Do unto others as you would have them do unto you (I don't get to use this)

[formflier]

So... I tried really hard to contain my laughter... .I think my wife understands her desire to have it both ways... and felt badly about it.  She dysregulated some... .I left her hollering in the kitchen.


So... .I'm up doing some things working on a final.  I had washed some rags and laid them out to dry under a ceiling fan (everyone else is asleep).  I had been worried their may be an oily smell in the washing machine... .there was a hint of one.

Anyway I washed some other rags with bleach to try and get rid of  smell.

At some point my wife gets up... .folds and puts away the rags (without asking my plans for them)... .she put them in the kitchen drawer... .we talked last night and she insisted they should go to garage, which I agreed (clean rags only in the kitchen)

She takes out the other rags and comments that there is an "oily smell" to the washing machine.  She then put some stuff in the washer but didn't start it.

I mentioned I was sorry about the oily smell and would take care of it... .she doesn't respond.

I get the washing machine cleaner... .take out the clothes she had in there, put in cleaner and as I'm about to hit the button she storms in room and flips out.

"YOU don't take out stuff I've put in the washer!"

me... befuddled "but... .they will smell oily?"

she says "I'm fine with that!"

incredulous "you want our clothes to smell oily?"

she "yes... I'm fine with that"

I ask "so what do you want to do here?"

She says "well... you've already put stuff in... .so you are being a control person... you'll get your way"

I start the washing machine

She grumps about "do unto others " (she had used this verse on me before... yesterday)

Anyway... I say "Exactly FFw... .I think that is the perfect verse... .and I think we should follow it."

She says "you didn't follow it"

I said :  you were helpful in putting away stuff I was working on when it was done... without asking so I figured I would be helpful and fix the oily smell.

she said "you have to use that verse to show others how to treat you... .it's how you set expectations for others to treat you.

(grinning to myself)  Exactly... .you showed me this morning that you are fine putting away things without asking and being helpful, so... I thought of this verse and concluded that you would want me to be helpful without asking you.  :)o unto others as you would have them do unto you... .right FFw?

she says "You don't get to use that verse!"    

I walked out of room.

She hollered for a bit... .I decided to go work one of my MBA assignments at a restaurant and get out of the "atmosphere" at home...

So... .thoughts?  If they insist on a train of logic and that logic bites them in the a$$... .should I "rescue them" from that?

I mean... .I am the one being consistent here... .right?

FF

[Enabler]

What was the positive benefit for you continuing to assert any kind of point here?

My sense is you... .I... .we... .walk away from these skirmishes and think "yeaaaaaaaaaah... .bossed that, I totally did her with her own logic", whereas she walks away thinking ":)!ck!".

At the point she says "I'm fine with that!"... .that's the point where you walk away and you get to think to yourself ":)!ck".

I love a skirmish, my friends and I will skirmish over any topic, dust down and crack on, it's a lad thing, a bit like a bundle in the school field. You never bundled girls, they cry and tell the teacher, why are you trying to have a bundle with your wife, you know she cries and sulks. Super hollow victory isn't it?

[formflier]

What was the positive benefit for you continuing to assert any kind of point here?
 

I can twist myself into gymnastics and see it this way... .

Isn't it more likely her point... .she is the one that wants to set a standard of "do unto others"... .so... .should I refuse to discuss her point?  That would lead me to "assume" a stance I don't believe it... .which is to NOT do unto others as they would.

While I prefer to be asked ahead of time... I'm ok with people continuing needed work without asking.

I'm also ok with asking first.  I'm not ok with one person having one standard and another using a different standard.

She brought it up... I didn't.

And ultimately... .if this leads to my wife organizing her thoughts in such a way that she thinks I'm a D$ck... .I can embrace that.  I'm ok with that.  I'll trust that at some point she will see it a different way... .or choose to live in her world.  Her choice... not mine.

Said another way... I'll organize my thinking... .she can organize hers.


FF

[formflier]

At the point she says "I'm fine with that!"... .that's the point where you walk away and you get to think to yourself ":)!ck".
 

So... what would you suggest I have done at this point?

Clothes out... machine full of cleaner... .wife "making her points".

FF

[Enabler]

Down tools... .walk out... .

