Is this a reasonable "stance" to take on parenting issue

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

So... a teenager forgot something today and I, at my wife's request, tried to find it and bring it to them in a hurry.

So... .in my haste in the teenagers room... .I knocked over a glass of milk and made an enormous mess.  I don't think I could recreate the disaster if I tried.

And... since in a hurry... I decided to deal with it when I got back.

Turns out... I couldn't get the item there in time... so the request for a "save" was cancelled.

This gave me some time to think as I drove back home and here is my "stance".

Teen can clean it up... .or if there is a big "thing" about the person making the mess cleaning it up... .then I expect full control of enforcement of the "no food and drink outside the kitchen" rule... which supposedly my wife and I both agree to.

The milk shouldn't of been there... .

Anyway... .thoughts?

FF

[formflier]

So... a teenager forgot something today and I, at my wife's request, tried to find it and bring it to them in a hurry.

So... .in my haste in the teenagers room... .I knocked over a glass of milk and made an enormous mess.  I don't think I could recreate the disaster if I tried.

And... since in a hurry... I decided to deal with it when I got back.

Turns out... I couldn't get the item there in time... so the request for a "save" was cancelled.

This gave me some time to think as I drove back home and here is my "stance".

Teen can clean it up... .or if there is a big "thing" about the person making the mess cleaning it up... .then I expect full control of enforcement of the "no food and drink outside the kitchen" rule... which supposedly my wife and I both agree to.

The milk shouldn't of been there... .

Anyway... .thoughts?

FF

[formflier]

So... this one was over pretty quick.

She refused to agree to or discuss new "enforcement" of food rules and said I could leave it or clean it up... it didn't matter to her.

I've left it.

FF

[Red5]

Milk is going to start to smell pretty bad inside of twenty four hours... .the heat index here in Patuxent River is well over a hundred today... .I would clean it up, if that is even possible from a carpeted floor, better to have wood or tile... .then I would take charge and post the order of the day, ie’ no more chow outside of the mess decks, .cut and dried! (black and white)... .thoughts,

Red5

[formflier]

I think they have cleaned it up... .

Frankly... I'm not going to check.  Their room... .their stink... .but from what I could sort out from listening... it's cleaned up.

The reason is I don't want to start taking things from them and having Mom give them back.  Which is why I wanted clarity ahead of time... .as that would likely put off the "open war" over parenting for a while.

It's easily solvable, but if the rules change depending on emotions... it's not solvable at all.

FF

[Red5]

Presently we are fighting the “who eats the bread heals” war... .and once again it’s my S31 autistic son verses his step mother whilst he is making his lunch for his daily routine vocational program (school)... and I am on travel... .does this ever end?... .to channel the late Richard Dawson from the classic show “family feud”... .   “survey says!”... .No!

Red5

[Teno]

An approach that could work is by ignoring the negative and really praise who ever cleaned it up. You still enforcing the rules without being punitive. You can focus on the breaking of the rules or on the positive side of cleaning up. You still keep the positive bond with your child and give attention to the good behavior. Kids like any attention, negative or good.
 
https://www.extension.umn.edu/family/school-success/families/building-stronger-parent-child-relationships/using-natural-and-logical-consequences/

I've done a parenting course covering the topics at the link above. It is aimed at younger children but also applies to older children. It really helps with positive parenting. At least it helped me to keep my side clean when parenting the kids. Applying the rules make me look like the bad guy, but praising the good stuff helps building a better bond.

Getting milk spilled in the room is a natural consequence for leaving it in the room. If you leave food in the room it will stink and you must live with it. They learned a lesson without your involvement and you still kept a positive relationship.

I fully understand how rules change with emotions and then the kids gets rescued because I enforce the rules. My aim is to only notice when I see the positive behavior and praise that.

Try praising your kids for everything they do for the next week. It made a difference in our kids.

https://www.extension.umn.edu/family/school-success/families/building-stronger-parent-child-relationships/praise-that-build-self-esteem/

Hope this helps!

