Is it over?

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

Last Friday I had to have my children removed from my UxBPDw.  They had only been there a short time that evening.  I am court ordered not to answer calls or text messages while they are in her care.  It is summer so they should have been with her for 10 days straight.  About 1.5 hours after being at her house they started calling me.  I could not answer and it is the hardest thing I have ever had to do in my life.  I cannot understand the courts decision on this one but that's not the issue right now.  The children couldn't get a hold of me so they called my step son.  He came running up stairs saying they were in trouble.  Here we go... .

My ex was drunk, or so they thought.  This was a huge problem when we were married.  I do not drink but she loves to tie it on.  She has been court ordered for 2 years to not drink within 12 hours of receiving the children.  Thirty days ago we sat in court and she professed to the judge she had not touched a drop of alcohol for a year.  Well she was something this evening.  They told me she was all over the place and could not stand.  They said she was slurring her words and had kept passing out.  When they called me she had puked and passed out on the kitchen floor.  I called for the EMT's.
The EMT's and Police arrive and she pops up like nothing is wrong.  She proceeds to tell the police that the children are just upset they have to stay with her for 10 days this month.  The police call in a false alarm and send the EMT's away.  I am still on the phone with one of my daughters.  I can hear what is going on.  The police start getting on the children that this is not right and they can't be calling the police because they don't want to be with her.  My ex starts arguing with the children and the police separate them.  They take the children outside and again start in on them.  My oldest daughter stops them and says "LOOK!".  Every time they had said anything about this they had been dismissed so they recorded it this time.  The officers thanked them after watching the video and then went back inside.  After 15 minutes the EMT's were called back and she was assessed.  Then I could hear her arguing with the police.  Only drunks argue with the police.  I waited 15 minutes then I asked to speak to an officer since I was the one to call.  I identified myself and read the court order to him.  He thanked me and said he would escort my children home. 
Today I have full custody of my children.  The police report reads that she was mixing her anti psychotics with alcohol.  She was higher than a kite.  I have begged her for years to get help.  Now she has nothing.  She couldn't even stay sober for 10 days to parent our children.  AND she called me that night and told me I set her up that it wasn't her fault.  She's stated that before in court that she doesn't know when her parenting time is, but she knew 10 days in advance this time that it was her parenting time.  Regardless she needs help and cannot see it yet.  One would think this is the end of the long hard road but it's not.  She will continue to be in our lives and attempt to make trouble or drama at every turn. 

[Anamika]

Last Friday I had to have my children removed from my UxBPDw.  They had only been there a short time that evening.  I am court ordered not to answer calls or text messages while they are in her care.  It is summer so they should have been with her for 10 days straight.  About 1.5 hours after being at her house they started calling me.  I could not answer and it is the hardest thing I have ever had to do in my life.  I cannot understand the courts decision on this one but that's not the issue right now.  The children couldn't get a hold of me so they called my step son.  He came running up stairs saying they were in trouble.  Here we go... .

My ex was drunk, or so they thought.  This was a huge problem when we were married.  I do not drink but she loves to tie it on.  She has been court ordered for 2 years to not drink within 12 hours of receiving the children.  Thirty days ago we sat in court and she professed to the judge she had not touched a drop of alcohol for a year.  Well she was something this evening.  They told me she was all over the place and could not stand.  They said she was slurring her words and had kept passing out.  When they called me she had puked and passed out on the kitchen floor.  I called for the EMT's.
The EMT's and Police arrive and she pops up like nothing is wrong.  She proceeds to tell the police that the children are just upset they have to stay with her for 10 days this month.  The police call in a false alarm and send the EMT's away.  I am still on the phone with one of my daughters.  I can hear what is going on.  The police start getting on the children that this is not right and they can't be calling the police because they don't want to be with her.  My ex starts arguing with the children and the police separate them.  They take the children outside and again start in on them.  My oldest daughter stops them and says "LOOK!".  Every time they had said anything about this they had been dismissed so they recorded it this time.  The officers thanked them after watching the video and then went back inside.  After 15 minutes the EMT's were called back and she was assessed.  Then I could hear her arguing with the police.  Only drunks argue with the police.  I waited 15 minutes then I asked to speak to an officer since I was the one to call.  I identified myself and read the court order to him.  He thanked me and said he would escort my children home. 
Today I have full custody of my children.  The police report reads that she was mixing her anti psychotics with alcohol.  She was higher than a kite.  I have begged her for years to get help.  Now she has nothing.  She couldn't even stay sober for 10 days to parent our children.  AND she called me that night and told me I set her up that it wasn't her fault.  She's stated that before in court that she doesn't know when her parenting time is, but she knew 10 days in advance this time that it was her parenting time.  Regardless she needs help and cannot see it yet.  One would think this is the end of the long hard road but it's not.  She will continue to be in our lives and attempt to make trouble or drama at every turn. 

