Are There Any Family Members Out There Who Chose To Disconnect from uBPD?

[Depression = 72% of members]

Hi Angie,

I don't believe anyone is asking you to be perfect. You have received support and advice here from some of the very best bpdfamily has to offer. Looking back through your threads I see a lot of evidence of you being supported as a person. Yet when looking at your own behavior, it would be remiss of us not to point out where you could possibly make some improvements which could benefit you in the long-run.

We have members who've been dealing with BPD family-members for decades and they are posting from a place of experience. BPD is a very challenging disorder and none of us are born with the skills to deal with it. This is something we all have to learn and on this board we can learn from each other, if and when we are willing too learn. There is often no better teacher than experience and the good thing about this board is that we can not only learn from our own experiences, but from the collective experiences of the entire membership.

I don't think of my behavior as a respect/disrespect thing in the confrontation I had with them.
... .
So if what it seems I did was disrespectful, I think I can understand for myself why.  It doesn't make it right, but it makes it understandable.

I think we all can understand where you were coming from, frustration when dealing with difficult people is quite common. What I'm trying to point out is, that although letting of steam is understandable and can feel good in the moment and shortly thereafter, in the long-run it might not be in your best interest. No matter how difficult you believe your son's fiancée is, you cannot control her behavior nor make her change if she does not want to change. What you can change is your own behavior and how you respond to her.

Based on your posts I believe you really care about your son and your grandchildren and want the best for them. The reality of the matter is that he's an adult in this relationship, this might be an unpleasant reality for you, but it nevertheless is still the reality. The resources on this site can help you navigate your way through this reality if you are willing to study them and apply them over and over again. This is something that takes a lot of time and practice and that's why there is so much focus on practicing alternative responses ahead of time.

What's done is done is indeed true. On this board we are not focused on the past, except to learn from it so we can do better in the future. All our experiences are potential learning experiences and present us with opportunities to grow and heal if we are open to it.

... .(including now knowing for a fact that she is cheating on my son), and know for a fact that she is working in the porn industry, and know for a fact that she is causing damage to her children, and know for a fact that she has filed false reports to the State for aid

I believe this is new information you have not shared before. How do you know these things for certain?

, and know for a fact that she will never treat us as we deserve to be treated - not asking for much here, just as her fiancee's parents and treated with respect and consideration.

In what ways do you feel she is treating you as parents without respect and consideration? If you want to express a need for change in the relationship, communication techniques such as S.E.T. and D.E.A.R.M.A.N. can potentially be very helpful in future interactions with your son and his fiancee.

Yes, Panda, I know there will be consequences to pay.  I don't know what those consequences are.  I do know it has taken a toll on not only my mental health but my physical health and I had to let off steam.
... .
It was done as a human being who has had her fill of all of this and of working so hard for the past 4 years receiving nothing in return.

Dealing with this for four years is a long time and it is very clear you have a lot of pent-up anger and resentment. Anger and resentment are feelings many of our members have dealt and often still deal with. Even so, do you feel like letting off steam really is something people have to do or perhaps also something people can choose to do or not do? Are there perhaps steps you can take to channel all this pent-up anger and resentment differently in a way that might help your preserve the relationship with your son and grandchildren?

[Kwamina]

Hi Angie,

I don't believe anyone is asking you to be perfect. You have received support and advice here from some of the very best bpdfamily has to offer. Looking back through your threads I see a lot of evidence of you being supported as a person. Yet when looking at your own behavior, it would be remiss of us not to point out where you could possibly make some improvements which could benefit you in the long-run.

We have members who've been dealing with BPD family-members for decades and they are posting from a place of experience. BPD is a very challenging disorder and none of us are born with the skills to deal with it. This is something we all have to learn and on this board we can learn from each other, if and when we are willing too learn. There is often no better teacher than experience and the good thing about this board is that we can not only learn from our own experiences, but from the collective experiences of the entire membership.

I don't think of my behavior as a respect/disrespect thing in the confrontation I had with them.
... .
So if what it seems I did was disrespectful, I think I can understand for myself why.  It doesn't make it right, but it makes it understandable.

I think we all can understand where you were coming from, frustration when dealing with difficult people is quite common. What I'm trying to point out is, that although letting of steam is understandable and can feel good in the moment and shortly thereafter, in the long-run it might not be in your best interest. No matter how difficult you believe your son's fiancée is, you cannot control her behavior nor make her change if she does not want to change. What you can change is your own behavior and how you respond to her.

Based on your posts I believe you really care about your son and your grandchildren and want the best for them. The reality of the matter is that he's an adult in this relationship, this might be an unpleasant reality for you, but it nevertheless is still the reality. The resources on this site can help you navigate your way through this reality if you are willing to study them and apply them over and over again. This is something that takes a lot of time and practice and that's why there is so much focus on practicing alternative responses ahead of time.

What's done is done is indeed true. On this board we are not focused on the past, except to learn from it so we can do better in the future. All our experiences are potential learning experiences and present us with opportunities to grow and heal if we are open to it.

... .(including now knowing for a fact that she is cheating on my son), and know for a fact that she is working in the porn industry, and know for a fact that she is causing damage to her children, and know for a fact that she has filed false reports to the State for aid

I believe this is new information you have not shared before. How do you know these things for certain?

, and know for a fact that she will never treat us as we deserve to be treated - not asking for much here, just as her fiancee's parents and treated with respect and consideration.

In what ways do you feel she is treating you as parents without respect and consideration? If you want to express a need for change in the relationship, communication techniques such as S.E.T. and D.E.A.R.M.A.N. can potentially be very helpful in future interactions with your son and his fiancee.

Yes, Panda, I know there will be consequences to pay.  I don't know what those consequences are.  I do know it has taken a toll on not only my mental health but my physical health and I had to let off steam.
... .
It was done as a human being who has had her fill of all of this and of working so hard for the past 4 years receiving nothing in return.

Dealing with this for four years is a long time and it is very clear you have a lot of pent-up anger and resentment. Anger and resentment are feelings many of our members have dealt and often still deal with. Even so, do you feel like letting off steam really is something people have to do or perhaps also something people can choose to do or not do? Are there perhaps steps you can take to channel all this pent-up anger and resentment differently in a way that might help your preserve the relationship with your son and grandchildren?

[CollectedChaos]

Hi Angie,

I'd like to echo Kwamina in this specifically:

Even so, do you feel like letting off steam really is something people have to do or perhaps also something people can choose to do or not do? Are there perhaps steps you can take to channel all this pent-up anger and resentment differently in a way that might help your preserve the relationship with your son and grandchildren?

