The return of Medusa

[Cromwell]

Hi Cromwell,

I have one question for you.  When you receive a text from her how do you feel?  What is your instantaneous emotional response?  Excitement, dread, fear, guilt, something in between, all of the above?  I ask this because all rationalisation aside, it is this that you need to be most aware of, as it will be this that ultimately drives your actions.  Tune in to yourself and notice what your body is telling you.  Then, and only then, think seriously about what you want to do next.  I think you will find your answer.  Notice I am talking about you here.  Not her.  Make that shift. 

Love and light x

I decided to finally text her and she responded within a few minutes. I intentionally ignored the content of the emotional text she had sent the day prior and I sent her a humorous message instead. she just mirrored it and it made me momentarily happy, reminded me of how we got on so well in terms of our shared humour. Yet, when I noticed the mirroring, it has started to make me think of a pattern I hadnt realised, her good humour was always a mirroring of my style. I cant think of anything original that she made. its hard to actually recognise this now and not previously. Sorry I didnt answer your question, the emotional response of actually seeing her text, well it comes up as "medusa" and i always already feel excited before I even read it, is probably the most accurate emotion. the not knowing how it will affect me anticipation. not knowing how it will make me feel, it is the excitement each time that is there regardless. As wicker man told me, and what is making the most sense, the excitement of playing with fire.

[Wicker Man]

Im going to try and make my peace with her, I just dont yet know how, but youve helped me the most to make me realise that there is no urgency in doing so.

I am going to sound obtuse due to repetition, but here goes... .  I would ask you to know your motivation before embarking on this endeavor.  Personally, I feel the compulsion to reach out to Dream Come True's friend to relay some of what I have learned from our relationship and since in therapy.  Valiant and altruistic no?  However, down deep I believe the driving force behind this compulsion is a desire for a connection to my lost dream.

What is more this means I still have not giving up on trying to save my Dream Come True -please note the use of 'my' here.  She is no longer mine and my watch is done. --Because she would have consumed me.

Earlier you spoke of revenge.  Living well is the only healthy revenge and living well is its own reward.  This is not to imply living well under her nose, but to simply live your life -a healthy and rewarding life. 

If You and 'The Ruler' (meaning of Medusa) could have helped each other, lead a healthy and fulfilling life together you would still be a couple.  You tried and tried hard.  Three years is a long run.

I am not a mental health care professional and my experience with BPD is antidotal -but from my point of view in leaving her you created pain which we mere neurotics could not ever hope to understand. 

Part of my attraction to Dream Come True was trying to save her from herself and a very cruel world.  Her culture is misogynistic and quite brutal toward women, so not only was I her 'knight in shining armor' (yep she said those words... .)  I was an imperialist knight -perhaps a Crusader... .  My Crusade was an attempt to save the beautiful part of her for the horrors of her tableaux and perhaps, even more so, from the demons of her childhood.  I had hoped to find my own salvation through her love -two broken people picking themselves up by their boot straps.  A wonderful and mortally flawed plan.

So to my point... .  You seem like a very good human being, so have a sit down and do some soul searching.  Why do you feel the need for further contact -how does it benefit you? 

From what you have written all she can offer you is chaos.  In a worst case scenario your attempt at closure might be enough motivation for her to believe she can recycle you, or maybe she simply starts stalking you.


Wicker Man

[Wicker Man]

reminded me of how we got on so well in terms of our shared humour. Yet, when I noticed the mirroring, it has started to make me think of a pattern I hadnt realised, her good humour was always a mirroring of my style.

Dream Come True has a wonderful sense of humor.  We would have daily video calls with her grandparents and we would spend 30 minutes laughing.  I never sensed mirroring in her humor, but then again I am not repetitive in my humor.  As soon as she taught me a new word I would figure out a way to turn it around and make her 'pay' for her gift of knowledge with laughter.

I have read many people suffering from BPD have genius IQs -mine certainly did.  Lots of processing power, just bad system software.


Wicker Man

[Skip]

my experience with my BPDex i feel has really amplified feelings of anger and vengefulness but it is quite unhealthy as the feelings go from the extreme of "hope you do actually suicide rather than talk about it", to that of "i love you so much still, ive learned that you probably didnt mean or even fully understand just how much your behaviour has hurt me, i hope one day we both get better".

well the last three months with her was an intentional period of closure i wanted to go through, i had already decided there wasnt a relationship but I just couldnt go NC at that point. I would have, but she made an attempt to charm me back in and I went along with it intentionally. It helped a huge amount. I saw her breakdown in tears and the strange thing is, all the times before I felt almost just as overwhelmed as she was, the pity kicked in, the affection kicked in, only this time I actually enjoyed it, although on the surface I consoled her in a professional almost clinical way, far different and cooler than before. my thoughts are when i remember it are along the lines are thinking

"hahaha, this sure is entertaining, guess your not so smart now afterall".

Do you remember all this?  It's not good stuff, Chrom.

We have had a lot of members come here, be very vocal, and then recycle back in (without learning the tools here) and end up back here again.

If there is unfinished business, and it certainty sounds like there is, there has to be significant change going back in.

If you're looking to entertain another round, please post on the Bettering Board. Get some help so you don't end up here (what you wrote) again. 

[Wicker Man]

So the battle field has indeed changed.

There was an old theory in mass media analysis --The medium is the message  "... .a medium affects the society in which it plays a role not only by the content delivered over the medium, but also by the characteristics of the medium itself."

In other words by changing the location of this thread its meaning and characteristics will change.  Reactivity.



Keen observation Skip.