[Notwendy]

I like the idea of praising them for doing things right - like cleaning up the milk.

I looked at it a different way. Why "rescue " a teenager who forgot something ? Unless the consequences were very damaging - it could be that the better lesson was dealing without the forgotten item. These natural consequences are good lessons.

As to the milk- if I spilled it I would clean it. Also the consequences of leaving it there could be a ruined carpet- but if I spilled sometime then I would feel responsible for cleaning it up. As to breaking the food in room rule - there could be another consequence. Deduct some allowance for each food item, or add an extra chore, or lose 15 minutes of TV time or curfew.

I'm not a punitive parent but these small "fines" could add up and be reminders not to take food out of eating areas.

[Red5]

FF,
Thank you for the link(s), I want to read them when I get back home and have the time to get the most out of them, as this iPhone wrecks havoc with my old timers eyesight, .again; thank you.

I think that you certainly have your hands full dealing with all that you do; as you have described your life and family to us all here,

That said, in my own case; I have to say that dealing with, living with a BPD (u/dx) wife, as well taking care of my S31 who is autistic and also mildly retarded/developmental delayed (has been dx); is extremely challenging at times; albeit difficult as u/BPD wife is his step mother,

She pretty much became dysregulated/ even a bit unglued tonight on the phone, as my S31 autistic was extremely agitated at her for some reason this evening, and I was not there to run interception, as I am in another state on work travel, it has made for a perplexing evening,

My other S27 came over to see them tonight, and his visit could not have been more perfectly planned, S27 is extremely adept in reading his brother, and was able to insert a more calming effect while he visited,

My u/BPD wife was still acting in an “F” it all mood when I just spoke with her over the phone just now, to include the “hang-up” game... .more dysregulations... .I used “SET” to some degree of success but she was still very negative, perhaps she is presenting some “abandonment traits” here, this is pretty much how she is when I have to travel for work, so I should expect/prepare myself for this type of behaviors?

I will be back home tomorrow night to do damage control, it will be a long day, yes it will be!, .and to top it all off, we are scheduled to leave on a week long trip north to see her Son and his new wife up in the northern states, we are leaving this Friday, lots of moving parts, logistics, travel etc; many opurtunities for u/BPD wife to “lose her $hit” over something yet unforeseen and unavoidable, it’s going to be very stressful trip to say the least.

Tonight I even told her that I felt guilty for even bringing her into this relationship, and putting her in the position of having to care for my S31 autistic at times when I travel, .she agreed that she had no idea what she was gettting herself into?

Lots of moving parts and intricate facets to this parenting thing, but you already know that times eight FF!

I take my hat off to you for what you shoulder everyday!

Tomorrow will be a new day, and I am sure there will be more spilled milk before it’s over,

Live and learn they say, I agree with both you FF, and Notwendy about the rewarding, and not rescueing points,

Red5

[formflier]

Many times I "cover with love" infractions and clean things up... .just deal with things as I come across them, because time involved in dealing with it then, versus tracking down a kid... having a talk... .following up.

Now... in summer when they have nothing pressing and all the time in the world... and I don't have the time (really bad week with MBA stuff)... .

They have gone of the deep end with "leisure" and "forgetting responsibilities"

I'll do what I can with my limited time to correct that.  This morning I collected 3 phones from their rooms while they slept.  After I went to bed last night... .they wrecked the kitchen... left dog out that pooped in the office I needed to do work in first thing this morning.

My wife was supposedly awake and in charge.

What I expect to figure out.  If they value their phones enough... .they'll get interested in what it takes to get them back.

Or

I'll figure out they don't value their phones that much and we can save money as a family.

Either way... I win.

They get to choose... .very minimal discussions on my part.

Specific question for Notwendy.  I'll tell you it was "hard for me" to walk away from a mess that I made.  However... it is unreasonable for me to go around the entire house "being careful" so I don't knock over a glass of milk that is not in "plain sight".

