big gap there that reasonable people (hint... .your wife) would ask about... .and frankly would deserve a direct answer.  Especially given all the hard work and changes you seem to agree she has made.

I'll hush and listen some more... .   

FF

[mama-wolf]

What continues to puzzle me is someone expressing that there is improvement in the relationship yet at the same time having trouble seeing a path forward for the marriage.  Isn't continued improvement the way forward?

There seems to be a big gap there that reasonable people (hint... .your wife) would ask about... .and frankly would deserve a direct answer.  Especially given all the hard work and changes you seem to agree she has made.

It's a fair question, and I'm still trying to figure out the answer.  To me, the work thus far has been more a matter of us improving how we interact with each other... .our MC's current stated goal of stabilizing our family first.  Improving that stability is essential to but does not equal improving the romantic relationship (i.e. marriage), and I struggle to see any way to improve that piece for us.  I'll try to walk through that a bit... .

Physically, I'm not attracted to her anymore. That's not the only element of a romantic relationship, but it can still be an important one, especially since we're just now entering our 40s.  I  barely even want to offer or receive physical affection, and I'm sure that's at least in part due to the next point.

I just don't trust her for emotional safety anymore.  An argument could be made that I never fully did trust her for that... .being an avoidant type, it's difficult to imagine trusting anyone like that.  But I came the closest I have ever come to that with her as my wife, and whatever trust was there has been severely damaged by the emotional manipulations/abuse.

I guess the next question is: Can't that trust be rebuilt?  Can't we "build the bridges," as you put it?  And that is the crux of my work lately with my T.  I am still trying to understand within myself why that answer keeps coming up as a resounding "no."  Believe me, I keep coming back to it.  I keep beating myself up about it.  I keep questioning myself, and my feelings, and maybe I'm being unfair, and why am I so unforgiving, and maybe I have misrepresented the situation in some way with my T for her to agree with me that it's a "no"... .

But ultimately, I do not see a path for that emotional safety to be rebuilt to a level that would be needed for us to truly be spouses in the way we each need from the other.  I can't open myself up to her in the ways she craves.  Even assuming I can work my way out of my emotional burnout (which she still begrudges me for and tries to brush aside), and she manages to seek emotional support from other sources beyond me, I don't believe I can offer her the level of emotional support and empathy that she requires.  Beyond the personal impact of this, I don't think that's a healthy model to be providing our kids.

I have learned that we have had a pretty classic pursuer-distancer dynamic for a very long time.  It does a lot of damage, and I just think I'm past the point of no return when it comes to having a fulfilling marriage with her.  For my sake, and for the sake of modeling healthy behavior in front of my children, I have to continue to focus on self care,  continue working on and enforcing healthy boundaries, and establish an emotionally safe environment for me and for them.  I will continue to support uBPDw in her journey to get better herself, but that support will confined within the limits of what I need for my own well-being and what I feel is best for the kids.

So, are things improving?  Yes, in some ways... .but that mostly has to do with us getting better at avoiding a major escalation in our arguments.  A little more safety and stability.  We still struggle with that... .didn't quite manage to do it last weekend when she called me to follow up on an argument I tried to walk away from, yelling at me and cussing me out over the phone.  Then apologizing via text afterwards and hinting that she wants to hurt herself.  These episodes give me flashbacks to other times she has yelled at me (once in my face, out in public, right in front of our children), told me to "F--- off!",  turned my feelings or needs against me, attacked my relationship with my mom... .

There are also other skills we're trying to develop in identifying our own needs, understanding the others' needs, and softening how we express these things, and struggling to keep criticism and defensiveness out of that discussion (mostly from her, but I wouldn't try to suggest it's 100%).  There's still a long road ahead, regardless of the nature of the relationship that remains between us... .

mw

[formflier]

A very introspective post... .

That's good... .much of what I learned about myself led to changes in the way I approach and conduct myself in my marriage relationship.  Which helped stabilize and then improve it.


Physical attraction:  Am I correct that you were attracted to her... .and age has worn some of that off?  Again... there is a pathway here thought... right? 

There is a phrase that I can seeing from you... ."i don't see a pathway... "  Is that something from you or your T? 

It's much more often that I see people talk about a pathway and they or their partner not being willing to walk that path.

I'm bringing this up, because it's so unusual... .and it's important to communicate clearly.  Especially when discussing splitting up a family.

So... am I correct that up to this point, your MC HAS NOT focused on improving the romantic relationship.  Right?

So... .change behavior and stabilize... you have seen improvement because that has been the focus of the work... right?

I'll hush for now... .to make sure I'm on the right track... .with the right understanding.

FF

[mama-wolf]

I'm going to try to take this in sequence as best I can... .

Physical attraction:  Am I correct that you were attracted to her... .and age has worn some of that off? 

No, it's not about age.  Aging is natural, and I never expected to feel the same way physically as I did when we started dating in our mid-twenties.  It's about finally seeing more of her true self, after years of manipulation, deflection, and projection.  For me, physical attraction is about more than the body.  It still factors in the mind, strength (beyond physical strength), compassion, generosity.  And I am not saying that her "true self" is a bad person... .she is just not someone I find attractive in that way.

There is a phrase that I can seeing from you... ."i don't see a pathway... "  Is that something from you or your T? 

It's much more often that I see people talk about a pathway and they or their partner not being willing to walk that path.

I'm bringing this up, because it's so unusual

No... ."pathway" comes from me.  Like I am standing before multiple potential paths in my life, and while none of us can truly predict the future, at least knowing how I feel and knowing what I think, I don't see any of those paths resulting in the marriage being saved.  Prolonged, maybe.  Possibly even with some "good times" thrown in (of which there have already been many in the 15 years since we first started dating).  But ultimately not saved. 