I completely understand that letting off steam can make you feel better.  However, in doing so you are making others feel worse (your son, his fiance, and likely your grandkids if they were in earshot).  While I don't think that is your intention, it is the reality.  Just because she is someone you don't like/don't agree with/don't respect doesn't mean that it is okay for you to reciprocate the behavior you feel you are receiving.  Two wrongs don't make a right.  There are ways to voice disagreements without resorting to anger or yelling.  I think the advice you've been given regarding SET and DEARMAN is very good - it took me a long time to get it right with these techniques (lots of trial and error), but I have found that practicing them over and over again (and even being mindful of my interactions with non-BPD family and friends and seeing that those relationships followed these same patterns without my realizing it) eventually gave me less anxiety and a better way to control my interactions with my BPD mother and ensure things weren't getting out of hand.  There are also lots of things you can do physically and mentally to decompress and ensure you don't "blow up" later on down the road.  These can include therapy, exercise, or other hobbies to clear your head - once you take your mind off of the situation for a bit, it will likely make it easier for you to see the realities with a fresh set of eyes.

I also want to echo what NotWendy said regarding being supported.  Her story is much like mine in that when I first learned about BPD, it was hard for me to swallow that I was also the problem, and that the only way my relationship with my mom could change was if I changed.  It's hard to see fault in yourself, especially when it's so clear that the other person is a real problem.  However, I can only control and change myself - what my mom chooses to do with that is on her.  If your son and his fiance choose to disregard your feelings/not take your advice/make their own decisions that you don't agree with, that is not something you can control or change. 

While you say you are just venting, you are also specifically asking us for advice in your posts, and that is what we are doing.  Just saying "Oh that's terrible" isn't constructive and doesn't help you, aside from maybe making you feel a little better.  We are all giving you advice that you can use to try to actively better the situation you are currently in.  I'm sorry that you feel like this isn't supportive. 

I think at this point you have a choice.  You can either continue to hold onto this resentment and slowly break apart any remaining relationship you have with your son, or you can take a look in the mirror and try to figure out what you can do differently to preserve that relationship.  And at the end of the day, even if both options result in you not having a solid relationship with your son, I can guarantee that you will feel better about the second option because at least then you tried.

[Angie59]

Good morning to all!

I took a bit of a break from the forum.  We had some out-of-town company since Saturday and just left this morning.  Things have been pretty chaotic, but in a good way.

I re-read the recent replies and gave things a second look now that my temper and anger is not as high as it was when I first wrote my replies.

My way of handling anger does need to be handled differently and I am willing to work on and learn (and I emphasize learn), how to handle it differently and more constructively. 

Please know, this is not a defense for my expressing anger as I did to my son and his uBPD fiancee last week.  I came from a very strong family background where anger was handled in the way I am repeating as an adult.  Whenever someone in my family (consisting of a single mom, grandparents (her mother and father) who my brother and I lived with along with my mom of course, and even a great-grandmother all under the same roof. 

Here is what happened when someone became angry with another person in the home:  The angry person yelled loudly at the person making them angry, told them exactly what they were mad about and how they felt about it; the person getting yelled at would yell back at them, in defense of their actions, situation somehow seemed to get resolved rather quickly (going by childhood memories here), and then literally 2 minutes later, those same two people involved in the above would sit down in the living room and say, "Oh, it's time for our show," and the other person would say, "Oh, yeah, I wonder what happened to so-and-so on the show as though what just transpired minutes ago never happened.  Anger - state it loudly - other person responds - stating their case even louder, and then we go back to watching TV and life is back to normal again - all in a matter of minutes!

I have struggled with this issue of how I handle anger most of my life.  I don't know any other way, but I am certainly willing to learn, listen to others' experiences, listening to advice, etc... .  This is my second marriage and it came out in the first marriage in marriage therapy that my ex-husband stated, "I will never get used to her anger."  So I tried one day with every ounce of my being when I became angry over something one day, with this knowledge of how he felt, to take deep breaths, lower my voice by about 100 notches, and gave it my all to say what I felt.  When I finished I was giving myself mental kudos for this because I thought I got it all under control really well and felt he would not be so hurt as he was before.  I thought it was a big breakthrough for us, but he replied and said my facial expressions were still showing anger.

Yep, at that point, I got pretty defensive and anger all over again.  I put out 1000% only to find out that my facial expressions weren't right now.  I felt defeated, angry all over again and pretty much fed up because clearly my efforts were not recognized and realistically, I cannot view my face while I am talking unless I'm looking at and monitoring my speech and face all at the same time.  At the time, it seemed rather ridiculous.  We divorced many years ago and my husband for the last 33 years has handled things pretty well with my anger.  He just puts me in my place when I get too loud and "in your face," and tells me he won't tolerate me yelling at him like that and I need to regroup, calm down and we can start again.  It's been very effective.

So there's my background with anger.  It has been an issue for me and continues to be.  I am again more than willing to learn how to deal with coming across to my son and uBPD fiancee better than I have and hopefully come out with a better result. 

I welcome all of your replies, ideas, validation, support, empathy, etc., and think this is a wonderful place for me to be.  I apologize that my responses were so defensive and I certainly apologize if I made anyone angry or hurt anyone's feelings by anything I said. 

I am a work in progress right now, which I suppose we all are each and every day.

  to all

Angie59

[Notwendy]

Hi Angie- glad you are here. You have touched on some very important concepts- concepts that can help you in all your relationships- including your son and DIL if they come around.

Anger is a normal emotion, and if we don't have ways to manage anger, we can either yell it out or become depressed. Everyone feels anger. Learning to manage anger so that we don't ruin relationships with others is a great skill.

Nobody expects perfection. In fact, there is a saying "progress not perfection". Learning can be two steps forward and one step backwards. Make a commitment to learn but don't be hard on yourself. A child learning to walk can fall down and has to get back up again, until he gets it. Learning to manage emotions can be like that.

Learning to truly apologize is also a skill. I realized that I didn't know that skill, and instead would explain or give an excuse. That feels invalidating. A true apology has no explanation and no expectations. Saying to your son and DIL- " I am sorry that I lost my temper. Please forgive me" is all you need. It is up to them to forgive you if they choose. Also they may yell back and all you can say is " Yes, I am sorry" and if they are abusive politely say " I need to go now ,I just wanted to tell you this" and then hang up or walk away. Don't get involved in the drama.

It helps to understand what is happening biologically when we are angry. We all have a primitive part of the brain. We share this with all the animals. It is an instinctual part of us. As humans, we also have a higher thinking part of the brain - the one that uses judgement. When we are angry, we are so flooded with feelings we act more from our primitive brain " the lizard" brain. Our fight and flight instincts are turned on and our judgement is muted. This is why we can't process when angry. It is best to recognize this and not say or do anything unless we are in true danger. This doesn't mean not discussing what made you angry or letting people do things that make you angry. It just means that it is better to discuss these things when all of you are calmer. If a pwBPD can't handle their own emotions, they can't handle someone else's so it is best to wait when you are calmer and less reactive to their possible reactions.

Dysfunctional behaviors are intergenerational. You learned from your family and they learned from their parents/grandparents. Learning new behaviors can break this cycle but if people are not aware of it, they don't know they need to change. In families, dysfunctional behavior is seen as "normal" and only when a person relates to someone outside the family do they see the dysfunction in it.

