FF needs some quick advice on to text back or not

[Notwendy]

That's a great description.

I think marriage and friendships need a casual reciprocity. It may not be 50-50 all the time or ever in some cases but there is a sense of teamwork, fairness,  and consideration for the other person.

With someone with BPD, they can take most of the resources and still feel that the situation is unfair to hem.

It's not just with money but with other things- household tasks, activities. I think this stems from victim mode. If someone is in victim mode, they are focusing on their own emotional pain and not aware of the other person.

FF, I think this may have motivated your wife to do what she did ( not to excuse it). She felt she needed her name on the car as well. ( I do understand how she may have felt this) and you didn't do it when she asked. You had a perfectly good reason to not be able to do it at that time- but she didn't see things from your perspective. She felt abandoned and like a victim when she could not get a hold of you. She then took what she thought was "her share" you had the car, she took this money and put it in her name for security ( to her). You felt blindsided and betrayed. I'm not excusing the behavior. I think it isn't fair to take a large sum of money without consulting your spouse. But it could make sense to her.

[formflier]

Especially if she did abrogate other agreements after that.

There are no financial agreements since early 2014 (the van/money move) that she has not abrogated.

Even something like "I will never again give money for over $50 to my family without asking you first... " (her proposal even... I accepted it without modification)  It lasted for about a year until she perceived her Dad needed something... she cleaned an account out of about $300ish and had my oldest give it to him in cash.

This one she did eventually give back because she had the money in her account.  So... it wasn't about the money... .it was about taking it from me and making sure I knew it... and a child was involved.

FF

[formflier]

Was your wife financially independent before marriage and children ?

 

Yes... .100%. 

Her FOO wasn't very good with money, but they did pay their bills first (as opposed to my wifes sister and brother).  They were from poor but hardworking background.  Unfortunately there are "dad issues" for my FIL and MIL.  Neither of them grew up with anything close to "normal" father figure.  Even worse... there were affairs, drinking, physical abuse.

Affairs and drinking seemed to be "nipped" from one generation to my wife's parents... .my MIL was physically abusive to her children, in a "spanking gone overboard" way (closed fist hitting and such).

My wife was the first person (even among her cousins) to graduate from college.  Many started and flunked out.

I meet my wife and she is struggling to be a vet (still in the bachelors degree part of it).  She grew up rural, likes animals and saw vets were always in demand (although she didn't understand they often didn't get paid on time by farmers).

Anyway... .organic chemistry was just about to kill her.  She was complaining to me... saying she didn't think she would make it.   I asked her what her family said and figured out they didn't support her at all.  They didn't "drag her down either"... just left her alone.

She liked "caring for things" (animals, children... etc etc) and somehow being an educator came up.  She had done something around kids and really liked it. 

When I asked why she didn't switch to that as a major... .she just kinda stared at me.  What would people think... etc etc?  I encouraged her to do something she enjoyed and was good at.  Somehow assured her that lots of people find organic chemistry "insurmountable".  She switched to "early childhood education" (preschool through 3rd grade) and became a much happier and successful person.

I remember once she thanked me for encouraging her to do what she loved and me thinking it was odd, because "that's just what people do for each other".

Anyway... she put herself through school with loans and working.

She worked in a nice pre-school in our early marriage and planned to return after 1st baby (baby could go there for free).

Anyway... .our first guy was a NICU baby but recovered quickly.  As it came time for her to go back to work I ran some numbers and figured out the "extra" she was bringing in from her work and the "cost" of her staying home to the budget.

Pretty much if we drove and kept "paid off cars" (and I worked on them) and my wife was diligent about buying clothes at yard sales and second hand (vice full price at mall)... .the math worked out.

So... she stayed home and was heavily involved in women's groups at churches we attended (moved around due to military).

By and large she stuck to budget

Anyway... .it appears that I've "nipped" the financial issues from passing down to another generation.  My oldest three seem to have really good financial habits... .

FF

[Enabler]

I mentioned this in another thread but Delayed Gratification is a learnt skill and plugs into Executive thinking model. You are showing and teaching your kids the benefits of delayed gratification by illustrating what they can get using restraint and choice... .which is tough in a world of millennial's who want immediate gratification.

[formflier]

Yep...

I'm currently a "city slicker" and don't live on a farm.  We moved off farm several years ago.

I hope in the next few years to find the right piece of ground to move back on the farm.  Much easier to raise kids with values and do the kind of parenting where they pick their own consequences and rewards.