And so, no... .as it relates to potentially walking a path that could prolong the marriage and maybe by some unforeseen miracle save it... .no.  My T and I agree that the likelihood of that happening is so infinitesimally small that the risks to my own mental and emotional well-being (and that of my children) make it a path I cannot travel.

And here FF, I find myself needing to give you some feedback.  You are clearly very active on these boards.  You are very responsive to posts, and open with your opinions, suggestions, etc.  I find your responses useful in prompting deeper reflection and discussion, and I have the sense that many others do as well.  At the same time, intentional or not, you can come across kinda pushy.  Your prompts, your questions, and the way you sometimes phrase things makes it feel like you think you know what is best for an individual who you do not know.

That's good... .much of what I learned about myself led to changes in the way I approach and conduct myself in my marriage relationship.  Which helped stabilize and then improve it.

This (among other responses) indicate to me that the only end goal you see worth discussing or working towards is the one that saves the marriage.  There is no real entertainment of the possibility that this is not the path that is best for the individual who has posted.  That it is not something the individual can or wants to discuss.

Speaking personally, if I was looking for advice or a nudge towards saving the marriage, I would have posted in the "Bettering the Relationship" board.  Maybe by acknowledging some conflicted feelings I still opened myself up to this nudging on the Conflicted board.  I don't really know.  But I find it counter-productive to what I was actually looking for, which is validation, understanding, and support.  In fact, the more you nudge towards improving the marriage, no matter how much and how many ways I indicate that I think it's over... .I find that rather invalidating.

... .and it's important to communicate clearly.  Especially when discussing splitting up a family.

In particular the reference to "splitting up a family" is somewhat damaging from my perspective.  My inner critic does not need a reminder that I'm contemplating this.  She is already vocal enough and does not need encouragement from this board.  She is part of the reason I am in therapy in the first place.

I do not say these things in anger.  I really wonder if you have heard this from other members of this community.  You have great insights, and you offer challenging thoughts.  I think that others on this board might benefit more from that if you tempered (what seems like) your own agenda a bit.

In the interest of being very clear, and as I had stated previously that I was inclined to do, I will move any follow-up posts about my situation to the ":)etaching" board.

mw

[formflier]

This (among other responses) indicate to me that the only end goal you see worth discussing or working towards is the one that saves the marriage.  There is no real entertainment of the possibility that this is not the path that is best for the individual who has posted.  That it is not something the individual can or wants to discuss.

Speaking personally, if I was looking for advice or a nudge towards saving the marriage, I would have posted in the "Bettering the Relationship" board.  Maybe by acknowledging some conflicted feelings I still opened myself up to this nudging on the Conflicted board.  I don't really know.  But I find it counter-productive to what I was actually looking for, which is validation, understanding, and support.  In fact, the more you nudge towards improving the marriage, no matter how much and how many ways I indicate that I think it's over... .I find that rather invalidating.
 

Hey... .this a good discussion to have about the conflicted board.  People come here because (IMO) they are not sure which way it is going to go.  Much of the time on this board is spent trying to sort out reality, taking "test drives" in different directions and seeing if momentum can be built up in one direction or another.


I'm here because (my brief answer) there is only so much one person can do.  And unless my wife (and her foo to some extent) do "real" work to heal their patterns (trying to be polite)... .those patterns will most likely repeat.

As far as my goals, I would describe my primary goals as getting people to see an "accurate" (as possible) picture of where the momentum is going in their relationships.  To step back from a "bad day" or argument... .and look for patterns.  Changing patterns.  Especially if there is a new or healthier response being tried to BPDish issues

1.  Many times people (nons) will see that they actually have a lot of power over their relationship based on what they will or won't do.  (breaking the cycle of dysfunction).  This usually gives them hope... .and builds momentum

2.  Stepping back from day to day conflict is beneficial regardless of if you "save" a relationship or terminate it.  Stepping back gives people time to reflect... .to take a more strategic view and make decisions about their relationship from a calmer place. 

Mama-wolf... .you and others are not bound to make decisions based on others' opinions of your relationship. 

That being said, if you are feeling invalidated about the direction you are heading or what you are hearing... .there are two basic reasons for that.

1. Your feelings about your relationship don't match what you are hearing or experiencing.

2. What you are hearing and experiencing in your relationship doesn't match what you are feeling.

Now... .many would say it's the same thing.  I would say it's something to reflect on.  What's the order of feelings and facts... .or facts and feelings. 

Yep... .I'm a frank guy (some would say pushy)... so... .true to form I'll be myself.

By all reports your partner is making efforts and getting positive results.  I realize there is a long way to go.  Taking a step back and looking... .where is the momentum going here?

That's really my goal.  If you want to "improve" your relationship, by all reports, the momentum is there.  I get it there is fear that it might not be enough.  Perhaps there is fear that it might be enough.

My opinion about what you "should" do really doesn't matter.  In fact, bpdfamily (and I agree) feels strongly enough about such issues, that we are not allowed to share our opinions (run or stay messages)

So, I'll support you in whatever pathway YOU decide to walk... .I think that's what most people hope for here.  That's a bit different than agreeing or disagreeing.

(Last... I know... .sometimes I use a lot of words)  Part of the conflicted board is trying to help figure out the conflicts... conflicted feelings.  To do that you and others (me included) should "shine a light" on places where there is conflict or conflicted feelings.

Mama-wolf... .best to you as you wrestle with these decisions... .either direction is not easy.   

FF