We also tend to choose partners who "match" our issues in some way. This may be a puzzle. It was for me and my husband. My mother is severely BPD and his parents are not. When we had issues between us, I wondered how we could match. At first glance his parents didn't seem anything like mine, but now I can see that his parents can't handle angry emotions much better than mine could- and so neither of us grew up with role models for a good way to do that. With my BPD mother, her emotions were all over the place- yelling, raging. With my H's family they either didn't discuss feelings, or showed anger like yours. If someone was angry, the goal was - biggest, meanest, yeller wins and they kept on going until someone backed off. Like your family once it was over, they all sat down like nothing happened but nothing was resolved or repaired either.

So if my H was mad, he would yell and say mean things. He always "won" as I would break down crying, thinking he meant what he said. In his mind, it was game over, meanest person wins and didn't mean it. There was no reconciliation of the issues and this pattern eroded the marriage with him thinking all was well because he was doing what was normal in his family. But my family was different. I feared anger and didn't know how to fight back because if BPD momma was angry, it was a terrible thing in my family- Dad would be angry, we'd be punished, BPD mom would not forget. I grew up fearing anger and so began to walk on eggshells with my husband and we recreated some of the same dysfunction in my parents' marriage.

I know you don't have BPD but one thing that is in common with that is that- people with BPD can't handle uncomfortable emotions and anger is one of them, so they lose their cool with that as well. I hear that you also have a lot of fear and fear is often expressed as anger. Do you think your son fears anger or considers an angry outburst to be "normal" since he grew up with it? This may be why he didn't see the abnormality in his fiancees temper, or even may be afraid of it. This is not to blame you. How we choose a partner is complicated and not something to blame our parents on but being aware of family patterns does help us see what we can improve on. I don't blame my parents for how I grew up- they did the best they could with what they knew and they also did some good things for me. However, I had to learn a different way to manage my own feelings than how I grew up and as adults, many of us do too. Seeing how your son responds to anger might help you understand his situation better. While you aptly feel like a victim in this situation, what he deals with in his own relationship is probably very difficult too.

We can only change ourselves, but when we learn emotionally ways to manage our feelings and relate to others, it can be a game changer as we role model it. When we become less emotionally reactive to drama, we don't add to it. We can not change the past, but it is not too late to make positive changes. My mother is elderly and although she is still dysfunctional and a relationship isn't easy- it is better than it was- because I learned to manage myself in a relationship with her. I'm not perfect either- but it is progress, not perfection  

[Kwamina]

Hi again Angie59

Great to see you back. Thanks for sharing some more of your background story. Given your past experiences and how anger was expressed and dealt with in your family of origin, I understand why this for you would feel like a normal way of expressing yourself. Basically growing up in your family this was the norm.

The first step to changing something is acknowledging it and when it comes to your anger, I think you've just done that. We actually have some resources here that deal specifically with anger and ways to deal with it:

Anger and Healing

Has the anger gone too far?

Is resentment blocking your healing and recovery?

Anger Management: Anger Issues and Types of Anger

You mention your husband of 33 years. Was he also present when you confronted your son and his fiancée? If he was, how did he view what you did?

A few days have passed, have you since had any contact with your son and/or his fiancée?

I am glad you find this forum such a wonderful place

The Board Parrot

[Angie59]

Good morning!

I think the last post I made did not answer a few questions that were posed to me.  I will address Kwamina's questions first. 

You asked if I knew for sure that my son's uBPD fiancee was cheating on him.  Without going into detail, yes I do.  It is not speculation.  It is not most likely, it sure looks that way.  It is not that there is a 99% chance she is.  She is engaging in sex with one man in particular right now (100%) and perhaps others in the past.  Promiscuity, I learned is one of the BPD traits and it fits her to a T. 

We had out-of-town family over the weekend, so yes, for that reason, we have seen both my son, grandchildren and his uBPD fiancee for a bar-b-que at our house.  My original plan was because of the tension between them and my husband and I due to Friday's blow-up, we were going to run some errands and give them a chance to be alone and enjoy the rest of the family without the obvious tension that would have been present.  This, in turn, upset my nephew (out-of-town) who said he was making the barbeque for us (my husband and I) to thank us for letting them stay with us and for everything we had done for them.  So... .we decided to stay there - they traveled 900 miles to see us, so I felt he deserved that much, so we stayed.

Both son and fiancee acted as if nothing at all ever happened and enjoyed the barbeque.  I, on the other hand, am not so quick to forget what happened so I faked it for the day and acted as if everything was okay for my family's sake. 

A discussion was had this morning with my son about how my finger pointing and yelling was not going to be tolerated.  It left him and his fiancee so upset and hurt.  I can understand what he is saying.  Notice I say "he" because he is a sensitive person and I know him well enough to know that he can be hurt by this. 

I have a hard time here guys with this:  Saying your fiancee was so hurt by me (I raise my voice, I did some fingerpointing, literrally - never physical violence, never throwing anything, no hands on anyone - it's my mouth, and apparently my fingers) that hurt her so terribly.  However, this is the same person who yelled out "Yeah, go back in the house you m&$%@#* f&#*^ one day when we were at their house for a barbeque to my son with my newborn grandson in her arms.  She is also the same person who screamed (literally) at her then 3-year-old daughter because she had an accident in her panties while we were there and couldn't control it enough to make it to the bathroom.  She yelled, boy did she yell, and said so many bellittling and humiliating things to her that I will not repeat them here.  All to a 3-year-old. 

So... .what's going on?  Yelling is only prohibited to me, but she can go ahead and act this way in front of us to her child, and God only knows what it is in store for my grandson.  Contradictions?  Double standards? Me being unreasonable?  Am I not seeing things correctly? 

Please tell me because I am really struggling with this one.

 

[Angie59]

Forgot to answer another question you had, Kwamina about what was my husband's reaction to all of this.  He does not yell much, but when he gets really angry, watch out!  In this instance, he pretty much agreed with me as the conversation went along and supported everything I had to say.  He also said he only said what he said because he could not get a word in edge-wise.  I'm only trying to give you the honest picture here.  I was on a roll.

Also Kwamina, thank you for the links.  I am going to go over them this afternoon and this evening.  I am sure they will be helpful to me. 

To NotWendy, thank you so much for taking the time to explain the family dynamics of your family and the differences with your husband's family.  It does make it hard when coming from such different backgrounds. 

My son's uBPD fiancee's family is very, very different than what I was brought up with.  Her mother has come right out and said she did not want children, but had my son's fiancee for her husband.  She has lost her temper in front of me several times - not directly at me, but has shown her anger and raised her voice.  My son's fiancee's father is an alcoholic and does not really know how to speak in a soft voice.  He is a ole' country boy who had to work hard at an early age and is still working hard at his job and resents the job my son has.  My son is an architect and has a nice cushy job in an office.  When I tried to express my condolences on the passing of his father, he only went in to some big rendition (speaking very loudly the whole time) about how horrible his brother was and he did this and that and so on. 