Sentiment being: I don't play these games, I was trying to do the right thing, if you can't see that, that's your problem but I'm not explaining that to you and I'm not rolling in the mud with you.

She clearly thought she had organised her thoughts in as far as she tee'd something up to be done. She wanted to win the skirmish and was damned if she was going to yield over her oversight of something trivial like oily smell. She just runs down the rabbit warren with you chaser behind her destroying the p!ssed logic she smashed together on the fly whilst in a panic. ":)o unto others" was probably the last thing she read on a the weekly church newsletter she just threw in the trash moments before she reacted to you and dysregulated. Once she said it, it became 'her stance'. Each interaction becomes binary... .win lose... .but in reality no one wins.

I have this daily, over pretty much anything and everything. It's pretty much the only level of communication we have, I just down tools and walk away... .it's becoming more inconvenient for W than it is for me.

[formflier]

and the laundry... .?

Based on prior interactions... .it would sit there... .for days... .

As in... I wouldn't nor she wouldn't clean out the cleaner or run the cycle.

And... .running clothes in it with cleaner in it is disastrous to clothes.

And... .if she destroys clothes... .I have the tools in hand to cut ensure future clothes purchases are made only by her... .but the "impact" of that on the relationship in its entirety... .would likely be more negative than what happened here today (by my choice... .our money is separate... although I contribute most towards household... since I earn a bunch more than she does)

I do see your point... and if is was "just" a "skirmish" over words... .I'd say I'd lean your way.  As I see it... there are other variables in play.

Not trying to argue with you... .just trying to examine this from all angles.

FF

[flourdust]

Hey, ff. You post a lot of these anecdotes. As you like to say, big picture time... .

Everything you post sounds like a cold war - she gets hot, you retreat behind boundaries, and then you both indulge in low-level seething ... .her in muttered comments behind closed doors, you in posting your anecdotes here.

So, big picture - what's the temperature of your overall relationship with your wife? Is it all like this? 50% of the time? 90%? 10%? Trending up or down? What happens when you aren't in cold war mode?

[Enabler]

If she runs the cycle with the cleaner in (which she knows because you told her you had put cleaner in it) she’s a fool and as you say will ruin her clothes and she will buy new ones with her funds... .but my guess is she will huff and puff and covertly realise you were right, crawl out of her rabbit hole and probably run the cycle  ex the clothes and pretend it all hadn’t happened. In this example she can’t really put you in perpetrator spot because all you did was act the victim and metaphorically ran away to cry (at worst), no one is fighting over being the victim and you can move on.

If the washing stays on the floor, you come back a while later and put on the cycle, accepting that she hasn’t taken action because you know she is conflicted between winning and doing the thing that makes rational sense. No one need know and no big deal. After it’s finished replace her clothes and state kindly “the washing machine is now ready for you babes, would you like me to pop it on for you?” You can pretend nothing happened, it’s a blip, she might if you’re lucky feel a smidge of embarrassment over her pver reaction and THERES NO LOVE LOST AND MO COLD WAR.

The act of leaving it on the floor for days is childish by both of you and you are then playing games. The act of walking away is saying “this is what it is, you think you know a solution, you find out what that is on your own. I’m removing myself from this situation as I don’t want conflict. Conflict = you solving problems on your own”.

Like I said, I like arguing, I actually find it fun... .I would say my career thrives on it... .BUT some people at certain times  are not worth arguing with whatever the costs.

[formflier]

If she runs the cycle with the cleaner in (which she knows because you told her you had put cleaner in it) she’s a fool and as you say will ruin her clothes and she will buy new ones with her funds... .but my guess is she will huff and puff and covertly realise you were right, crawl out of her rabbit hole and probably run the cycle  ex the clothes and pretend it all hadn’t happened. In this example she can’t really put you in perpetrator spot because all you did was act the victim and metaphorically ran away to cry (at worst), no one is fighting over being the victim and you can move on.
 

It would be rare for her to finish what I'm doing... .run the cleaner cycle.

Usually when she says stuff like "your going to do what you are going to do anyway" (or words to that effect)... .i eventually end up doing what I'm going to do anyway because there is no effective communication from her about what exactly she would be satisfied with as a compromise or way forward.