Most likely it was put where it was so the "putter" would know where it was, yet it was out of sight of others that might want to drink it... .(totally my interpretation of watching brothers and sisters do their thing).

The cost of a walk to the fridge versus the cost of sneaking a quick drink of what is "right there"... .often results in taking what is handy.

Anyway... .my long winded question is how many times would you clean it up if the "mines" keep being left?" or in what situations would you have left it?

I ask because I'm trying to do the "don't keep parenting the same way and expect a different result"  My new goal was to minimize impact on me and maximize impact on "them"... .and let "them connect the dots"

FF

[Fian]

Personally, I would have cleaned the milk up myself.  I was the one who knocked it over, not them.  Now, I know the counter argument is it shouldn't have been there in the first place, but I think you lose the moral high ground when you tell them to clean it up.

If I clean it up, I can then tell them that they shouldn't have milk in their room in the first place.  They may disagree with me, but they can't put the blame on me for anything.

If I have them clean it up, they could be blaming me for being too lazy to clean up my own mess and not listen to me when I say it shouldn't be there in the first place.  By blaming me, they can ignore their own fault in the mess.

[kells76]

Hi formflier, I'm usually over on the coparenting boards, but I thought I'd offer some thoughts on your parenting issue here.

How do you think it would go if you talked through a "do-over" with your teenager? It might look something like this:

"Teen, remember when you had the milk in your room and I spilled it and cleaned it up? Well, I've been thinking some more about that. I did spill it, so on the one hand it makes sense that I cleaned it. On the other hand, we both know that the expectation is no food in bedrooms. So, I think what I'll do next time is just leave the spill -- because the milk shouldn't have been there."

Then you could end with "What do you think?" or "I just wanted you to know in advance what I plan to do next time" or something.

This conversation might work better or worse depending on the kid. It has usually gone OK with DH's kids (ages 10 & 12) -- I think the "letting you know what I plan to do next time" part keeps things calm and defused.

Just another option to consider for the actual teen parenting side of your question.

Let me think some more about the other side of your question (wife wanting you to rescue teen by bringing item). On the one hand, if it was you that your teen called, you could pull a "love and logic" on them: "Oh no! That's too bad that you forgot your trumpet! I'm really sorry that happened. What do you think you're going to do about it?"

And then follow up with "I'm so sorry I'm not able to bring it to you right now. I can bring it to you in 4 hours. What do you think? Want any more help coming up with ideas?"

Of course, these ideas both kind of sidestep your wife, and I think that's what makes your parenting situation tricky.

[formflier]

Not sure if it matters...

Her forgot his wallet with his drivers permit in it.  He was going to driving school to drive.  I had talked to him earlier and he has said he had everything together, including the permit to go.

Once I started driving to meet the family at the school... .I realized I wouldn't be there by the cancellation time... .so all the "save" effort didn't matter.

There is a cost to us for missing the event... .and it puts some plans in disarray.  It's not the end of the world.

This particular teen is a bit of a space cadet although wicked smart (academically).

I don't have his attention... or I didn't before taking his phone.  I now have his attention.

Basically I value having his attention... .he values his phone... .we'll work out a "trading" relationship of some sort.

There have been some consequence talks prior to this about various things.  My "style" isn't to do "one more and boom" talks.  I'll talk about consequences and then impose them when I determine it needed.

I DO NOT want to raise kids expecting to be warned "that they have a next time".

Anyway... .I guess I got on a soapbox for a bit.  I'll need to find time for a conversation.

The "mindset" I'm trying to change is when he said "I wasn't involved in any of it... ." and I said... "that's exactly the problem (name)" 

"You know I expect you to be involved.  You are about to be the oldest kid in the house and I expect you to be responsible and involved."

When stuff happens I expect people to take responsibility... vice lawyer their way out of things.

Let's just say there is a buy named "nobody" that lives in our house... and is responsible for lots of stuff.

Grump over.

FF 

[Notwendy]

My kids' school drivers ed teacher was strict. If you talked in class or didn't arrive in time, the teacher would expell you from the class. This meant you had to wait to sign up for another one.