With this type of background, why am I so hurtful to her?  I feel I'm the big bad ogre in the room and yet, I see it all around me in this family atmosphere (which is really nothing close to what I define as a family). 

I want to say at this point - I am really trying hard to learn right now, not only to better the relationship with my son's family but to make me a better an happier person as well.  If it appears that I take offense to anything anyone says, maybe it's simply because I need to clarify the information I put out there or I just need to stop and think that maybe it just may be true!  I'm keeping my mind as open as possible right now.  I appreciate all of you and feel so fortunate I found this safe place.

Angie
 

[Panda39]

My son's uBPD fiancee's family is very, very different than what I was brought up with.  Her mother has come right out and said she did not want children, but had my son's fiancee for her husband.  She has lost her temper in front of me several times - not directly at me, but has shown her anger and raised her voice.  My son's fiancee's father is an alcoholic and does not really know how to speak in a soft voice.  He is a ole' country boy who had to work hard at an early age and is still working hard at his job and resents the job my son has.  My son is an architect and has a nice cushy job in an office.  When I tried to express my condolences on the passing of his father, he only went in to some big rendition (speaking very loudly the whole time) about how horrible his brother was and he did this and that and so on. 

Having seen/heard all of this, can you have some compassion for your son's fiancé?  Can you imagine what it might be like for a little girl to have a dad that doesn't do any thing but yell and complain and a mother who has told her she was unwanted?  Can you see that she had a double whammy when it came to her parents. Where was the love for that little girl? 

Maybe you can make room for compassion and use that to push out some of the anger you have towards her.

Panda39

[Angie59]

Hi Panda!

Thanks for replying.  I have had compassion for my son's uBPD fiancee.  I have read some of her poetry books which are very telling as well as what she has written in the margins, with her encouraging me to do so when asked if I could read them.  Somewhere, somehow, along the line, someone or someones have done something to her and I don't even want to begin to imagine what that could have been, but it has affected her deeply and I can see that and my heart melted when I read the things she wrote.  They were eye-openers. 

That said, the very next day I come across information and proof of her cheating on my son, the man she went out of the country with less than one month ago.  All of her interests now are surrounded around this man.  She dresses scantily - not for my son, but for other men.  She is rude around me, does not show any respect for myself or my husband, excludes us from plans, and so much more. 

Yes, absolutely I have compassion for her.  Please tell... .how do I get past all of the above?  Did the compassion disappear now?  No, not when I think about the poetry books and her comments. 

How many slaps in the face am I expected to take because of her past though?  I am asking this in all sincerity. 

[once removed]

However, this is the same person who yelled out "Yeah, go back in the house you m&$%@#* f&#*^ one day when we were at their house for a barbeque to my son with my newborn grandson in her arms.  She is also the same person who screamed (literally) at her then 3-year-old daughter because she had an accident in her panties while we were there and couldn't control it enough to make it to the bathroom.  She yelled, boy did she yell, and said so many bellittling and humiliating things to her that I will not repeat them here.  All to a 3-year-old. 

if you want our support, sympathy, and understanding when it comes to this, you have it. it isnt fair, and shes a pill. and weve been there. we all needed to be able to vent our frustrations, and the unfairness of our situations, and at times still do, because it is stuff that really tests us.

at the end of the day, this is about making the best of a bad situation (and improving it where/if possible). fair or not, thats going to have to start with you - she has obvious limitations in that regard, and youre the stronger of the two. its going to take some patience, some skills, and some practicing those skills when youre tested (you wont get it right 100% of the time, no one does, and thats okay), and some skills for coping with your frustrations and hurts, which at times, we all need to vent and have understood. it may take some healthy distance in some situations, too.

folks have been talking about the karpman drama triangle and how it plays out between all of you. have you thought it through to logical conclusions? if your sons relationship ends (im assuming you believe that would be best for him) then hes going to need your support and understanding, and hes going to need to trust that its there, which you can consistently demonstrate. but what happens if the conflict between all of you continues, the relationship breaks, and your son blames you instead? telling him or us that it isnt fair wont do any good. there will be tremendous damage, and it could come at a loss of contact with your son and grandchildren.

we dont choose our families. we dont necessarily like everyone in them. we navigate it (a lot easier if we have people to help and guide us) because we love and value our family more than who is right or wrong. at the heart of the karpman drama triangle is the need to be right. when we let go of that (not simple), its easier to shift to a healthier place in the triangle.

[Panda39]

What I'm suggesting is using compassion for that little girl that had a poor upbringing as a tool to help keep your anger in check.  Maybe picture her in your minds eye as a little girl who has not had the benefit of the best upbringing.  Your anger is yours to control. Managing anger might be a good topic to discuss with your Therapist next time you go in for a visit.

Panda39

[Harri]

My son's uBPD fiancee's family is very, very different than what I was brought up with.  Her mother has come right out and said she did not want children, but had my son's fiancee for her husband.  She has lost her temper in front of me several times - not directly at me, but has shown her anger and raised her voice.  My son's fiancee's father is an alcoholic and does not really know how to speak in a soft voice.  He is a ole' country boy who had to work hard at an early age and is still working hard at his job and resents the job my son has.  My son is an architect and has a nice cushy job in an office.  When I tried to express my condolences on the passing of his father, he only went in to some big rendition (speaking very loudly the whole time) about how horrible his brother was and he did this and that and so on. 

With this type of background, why am I so hurtful to her?  I feel I'm the big bad ogre in the room and yet, I see it all around me in this family atmosphere (which is really nothing close to what I define as a family). 

Angie, spend some times reading the other stories on this board, the ones not just about an in-law;  those of us with disordered parents and parents who did not want them and or were alcoholics.  You know how you have trouble relating to your STB DIL and her family?  What if I told you she probably has the same difficulty with you only worse because of the abuse and environment she grew up in?   I am not saying you should ignore her behavior or be full of compassion 100% or anything like that.  I am just trying to shift your perspective a bit so maybe your anger and resentment can decline a bit and you hopefully won't explode again.

Keep focusing on what you can control:  yourself. 

[CollectedChaos]

How many slaps in the face am I expected to take because of her past though?

I don't think anyone is asking you to take slaps in the face.  Others on the board pointing out her likely not-so-great upbringing is simply a way to refocus your mind on the situation in an effort to better control your anger.  Feeling compassion for her will likely not stop you from being angry at certain issues, nor should it.  What it can do is remind you that there are reasons for her flaws, and those reasons are not simply to make you angry - her issues are far deeper than that and yelling at her or your son will not fix them or "snap her out of it." 

It sounds as though you are feeling that not showing your anger and having to "bottle your feelings" equates to a relationship not being equal or fair.  If she's allowed to do x, y, and z, why can't I?  I hate to use a common saying, but "Life's not fair."  This relationship between you two will never be fair in your eyes if this is how you see fair.  If she truly has BPD, she is not capable of giving you what you are looking for.  Expecting something from her that she cannot provide will only serve to perpetuate your anger. 