Wicker Man

[Shawnlam]

I decided to finally text her and she responded within a few minutes. I intentionally ignored the content of the emotional text she had sent the day prior and I sent her a humorous message instead. she just mirrored it and it made me momentarily happy, reminded me of how we got on so well in terms of our shared humour. Yet, when I noticed the mirroring, it has started to make me think of a pattern I hadnt realised, her good humour was always a mirroring of my style. I cant think of anything original that she made. its hard to actually recognise this now and not previously. Sorry I didnt answer your question, the emotional response of actually seeing her text, well it comes up as "medusa" and i always already feel excited before I even read it, is probably the most accurate emotion. the not knowing how it will affect me anticipation. not knowing how it will make me feel, it is the excitement each time that is there regardless. As wicker man told me, and what is making the most sense, the excitement of playing with fire.

Crom you are scaring me here with what your doing.I get this feeling even though you know what she is like ,you will still get hurt? That feeling you get when she texts you isn’t excitement,it’s camouflaged anxiety and not healthy physically in my opinion.I truely hope you rethink this science experiment for your own safety ? Wearing flip flops in Bermuda shorts with a set of cheap gardening gloves on , with the knowledge the test tube you are holding is filled with sarine gas ,doesn’t make it any safer.

[Cromwell]

Crom you are scaring me here with what your doing.I get this feeling even though you know what she is like ,you will still get hurt? That feeling you get when she texts you isn’t excitement,it’s camouflaged anxiety and not healthy physically in my opinion.I truely hope you rethink this science experiment for your own safety ? Wearing flip flops in Bermuda shorts with a set of cheap gardening gloves on , with the knowledge the test tube you are holding is filled with sarine gas ,doesn’t make it any safer.

my experiement is that she is going on high calorie controlled diet until she finally gets sick of it.
her rations are that whatever she says, Im going to mirror it directly back, so she can get the enjoyment of looking into "nothingness".
All that I have to do besides that tiny bit of work is to count the days until she sees through the new war doctrine.
she got the NC, from what skip said, it will have had an impact.
now she got the short term buzz of feeling that its back to business as usual, and I want her to figure out for herself that ill make her a mockery of herself.
you see the problem with NC, is the fear of a recycle. there is no fear of that anymore, the r/s and i say that word tenuously is back, just that what she doesnt yet know, it wont be anything worth a f. just like she isnt.

[Skip]

Mind games are not a healthy man's style.

[once removed]

the r/s and i say that word tenuously is back, just that what she doesnt yet know, it wont be anything worth a f. just like she isnt.

honest question: is some of this stuff bravado?

the way i read it, you want her back, but youre afraid to get hurt here, and its comforting to think of this as just an experiment where you have control and arent vulnerable.

if im right, its okay (and it will help) to let your guard down and be honest. youre anonymous here and among people who get it. hey, i had fantasies of doing similar things.

ive followed your story since you got here, and i think youre a guy with a good heart, cromwell, so thats why i have a hard time believing youre going out of your way to hurt someone who has meant a great deal to you.

ive seen it before, though, and if thats really your goal, you have an opportunity to go the other way, and grow into someone bigger, better, older, smarter, wiser, and it will be with you for the rest of your life. the ones that go for revenge never learn, never heal, and they carry it into the next relationship, and the next, and the next.

[Wicker Man]

Dear Cromwell,

You have been receiving some 'tough' love on this thread.  I hope, although some of the messages are harsh you can see the intent behind them.

Personally I have noticed a change in your writer's voice, the tone of your posts since your ex has come back into your life.  If you feel there is any validity to this observation, perhaps take a moment and reflect on why this may be.

I want what is best for you -whether it is to have her as your friend, go back to your relationship, or continue your previous no contact. 

Try to find a peaceful and quiet place within yourself to figure out what it is you might want before taking any action.  The three paths open to you, which I see as, having her in your life as a friend, a relationship partner, or continue your previous no contact.  All three of these life paths will require different approaches in future discourse or the lack there of with your ex.

You first.  This includes your studies, your health, and mental wellbeing.


Sincerely,


Wicker Man

[Cromwell]

honest question: is some of this stuff bravado?

the way i read it, you want her back, but youre afraid to get hurt here, and its comforting to think of this as just an experiment where you have control and arent vulnerable.

if im right, its okay (and it will help) to let your guard down and be honest. youre anonymous here and among people who get it. hey, i had fantasies of doing similar things.

ive followed your story since you got here, and i think youre a guy with a good heart, cromwell, so thats why i have a hard time believing youre going out of your way to hurt someone who has meant a great deal to you.

ive seen it before, though, and if thats really your goal, you have an opportunity to go the other way, and grow into someone bigger, better, older, smarter, wiser, and it will be with you for the rest of your life. the ones that go for revenge never learn, never heal, and they carry it into the next relationship, and the next, and the next.

in 3 years of 99% a great relationship 1% absolute mind warping hell. If I wanted to cause her harm or get revenge I would have. In some ways I did, its just that she puts on a good facade of making out that nothing bothers her.

Its frustration and im guilty of getting stuck in that mindset, people here are the closest that can get some kind of idea of where im coming from it is an outlet.

Ive talked to my new friends about the r/s, they said they wouldnt have talked to her on the bus. Somehow im getting better and getting over it though, the impulse was there to meet her and I didnt take it, even though she is saying and behaving exactly the way that made me feel so happy during the r/s, I find myself intentionally "damping down" this, which isnt natural.

Ive taken revenge on people in the past and it felt great, I have no remorse for the kicking in of the guy she cheated on me with, theres a line for the most passive and peaceful people. touch my family or my woman im with and the concept of civilisation, compassion and christian values have been erased from my dictionary. I have a PD too and I work hard to control my own issues, in the big picture, wishing she would suicide rather than attention seek or watching her cry (in self pity, not for what shes done to anyone else), is nothing, and just what I felt at the time (even though it is dragged up 2 months later along the lines of tabloid journalism) rather than be kept in current day context.