One of mine got thrown out for being a few minutes late. This is a good kid, good student but the rules were the rules.

Teacher's thinking - driving is a big responsibility and if a student could not get there in time or didn't pay attention in class - then they were not ready to get behind the wheel. I admit the teacher is stricter than I am.

Teens can be space cadets but it would have been a good lesson about not forgetting a license when driving.

[Notwendy]

FF- my reasoning for cleaning the milk would be because I spilled it. Yes it should not have been there but it isn't entirely the child's fault that it spilled. The spilling would be on me.

I think summers can get hectic and unstructured. It hard to keep the same level of structure as school. I think parenting is tough - especially if their mom rescues them. At this point their rooms are their responsibilities. Maybe a cleaning schedule ? They can learn that cleaning is harder if they have food in there.

[Red5]

I think summers can get hectic and unstructured.

It hard to keep the same level of structure as school.

I think parenting is tough - especially if their mom rescues them.

At this point their rooms are their responsibilities.

Maybe a cleaning schedule ?

They can learn that cleaning is harder if they have food in there.

I was a single Father for about five years after I got divorced from w#1, it was just me and the kids.

So there we were, living in a brand new “starting over” place, onboard a Marine Corps Air Station to be exact, as I was still on active duty then;… we lived out by the river, on the back side of the base; in senior SNCO housing… it was just me and D14, S16, and 20 who was/is autistic, special needs… and one dog, one cat, and a ferret…

So I had to keep things together, and I knew I had to immediately establish “stability”, discipline, and a “routine”… so as the “quintessential” Senior Marine Corps SNCO… I fell back on my “training”…

Let me channel "The Great Santini" here... .

https://www.you.tube.com/watch?v=FvnglzH0u7E

I got us all together and explained that it was going to be “just us” from here on out, and that we needed to share the load, and responsibilities of keeping the ship “ship shape”, “on course”, and A/J squared away, and so to do this, we were going to have to work together, we were all going to have to each do our part, and “pull our weight”.

So I made a chore list, and individual one, and a shared list(s), each member of the family would do his or her own laundry and ensure that their rooms were clean at all times… we shared the rest, (shared list) ie’ mess duty (kitchen), common areas, bathrooms, ie’ vacuuming, dusting, and keeping the rest of the inside of the house clean as well the outside (small) yard.

The "shared list" was on a rotational basis, so that one did not do the same things over and over... .

… AND pet responsibilities !... .that was also a biggie !

I typed it out, even framed it (them), and posted them on the bulkhead (wall) in the laundry room  !

There were also rules that I set, & enforced, (and also posted them on the bulkhead (wall) )… and I also as well adhered to these rules (leadership by example)… ie’ no chow outside the galley (kitchen), and… you make a mess, then you clean it up ASAP!… and to be courteous and considerate to your brothers and sister, and as well dear old Dad!

I also declared, that just like in the Marines, every Thursday night was “field day”, and every Friday morning was “inspection”… just like around the squadron, or the barracks, my plan worked flawlessly… we rewarded ourselves with “pizza night”, movie night out with friends, and other things of this nature.

If things were ignored, or else “blown-off”, .ie' questionable school grades as well chores... .then liberty was secured, until whatever it was (occurrence)... .was corrected, within reason of course.

It all worked very well, we were very happy in our nice clean, quiet and squared away quarters… I do miss those days, oh’ yes I do… it was a nice; quiet and happy life we had for ourselves during that time frame living down by the river towards the end of my service time (retirement).

Nowadays, D14 is now D26 who owns (mortgage) her own home, has a great job, and is very happy and well adjusted… S16 is now S28, who also now lives on his own, has a great job; is completely self-sufficient like his baby sister, and also does his own thing, and is also very happy and adjusted, S20 is now S31, who is my special needs Son, and he lives with me obviously, and is my life long responsibility, and my absolute joy!