With this type of background, why am I so hurtful to her?  I feel I'm the big bad ogre in the room and yet, I see it all around me in this family atmosphere (which is really nothing close to what I define as a family).

She likely thinks you are different than her family simply because they are her family.  She has been around them for many, many years and they are therefore more predictable.  She likely knows what to expect from them and that's far less threatening than someone new that she hasn't figured out yet.  It's similar to the yelling you described in your family growing up.  This is comfortable to you, but others looking in may not feel that way.  The things I grew up around are things I grew up thinking were totally normal and fine but in telling my stories to others in adulthood, the reactions show they are far from normal.  Knowing what's coming and being able to see familiar patterns is more comfortable than the unknown - and right now you are the unknown.  I wouldn't take it personally - I think this is human nature and not even necessarily related to BPD. 

[Notwendy]

It doesn't seem fair that the fiancee gets to act the way she does and still gets your son's attention and love, while you behave better and he isn't as accepting as you.

My only suggestion is to get off that triangle. It leads nowhere. You are you, and she is who she is, and for some reason, which you may not ever fully understand, he chose her.

I grew up with that. If I did anything that upset my mother or my father, it was a major uproar from them, even if it was the slightest thing. On the other hand, my mother could do some really horrible things without any apparent consequence from my father. As a teen this was very confusing- parents holding me to traditional rules for teens and yet, BPD mother seemed to have no rules but thank goodness they raised me with ethics and rules.

I also found that my father would show his anger and set limits on the person he could do that with, and that was me. If mother spent without limits, and I asked him for something, he would say "no" - maybe because he knew he could without triggering a BPD rage.

I think it helps to have compassion for the fiancee-  but that does not mean tolerating abuse. Perhaps your son can see her childhood hurts and desires to protect her. He sees you as the stronger one. As I got to know my mother's FOO more, I realized how hard it must have been for her to grow up in that family. They are very invalidating and also act superior to her- and I feel they act that way to me. She's always trying to prove to them she can measure up. I can have compassion for the hurt child she may have been.

I can't begin to understand my father's sense of connection to her, but I also observed that no matter what she did, the bond was stronger than that. His only concern was for her well being and he would do whatever it took to try to make her happy. The rules in my family were: mother can do whatever she wants and we were not to say a word about it. It may not have been fair but that's the way it was.

If it seems you are getting the tougher end of the deal, be glad you don't behave like her. As an adult, I am glad I didn't get away with behaviors I don't respect. The determinant of my behavior is me. I treat my mother accordingly not because of her but because I choose to treat people according to my own values. This also includes myself.

[Angie59]

Thank you once again for all of your replies.  They are truly appreciated.

I am sitting here writing this at my son's house right now because it is our day to babysit him.  Tomorrow we will not be here as I am having a cardio stress test done and a few other things. 

Another blowup occurred with my son on the phone last night.  This has all taken a great toll on me, as I know it has on others in the family.  My husband and I are not speaking to each other due to conversations about this whole matter.  He agrees totally and sees things as I do, but for some odd reason, whenever we try to talk to each other about it, he's interrupting me, or I'm interrupting him and the whole thing goes haywire.  After 33 years of marriage this is the first time we have ever gone this long without speaking.  I feel my son's uBPD has tentacles that are reaching into my own house as well as being present here and are spreading poison everywhere.

With that said, yes, I do feel compassion for her.  Every time I think of the things she had to say in her poetry, etc.  I don't know any details whatsoever that happened to her, but as I said before, she is a very disturbed person and I think the people who should have cared for her the most and kept her safe are the same ones that are close to her now. 

I will take the advice given and try to keep that little child image in my mind and keep my compassion going for her.  It is very difficult to do (not saying impossible), because I have other things in my mind's eye, like her possibly in bed with another man this very minute as I am writing this.  As his mother, that is a hard one to take. 

The same tablet that nude/bondage pictures were on is sitting here next to me, all ready for me to take a peek at.  Something in me has now changed.  I have no interest anymore on what is on that tablet.  I have no interest in the new revealing clothes she has bought, any of the things I was having to hold myself back from being a snoop.  I'm simply not interested anymore.

Today, I have said perhaps a dozen words.  I feel nothing inside me at this point.  No anger, no bitterness, no wondering, just sadness.  Pure and complete sadness inside with a feeling of emptiness.  I guess you could say defeated for lack of a better word.  I don't want to hold a conversation with my husband now for fear I will say something wrong and the situation with us will only worsen.  I certainly don't want to talk to my son or his fiancee about anything whatsoever.  I feel like going home after this day and locking my bedroom door and not coming back out until tomorrow for my appointment.  No conversing with anyone. 

I don't mean this to sound like a pity party for myself.  I don't feel sorry for me.  I feel like under the circumstances, at this point anything I would even attempt to say would yield negative results. 

The sadness comes from a strong feeling I have that my son and fiancee will be (if not already), looking for someone to replace us for babysitting.  This was my worst nightmare and I do believe it will come true.  I can't say I have any real proof of it, just a strong feeling within me. 

I know I will be going through more loss without him (my GS2) and by that I am talking about the loss of my dog a few weeks back.  They were both so much comfort for me when I felt no one else was understanding me.  My dog loved me no matter what and we were attached at the hip!  My grandson loves me for who I am.   Him and I are buddies and I will miss him terribly if this occurs.  Too many losses in too short of time?  Not to mention the loss of communication with my son.

Maybe some of you reading this may be thinking, "well, you had it coming to you for losing your cool and yelling, etc."  Maybe I do.  I just know that today feels like one of the saddest days of my life.  When my son gets him I feel as if I will be saying goodbye to them all forever.  Catastrophic thinking?  Probably.  I always prepare for the worst in my head though.

Thanks for reading this and letting me share my feelings with you.

Angie

[Kwamina]

Hi Angie

Thanks for answering more of my questions

I always prepare for the worst in my head though.

Do you feel like this approach to life has helped you in any way so far? What would you say are the advantages of thinking this way? Can you perhaps also list some possible disadvantages of you thinking this way?

You asked if I knew for sure that my son's uBPD fiancee was cheating on him.  Without going into detail, yes I do.  It is not speculation.  It is not most likely, it sure looks that way.  It is not that there is a 99% chance she is.  She is engaging in sex with one man in particular right now (100%) and perhaps others in the past.  Promiscuity, I learned is one of the BPD traits and it fits her to a T.  

Does your son also know this? If he does, has he expressed to you how he feels about his wife's behavior?

Also Kwamina, thank you for the links.  I am going to go over them this afternoon and this evening.  I am sure they will be helpful to me.  

I hope you indeed were able to go through some of those resources. I think they can be very helpful to you as you deal with all of this.

How many slaps in the face am I expected to take because of her past though?  I am asking this in all sincerity.  