[Panda39]

Hi Anamika,

I'm happy to hear your children are safely with you.    I'm sad that they had to go through that... .high drama with their mother.  Your daughter was a smart cookie  She handled a bad situation in a responsible way but boy that must have been hard for her, messed up or not that's still her mom.  Tough position for your daughter.

How old are your kids?  Are they getting any kind of therapy?  It could be beneficial for them to talk with someone outside of the situation.

Your right your ex will not magically disappear, but things can improve.

My SO's daughters were both done with their uBPDmom in  2015.  D21 has been no contact with her mother since then and D17 is low contact phone/texts, maybe the occasional coffee or lunch but these never go well.  Both girls made their own decision in spite of a custody agreement in their parents divorce decree. 

Their lives are much more stable, healthy and happy.  D21 has not attended therapy for several years and D17 still goes (she was diagnosed with PTSD).

I always support whatever relationship they choose to have or not have with their mom, and I always keep in mind she is still their mom and that there is anger, disappointment, guilt and love for her.  It is a complicated soup of emotions for them.  The best thing we can do is listen to our kids and show them another way to live.

Below is a link to "Raising Resilient Kids" that you might find helpful.
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=182254.msg1331459#msg1331459

Keep loving those kids and take care of you too 
Panda39

[ForeverDad]

The kids were smart to call your stepson.  They should never give up seeking help.

Also they were smart to document her behavior.  (Legally, I would think it hard to order kids not to record something, especially when it can help the police or other professionals to assess an incident.  Lots of people deny poor behaviors, just as she did and notice how the police at first believed her and stepped back.

A similar pattern can be evident when a person threatens suicide and then when they responders and professionals arrive, they emphatically deny it.  (Hey, even reasonably normal people don't want to look bad.)  Having a recording reveals the raw truth.

Be aware that court and the professionals will probably be inclined to relax this order where you have custody at this time once they see her making seeming progress with compliance.  One problem is that if/when visits are allowed again, the court will typically view the relapse as resolved and everything back to normal.  You know it isn't, there is high risk of it occurring again.  You don't want the kids to have to go through this all over again.  Perhaps try to find some way for any future orders to grant you authority to have on-the-spot responsibility to assess any bad situations and suspend visits, with her the one required to file for the professionals to review everything before restoring them.  That wouldn't be a typical order but you know best how things are going and you woudn't have to wait for police, CPS or court to figure things out.

Edit:  Another thought.  She told court she hasn't drunk for a year?  Did anyone take a photo of her stash?  Having photos of bottles or cans of alcohol will speak louder than volumes of testimony.  And expect her to claim she didn't know there could be a reaction to mixing meds with drinking.

[livednlearned]

Last Friday I had to have my children removed from my UxBPDw.

That had to be so awful, Anamika. I cannot even begin to imagine how distressing it is to be told you can't answer calls from your own kids. I mean. Gah. Who comes up with this stuff?

My son and I went through a similar episode to what you describe, but he (then 11) was too afraid to do anything, so lay as still as possible in bed    .

His dad combined prescription pills with alcohol and he seemed to have what appeared to be a psychotic episode, which I only know about because he blew up my phone with voicemails, emails, texts, instant messages for 12 straight hours all night long. With S11 in the house. Most terrifying night of my life, trying to figure out if the cops would consider ex inebriated enough to remove our son. Their words to me were, "It's not illegal to drink in your own home." And texts that said, "You will never see S11 again" were not considered a threat because there was no description of how he planned to carry this out. Apparently even if there is a court order that says no drinking a day before visitation, the cops cannot remove the child because it's a civil issue, not criminal.