Deep inside I cant bring myself to do anything to her, I feel guilty for things I even shouldnt. I try and rethink all the situations I had made decisions, and I keep realising that I couldnt have actually done much better than I did, yet the end result was that I was the one carrying the hurt, and most of it being her issues with the world and others she took as an outlet on me, knowing I was the only one who would allow it. I cant even explain things to her today, despite having a new opportunity to, because it threatens her to, at best make me even more enraged by how she will respond or at worst, she would unravel and dysregulate from it. So if I want the r/s to continue, it is ground hog day all over again, carrying on as if nothing had ever happened.

ive been doing well despite it all, recovered from the help of people here, i am grateful, im also happy at the moment to have her actually spoke to her and got back in contact, but I feel theres a hidden clock in the background for when the bomb goes off again, and she infects the new circle of friends ive made and starts sabotaging anything of value to me. I want her in my life in some way, but it really has to be at arms length, I think i just have this underlying anxiety that this distance is even too close.

I do read what people say here and after time it digests and makes sense. The mind games are a waste of life but I am happy for myself to at least show her on the surface that ive changed for the better even if it does mean treating her differently than I would otherwise like to. This is a newfound route to closure, I just dont know how its going to work out and how long it will take. Asides from talking about it here, she is absent from my mind for the whole day, I have to, there are other people that rely on me who didnt break my trust and way higher on the priority list. if revenge really is part of an objective, at the moment it is at the bottom of a very long "to do" list. by the time I ever get to it, I probably wont feel the same.

[Cromwell]

Dear Cromwell,

You have been receiving some 'tough' love on this thread.  I hope, although some of the messages are harsh you can see the intent behind them.

Personally I have noticed a change in your writer's voice, the tone of your posts since your ex has come back into your life.  If you feel there is any validity to this observation, perhaps take a moment and reflect on why this may be.

I want what is best for you -whether it is to have her as your friend, go back to your relationship, or continue your previous no contact. 

Try to find a peaceful and quiet place within yourself to figure out what it is you might want before taking any action.  The three paths open to you, which I see as, having her in your life as a friend, a relationship partner, or continue your previous no contact.  All three of these life paths will require different approaches in future discourse or the lack there of with your ex.

You first.  This includes your studies, your health, and mental wellbeing.


Sincerely,


Wicker Man

I appreciate people being bluntly direct, after all, they have taken the time to care to even bother doing so. it is often the only thing that works.

Irish heritage as well Wicker Man. Cant find a better friend or a worse enemy in those genes.   

I dont suffer from the dysregulation that my ex did, it is psychotic rage and it is terrifying to witness. It is like watching someone who at that moment in time, doesnt even 100% grasp that you co-exist there with them. I get the same after jagermeister. Someone needed to be in control of this r/s and if you were a fly on the wall youd realise the restraint, the patience of a saint my best friend told me at the time. I knew she was ill, and my own issues made me relate. Otherwise any right minded person wouldnt put up with that for more than 5 minutes. I did better than some of her previous r/s, for instance, didnt cut into a main artery to prove their love to her.

I know this has brought out some of the worst in me, she brings out the best and worse, I dont even know how she does it, she literally is Queen of the trolls but that other side I know is a very loving caring, ultimately very hurt person herself and if I never knew and believed that part, it would have been simple to have just continued to ignore her very existence, which I did with NC. Part of what you said about feeling guilty in leaving is a big component, I know my ex knew that she was making me ill at times and depending on what state she was in, she would do her best to remedy it or she would push on further. She could create chaos and trouble, then the next moment tell me she was praying for us (knowing she had set a rolling ball in motion against me, then regretted it).

im just scared, I know that once I get myself a bit together I will accept to meet her, I just despite all that ive learned feel completely unprepared and out of my depth about how it will go, despite everything I just dont know how to draw a line under it all, block her from my phone and close the chapter. her saying "we will be together forever" haunts me and at the same time, i want to accept it, if it meant somehow reconfiguring things from the past and basing it on building up trust and respect from scratch. A chance to change the story to something more palatable than what it ended up as.

I really have no idea anymore what the heck is going on

[once removed]

I have a PD too and I work hard to control my own issues,

about 50% of romantic partners of someone with BPD do. are you seeing a therapist?

her saying "we will be together forever" haunts me and at the same time, i want to accept it, if it meant somehow reconfiguring things from the past and basing it on building up trust and respect from scratch. A chance to change the story to something more palatable than what it ended up as.

I really have no idea anymore what the heck is going on

post on the Bettering board. learn the tools and lessons there. work to get to steady ground.

youll be armed with knowledge and foresight, and if things dont work out, i can virtually guarantee you it will make for a much smoother landing.

they work with everyone, and theyll make for healthier relationships in the future.

[Wicker Man]

I really have no idea anymore what the heck is going on

I sensed this from the change in your tone and the voice in your writing.

"we will be together forever"

Dream Come True's version was 'Always and Forever'.

I will be honest with you I still cannot fathom she is no longer in my life.  Trying to fill the countless hours we spent taking.  Filling the empty spaces is incredibly difficult. 

I dont suffer from the dysregulation that my ex did, it is psychotic rage and it is terrifying to witness. It is like watching someone who at that moment in time, doesnt even 100% grasp that you co-exist there with them. I get the same after jagermeister.