I think what might help is to not consider this as an 'either or' thing. You have more options available than just 'taking slaps in the face' or 'going off on her' like you did the other day. Those are two extremes and they are both rather unhealthy. Two of the most important tools mentioned are this site are validation and boundaries. Sometimes it might seem that it's either one or the other, but I believe that in healthy relationships and communication, validation and boundaries actually go hand in hand. Validation and compassion without having boundaries in place can easily lead to total self-sacrifice which isn't healthy. On the other hand, when setting boundaries without compassion or empathy, being assertive very quickly turns into being aggressive. It is possible to have compassion while at the same time calmly and firmly asserting and protecting yourself. Yet when you go off, you aren't calm at all which make it very easy to lose sight of compassion and then only rage remains. Does this make sense to you? Can you see approaches that might work which aren't one of these two opposite extremes?

I have a hard time here guys with this:  Saying your fiancee was so hurt by me (I raise my voice, I did some fingerpointing, literrally - never physical violence, never throwing anything, no hands on anyone - it's my mouth, and apparently my fingers) that hurt her so terribly.  However, this is the same person who yelled out "Yeah, go back in the house you m&$%@#* f&#*^ one day when we were at their house for a barbeque to my son with my newborn grandson in her arms.  She is also the same person who screamed (literally) at her then 3-year-old daughter because she had an accident in her panties while we were there and couldn't control it enough to make it to the bathroom.  She yelled, boy did she yell, and said so many bellittling and humiliating things to her that I will not repeat them here.  All to a 3-year-old.  

So... .what's going on?  Yelling is only prohibited to me, but she can go ahead and act this way in front of us to her child, and God only knows what it is in store for my grandson.  Contradictions?  :)ouble standards? Me being unreasonable?  Am I not seeing things correctly?  

I don't think it's about it being right when one person does it and wrong when another does it, or one person being allowed to behave this way and the other person not. Her behavior you describe here would probably also be deemed inappropriate by many of our members, just like you going off on your son and her the way you did the other day. Calmly and firmly asserting yourself while expressing how inappropriate you find her behavior would be an alternative and likely more constructive way of dealing with this.

Also, if your son's fiancée indeed has BPD, it is important to keep in mind that she suffers from distorted thinking and perception, resulting in intense emotions in turn resulting in rather unstable behavior. This does not excuse any of her behavior, but it is important to recognize that BPD is a serious disorder and people with BPD don't just choose to turn the BPD switch on. If she indeed has BPD, her behavior most likely isn't a reflection of you ar anyone else at all, it's just a projection of her own inner turmoil and negativity. Her behavior is way more about her than it is about you. At the same time, your own behavior is also mostly about you, way more than it is about anyone else.

[Angie59]

Hello everyone!

Kiwamina, I just wanted to address a few things you asked me about.  :)oes my "always expect the worst" to happen outlook help me.  No, usually not.  It is usually related to health aspects, so if I have to have blood work done, for instance, until I receive the results, I expect the worst possible thing will show up and they will be telling me I am going to die.  All it really does is cause a lot more anxiety than I already have.  Once I am told everything is fine, then I can give a huge sign of relief and carry on (until the next doc visit or test, etc).  In a strange sort of way it seems like maybe I have tricked myself into thinking that as long as I expect the worse, then everything will be okay, as this is what always happens.  Overall, I recognize it is not a healthy way to think of things.  

Regarding my son and what he thinks about his uBPD's fiancee's behavior with other men, I don't really know.  I feel he certainly has pretty much knowledge of what may be going on, but does he know for certain that he is cheating on him.  No, I don't think so or he may just be in denial.  The pictures I spoke of are certainly out in the open on the tablet for him to look at if he wishes.  He has certainly know about each of the trips she took with other men.  The very fact that he made the comment he did to his fiancee when she left on this last trip with her male "friend" to the Caribbeans, when she told him she was going was "Well, that's great timing.  We just got engaged."  He had to have said that for some reason.  Her response (which totally blows me away - please tell me if you know), was a bewildered look on her face, a shrug of the shoulder and just said, Well... .and that was it.  Like she had no idea whatsoever that this was not the thing someone would do if they were in a relationship with someone, much less newly engaged.

I do not understand her behavior and my T said that no matter how much I read, no matter how long I stay on this website, no matter how many people I talk to, it will not help me to understand her thinking.  My T said that people with BP process things differently in their mind than most people do.  So, how do you ever have a relationship with them of any real meaning?  

My husband and I had a discussion about all of this this morning and his feelings are that it is getting ridiculous - all the giving on our part, all the taking on their part with no recognition, appreciation, nothing in return.  My husband and I are on a fixed income and have to watch our dollars closely.  I called my son this morning to ask him about us getting our GS2 a bike for his 2nd birthday coming up and his thoughts on it.  We waited awhile, but then my husband needed to leave so he went ahead and picked it up while he was out.  (It is of course just a tricycle made for a 2-year-old).  I am so excited to give it to him and was excited when I told my son that Dad was out picking up GS2's first bike and all he said in return was, did we get a helmet?  I replied no, we are limited on resources, as you well know, so we could only get the bike.  

I think this kind of attitude along with dealing with his uBPD fiancee behavior (which is always so odd to us) and her parents as well is sometimes just too much to take.  Four years of this is getting old.  We don't see anything changing in the future, so it is kind of like, why are continuing to try?

My reason is to hopefully continue to have a relationship with my son, and to especially have one with my GS2.  It is very important to me that our GS2 realizes over the years (too young of course to understand now), but that we will always be there for him.  If things get tough or he is dealing with something, that he is not alone and we will always be his safe harbor, a place to be open, say what he needs to, let off steam, express hurt feelings, whatever it may be.  It is a gut feeling I have that we really need to do this for him because in view of what is happening now and what I have seen during the past 4 years, I believe he will need someone there for him.  

I hope I hit upon everything Kiawama!  Thanks so much for your input.

Thanks!
Angie

[Harri]

It is very important to me that our GS2 realizes over the years (too young of course to understand now), but that we will always be there for him.  If things get tough or he is dealing with something, that he is not alone and we will always be his safe harbor, a place to be open, say what he needs to, let off steam, express hurt feelings, whatever it may be.  It is a gut feeling I have that we really need to do this for him because in view of what is happening now and what I have seen during the past 4 years, I believe he will need someone there for him. 

Good Angie.  This goes back to what several of us were saying back in your second or third thread.  Be a source of support and a healthy example for your grandson.  All of us here either would have or did benefit from having someone who was a safe harbor for us.  Someone who could teach us boundaries and limits without being controlling and manipulative.  Someone who could demonstrate heathy responses rather than dysfunctional reactions.  To teach us how to handle stress and how to communicate without fear anger and hurt taking over. 

It is good to hear that these things are sinking in at a gut level.