She has been court ordered for 2 years to not drink within 12 hours of receiving the children.  Thirty days ago we sat in court and she professed to the judge she had not touched a drop of alcohol for a year

 

It sounds like your court order was similar to mine, in that there were loopholes big enough to drive a truck thru.

If you have to go back to modify the court order, do you have suggestions for tightening up those loopholes? My ex's psychosis was the beginning of the end of visitation, but court gave ex many many bites of the apple before it was all over.

That psychotic episode taught me a lot about how things work in family law court. They don't understand how PDs work so I had to figure out how to use court processes to protect my son.

Today I have full custody of my children.

What a relief! It made me emotional to read that the kids are safe with you.

She will continue to be in our lives and attempt to make trouble or drama at every turn.  

You have done something right to raise kids who advocate for themselves like that. To have the presence of mind to record their mom, and then to overrule a cop who is downsplaining to them is admirable beyond words. I'm so sorry they had to experience that, for all of you, and hope your family can find some peace going forward.

It is tragic when BPD parents use alcohol and drugs to cope. And even more tragic when court can do virtually nothing until it gets so out of control.

[david]

If you go to court make sure you get the police report. Also, you need consequences. Perhaps having supervised visitation until a certain length of time where ex is randomly tested for drugs and alcohol.
I have a friend that got full custody of her grandson. Her son passed away and the mom had substance abuse issues. The court ordered supervised visitations and drug tests. The mom came to visitations obviously on drugs. The supervisor refused to let her see the child. It happened more than once. The mom was also required to get drug tests at specific times. She did not. After two years the courts took all her parental rights away. The judge actually told grandmom that if dna mom came to the house she was to not let her in and to call the police. The judge said she would be arrested if she did. That was around three years ago and the dna mom has yet to get any help.
Do what you need to protect the children.

[Anamika]

Hi Anamika,

I'm happy to hear your children are safely with you.    I'm sad that they had to go through that... .high drama with their mother.  Your daughter was a smart cookie   She handled a bad situation in a responsible way but boy that must have been hard for her, messed up or not that's still her mom.  Tough position for your daughter.

I have always told the children since we parted that they always have to have a relationship with their mother.  I been fighting to ensure it is safe for them and on their terms since mom has so many demons she cannot control.  These girls have come so far and been so strong in the face of so many things.  Her attorney actually put our oldest on the stand earlier this year.  I couldn't believe it.  

How old are your kids?  about 15 and 17.

Are they getting any kind of therapy? It could be beneficial for them to talk with someone outside of the situation.  
Yes we have had them in counseling.  I just stopped it this week.  I have been trying to get them a new counselor because my children have said repeatedly that they are gained up on from mom and the counselor.  I went to a counseling session a couple weeks ago and sat in after they were removed from her care.  I was so dumbfounded.  The counselor asked the children "To be fair did mom know you were coming over?"  I let that go for a minute and waited to see where she was going.  Then the counselor asked "If mom is drunk is there a safe place you can go?"  I stopped the session and said no wait a minute.  You are putting the blame and responsibility on the children for discerning whether mom is able to parent them.  Then out of the blue my ex says "Well it's not my fault."  I turned to her and asked who made her drink that evening?  Who opened that bottle of pills and alcohol and dumped it down your throat?  Then I asked if she understood what just happened in court last week.  I explained by signing over parenting rights to me she had avoided 3 counts of contempt of court, a CPS review, possibly losing her job as a nurse and jail time.  I have asked the GAL, Casa Worker, my attorney, her counselor, and the children's counselor to help her.  Every single one of them told me the exact same thing.  They cannot help her until she asks for help.  As you can guess it was a tense hour of me against the counselor and her.  I told them that night I would be in every counseling session from here on out because they were not going to blame these children anymore for her poor behavior.
So the next week I got an email from the counselor asking me not to come because it wasn't productive.  I did exactly what she had done for over a year to all me emails begging her to help my ex.  I didn't respond.  When she came to get the children from the waiting room she was shocked to see me and asked if I had gotten her email.  I stated yes I did and responded just as she had for over a year.  She was mad as a wet hornet and asked to speak to me privately.  So we went back to her office and I sat down.  She started to speak and I stopped her and said "Why should I allow you to counsel my children any further?  What plan do you have to protect my children now that you have documented proof from the sheriff stating she has a problem and I've been stating this for 2 years?"  I referenced all my emails and no responses and she stated she had told my ex she had a problem last week.  I told her I would get her a gold star sticker but she was a year late.  After 30 minutes I agreed to two more sessions but if the children were not making progress or not improving then I would no longer bring them to her.  Needless to say they will not go back to her.  