My oldest (computer engineering masters student) is quite clear that he sees a life for himself of living in condominiums... .far from the world of chores.  I often chuckle and tell him he is going to fall in love with a gal that wants horses, goats and all of that... .and that I will "enjoy watching that"... .

Anyway... .he made quite a bit of money in a goat and horse business with his sister, which he has successfully recounted in various interviews for jobs and internships.  Invariably he will say something about a "goat business" and the  interviewer (usually another tech type) will stop the interview to clarify... "goats... like 4 legs and horns?"  (yep... those... )

I do see a world of difference between how our kids operate and many of their buddies... .that was intentional.  Very glad to have been able to teach that without BPD getting in there.

FF

[Notwendy]

I also grew up with financial insecurities. My father made enough money but BPD mother's out of control spending put him into debt. I was mostly on my own for college. I don't recall feeling supported by them for who I was- just raised to please my parents.

Being financially independent was the key to not being controlled by BPD mom. She controlled every penny, so as long as I didn't need money from my parents, I was not controlled by her.

I had started a career when I married and worked until kids came along. The housework was always my job and kids added to that. When kids came along, I worked part time ( a mutual agreement with me and H)  The income discrepancy changed the power structure in the marriage. Later,  H and I decided it was best for me to be the primary caregiver at home.

I felt vulnerable being in a financially dependent position, even if it was by mutual decision. I recall feeling uncomfortable about not having the car in both our names. My H was the one who committed "financial infidelity". He didn't realize at the time that the emotional toll of the breach of trust on the marriage was greater than any financial consequences.

I am certainly grateful for his providing for us and that spending the time with my children was a privilege, but from my own FOO background, I also needed the emotional sense of being an equal team partner in the marriage. Putting the car in both our names would have been a symbol of that.

How people deal with money is closely tied to emotions and FOO issues. I think the money grab was actually an emotional security grab for your wife,  and I don't think she was thinking about the emotional consequences to you when she did it.

I think it is different for my BPD mother. Her overspending is on lavish things, I think to bolster her low self esteem. It doesn't work for long, so she needs more of it. She has mentioned feeling vulnerable being dependent on my father, but she also seems to feel a sense of entitlement.

Perhaps understanding this may help the two of you come to some resolution. It's difficult if she is not trustworthy with the money.

[formflier]

My wife and I are "comfortable financially".  I have a multi-generational background of this, but also a history of most of those assets being tied up in real estate and farms... .things that aren't "liquid"... yet produce income over time.

So... .no shock that I continued this.  My wife was interested in learning and she did great at it for a long time.  In the early 2000s I got into "house flipping" as a side business with a couple Naval Aviator buddies. 

We made an a$$ton (naval aviator term) of cash, a lot of which we plowed back into the business.  When real estate "rolled over" we have ended up being landlords for a long time, rather than selling at a loss.  I also have quite a bit of real estate outside this business, in fact... .I only have 1 property left with those guys.

My wife was right in the mix... she would bid on property at courthouse steps... .help out and yes... .she got to spend quite a bit of the money.  In fact... .the house that I made the most money (as a percentage of initial investment) and potentially the most money in total (I'm selling the house with an owner held mortgage that is paid monthly... so I won't know for 25 more years) I bought sight unseen after my wife did a walk through and told me how good a deal it was.

Sadly... .that was last house we bought together, since BPD was just showing up.  I realized I couldn't do business with a "partner" that was that erratic.  For instance, I'm at the house working on a toilet that the new owner had complained about (warranty work... part of the deal)... new owner is female.  My wife showed up to "catch" me doing the nasty with the new owner and she "caught" me with my arm down the 4 inch plumbing pipe.  Literally... laying on the floor with my arm down pipe.  The new owner was very unsettled (as was I) by the entire experience.

The biggest financial "hit" we took was the natural disaster (flood) that forced us off the farm.  Even though I had flood insurance (it doesn't pay a lot of stuff) we lost a lot of money in that event (well into 6 figures)... .I've never had the heart to calculate it exactly.

That's when my wife "went one way" mentally and I kinda "went the other way" and clung harder to facts and truth... .she clung to paranoia.  I invalidated for a couple years and the rest is history.

FF

[Notwendy]

Somehow the lyrics for Shaggy "it wasn't me" came to mind.

That kind of paranoia is tough, and certainly compounds the issues.

Keep in mind though that relationships with or without BPD can have issues with money. BPD just seems to compound it.