That is the way things were, .until… I met; dated, and subsequently married u/BPDw #2… “a whole nother story” altogether… maybe later …

There you have it…

Red5

p.s.… I still have that chore list, I kept it, as a reminder, that we “made it” !

[formflier]

Red 5,

Contact the bosun'  have him pass the word... .

Request mast is being held in the kitchen... .all those request return of their phones... lay before the mast.  All quiet in the vicinity of the kitchen.

https://benersonlittle.wordpress.com/2017/05/03/commands-at-sea-the-boatswains-call-pipe-or-whistle-with-a-note-or-two-on-boatswain-speech-as-well/

 

My plan is to draw an "cost curve"... .can you tell I'm taking economic?  I will graphically show S15 the "cost" of Daddy getting his attention.  I will encourage him to "shift his cost curve" to a lower cost.

 

FF

[Red5]

Red 5,

Contact the bosun'  have him pass the word... .

Request mast is being held in the kitchen... .all those request return of their phones... lay before the mast.  All quiet in the vicinity of the kitchen.

https://benersonlittle.wordpress.com/2017/05/03/commands-at-sea-the-boatswains-call-pipe-or-whistle-with-a-note-or-two-on-boatswain-speech-as-well/

 

My plan is to draw an "cost curve"... .can you tell I'm taking economic?  I will graphically show S15 the "cost" of Daddy getting his attention.  I will encourage him to "shift his cost curve" to a lower cost.

 

FF

"The P-Way is SECURED!"

... .

"The pilfering of food aboard a vessel is an infraction of a severe nature"  !

https://www.you.tube.com/watch?v=nndGGnOFvMk

I had a "kill switch"... .as in zero internet... .just like that, -> OFF... .that used to get the youngins attention pretty quick... .

Attention... .I remember getting the "Air Bosses" attention on the flight deck, whilst me and my fellow Red Shirts were acting stupidly... .not a good thing in the middle of flight operations  !

Red5

[flourdust]

English, please, guys... .

[kells76]

Hi again FF;

There have been some consequence talks prior to this about various things.  My "style" isn't to do "one more and boom" talks.  I'll talk about consequences and then impose them when I determine it needed.

I DO NOT want to raise kids expecting to be warned "that they have a next time".

I think that's fair enough. Generally that's how life works, and I can see from how you (and Red5) described your situations, that parenting more on the "authoritarian" side of "authoritative" works in your situations. (NB I seem to recall, maybe from Dr Craig Childress's site, a "parenting scale" ranging from "authoritarian" to "authoritative" in the middle to "permissive".)

For anyone following this thread, a key difference between DH's situation and those of formflier and Red5 is that DH and his uBPDxw are divorced, and there was some significant PA-type behaviors going on from Mom and Stepdad for a while (oh, hey, and STILL going on... .). We've had to step/parent more on the "permissive" side of "authoritative" than maybe I'd like, but that's what it took to get through the bad years.

But, an approach that works on both ends of the spectrum is the "find your child's currency" approach. For SD12, "no phone" or "no sleepover" would be meaningless, but "no reading" might have some pull.

Sounds like "no internet" worked for your kids, Red5:

I had a "kill switch" ... .as in zero internet ... .just like that, -> OFF ... .that used to get the youngins attention pretty quick ... .

I can imagine their faces 

Again, for anyone following this thread, what worked for DH's kids at our house was a LOT of explanation and pre-announcements. "Surprises" are not workable and end in conflict and tears. In other households, though, esp when the parents are still together, just "doing" the boundaries and consequences sounds very effective, maybe with the conversation about currency afterwards.

Hope this helps clarify some stuff, and boy are there times I wish we could just do the "instant consequences" approach. Not what we got dealt 

[formflier]

I am a bit slow on some forms of tech.

I'm just not starting to play around with apps that control my kids devices.  I haven't got them all done yet, but apparently I can set preset limits like "after 1 hour of screen time"... poof... device stops working.

I also think there is a "kill switch" so I go in and hit a button... and all comes to a screeching halt... for them.

Not for me!

FF