[Anamika]

Edit:  Another thought.  She told court she hasn't drunk for a year?  Did anyone take a photo of her stash?  Having photos of bottles or cans of alcohol will speak louder than volumes of testimony.  And expect her to claim she didn't know there could be a reaction to mixing meds with drinking.

She's a nurse and is on tape telling the officer she is a nurse and wouldn't do that.  Then 15 minutes later she admits she had taken her anti-psychotics with alcohol when the EMT's assess her and give her a sobriety test. 

[Anamika]

You have done something right to raise kids who advocate for themselves like that. To have the presence of mind to record their mom, and then to overrule a cop who is downsplaining to them is admirable beyond words. I'm so sorry they had to experience that, for all of you, and hope your family can find some peace going forward.

It is tragic when BPD parents use alcohol and drugs to cope. And even more tragic when court can do virtually nothing until it gets so out of control.

Thank you, I can't begin to say how proud of these two I am.  My youngest has went from ok grades to top 10% of her high school class.  My oldest has chosen to be a doctor and will be starting med school in the fall.  When she told her mom what she wanted to do her mom told her she couldn't do that and would never follow through and probably drop out.  She even went so far as to go the the doctor's office my daughter works for and ask the doctor to talk her out of it!    I will never understand why she cannot build them up and let them fly.  Her abandonment issues are off the scale. 

[Panda39]

More power to you Anamika regarding the Therapist!

We also had issues with one of the therapists that saw my SO's daughters.  The Therapist was selected by their uBPDmom and couldn't manage boundaries.  Mom actually crashed her daughter's session, took it over and made it all about her.  She was slow to respond to their dad too.

Unfortunately, the court awarded mom Therapy "decision making" (I know... .talk about putting the fox in charge of the hen house!) so dad couldn't get the girls moved.  Eventually the Therapist moved her practice but uBPDmom said she would "follow her to the ends of the earth!"      Luckily for the girls that didn't happen.  Unluckily (the first therapist was ineffective) and Luckily for their younger daughter a suicide threat landed her inpatient where she finally got real support and was assigned to a really good Therapist who could manage mom.

Feeling your pain 
Panda39

[Anamika]

Well the peace didn't last long.  My UxBPDw added all of use to a text and then began swearing at me for about an hour.  I tried to stop her and she said maybe they'll see what a piece of S*** I really am.  Once she was done there I got a couple personal messages.  

Obviously she is not getting help yet and does not recognized she has a problem even after the girls counselor has stated she needs help.  This really upset the children and ruined our entire plans and evening.  She has threatened before that she wanted to die and go to heaven.  The children asked if they could go check on her and as I always do said of course.  
So she texts them to get a reaction and they feel really bad and guilty that they are not seeing her.  They can't see in this moment that she is manipulating them.  Before they left I tried to explain this gently to them without beating mom up.  When they returned they said well it's the same old thing.  She was slurring her words and had trouble focusing.  She blames you for everything Dad and told them to leave and not come back.  These pity me guilt trips are not doing her any good.  Is this the FOG?  I just have a funny feeling she is working up the nerve or anger to try to take me back to court and fight the last order.  

[david]

It sounds like she is projecting a lot. Mixing drugs and alcohol into the mix makes things even more challenging for you and the kids. She might be using the drugs and alcohol to avoid facing the reality of the situation she put herself in.

[livednlearned]

My ex drank and took prescription pills and never admitted he had a problem, too.

I got a glimpse of insight one day when it occurred to me that he doesn't have a real self. Therefore, how could he possibly take responsibility for that self?

It's hard to imagine not having one, but I think that's the missing piece that makes so much of this behavior confusing.

How could someone pass out on the bedroom floor and get his own poop all over himself and not be affected? But instead he saw my revulsion and attacked me for holding my breath. He yelled I was acting as though my poop didn't stink.

I remember that day thinking maybe today is his rock bottom. Getting poop all over you after a bender sure sounds like bottom to me, pardon the pun.

But I don't know if a PD/substance abuse combo has a rock bottom.

He lost custody and still drinks. So... .