 

Dream Come True suffered from visual and auditor hallucinations, so she could disappear into herself.  I was never frighted by her rages, I knew they were driven by an all consuming fear, as was her psychotic dysregulation. (I had her by 14 inches and 100 pounds, so that helped in my 'bravery' in the face of rage) -but the hallucinations were unnerving.  I had to take a deep breath and remind myself she was still in there.

Please if you can during this turbulent time in your life stay away from the sauce and under no circumstances drink if you meet her. 

I would like to agree with once removed -see a therapist.  It helps.  My life is now a blur of therapy sessions and books on relationships.  I don't have a PD, but I have codependency at my very root.  I have grown up feeling I have broad shoulders and can accept the roll of savior with little cost to myself.  This presumption lead me to 25 years of repression which erupted claws bared and screaming in the form on an affair.

I would also like to remind you I am definitely a 'coping' model rather than the 'super man' model -not a day has gone by in which I have not only about thought about her, or grappled with the impulse to reach out to our old group of friends -'just to check on her'.  But... .as I have said before my watch is done.  My obligation is no more.

I understand utterly the 'what ifs' and the 'if onlys'.  My connection with Dream Come True was the deepest I have ever felt with another human being.  Do I wonder 'Have I spit in the eye of love?'... .Of course I do, but this is my heart speaking not my rational self.

Do I know she is drowning in life and would take me down with her?  Of course I do.  I also know when the music stopped I would have been the one left without a chair. 

She wrote me from a bar at 4am 'Remember I am young and beautiful'.  I remember reading this, thinking she was gone forever, I said to myself '... .and I am old and stupid'.  She walked through the hotel room door stumbling drunk an hour later as I was preparing to go off to work.  (As a member of the tribe, seeing the ravages of alcoholism my entire life this terrified me.  Alcohol killed both my great uncles, my grandmother, an aunt, my father succumbed, but was 'saved' by cancer... .  he couldn't drink during the treatments.  -at least I got him back for a year)

Ultimately Dream Come True and I stopped drinking for 7 months.  While drinking she had repeatedly put herself in a situation where she was in grave danger of being raped.  She could forget about us completely when she drank.

It would have been simple to have just continued to ignore her very existence, which I did with NC. Part of what you said about feeling guilty in leaving is a big component

I have never felt guilty about leaving her.  I feel sincere pity for her, but there is no guilt in me.  It was kill or be killed -there was no other rational choice to be made.  There is an acronym from computer programing KISS -Keep it simple stupid. 

You owe her nothing.  Through game theory, or social exchange theory (you pick the result is the same) you should only resume contact with your ex if it benefits you.  Your relationship had ended -which, in my opinion, ends your obligation to her.  You do not have a child with her, co-own a business, there seem to be no extenuating circumstances which would obligate you to further contact.

If you have a personal need to have her in your life then this is a different story.

You will not get a bare knuckle tough love response from me -it is not my place, what is more if you are Irish then you are stubborn as the day is long and I do not want to fuel you to prove me wrong... .  What I continue to ask you is Cui Bono?

Never but never begin actions to do her harm, because you will simply be harming yourself. 

Im just scared, I know that once I get myself a bit together I will accept to meet her.

Perhaps there is a contradiction in this statement.  Once you get yourself together -truly get yourself together, you may find you do not need to meet her.  You said she brings out the worst in you -understanding this may give you the strength to save both or you from further torment.

Nothing would feel better to me right in this moment than to send a note and say meet me at PEK (Beijing Intl.)  I will be there in 15 hours... .and nothing would do me more harm.  I could be back on the path to my destruction with a text message and a plane ticket.

I am sorry you are in such turmoil right now.  You have given me insight, solace, and a shoulder to lean on over these last few weeks.  You helped me tell my story until I have begun to feel bored through my stories repetition.  Life should not be a collection of soaring highs and crushing lows -it is addictive yes, but healthy NO.

If there is anything I can do to help just ask -I can feel the pain in your writing.

I just managed to burn soup... .  Being a codependent people pleaser does have its costs... .  What kind of a dumbass can burn soup!

Wicker Man

[Cromwell]

about 50% of romantic partners of someone with BPD do. are you seeing a therapist?

post on the Bettering board. learn the tools and lessons there. work to get to steady ground.

youll be armed with knowledge and foresight, and if things dont work out, i can virtually guarantee you it will make for a much smoother landing.

they work with everyone, and theyll make for healthier relationships in the future.

The most powerful message youve sent in the past has been "you were both not compatible". I read the words, clear and simple, yet it takes time to accept.

and as Wicker Man says, the keep it simple stupid. I find that all these layers of complexity trying to hack through of feelings and problem solving, at the basis it is clear that it isnt a r/s that did enough to make me want to stay, it was incompatible. I think thats the closure I need, it takes away this quest to "right" the "wrongs" which is really about, hoping to salvage something that actually ended early on in those 3 years. Yes I should have just walked away then, but didnt. It would have been as easy as saying "you were not the person I thought you were, we are not right for each other". Its not that I didnt know it, but I didnt want to accept it. but it helps now to keep entrenched in my mind that I wont allow this to develop again, beyond having her a friendly text with nothing to commit myself to and side stepping the impulse to serve her needs and showing her I dont expect or will not ask her to reciprocate. She tried with the 2nd text sent and ive shown her we can be in contact but she will have to go elsewhere for that sort of need fulfillment, just like I have had to go here to deal with my emotional problems.  Im not needing therapy, (and wont use these boards for it) im fine as long as im not in these types of r/s, ive got the experience to avoid them in the future thats the main thing. Thanks once removed your words have carried a lot of strength for me, they just needed to be accepted and understood properly the contentment returning and the closure on its way, its almost tangible. 