[braveSun]

Please, forgive me, FF. I was writing this while you posted more of your background story. Wow!... All and every details very relevant. 

Both my spouse and I have also gone through a major disaster (Katrina) and the upending that it did cause into our lives.

I would like to go back to this topic because I see it central in my own reflection. I find that the issue of trust between my spouse and I is the most difficult and painful experience, way above the real, life-changing material loss. We are both living comfortably, and man, we too, have changed a lot since the storm. Amazing to read your story FF!...    

May I please add this to Notwendy's comments?

When kids came along, I worked part time ( a mutual agreement with me and H)  The income discrepancy changed the power structure in the marriage. Later,  H and I decided it was best for me to be the primary caregiver at home.

I felt vulnerable being in a financially dependent position, even if it was by mutual decision. I recall feeling uncomfortable about not having the car in both our names. My H was the one who committed "financial infidelity". He didn't realize at the time that the emotional toll of the breach of trust on the marriage was greater than any financial consequences.

I am certainly grateful for his providing for us and that spending the time with my children was a privilege, but from my own FOO background, I also needed the emotional sense of being an equal team partner in the marriage. Putting the car in both our names would have been a symbol of that.

How people deal with money is closely tied to emotions and FOO issues. I think the money grab was actually an emotional security grab for your wife,  and I don't think she was thinking about the emotional consequences to you when she did it.

There is a lot in this whole thread that's touching very important sensitive points. Notwendy has it there with the power structure in the marriage being changed. I can relate to that myself. I chose to move into my spouse's country and as a result of that, didn't have any income. This made me feel very vulnerable to my spouses' directiveness in regards to how and when she would share her money with me. The need for me to be in this as team together became super acute (consider here the paranoid thinking about me wanting to take her money).

Interestingly enough, we did have a car sharing issue. And at some point, (considering her B&W thinking and rigidity), she did cut me off from her money and went on a campaign to refuse to buy foods I wanted or needed (for recipes), did turn to buy only thrift store clothes and started to threaten divorce, and than going to see divorce lawyers.

This was terrifying for me. I did take a certain large amount from our joint saving account than, because I was terrified I had to leave and I didn't have a penny for legal counsel, not to think about living expenses if I had to leave. I didn't clean the account, did it very cautiously, alerted some supportive friends of why I was doing it.

I am wondering if threats of divorce had been exchanged at that time.

Because this can skew judgements even in the most stable person. We all have to prepare in some ways.

It's striking to me that your spouse was financially responsible, and that she did break financial trust there, and thereafter.  And, if I may add, FF, she took the $300 from your joint money without consulting you, but she did return it.

That doesn't excuse the financial betrayal. From what I can see here, it appears that if there had been a breaking point in your trust, there possibly was very few other serious financial acts of betrayal after that. Or that the $300 one was rather of a minor level.

I say that because if I look at this from the perspective of the one who has been disempowered by financial decisions, it might be pretty good that from her part she has paid back the $300.

About the non-obvious discrepancies in vulnerabilities. I know as the lower incomed person that even though I live on a just sufficient  budget I may sometimes pay for something unplanned and than later fix it one way or another. In dealing with my spouse, though, there have been times when smallish temporary discrepancies ($100-$300 range) did have the temporary effect of blocking me in my cashflow.

I don't means to say that your spouse should not have discussed it with you first.

I think sometimes the person who doesn't have the tight budget doesn't see first hand when there is a need to make adjustments, and that the onus to bring it up comes back to the person who needs it the most.

It can be tricky.

Example. Sometimes my spouse and I are discussing something and I decide I will get it on my card. Than later the adjustment to my monthly budget doesn't get done, and I have to ask her again. This over time feels disempowering, and ultimately humiliating. 

Because even though we both did agreed that I would do it, if I end up not having enough left in my account for some end of the month bill or foods, or my own plans, that's not right that my spouse did not check it up and deposit the adjusted amount in my account.

Another example is the thrift store clothes. I can see the value of that in your situation it makes total sense. Only that if I am living with someone who is comfortable and it turns out that my clothes are thrift store bought while hers are online (in my case) bought, it doesn't feel right over a long period of time .

Just examples coming to mind...


 

[formflier]

... All and every details very relevant. 

Both my spouse and I have also gone through a major disaster (Katrina) and the upending that it did cause into our lives.
 