When asked for a compromise she generally will say "well... not that... .and not that" and will rarely say "this will be sufficient"

Luckily it is less than 50/50 on her doing destructive things... but it is a consideration.  Given the relative "thaw" in our finances and our talks.  She actually is polite when it comes up. 

I considered that potential future boundary enforcement on messed up clothes... would be painful and I wanted to avoid that.

(perhaps I used "fear" there... and I shouldn't have... .debatable point)

Thoughts?

FF

[formflier]

So, big picture - what's the temperature of your overall relationship with your wife? Is it all like this? 50% of the time? 90%? 10%? Trending up or down? What happens when you aren't in cold war mode?

Big picture:  I suspect i am fairly close to as good as the relationship can improve, without both parties actively working under the same "guidance" or "therapy".

Basically... I work with psychologist and my wife "works with" a twisted view of scripture (in my opinion).

She has declared all "secular" methods "sinful" and "evil".

So... .my "big picture" take on it... is that recently there is more conflict because more time together.  When she is pleasant... .we have a good time together.  When she gets "in the mood" for flamethrowing... .it really depends on the "facts on the ground" whether I withdraw, deflect or sometimes "fight back".

This morning... .I see what I did as "holding the line" versus... .fighting back or "escalating".  

My point of departure with flour dusts post is that I would agree my wife is or was in some level of "seething"... .reasonable based on what I saw and described.

I certainly don't feel that way... .don't think I'm seething... .and it's not my intention.  

I'm trying to portray a more "nonchalant" approach so if she wants to "use a Bible verse"... .I'm fine with that... let's apply it and see where it goes.  If it pisses her off... .oh well... .if it makes he happy... oh well.

Vice me trying to "manage her moods"

Perhaps another way is I'm trying to find the humor in it... .because hypocritical people can be quite humorous, when trying to apply a standard to someone else... .and not apply it to themselves.

I certainly could have an angry or seething reaction, I'm trying to consciously not do that.  But if it appears so... .please let me know.

Part of the reason I want to post here is to make sure I'm examining it from all angles.  Many times I see something I could do differently.

Did I answer your question?

FF

[Cat Familiar]

I won’t address many specifics here, but rather a general pattern.

With pwBPD, I often see an inatentiveness and lack of mindfulness: her putting the smelly towels in the kitchen drawer after previously talking about putting them in the garage.

This can be very confusing and vexing to a partner who is highly logical. But it is just another manifestation of the whimsical way pwBPD move through the world.

They can so easily disrupt patterns, break agreements, change their minds—all based upon the mood du jour, or the momentary whim. This is so confusing to those of us who believe our word is our bond.

Then, when questioned, they easily justify their current behavioral mode and become indignant when the disparity between what they previously agreed to and how their current behavior is questioned.

I see a lot of this pattern happening between you and your wife, FF. You want her behavior “to make sense” and to point it out when it doesn’t and have her understand how peculiar it is for you to deal with such inconsistent logic.

You may get an occasional glimmer of understanding from her, but more often, this desire of yours will trigger an angry response. You are under stress from your MBA studies, in addition to all the other daily stress of living with a large family and coparenting with a pwBPD.

My question to you is why would you trigger her further, when no good can come from that. (Hat tip to Grey Kitty for that phrase.)

I know how I’d respond to that question. I purposely engage in small skirmishes with my husband because most of the time I’m on my best behavior and often biting my lip so as to not make things worse. Dammit, some times I just want to be my real unfettered self and respond the way I could if my spouse was emotionally healthy!

[flourdust]

Yeah, seething was a pretty charged word, and I can understand why you would push back against it. As I wrote it, I thought it wasn't quite right. Let's say instead that you and she are both releasing some frustration about your relationship in different ways. Trying to see humor in it and typing up the narrative to share here (to get some validation or commiseration) is a coping mechanism. Possibly a healthy one, but it's coping in regards to a distressful situation.

Back to my original big picture question... .your evaluation is that this is about as good as your relationship can get. So... .10% cold war? 90% What's the estimate? Good as it gets may be true but also may not be stable. Or it may not be survivable.

[Fian]

This is a pet peeve of mine, weaponizing the Bible.  I hate how my wife will take a verse and then try and use it against me.  When I read ":)o unto others as you would have them do unto you," I take that to be something for me to personally strive for.  My wife, and yours, sees that verse, and thinks that is how people should treat them.  And if you expect the world to act like saints towards you, you are going to be disappointed.  But for a person with BPD (although my wife probably doesn't have it), having lots of ammo to blame others is just what they want.