[Cromwell]

I will be honest with you I still cannot fathom she is no longer in my life.  Trying to fill the countless hours we spent taking.  Filling the empty spaces is incredibly difficult. 

It was difficult for me as well, I had an established circle of friends that had to be abandoned at the same time as going complete NC. She had infiltrated so deep into my extended life, forced herself into the center, and it was almost as if had consumed my identity in many ways. Took control. It didnt happen overnight, but it happened steadily, until you wake up one day and realise, she was sly about it. If she could unbalance my support network, it would be hard to abandon her, or so she thought. I started from scratch but the empty spaces were needed, it was like being in a hospital and needing peace and quiet, a very occasional visitor is important, but I went from having active full on social life to becoming more reliant on an xbox. Try to keep up with the cycling and sports if you feel able to, I was too fatigued mentally to do that, but the times I found the energy to was a big mood lift. Yes I thought about my ex whilst playing xbox and swimming, but I couldnt 100%, thats what is important. Just like today, Ive got a checklist of things to do, work this afternoon, exams to study for next week, a step son I need to watch over that hes not smoking cannabis on the street corners. Many heartbroken people have went on to divert that pain and achieve amazing things. I had 2 exams yesterday, and you know what frame of mind ive been, I turned my phone off, compartmentalised Medusa, crash read my textbook and got through it all listen to my music and most of all, watch this whenever I felt that urge to text https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qbYkejgeAXc and   to myself, "yellow teeth"  . Medusa I wont allow to distract me to fail my studies, my non smoking drive she gets credit for though, didnt I say that im scared to stop because the last time I commited to it was the precursor to a disastrous moment? The exact thing happened again, right on cue.

Dream Come True suffered from visual and auditor hallucinations, so she could disappear into herself.  I was never frighted by her rages, I knew they were driven by an all consuming fear, as was her psychotic dysregulation. (I had her by 14 inches and 100 pounds, so that helped in my 'bravery' in the face of rage) -but the hallucinations were unnerving.  I had to take a deep breath and remind myself she was still in there.

Please if you can during this turbulent time in your life stay away from the sauce and under no circumstances drink if you meet her. 

The problem with BPD, or lets say at least my experience with it, my ex never witnesses unseen phenonema, I think that would have been too much to me. Her psychotic rages were as if the rage had consumed her to the extent she was capable of anything. Luckily I wasnt the focus of her rage, and regardless of being physically more capable, I let her throw the scissors and plates. I have a scar from a fragment of coffee cup that exploded nearby. I think she knew that destroying my kitchen was more hurtful than what she could do to me physically. I got my kitchen back, cooking always was and is a big part of my therapy, however much I want to revisit those times I taught her how to bake and saw her happiness, I need and enjoy harmony and cant cook when im stressed. Sorry about your soup.

She wrote me from a bar at 4am 'Remember I am young and beautiful'.  I remember reading this, thinking she was gone forever, I said to myself '... .and I am old and stupid'.  She walked through the hotel room door stumbling drunk an hour later as I was preparing to go off to work.  (As a member of the tribe, seeing the ravages of alcoholism my entire life this terrified me.  Alcohol killed both my great uncles, my grandmother, an aunt, my father succumbed, but was 'saved' by cancer... .  he couldn't drink during the treatments.  -at least I got him back for a year)

Ultimately Dream Come True and I stopped drinking for 7 months.  While drinking she had repeatedly put herself in a situation where she was in grave danger of being raped.  She could forget about us completely when she drank.

alcohol was the conduit towards the cheating as well as to her unleashing the cruel things she said. Rather than openly apologise she tried to do everything but, such as "I got so terribly drunk that night", I once told her thats the thing about alcohol, its a convenient excuse for anything the next day. Alcohol didnt ruin the r/s, just like the gun doesnt kill people by itself (yes, thank god you didnt take yours to that gun range).

I have never felt guilty about leaving her.  I feel sincere pity for her, but there is no guilt in me.  It was kill or be killed -there was no other rational choice to be made.  There is an acronym from computer programing KISS -Keep it simple stupid. 

Apologies for that, Ive probably read someone else say it. I feel the guilt because I took on the task of rescuing her then gave up to save myself. When I started to give up before, she would tell me how much she needed me and not to let her go. So id resume the task again.

You owe her nothing.  Through game theory, or social exchange theory (you pick the result is the same) you should only resume contact with your ex if it benefits you.  Your relationship had ended -which, in my opinion, ends your obligation to her.  You do not have a child with her, co-own a business, there seem to be no extenuating circumstances which would obligate you to further contact.

If you have a personal need to have her in your life then this is a different story.

Im glad you mentioned all that because this was a big part of the NC, I sabotaged the marriage and the wish for a child. It wasnt out of feeling engulfed, which ive experienced before in previous r/s, it was because I didnt want to end up where I am now, plus those albatrosses around my neck. a wise move. Medusa in my phone book has became soothing in some way, it is leading to closure. She never texted or called at all yesterday, when we were together, by this stage of having not responded my phone would have went beserk. Im enjoying that im getting something more towards what I wanted from in the very beginning, theres nothing she can do to cause hurt anymore, the pressure is gone on both sides. She put me in a good mood with her homour and has been sweet and friendly, but ive not allowed myself to be drawn in.

The reason for my anger surfacing again, is because I realised that she was too accepting to be 'friends' again. It signals to me that whilst she wont ever admit to the things she has done, she acknowledges that I ghosted her for good reason. Otherwise she would have rightfully told me to f off. Which is what youd expect.

You will not get a bare knuckle tough love response from me -it is not my place, what is more if you are Irish then you are stubborn as the day is long and I do not want to fuel you to prove me wrong... .  What I continue to ask you is Cui Bono?