So... the car thing.  Different states treat military spouses much differently.  Federal law protects the person in the military.  So... .I was able to keep vehicles registered and tagged in my home state (where I joined military from) during my entire period of service (over 20 years).

So... it was simpler if they were in my name and if something needed to be done, car sold, traded or whatever I would send a specific military power of attorney form... .and things went smoothly.

My wife expressed she was fine with this and under my state law the car was actually hers as well, even though it was in my name.   (anyway... those are the facts)

She expressed a desire to put her name on there and I agreed.  However, I wasn't going to break an important work appointment to do so.

Katrina was very "healing" for my wife and I.  We traveled with many of our children and spent time on mission trips to help people recover.  We had many faith based groups help us and it felt good to "give back".

Frankly... .after seeing Katrina... .I would pick my flood.  Katrina and the impact on peoples lives was "orders of magnitude" worse.

My particular farm property "was not in a flood zone".  It turns out this was an error in FEMA maps.  So... my flood insurance cost me about $250 per year... and I didn't have to have it.  I bought it because I lived within sight of a river... and it seemed wise.

Once the flood came my property was not worth anything.  Nobody would buy it.  Yet it was valuable to us... it was our piece of ground. 

Well... .it was obvious there was no future there.  The state came out with a program to "buy back" flood properties and turn them into greenspace.  We participated and moved back to my home state.  This was same time I retired and also got the county executive job in my home state.  The sale to the state was a "short sale" take it or leave it thing.

FF

[formflier]

Not all of my wife's financial habits are bad.

She can take a clothing dollar and stretch it... .in amazing ways.

Organizing totes of hand me down clothes... .

We have a total of 10 people in family... .I would guess our clothing budget is more for a family of 4.

Which... .also leads into why I would want to be so careful about laundry... .so that clothes stay in good condition and can be passed down.

FF

[Enabler]

Sadly... .that was last house we bought together, since BPD was just showing up. 

FF, can I take you back to this comment. My W's experience of BPD pre-dates her meeting me. I know her childhood sweetheart, he lives round the corner. His words "yeah, F... .she used to cut all the time and when you tried to stop her she would slap and punch you." Also an assortment of letters suggesting similar experiences to me. However you're wife's issues seem to have just materialised mid way through your relationship.

Have you pieced together / rationalised how this can happen?

[Notwendy]

braveSun touched on some things I also experienced. The two people living on different incomes is one of them. Thankfully it wasn't thrift store/extravagant but the difference was significant. BPD mom is Saks/Neiman Marcus. Dad's clothes were from Target/Kohls.

As you can imagine, two married people living at different income levels is triggering to me.

In a family where there is an income discrepancy between the spouses, the one with the money holds potential power. Abusing this can damage the marriage. My parents' marriage was a mystery. Dad made the money, mom had the power. FF, I think you have little choice besides taking that power, but I don't know what to do about the issues that would cause. I guess it's a choice between two outcomes, one which damages the welfare of the whole family, one that damages the marriage?

[formflier]

Have you pieced together / rationalised how this can happen?

Yeah... that is something I've given a lot of thought to.  

It was always there, but at a very high functioning level.  Sure, there were disagreements, even some that were particularly intense... .however we reconciled... solved things... .and they stayed solved.

Plus... the coming and going of military life helped extend a honeymoon phase... and helped "push pull" stay in "pull" mode.  Plus... .if we were starting to irritate each other, we each could think... ."Ok... just a couple more weeks and then (something different)".

I'm blessed to have the family I have.  There are NO DIVORCES... .for generations.  The weirdest thing is a couple generations ago 1 guy and his wife got "kicked off the farm" for not pulling their weight.  They moved to town... got jobs and stayed married for almost 50 years until he passed away (he was the cousin... she "married in"

So... .I had no history or had ever heard of family weird stuff... bad FOO issues.  The cousin move off thing was more of an honest disagreement, they just couldn't agree... .therefore he couldn't live there anymore... .vice an unreasonable thing.  That patriarch at the time was my great grandfather, who by all accounts was a very mellow fellow... .so perhaps there is more here.

Well... my wife acknowledged issues in her family, yet said them in a way of "these people are this way... so I choose to be "my way" (very different from her foo)... .and that seamed reasonable to me.  And it was for about 15-16 years of marriage.

