She actually mentioned divorcing. Fearing a trap.

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

Cipher - I hope this thread is going okay for what you wanted.  I'm observing that once people can identify verbal and emotional abuse and turn into survivors rather than victims - some of us just can't stay quiet.  And then we meet and hijack group discussions  wink 

It's good to have a support network who "gets it" - the rest of the world has NO idea what it's like. Especially for what looks like a strong able man living in an ideal home with a "wonderful wife and kids."  Dr Jekyll, indeed.

Sam
I'm amused that my thread has sparked a "hijack". I agree a good support network within these confines is hard to find out side of these vitual wall. Most of those that have no experiences like this have no idea what this is like. One time I spent up to 8 different sessions with a counselor before he said. "wait I think she may need to seek her own help, you are just surviving and she is verbally killing you." The first 7 sessions where him trying to get me to adapt to her needs. Not knowing the BPD aspect.

I think I have all the tools I would need to survive and make it on my own except for 1 that I would focus like a hawk on to work on. The 1 thing that allowed me to stay in this relationship in the first place. My "caretaker" mentality.  I have been asked what would I gain from staying in this.  I do not gain anything but only maintain the statuesque. I stand to gain more by leaving.  Things like independence , happiness and most of all family. I can see and sense these things on the other side. I am just lacking that "ripping the band-aide" off first step.

[Cipher13]

Cipher - I hope this thread is going okay for what you wanted.  I'm observing that once people can identify verbal and emotional abuse and turn into survivors rather than victims - some of us just can't stay quiet.  And then we meet and hijack group discussions  wink 

It's good to have a support network who "gets it" - the rest of the world has NO idea what it's like. Especially for what looks like a strong able man living in an ideal home with a "wonderful wife and kids."  Dr Jekyll, indeed.

Sam
I'm amused that my thread has sparked a "hijack". I agree a good support network within these confines is hard to find out side of these vitual wall. Most of those that have no experiences like this have no idea what this is like. One time I spent up to 8 different sessions with a counselor before he said. "wait I think she may need to seek her own help, you are just surviving and she is verbally killing you." The first 7 sessions where him trying to get me to adapt to her needs. Not knowing the BPD aspect.

I think I have all the tools I would need to survive and make it on my own except for 1 that I would focus like a hawk on to work on. The 1 thing that allowed me to stay in this relationship in the first place. My "caretaker" mentality.  I have been asked what would I gain from staying in this.  I do not gain anything but only maintain the statuesque. I stand to gain more by leaving.  Things like independence , happiness and most of all family. I can see and sense these things on the other side. I am just lacking that "ripping the band-aide" off first step.

[Cat Familiar]

For all the guys here who would like to leave their relationships, but find something holding them back, I'll add my two cents.

I put in far too many years with an extreme BPD husband who did all the bad behaviors: infidelity, financial irresponsibility, verbal and physical abuse, drug abuse, alcohol abuse.

Why did I stay?

1.  I made a commitment and I honor my word
2.  I was afraid that he'd destroy himself if I left
3.  We had ties that bound us together (animals, not children)
4.  Our finances were inextricably tied: shared business, rural property
5.  I was stubborn enough that I thought I could change him
6.  I thought I was strong enough to take whatever he could dish out
7.  I "loved" him though I never was "in love" with him
8.  I was worried he might commit suicide--similar to #2, but with more finality
9.  The force of habit
10.I didn't know how I could get out
11.I didn't want to lose mutual friends
12.I was barely making ends meet, running our business and holding an additional job (unlike him)
13.I was "too proud" to admit I had "failed"
14.The future was unknown and I was afraid
15.I thought I'd never find anyone else
16.I thought that this is what "God" wanted me to do
17.I couldn't imagine taking care of everything (land, animals, business) on my own
18.I was afraid

[Cat Familiar]

19. I thought he might try and kill me

[Dragon72]

I haven't left my wife (yet) because:
1. It might result in me being able to spend less time with our son.
2. I don't think I have enough money to finance the divorce process.
3. I am scared of her going on the counter attack, and damaging my reputation with lies in order to exact revenge.
4. I have moments of hope, when she is actually nice towards me, but then I remember what it's like 96% of the time, and that the niceness isn't anything more than she would show a stranger.  It's more like brief absences of anger.

I'm certainly not in love with her any more. I'm not sure if I even love her. I do feel for her, but it's mostly that I feel sorry for her that she's become who she is.

[Red5]

Why did we, and why do we stay... .ok, time to throw down some lyrics, .