[Angie59]

Thanks Harri for your response.  I really do see this clearly in my mind as well as feel it in my gut how important it is to do this for my GS2.  My love for him is inexplicable.  I want this connection with him to go on and it is scary that I may do something again (like blow up) that may make them stay away from us.  I know with my whole heart and soul I must get my anger under control.  I don't like the way I feel, and have felt for a long time and  I know I expressed it before on here, that I feel like I am living in fear sometimes because they have something so precious to me and I am so afraid I am going to screw it up and they will take him away from us completely. 

I have the book "Stop Walking on Eggshells" and well as the accompanying workbook to this.  I will be seeing my T this Tuesday so I will be discussing these things with her as well. 

It's hard feeling like this because it takes up so much of your head space.  I find myself, husband and other son talking about the whole situation quite a bit; probably way too much.

Angie

[No-One]

Hi Angie59:

My husband and I are on a fixed income and have to watch our dollars closely.  I called my son this morning to ask him about us getting our GS2 a bike for his 2nd birthday coming up and his thoughts on it.  We waited awhile, but then my husband needed to leave so he went ahead and picked it up while he was out.  (It is of course just a tricycle made for a 2-year-old).  I am so excited to give it to him and was excited when I told my son that Dad was out picking up GS2's first bike and all he said in return was, did we get a helmet?  I replied no, we are limited on resources, as you well know, so we could only get the bike.

I think this kind of attitude along with dealing with his uBPD fiancee behavior (which is always so odd to us) and her parents as well is sometimes just too much to take. 

You say you were very excited about the idea of a bike purchase.  Perhaps by impatiently pushing the bike purchase, you could have brought on a situation where your son seemed ungrateful to you. 

It could be beneficial for you to discuss the "bike" situation, and your feelings, during a therapy session.  Could you be unrealistically expecting gratitude from your son for things that you want (that mean more to you than him)? Could things have gone better with your son, if you gave him a reasonable amount of time to respond to the bike idea.  (a couple of hours isn't a reasonable amount of time)

Just thinking that sometimes we contribute to the outcome we don't like.  Based on what you wrote, here is a point of view to consider:

1.  You indicate that grandson's birthday is coming up (not that it is this weekend or being celebrated this weekend).  It appears as if you were impatient to get an answer from your son about the bike.

2. Even though you don't like your son's fiance, I would think that it would be prudent for your son to discuss a possible bike with her. You didn't give him that chance. In my opinion, it was unrealistic to call your son and expect a quick answer (within a couple of hours).

The chain of events on Saturday are a bit odd to me.  One way to interpret the chain of events is that you planned on making the purchase on Saturday and then tried to get your son's quick approval as an afterthought.  (hoping he would call back with a quick decision, before your husband left to make the purchase). 

3. Sounds like the bike idea was yours, and it is something you are excited about.  Some states have a helmet law for children riding bikes, so it might be a requirement.  No helmet = no bike riding.  If not a requirement, it is a good safety measure.  "Who would buy a helmet", was a necessary discussion.  How was your son to know if you were buying a helmet, with the bike, unless he asked? 

Just providing my thoughts from reading the quote. A beneficial thing that this website can provide is diversity of thought.  We can all read the same quote, but have different reactions.  I believe your above quote was intended to show that you son is ungrateful.  I came away from reading the example with other thoughts.

I'm sure your grandson will enjoy the bike, and you will enjoy watching him enjoy it.  If you expect a certain amount of displays of gratitude from your son and his fiance, you will likely be disappointed. Best to give within your boundaries (reasonable monetary expenditures for you and a reasonable time investment for you), for the joy of giving. For some gifts, it is appropriate to check with you son first, and give him a reasonable amount of time to respond with approval.

It can be be liberating to NOT get too hung up on whether or not people are grateful for what you give them, grateful enough, etc. 

[Angie59]

Hello everyone!

Thanks for replying NoOne and I certainly see why you might think the whole situation with the bike was something "we" wanted and not necessarily my son.  I think the lesson I just learned from reading your post is that I do not express myself carefully enough or thoroughly enough sometimes.  I'm sorry if I get confusing with things to the readers.

The idea of a tricycle had already been discussed with my son in the past - a much important point I see now should have been stated.  We talked about different ride-on toys, including the tricycle and we all wondered what he would be able to best ride on as he is on the smaller end of the scale for his age.  A tricycle or a ride-on toy was not new to speaking with my son. 

I do not communicate much with his uBPD fiance because as my T explained to me, people who have BPD do not process things as most people do.  I am always on edge when talking with her about anything really because I can see how she misconstrues things, gets insulted by things that were never meant to be insults, etc... .It is difficult for us (my husband and I) to really converse with her, so we keep the communication with her, sadly, to a minimum.

We have the receipt for the trike and can certainly return it if he feels he cannot get him a helmet right now or if there is a problem with it between him and his fiance.  It is not carved in stone that we have to keep that as his present; always an option.

Yes, I was excited to see him ride his first bike.  I'm not really sure that I feel bad about that though.  I feel it's kind of a normal, but maybe that's just me. 

Sorry for any misunderstanding I may have presented as I clearly did not state all I needed to.

As always, thank you for your reply.

Angie

[Notwendy]

Is it possible you misinterpreted why your son asked about a helmet?

My kids are older now, but I can imagine a call from a family member telling me they bought my child a bike for their birthday. While i hope I would say thank you first, I might also ask- did you buy a helmet for the purpose of knowing if I should go get one or not, not because I expected one.


My BPD mother listened in on my phone calls to my father. Sometimes his responses to me were short, cryptic, and tense. That's probably because he was WOE and one wrong word could set her off. If she wasn't listening on the other phone she was sitting next to him listening to as much as possible.

Let's imagine your son's fiancee is in earshot. She's angry at you ( from your last exchange) and he is in rescue mode. What do you think would happen if his response was warm and enthusiastic? "Gee mom thanks, that's great". That doesn't fit the "us against you" mode that might be keeping the peace. Maybe "did you get a helmet" is the most neutral response possible.

Right now you are feeling emotionally hurt, and you are also worried about your GS. But there is someone else hurting too and that is your son. Right now you feel hurt by him, but when people are hurting, they act out- sometimes with the one they are most secure with. It may not seem fair, but my father held boundaries better with me than with my mother because - there would be hell to pay for him if he did with her and not me. His helmet response could probably be more about his situation than his lack of appreciation for your gift. 
 

[Angie59]

Good morning!

Thank you NotWendy for your reply.  As with NoOne, this is what makes this site so wonderful!  You can get out of your tunnel vision and open your eyes to different perspectives, as both of you have done for me regarding purchase of the tricycle. 

Yesterday I told my son that we still have the receipt for the tricycle and if he feels it is not an appropriate gift for him right now, or for whatever reason, we would be happy to exchange it for something else; and we will.  He said he felt it was a great gift but just needed to know about whether he needed to purchase the helmet or not.

You are right, I am hurt right now.  My son does not seem to hold on to his anger and after we talk it over, we both ended up apologizing to each other and all seems okay.  With his uBPD finance, it is a different story.  I don't know if we will be invited to any celebration that may take place for our GS2's birthday.  If we are, will she even speak to us or acknowledge us?  You just never know. 