Never but never begin actions to do her harm, because you will simply be harming yourself. 

My ex practically begged me to "punish" her throughout the r/s. She couldnt comprehend that all the things she did I tolerated. Its why I feel guilty about going the NC route. but that approach worked, i showed her that I can, did and will walk away. It was the only sensible and mature option. 9 months is a long time, and showing her that im sorry if she was hurt by it and im happy to have her - in my life - to this limited extent, has shown that I want to forgive, for myself to get over the anger if not for anything that she may or may not feel about it. It is not an invitation to let history repeat itself. and thats the part im having to be strong to work on.

Nothing would feel better to me right in this moment than to send a note and say meet me at PEK (Beijing Intl.)  I will be there in 15 hours... .and nothing would do me more harm.  I could be back on the path to my destruction with a text message and a plane ticket.

I am sorry you are in such turmoil right now.  You have given me insight, solace, and a shoulder to lean on over these last few weeks.  You helped me tell my story until I have begun to feel bored through my stories repetition.  Life should not be a collection of soaring highs and crushing lows -it is addictive yes, but healthy NO.

If there is anything I can do to help just ask -I can feel the pain in your writing.

I wont ever tell you to not send that note. This recontact happened for a reason and im seeing a lot of benefits amidst the resurfacing of some emotions. but the same might not work due to the nuances of our unique circumstances. The same way you cant generalise the disorder (as ive been rightfully pointed out in the past) I can go a step further and say that you need a tailor made tool that will work for you. NC is a tool, but it only worked to an extent for me. Its a bit like a cop having a taser, told to use it when faced with an armed person. the advice is generalised. but what about when it gets used on someone with a heart condition? The tools are there to tr, but in my opinion, it is up to ourselves ultimately to find a tailor made approach to reaching the goals we want.

its not narcissism of trying to make this a perfect r/s at all costs, or even arrogance, its not liking the messenger because their wisdom constitues a threat to take away a drug that was so intoxicating, resulting in cognitive dissonance.

You mention quite often the 4am text message from the bar and from how i read you were shocked by it? I have the feeling my ex never actually cheated on me, but she enjoyed the power of making me believe she would or easily could. I wont ever know, she had some fixation about infidelity on my part and some over-riding fear that I would be the one who would do it first. i think its all linked to that base fear of abandonment, so she either pre-emptive striked but then regretted it or she invoked the fear in me to see what I would do, and I stayed with her. Whatever it is, the thing it did create was a trust-fracture that will never heal. Whatever else i tried to fix, I could never trust again, (her stalking me too). Every time she texts or speaks to me, i take a position of not believing it until ive verified it by finding facts to support it. thats not a r/s for me, and its what i went through. I believe from how you write, its likely this trust factor is what was broken as well.

I feel guilty you burned your soup due to my inability to get a grip, i feel guilty of all the people who have helped and by playing with fire, it shows as if their time has been wasted. I feel guilty for giving advice to others, then behaving myself in what appears a hypocritical way. but its all just part of this snakes and ladders game, i slid into the conflicted square, but still in the game.

[Wicker Man]

I feel guilty you burned your soup due to my inability to get a grip, i feel guilty of all the people who have helped and by playing with fire, it shows as if their time has been wasted. I feel guilty for giving advice to others, then behaving myself in what appears a hypocritical way. but its all just part of this snakes and ladders game, i slid into the conflicted square, but still in the game.

The soup was fine and with a little bit of 'Bar Keeper's Friend' the pot is fine too. 

The OED defines Guilt : A feeling of having committed wrong or failed in an obligation.

You have no reason to feel guilty.  We are all here dealing with various degrees of tragedy in our lives.  We are all here to support each other and through this support find enlightenment.  In very broad strokes Buddhists believe to find enlightenment  is to find an end to suffering. 

We all offer advice we have difficulty following in our own lives.  This is part of the human condition.  I have seen obese nutritionalists, realtors drowning in mortgage debt and therapists who are trying to cure themselves.  This doesn't mean the nutritionalist, realtor and therapist can't offer helpful advice.

I find it ironic your ex destroyed your kitchen and mine broke all the tile out of her grandparent's kitchen. 

As I have said I believe I exited in the twilight of the idealization phase -so I was spared the full brunt of physical rage.  There was verbal rage a plenty, but she was never destructive in my presence.  While she was waiting for me to return and raging at me (the final 7 day rage) she did being throwing some of her grandparent's possessions out of the window --she said they were things which would not be needed when we all moved in together.  --ugh.

You have been through things I only imagined -fortunately for me I have a really vivid imagination and left her.  --This is perhaps why my recovery has been difficult, I left when things were still quite good.  I left on speculation. 

I am glad you are taking your studies seriously and not letting anything distract you to their detriment.

To my understanding the very point of this forum is to have a safe place to gain understanding of ourselves and our experiences with BPD.  There should be no feelings of shame, guilt or embarrassment in participating here.  --unless it is taking away from your studies


Wicker Man

[Wicker Man]

I just read this and thought it might be good for you to keep in mind:

"If there is no benefit for you to remain in contact... ... ..It is a form of still using us even though we now dont get the benefits of actually being with them."

I hope you are happy and well.

--your smart ass friend... .Wicker Man

[Cromwell]

Shawnlam gave me a good point to focus on that I had sort of airbrushed away; "anxiety" as an indicator to those buzz feelings of "love" I had made the connection to. I got a buzz of the drama she used to create and that buzz was not love but a biochemical reaction that needs to be counterbalanced to a healthy baseline. Ive taken some benzos and funny enough, the "love" / "hate" is magically gone, my sleep was great, and I am not procrastinating from my studies (I couldnt focus anymore since she resurfaced). and started to ruminate about the r/s again as well as my current predicament with her.