I tied myself with wire
To let the horses run free
Playing with the fire
Until the fire played with me

The stone was semi precious
We were barely conscious
Two souls too smart to be

In the realm of certainty
Even on our wedding day
We set ourselves on fire
A girl could not deny her
Its not if I believe in love
If love believes in me
Oh believe in me

At the moment of surrender
I'm falling to my knees
I did not notice the passers by
And they did not notice me

I've been in every black hole
At the alter of a Dark star
My body s now begging
Though it's begging to get back
Begging to get back

To my heart
To the rhythm of my soul
To the rhythm of my consciousness
To the rhythm of yes
To be released from control

I was punching in the numbers at the ATM machine
I could see in the reflection
A face staring back at me

At the moment of surrender
I'm falling to my knees
I did not notice the passers by
And they did not notice me

I was speeding off the subway
Through the stations of the cross
Every eye looking every other way
Counting down till the pain will stop

At the moment of surrender
I'm falling to my knees
I did not notice the passers by
And they did not notice me

Red5

[Red5]

For all the guys here who would like to leave their relationships, but find something holding them back, I'll add my two cents.

I put in far too many years with an extreme BPD husband who did all the bad behaviors: infidelity, financial irresponsibility, verbal and physical abuse, drug abuse, alcohol abuse.

Why did I stay?

1.  I made a commitment and I honor my word
2.  I was afraid that he'd destroy himself if I left
3.  We had ties that bound us together (animals, not children)
4.  Our finances were inextricably tied: shared business, rural property
5.  I was stubborn enough that I thought I could change him
6.  I thought I was strong enough to take whatever he could dish out
7.  I "loved" him though I never was "in love" with him
8.  I was worried he might commit suicide--similar to #2, but with more finality
9.  The force of habit
10.I didn't know how I could get out
11.I didn't want to lose mutual friends
12.I was barely making ends meet, running our business and holding an additional job (unlike him)
13.I was "too proud" to admit I had "failed"
14.The future was unknown and I was afraid
15.I thought I'd never find anyone else
16.I thought that this is what "God" wanted me to do
17.I couldn't imagine taking care of everything (land, animals, business) on my own
18.I was afraid

Cat; Sounds exactly like my first marriage, .exactly !

#3 Trading Pets for Children... .
#19... .I thought I would actually die of a broken heart !

Red5

[SamwizeGamgee]

Cipher - your comments bring up something. It took a whole paradigm shift for me to recognize verbal and emotional abuse. Emotional abuse is abuse. Except that instead of controlling and hurting the body, it controls and hurts the mind (and heart).  I am used to lying when people ask how things are, even people in whom I have confided some aspect of my marriage unhappiness.  It just doesn't translate to the "non"-folk who don't "get it."

Once I dwell on that, thinking about ripping the band-aid off becomes more objective, and urgent.
I can stay married longer, since at present it has been my rational choice for the time being.  But, it's going to come down to me saving my life.

[Waddams]

I stayed way too long in multiple relationships in my life.  The main reason was fear.  The details might have been a little different in each case, exactly what I was afraid was different in each case, but it was always fear.  I was big, giant WIMP. 

That's it.  Once I uncorked my "inner a$$hole", that went away.  I had to think of it as an "inner a$$hole" initially but it really wasn't.  It was simply the courage to say "no" and stick to it.  To maintain my composure and stick to "no" in the face of whatever boundary buster got thrown at me.  And to eject people from my life when they couldn't/wouldn't respect boundaries, when they demonstrated how little the valued me or respected me, or when they had otherwise been decent folks that suddenly opened up a can of unacceptable behavior towards me.

It's fear that keeps a man in a relationship he otherwise wants to leave, plain and simple.  Call it by other names, or complicate however much you want, but in the end, it's always just fear and as a man, you have to learn to overcome that fear for your own well being.  Taking the first step is always that hardest, but once done, it always gets easier.

For Cipher - I'll only say this - you've been here a long time with no improvement, and seemingly your marriage getting worse, and you getting worse personally.  All you gotta do is take that first step, make that lawyer appointment, and then go to it.  That's it. 

[formflier]

It's fear that keeps a man in a relationship he otherwise wants to leave, plain and simple.  

I would hope we can expand on this.  Fear is neither good nor bad.  It's also a perfectly valid reason to stay in a relationship."

It depends on... .(a lot of factors).

I would suggest that we acknowledge the fear and then be disciplined to see if the "fear" is rational and if we are wise to let fear guide us.

Broadly speaking

" I don't jump off this bridge... .because I fear dying due to splatter at the bottom"  A wise and quite rational fear... .in my opinion.

"I don't leave this relationship... because this person is the only person that will ever love me... ."  Most likely not a rational fear and most likely there are some other very complicated things going on here... .other than the relationship.  

"I don't leave this relationship because I am afraid of the impact of divorce on my children... ." (full disclosure... .one of my "fears"  This is a valid fear... .I think it is debatable if it is "wise" or "rational".  I have seen how divorce impacts my nieces and nephews.  My SIL is much worse than my wife.  

Anyway... .fear is... .  We need to see that.  What we do with it?  Well... .I hope we can think that through.

Good thread... .good comments... .keep it up.