My son says he now refuses to get in the middle of things anymore.  He made a boundary for himself, which I think is healthy for him.  My feelings?  I'm being honest here and I know if I get replies, they will be honest and show another perspective, which I want and need.  My feelings to his not getting in the middle anymore is this:  She is your choice for a partner, we did not ask for her to be brought into our lives, so we now have this difficult person who we feel is totally unapproachable, yet we have to learn to approach her anyway if we should have anything that even resembles a relationship.  I sound like a little kid, I know.  Just getting my honest feelings out there.  I kind of feel deserted by him.  Strange huh?

[Panda39]

My son says he now refuses to get in the middle of things anymore.  He made a boundary for himself, which I think is healthy for him.  My feelings?  I'm being honest here and I know if I get replies, they will be honest and show another perspective, which I want and need.  My feelings to his not getting in the middle anymore is this:  She is your choice for a partner, we did not ask for her to be brought into our lives, so we now have this difficult person who we feel is totally unapproachable, yet we have to learn to approach her anyway if we should have anything that even resembles a relationship.  I sound like a little kid, I know.  Just getting my honest feelings out there.  I kind of feel deserted by him.  Strange huh?

Your son is making a healthy choice not only for himself but for everyone.  He has taken himself off of the drama triangle where frankly both you and his wife expect him to rescue both of you putting him in a no win situation.  The conflict is between you and his fiance and it isn't his job to fix, if you and she want to fix it it's up to you both, he is not deserting you he is expecting you and his wife to act like grown women and work it out. That doesn't mean that you have to be bosom friends.  It may be that you never have an ideal situation with his fiance we don't always get along with or like everyone but you are adult women who should be able to be civil with each other.  You and she both have choices regarding your relationship.  She can stop doing things that antagonize you and you can stop doing things that antagonize her, but that isn't happening right now, instead you are both escalating the drama.

We go back to you can control, you can't control what she does but you can control what you do.  What can you do to stop the escalation of tension between you and your son's fiance?

Panda39

[Notwendy]

So we now have this difficult person who we feel is totally unapproachable, yet we have to learn to approach her anyway if we should have anything that even resembles a relationship.


You do have choices. You feel like things are unfair to you and you are feeling abandoned. This puts you on the triangle as a victim- hurt by your son. You can take this perspective, but I believe he is not going to help with these feelings and as Panda says, you are taking a position against his fiancee and putting him in the middle. I can not predict his choices but if I had a million dollars to bet on it, I would bet most of it on him choosing her.


You can learn to deal with her in a different way- through the techniques on this board, perhaps some counseling. You do not have to be a doormat, as you can learn boundaries and emotionally mature ways for dealing with dysfunctional people. This opens the possibility that there could be a relationship with your son and his fiancee. They still have a choice and the outcome is not predictable but if I had a million dollars to bet, I'd put some of that money on the chance of having a relationship with them.

You don't bet a dime, take control of the whole situation and cut contact with them. You have made the choice and know the outcome. This puts you in control of the whole thing, you know the outcome, no gamble. But you have zero chance of a relationship with them.

People, and relationships are not predictable and it is hard to not feel a semblance of control but when it comes to other people- we really can not control them. We can only do what we feel is the best step for ourselves and know that the outcome isn't entirely up to us.

While this may not seem fair to you, when someone does the emotional work to learn to deal with a difficult person - the benefit is to the person doing the work. He/she gains the skills and then they can be helpful in all relationships. It is like the little red hen- you may be doing the emotional work in this relationship but you get to keep the skills. You might just find you benefit the most out of this.

[Angie59]

Hmm, not sure how to answer your question Panda, as to what we can do to not further escalate the tension between our son and his uBPD fiancee, other than just keep to ourselves and keep quiet.  I think the reason I say that is because I could give her a call right now and we could talk like two civil adults and have a great conversation and resolve some things between us.  OR, she could yell at me that she never wants to speak to me again and wants no contact with us at all.  OR she could do something in the middle.  Way too unpredictable for me, so that is why I feel we should just hang back and let the chips fall where they may.

If you have suggestions on what we can do, please share if you will.  I don't like things like this and I'm sure my son doesn't either.  However, I feel the way you described us as being grown women, acting like civil adults, etc., does not always ring true for those with uBPD.  My T told me that things get processed in their mind differently than most people process things, so this to me is a very rocky road to be on.  I don't really know how to approach her, or perhaps not approach her at all?  I have tried to approach her in the past over things similar to this and it always made things worse, so we don't have a good track record.

Thank you Panda for your reply.  Although I may sound defensive at times, I want you, as well as all that reply to my posts, that I do take your advice, comments etc and respect them.  Some I have already put into place.  Some seem too hard for me right now, but all of them are appreciated.

Angie

[Notwendy]

There isn't a way to have a conversation with someone and control what they will do. She may or may not be civil but you can still be.

She is who she is- and we can't control someone else. It can help to take the focus off her and on to you. You can be civil. You can stay calm and not be emotionally reactive to her. Yes your feelings matter but neither she or your son can help you with them. We can learn to manage our own feelings.

Middle ground is a good place to start with contact. It isn't reacting to anything they did or said. I'd say give them as much space as they need. If you babysit regularly then that is enough. Treat her like you would treat a colleague -be pleasant and try to stay out of drama. If she is hot headed and reactive - staying clam will not add to it. If you see a part of their lives you don't approve of - pictures , news of another man- that's not your business. This is your sons place to work out. Make this about your grandchild. If you are watching him then you are with him. Enjoy it.

If I were in your shoes I would not call to have a nice chat unless you have something to discuss like what time to be there. You could probably just text that. A nice chat about feelings may not be for now. Remember her birthday, give her affordable gifts at holidays- something small like a card for a coffee shop if she likes that - just a gesture that's special to her. Extend a hand but respect her space. She might bite it or not but if it is about you feeling you tried you can still feel that.

[Panda39]

What I am circling back around to is creating some boundaries for yourself.  Boundaries are not about punishing your son's fiance or him, they are about protecting yourself.

Limit the baby sitting if it is too much for you and your husband... .this doesn't mean that you never baby sit but maybe not as frequently is better for you.  You mentioned not wanting to discuss your son and his fiance's relationship with him, then don't that could be a boundary too.  Another boundary might be when you are at your son's house don't look at the offensive pictures on the tablet, or set a budget boundary,  if the tricycle for your grandson is too expensive for you and your husband then see if your son and wife will split the cost and share the cost of the helmet as well (that could be something nice that you do together and it doesn't bust your bank account) or you could set a boundary that you will not lose your cool with your son or his fiance, but instead decide to leave before you blow your top.  

You are in control of everything I've mentioned above.  You are in control of the decisions you make and approaches you take and in control of your emotions and how you express them.  I would suggest that everything I mentioned above would likely bring down your own anxiety level and help with your relationship with your son and his family.

Panda39