The love (trust in her) evaporated 2months into the 3 years, I just couldnt accept it, I should have just drawn a line under it there and then, and I look up to those who had more self respect to have done so when the red flags were there and spared themselves from future agony.

She makes me feel edgy and this makes the sympathetic nervous system go into over drive. Add a caffeine addiction and other stimulants into the mix and its little wonder why those 3 years were so exciting yet cyclically exhausting. Accepting this recycle, actually, I initiated it, has partially caused this dopamine thrill seeking imbalance. Ive determined the cause and the effect and know what I need to do long term about it. (yes I will be back soon on the Learning board).

if it prompts anyone to look outside of the box if they havent done already, there is far too much on these boards of identifying "love" for their ex as the moribund component for the r/s faltering. I met my ex when I was on a cocktail of drugs myself, she just became another one to the mix, after the NC (withdrawl stage) completed, I had a relapse, but enough to make me see her for what she really is in my overall state of sobriety.

Much of what the fight has been against is the disillusionment of having to confront the idea that the person we were with was not the person we believed and/or expected them to be. Fight that disillusionment keeps the conflict ensuing, keeps the tangled thoughts holding back from recovery. Its not easy to see the situation for what it really was, it means having to justify 3 years of my life as being a partial sham, but im coming to terms with it.

almost 2 days of holding back that overwhelming urge to text, to hand over part of my self esteem. I told my ex once "i wonder if its easier to give up you or cigarettes", I want the answer to be her, as far as im concerned, yesterday i gave her up, today cigarettes, in that order. I will never touch either again. and she can regard the second ghosting as an even bigger virtual slap to the face that I wouldnt make my hands dirty in doing for real despite how much she literally begged for it. Her second text was "im having such a bad day".

sorry but after 8 months of my own whining, ive learned that im sick of hearing it from myself never mind her. I guess the cheating on me didnt lead to the long term happiness expected at the time. There was a time I would have raced to that distress call, pathetically, her Knight always historically became placed in Zugzwang by a more skilled player than I was.

but thats the problem when you are better at a game, eventually no-one wants to play with you anymore.

[Cat Familiar]

Cromwell,
I haven't followed your story other than reading this thread. Having had two marriages to BPD husbands, I thought I'd share some thoughts.

Perhaps I'm wrong, but much of what I'm reading seems to be based upon a power struggle. She made you feel "less than" and now you want to show her that you're in control and no longer are addicted to her.

This is just the sort of power play that can get you hooked back in again. You've seen her behavior over time. She's cheated on you. Real question: Don't you think you deserve to be treated better?

I, and so many other people here on these boards have fallen prey to the idea that we can rescue some sensitive soul who has been battered and betrayed and that through our love, we can once again make them whole. Reality hits. They were never whole in the first place and now, after months or years, they've dragged us down into their folly and we've lost our way.

Tme and time again we've been putting the life vest on them, only to see them cast it aside and tie bags of rocks to their ankles.We can only rescue ourselves.

Yes, you may see "potential" in this woman, but don't all of us here have a similar story? We want to help, our help is rejected, we feel hurt, we want to show them that we no longer care and that we're doing fine, but really, if we don't care anymore, why would we even seek contact again?

You know what you're getting into and the likelihood that you might be drawn back in. Is this an adventure that's worth having? And why, when you could have the opportunity to spend your emotional energy with a healthy normal woman who could love you wholeheartedly, would you focus on someone who is so broken and who has cheated on you?

Cat

[Cromwell]

Hi Cat,

I am trying hard, there is or was something about her that despite what she did, I took it as impulse driven, reading about the condition gave me more excuses for her, which may or may not be correct. At the least, they probably saved me from breaking her face for what she has done over 3 years, because I got the benefit of the doubt thrown as my own life vest.

There will never be another relationship, I saw her with fresh eyes and it was strange to feel a new emotion, that of disinterest, distrust and boredom versus the past excitement. I just wanted to try and see for myself how she would react and its made me feel better that she wanted to reconcile, be friends and Ive decided "thanks but no thanks" and can jettison her off out my life (for the second time).

I realised that I just started to completely forget her and started to enjoy life again after the healing, and seeing her again, at first never felt like it had any impact, but it was like ripping a scab off a wound, the past week has been reliving mentally the trauma, I needed to see and experience that to realise how this woman is someone toxic and no amount of trying to find some place for her in my life is going to be workable. I was searching for some kind of closure, not wanting to start a new adventure. I feel stronger to draw a firm line under this and have her exorcised out my life permanently, I know there is a good person in her, but so there is in every person, there is nothing unique about that. And you are right, I need to concentrate my energy on finding her replacement, ive been flogging a dead horse for far too long.

thank you 

[Shawnlam]

Never get mad at someone for who they’ve always been,be upset with yourself for not seeing it sooner.

[Cromwell]

Never get mad at someone for who they’ve always been,be upset with yourself for not seeing it sooner.

Im more than upset with myself Shawnlam but its a bit like blaming the victim of a confidence trickster. Would you tell a dementia sufferer that they should be mad at themselves for losing their life savings to someone who was a professional fraudster?

Never blame yourself for being "trusting", if I did it would sully any future relationship.

I have however stuck my head in the sand and chosen to filter out a lot of red flags. Please remember that whilst I believe in myself that she has done so many things to me, there is a very small amount of it that actually sticks in terms of her being proven guilty. She could quite easily turn around and tell anyone that I am falsely accusing her, or psychotic myself. Its not that I couldnt have made an effort to properly catch her, part of me didnt want to, I wanted to be in a r/s where there was love including trust, its just that I gave it too easily to someone who didnt respect it and took as much advantage of it as she could get away with.