FF

[SamwizeGamgee]

Fear is quite real.  I had a lot of figuring out to do in my life a few years ago.  I realized how much fear, by this or many other names, had run my marriage behavior and attitudes.
I have overcome a lot.  I have built up some industrial strength coping mechanisms to remain calm, cool, and collected on the outside.  I also might want to have "I do not JADE" tattooed on my arm, since it needs constant reminding.  
But on the inside, I think that I'm a cauldron of DGAF.  I'm not sure how much it will take, but, my threshold for taking abuse is ultra-low now.  I have no qualms or hesitations about calmly and rationally enforcing my boundaries either.  I believe my wife must have ESP because it seems like she's on her best, best behavior a lot of the time - as though she can sense that I'm at my limit, and ready to go.  I suppose I should have spent the first 20 years of marriage pissed-off on the inside and ready to blow - because she's much nicer to me now. *
Since I'm surviving, and don't feel that I have to divorce in order to save my life, I remain married.  The primary reason right now is that when I think of divorcing I remind myself of my paycheck and I visualize having only half of it.   I like all of it.  Also, every month married is another month I can spend what would be child support money - on my children.

* which is horrible, since her dad was pretty verbally and emotionally abusive to her, so I feel like I'm just the next in a chain of abusers, or potential abusers.  But, I remind myself that I certainly didn't start this way and, unlike her dad, I don't act out.  It's sad to see that being an "a$$hole" (as Waddams might define it) was a key that reduced my suffering.

[Cipher13]

Sam

For Cipher - I'll only say this - you've been here a long time with no improvement, and seemingly your marriage getting worse, and you getting worse personally.  All you gotta do is take that first step, make that lawyer appointment, and then go to it.  That's it. 

100% right on. I am more and more there everyday. I also need to lay off the excuses, (I can leave after I finish this home improvement, after this family commitment, etc.)  I started back up with some personal therapy. When yesterday and I was told something very similar to the quote from Sam above. The therapist said he has taken account of my emotional/personal/mental status and it has deteriorated since the last meeting 9 months ago. The words he used captured it. "You are dying. You are dying inside and slowly but surely dying. You have no identity in this relationship."

I felt that way at times but to have someone witness it and tell me that is more of an eye-opener.   I have been thinking of what I need to put forth to make my exit plan. Still the 1 looming thing sits in my way. The ripping of the band-aide. Thus going to the fear we have been discussing here. In the therapy I was reminded the word I used was not fear... .it was terror. I am so afraid of conflicted confrontation I have accepted my slow means of slipping away from existence. My fadeout of life if you will. Not a pleasant thought.

[formflier]

I'll come back to the "excuses" that you need to lay off.

Perhaps best to just think them through.  For instance, I really like home improvement projects... .if you get satisfaction from that... .then why not enjoy it and wait to "rock the boat" later.

If you are waiting to get through some obligation that you can't stand anyway... .well... perhaps you need to spend time examining that excuse and see if it really should be an "excuse".

I have some big picture financial things going on that are likely going to take a year or two to play out.  Selling off some real estate, trying to get through an MBA program... .  Basically trying to simplify and profit from an overly complicated "side business" and also gain some business skill that I hope can make me marketable again (given some significant disabilities I have)

So... .there are lots of things I "value" that will likely go much better with "relative calmness".

Anyway... .good thread!

FF

[Enabler]

To some extent I probably know what I need to do, or more accurately I know what is going to happen whether I like it or not. I am no longer afraid of the potential divorce that is hanging over my head even if the axe is being dropped at a glacial pace. I am no longer affraid because I can visualise what my life might look like (with all it's variables) past D day. Maybe I have provided myself a false sense of comfort, or maybe I have just visualised a more realistic version of the future with all it's positive opportunities... .we get to find out.

In the meantime I have positive work to do outside the relationship, which I can (and could never) control. I have split my reality into a bunch of stuff I can control, a bunch of things I can influence and a bunch of things out of my control. I can positively influence a lot of things now without contributing to the divorce process which I do not want, be that reinforcing relationships with my kids such that it can weather the looming storm, develop individual relationships with them and practices which can and will continue without influence from my W. I can gain greater appreciation of time on my own, something I have not done for 20 years. I continue to work on the home and garden, because I enjoy that. My enjoyment of those tasks can be independent of the side effect of contributing to the house being potentially ready for sale should the D happen.

Being mentally independent and prepared AND EXCITED about all future realities and outcomes does not mean I need to go dating, it doesn't mean I need to check out of the relationship, it just means I sit comfortably with potential outcomes. I will not be left destitute with no access to the kids... .I will not allow that to happen, I am far far too resourceful and competent. I do not need to give unlikely outcomes much consideration, only consider how to ensure they don't happen. I am comfortable sitting among other peoples chaos because I know that I can control what I need to if I need to, when I need to. My short and medium term path is somewhat led by someone else's actions or inaction... .but that's okay, I don't need to be in control of everything, just some things. 

[SamwizeGamgee]

I agree with the confidence expressed above. As I researched divorce more, I became less fearful, but more respectful of the consequences.  So I wait and do things, things for me, things for others.  All the while only I know how close I am to hitting the eject button (even as I figure it out).