[Red5]

... .My question to you is why would you trigger her further, when no good can come from that.

I purposely engage in small skirmishes with my husband because most of the time I’m on my best behavior and often biting my lip so as to not make things worse.

... .Dammit, some times I just want to be my real unfettered self and respond the way I could if my spouse was emotionally healthy!

I also do this... .and quite often here of late,  

... .in a "playful way"... .playing with fire sometimes albeit, my/BPDw will sometimes say the silliest things to me, and she is completely serious (?)... .so I just play along, .at her expense, .but seriously, better to do that, then engage in "correction", because I know where that goes, .so there you have it.

Red5

[Cat Familiar]

... .playing with fire sometimes albeit ... .but seriously, better to do that, then engage in "correction", because I know where that goes, ... .

Yeah, sometimes I feel the weight of too many words unsaid and I just want to be entirely candid for a moment. But the consequences that come with that--hours of silent treatment or at least a day of sullen "hurt"--typically not worth it. But sometimes, I just don't care. I choke under the yoke of "being the better person" and I just want to be "real" for a minute. Nine times out of ten, I remind myself that being totally honest is just not worth the consequences. But that tenth time... .wooh haw!

[formflier]

Back to my original big picture question... .your evaluation is that this is about as good as your relationship can get. So... .10% cold war? 90% What's the estimate? Good as it gets may be true but also may not be stable. Or it may not be survivable.

Umm... so before the summer schedule I would say we were at 80% solid... normal (whatever that is worth).  Then 15% grumpy b$tchy and about 5% pure whacko.   But the whacko stuff is so out there... .it is incredibly easy to ignore.  (hope that makes sense)

Let's break the 80% into 20-30 percent really good.  Usually that was at a date and time of my choosing.

So... with my P... .one of the observations is that my wife can't handle intimacy and likely won't unless she does a serious course of work to "re-organize" her thoughts.  My P is better at predicting what my wife will say... than I am.  Many times I will say "I did xyz and then said abc... "  P will say "I bet ffw said or did (blank)... .and she is pretty close to 100% accurate.  

Anyway... .the "gameplan" is that I keep her at a slight "pull"... .she is "pulling" me closer and I'm kinda pulling away and then for short times when I want "a normal marriage" (think nice date or couple days away)... I do that.  

Knowing full well that after we get close... .sh$t will hit the fan... at some point... about something.  Then... .I let it burn itself out.

The summer schedule is weird because we are so close to each other a lot.

She seems to have increase the "grumpy" part... I don't think I've seen any whacko in a while.  

My "visual".  In my mind... she wants to discuss scripture and then beat herself up twisting it... .that's her choice.  I do get I could walk away... .that would somewhat validate "he won't talk Bible with me"

So... not that I'm attacking her with the Bible... .but if she chooses to run into my views time and time again... I don't feel responsible for "clearing the road for her".

Hope that visual makes sense.

FF

[formflier]

So... .Thursday mornings I have a men's group where we do accountability and encourage each other in our Christian walk and leadership.  A big part of that is where we talk about a point in time in the past week where we felt "closest" and "farthest" from the Lord and to help each other seek a better way forward.

So... .Thursdays are a natural day of "reflection" for me.

The point of this post is to circle back to Flourdust's question/urging to be introspective about my relationship.  I'll extend that to looking at my life.  For reference to where my thinking comes from see the thread below

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=326109.msg12976467#msg12976467


I'm happy with my life, yet my marriage is NOT the source of much of that happiness.  Sure... the marriage fulfills some "needs" and occasionally is a source of happiness, but not a reliable source.

Needs:  Sex, I sleep better with my wife in bed... vice alone, logistically... having another adult usually makes family logistics run smoother (not meant to be a complete list... but give the flavor)

When I think of relationships I think of a "two way flow" where I "put energy into it" and usually "something comes back" that builds me up.

Frankly, all of my other relationships are that way.  I put out extra effort and it's "shocking" when something "doesn't" come back.

In my marriage, I'm "surprised" when something comes back.  I enjoy it when it does.