[Harley Quinn]

So Cromwell, what do you plan to do now?

Love and light x

[Cromwell]

So Cromwell, what do you plan to do now?

Love and light x

Hi Harley Quinn

What much is there to do but to wait until the Queen decides to grace me with her electronic presence.

im happy not to hear from her yet, its been 2nd day stopped smoking and my plan is to not give in.

Im running out of steam though, which is all to familiar of the energy sapping that went on when we were together.

I try to give her as little attention as possible, coming here has helped me feel supported but at the same time I dont know if it makes me just think of her more than I wouldnt do otherwise. Its a bit of a trade-off I think.

any suggestions?

[Shawnlam]

Crom I have a suggestion one that I’m using as we speak.I don’t believe in blocking or NC personally because it drives me insane at times.I think knowing how she is,what she’s done,what she is capable of is enough to not stick my hand on the stove to see if the burner is hot.By reading your posts I think you possess this knowledge as well.My suggestion, just let things be, if she texts you and you know it’s manipulation just answer like you have been.If it’s the “hi how’s it going” just answer those in the same context.You know not to get involved sexually or in a relationship so don’t .Let me ask you, do you love her? And no not the idea of what she could be ,do you actually love her then good and bad?

[Cromwell]

Crom I have a suggestion one that I’m using as we speak.I don’t believe in blocking or NC personally because it drives me insane at times.I think knowing how she is,what she’s done,what she is capable of is enough to not stick my hand on the stove to see if the burner is hot.By reading your posts I think you possess this knowledge as well.My suggestion, just let things be, if she texts you and you know it’s manipulation just answer like you have been.If it’s the “hi how’s it going” just answer those in the same context.You know not to get involved sexually or in a relationship so don’t .Let me ask you, do you love her? And no not the idea of what she could be ,do you actually love her then good and bad?

I think I could have, or at least I tried to, I basically compartmentalised the heart break early on and the shock of it, because I felt there was more to the picture than a simple betrayal, and I was right.

Yet this morning I feel the thoughts are making sense, I know I could meet up with her easily, restart it all but I want to put it behind me, there is no trust that I wont ever be exposed to new trauma. In short, I wont take that risk and I dont see the point being with someone if it means being "guarded" either.

I had to get to this stage to be able to realise that it doesnt matter anymore what happened, but by holding back this impulse to text I feel stronger person for it. Ive been racking my brains of what to text her. then its like I get the messages of advice ive gathered over time from here, I dont owe her anything, not even a fake apology for ignoring her last text. (what she used to do).

I want to keep it that way, I thought about meeting her and that maybe she would hold some sort of key to taking away the pain she inflicted. I realised that in some ways by her actions she either tried to in the past in her own way, or just tried to keep me hooked in so I wouldnt leave.

The bottom line is, she has been at times a euphoric joy in my life, yet at the same time, the things she has said and done have constituted a walking nightmare, a complete health hazard, and im not about to risk or gamble that somehow everything will be different this time around in some hope of resolving some pain that I can eventually heal myself anyway.

I wish her no harm but I will never trust (her) again. She sent me humorous texts, she pours sweet words in my ears, yet I cant ever feel safe enough to embrace them for the underlying fear that I will be bitten by a snake again. I forgive her in my own way for what she did, I spent nearly 3 years figuring her out enough to know not to take it personal, but I want to get fully recovered from all this, give someone else the chance. If she was that needy for me she would be texting by now, its the same old story, she doesnt emotionally invest I would be at best - another member of her harem - to be called upon when its convenient. I see her as the "Queen", doesnt love her people but loves to call upon them to serve her when she feels the need, and im not going to be jumping anymore, im happy to have finally knocked her false crown off.

[Harley Quinn]

What much is there to do but to wait until the Queen decides to grace me with her electronic presence.

any suggestions?

I would suggest there are any number of options, and I'd urge you to think about who she now is to you and whether you wish to have her in your life in any capacity.  When you are certain what the answer is to that, then you can consider whether that then means that you want to continue communicating with her.  My advice is that the next step would be to let her know your position and put the ball in her court. 

If for example you are absolutely sure you do not wish to rekindle a romantic relationship, now or ever, then tell her.  Should you be prepared to have something like a friendship, whether now or in the future, let her know.  You might decide that hearing from her is not serving you in your healing and want to tell her that you'd rather she didn't grace you with her electronic presence any more. 

At the moment there is no clarity for either of you.  Once you're clear on your position, make her clear and what follows will tell you anything further you then need to know.   

Love and light x

[Cromwell]

Well her ears must have been burning from this thread because she texted today, hoping I was well. I had a small chat with her and made a few jokes. but kept it all intentionally cordial but short.

I have no idea where this is headed and these cyclical feelings are scaring me.

This is the mind conflict, on the surface she is that person that I felt love for and it is triggering me to feel safe, yet what she did to me I start to try and compartmentalise away, forget. I felt this horrible temptation to think about a new r/s where the past is forgotten, built on a fresh slate from both sides, forgiveness and all that jazz. As a route to healing that anger within me at the same time having her in my life for the good feelings that she manages to induce.

Theres part of me that wants to be part of her life, start as an aquaintance with no risks attached emotionally and build the trust back. I

 felt in some way happy to be in contact, then again, I was generally happy to regardless, she seemed not as much but "again" I apparently put her in a good mood. (still a feeling of being used in some way)

but im afraid this is just the moribund nature of it all and im being, once again, idealistic and stupid.

[Shawnlam]

Crom you would be stupid if you weren’t aware of it, which is not the case.Just be cautious when interacting and everything should be fine