So... .that's where I'm at.  In that link I can honestly say "I'm able to be happy"... and I can stay there "most of the time".  My wife is sometimes happy, but that is not generally how she is.

And... .if I am correct that the relationship has progressed or gotten better or "as good as it can get" with "just me" focusing on making healthy changes, where does that leave me.  Offhand, I think that sums up why I'm mostly on conflicted, vice bettering.

It's not that I don't put energy into my marriage, but given "extra" energy... .I rarely decide to put that towards my marriage.

Cat Familiar said this earlier.

 But sometimes, I just don't care.

Nine times out of ten, I remind myself that being totally honest is just not worth the consequences. But that tenth time... .wooh haw!

This is pretty much me.  I kinda see this happening yesterday with the subject of this post.  Perhaps it is deeper.

So... couple days ago my wife tossed all the damp laundry out of the dryer onto the floor and left it (no... she didn't ask).  She was dysregulating and upset that she couldn't find shirts for the kids.

While that was certainly as preposterous as her take on "do unto others"... .I never once considered "bringing it up to her".  Once she went to Vacation Bible School... .I put the clothes back in and finished the drying.  I chuckled to myself about it... but it didn't "hook" me.

Likely because I don't "care".

I "care" about the Bible and "proper interpretation".  I really don't see any other way to interpret what she was using... it's kinda Christianity 101.  If I treat someone someway and they like it, and they treat me back the same way... and I hate it... .then change the way you treat them in the first place... .vice yammer away and them to "love you" and do as you say... .not as you do.

So... .I'm looking for ideas on how to proceed about "things I care about".  

There is zero chance that I will ever "agree with a wrong Bible reading".  Zero... hard boundary.  And again... there are lots of debatable verses where there are "allowable" (in my world) disagreements.

Should I just decline to further discuss the Bible.  Is that better than saying I'll discuss it and when it gets weird "back away".   (I obviously don't have much success at "backing away"

Anyway... .open season.  I'm interested in all your thoughts.

FF

[flourdust]

So you describe the ratio in your marriage relationship as 20% good 60% detached 15% bad 5% really bad. Let's call them green, yellow, red, and flaming red.

The 15% red/5% flaming red zones you are probably most attentive to -- if this ratio goes up (especially the really bad zone), that's a problem and a sign that things may be destabilizing. You mentioned that this ratio is changing with more proximity in the summer. Thoughts about this? I'd be cautious in thinking that it will return to equilibrium when summer ends ... .as I'm sure you know, relationships don't snap back just like that. (I recall you thinking that once your most recent move was completed, things would stabilize -- instead, they got worse for a period of time.)

But the 60% yellow zone is also an area of concern. Disengagement can feed your wife's sense of abandonment, leading to an increase in the red zones. These are interrelated, not separate. It's also not good for a healthy relationship even between two stable people. Where would you characterize yourself in Gottman's taxonomy of types of couples?

https://www.gottman.com/blog/the-5-couple-types/

When the red zones aren't growing, think about what you can do to increase the green zone.

[formflier]

I had never read that before.

We are definitely hostile-detached.

I would modify the description a bit to indicate that "most" of the time "bids" are put out to fight or she "probes" me... I deflect or don't engage.  

However... .if I do pick something to engage on, I don't back down... .almost ever.  (not wanting intermittent reinforcement)

"Trust" is interesting.  I won't speak to her trust of me, since that is widely a moving target.

You know me and boundaries.  I "wall off finances" and I essentially only trust her a hundred bucks or so at a time.  She has her own income, so I rarely seek out her involvement with finances.  

Emotions:  I don't trust her with mine.

Sex:  I would be shocked if I found out there were some involvement with someone else.

Parenting:  If we can "wall off" religion from this, I generally trust her.  In most cases her religious views actually help because she wants to "appear" to obey me.  Example of distrust:  her "today I'll teach you guys how to figure out who is a "real" Christian."  (I shut that down quickly and firmly)  I wouldn't be shocked if she tries to "get those lessons" in privately with kids.  My interpretation is that they humor her and understand the quickest way through is to listen and leave... .vice try to argue or ask questions.

Anyway... .the question of what can I do to improve the "green" is likely to put more energy into it.  Which I'm not willing to do, since when "more energy appears" I generally "spend it" on myself... or relationships with my kids.

I do have a fairly stead amount of "input" (date nights and other overt things that "signal" I'm still interested).  I've held those roughly constant for a while.
There is an argument that could be made that more "input" towards green would actually drive us further apart (push/pull)

Thoughts?

FF

[flourdust]

Hostile-detached couples are most likely to divorce without a serious course correction.

There is an argument that could be made that more "input" towards green would actually drive us further apart (push/pull)

Say more about that, please.

[formflier]

Hostile-detached couples are most likely to divorce without a serious course correction.

Say more about that, please.

So... .an observation/recommendation by my P that has resulted in serious reduction in conflict.

Honestly... it feels a bit manipulative, but... .I try to be pragmatic as well.  Whatever calms things... is usually good.

There is a part of my wife's disorder (whatever we call it) that can't handle intimacy for too long.

So... .I make a point to slightly "lean away" from her so that she usually is trying to "pull" me in slightly.  From time to time when I want to be intimate I go for it... .we are close for a while and then some sort of "push" or "sabotage" happens.  I don't react... and we go back to her with a "light pull" and me with "just a touch of lean away".

The odd departure from this is snuggling in bed.  Again at my Ps recommendation, I started staying in bed and snuggling (90% non sexual) in the morning before she would go to work.  This was instead of getting up , doing family Bible study ... .nice breakfast... etc etc.

So... we would snuggle for 30... sometimes 45 minutes.  She would get up and be out the door in 15 minutes.

Massive decrease in conflict and apparent increase in "happiness" (very relative).

It doesn't work in the summer because I can stay in bed for two hours... .if I leave before she wants me to... I'm still an A$$hole.  This is getting somewhat better... .will talk with P about it on Friday.

FF

[kokomo]

Yes, you are consistent. That's why it bothers her. My friend uses Scripture on me and other church members all the time. Similar struggle, just different type of relationship.

kokomo

[Enabler]

What would happen if you had a legit reason to get out of bed in the summer at a certain time, that reason being to her benefit? The snuggling sounds awesome, but 2 hours you’re going to have a dead arm.

[formflier]

What would happen if you had a legit reason to get out of bed in the summer at a certain time, that reason being to her benefit? The snuggling sounds awesome, but 2 hours you’re going to have a dead arm.

Yeah... .so I just say I have stuff to do, usually studying... .and then off I go.

This is pretty high on my list to chat with P about tomorrow.  I need to pick something and bit consistent.

FF

[Enabler]

Okay, I seem to find that anything involving putting X in front of W where she doesn’t directly benefit causes conflict. She measures her ‘weird love’ by devotion. Wanting to do something for myself to break intimacy with her is rejection (obviously all historical as we’ve not been intimate for some years now). Your study = for you.

 No one wants to enjoy a 45 min snuggle (investment if nothing else) only for that investment to be wiped out with a sad ending. What things does she approve of you breaking intimacy for? Coffee? Breakfast? A poo?

You know how to get her to baseline... .somehow you need a way to keep her there!

[BetterLanes]

Flourdust, thanks for posting that article link! Definitely hostile-detached here too.

Formflier, did you spot and/or read the linked article about the Four Horsemen?
https://www.gottman.com/blog/the-four-horsemen-recognizing-criticism-contempt-defensiveness-and-stonewalling/
Wow! From what I have learned so far the first three look like how BPDs come wired. The fourth is what nons are pretty much forced to do in response to minimise the psychological damage. This helps explain why I always rated my marriage as being too unhealthy to even attempt to present jointly to a marriage counsellor.

BetterLanes

[formflier]

Well... .if she wants to break the snuggle... that's always ok.

If I have "mentioned" important things that need to be done and then exit for those reasons... the grump is less.

However... .the moving target lies in how much I "mention"... .too little and I don't give a crap.  Too much and "it's all you ever talk about."

So far... just ignoring the grump seems to do the best.

I'll let you know what P says today.

FF

[flourdust]

I'll let you know what P says today.

It might be interesting to bring the Gottman article and get her take.

[formflier]

Unfortunately... other matters were a bit more pressing.  So this didn't get discussed.

It's still on the list.  She is generally a fan of Gottman's work.  We have discussed it before.

FF