For instance... .in our current will, my wife plainly states that "no way... no how... should any court ever give custody of my kids to my sister", yet recently I've driven to sisters house to pick up my kids after my wife left them in her care.  My wife thinks her sisters has "reformed"... (reality... she has gotten worse)

My psychologist says it's completely understandable that the flood "triggered" long dormant seeds... and I "watered" those seeds with invalidation (proving I didn't have separate families and a harem) for a couple years.  That "ingrained" the behavior.

FF

[formflier]

  The two people living on different incomes is one of them. Thankfully it wasn't thrift store/extravagant but the difference was significant. BPD mom is Saks/Neiman Marcus. Dad's clothes were from Target/Kohls.

I'm usually the one that pushes my wife to say it's OK to get a really nice outfit.  Especially since she is back in the classroom, has meetings with parents and other things like that.   Even then, she buys things on sale.

I had to buy nice clothes for my executive position, but it felt a bit un-natural to me. 

Personally... .jeans, t-shirt... dirty with oil and stuff from working in the shop is where I'm most comfortable.  I don't think anything of running out the store in work clothes (farm clothes back when that's where we lived).

I do buy nice things, but focus on toughness and functionality.

Funny story... and the place where I spend to excess:  I've never met a trailer I didn't want to buy.  They are so useful... .and I buy a lot of them. 

So... .I finally found a deal of a 7x14 dual axle dump trailer and was so pleased to get it.  Much easier to move my skid steer (actual Bobcat... not a "lesser" brand) around.  My wife just smiled... a bit of an eye roll.  She knew I'd make it work on taxes and business deductions.

Well... .shortly after that I was out of town with military.  She was bitching and moaning about having to go get a bunch of bags of mulch for her flowers at the farmhouse.  I suggested the dump trailer and a bulk load.  She hooked it up... .drove and got a load full... and then was able to back it up to various parts of the house and put the mulch exactly where she wanted it.

Well... I get back... and she kept going on about how useful the trailer was... .I was like "See... .! I told you!" 

 


FF

[braveSun]

Yeah... that is something I've given a lot of thought to.  

It was always there, but at a very high functioning level.  Sure, there were disagreements, even some that were particularly intense... .however we reconciled... solved things... .and they stayed solved.

Same with us.

Plus... the coming and going of military life helped extend a honeymoon phase... and helped "push pull" stay in "pull" mode.  Plus... .if we were starting to irritate each other, we each could think... ."Ok... just a couple more weeks and then (something different)".

We've had some back and forth similar to this in our history as well.

My psychologist says it's completely understandable that the flood "triggered" long dormant seeds... and I "watered" those seeds with invalidation (proving I didn't have separate families and a harem) for a couple years.  That "ingrained" the behavior.

My T last year said that possibly there was a vulnerability and when life brought a disruptive patch, the brave people who have worked hard with strong foundations could cope better and the brave people who have worked hard, but did have the vulnerability, could not reset themselves as well.

 

[Notwendy]

FF, although I am not diminishing the difficulty of living with a disordered person, it is a spectrum and your wife seems to have many relatively stable qualities.

A main issue seems to be her paranoia and weird religious views.

My comparison point is my BPD mother. Emotionally unstable, raging, screaming all over the house and trashing the house- breaking dishes, throwing food out of the refrigerator all over, sexual inappropriate behavior in front of the kids, constant lying ( to the point we don't know if what she says is true or not), unable to hold any kind of job or do household tasks ( executive function not working), over the top spending sprees at high end stores, demanding luxury vacations and so on. There is more but I think you get the picture.

You have a wife who somehow managed to have 8 kids and keep them cared for - even if it is chaotic, finish a degree, hold a job, doesn't over spend on herself.

Yes she has done some crazy things- accuse you of cheating, been irresponsible with money, but it isn't frequent maxing the credit card at stores.

I think trauma and stress can bring out behaviors in people, but so can other experiences manage them.

If you can find some way to manage the money that is win- win for both of you. Some room for error on her part and some room for a sum of money being kept stable. I try not to sweat all the small stuff. A lot of the big stuff works in our family, maybe not in the way I would do it, but it works anyway, and I think for you, in a lot of ways, yours does too.

Your wife messed up, but is there anyway she can redeem herself even if she is prone to occasional mess ups?

I can't even imagine a divorce with 8 kids and with a functional wife, surely the courts would split the custody at least evenly. You'd still have mixed finances, shared kids, and two households instead of one. You are pretty much together no matter what . Is there any way to make this better?

[formflier]

A main issue seems to be her paranoia and weird religious views.

  Is there any way to make this better?

Well... the less time she has to ruminate... the better.  Summer has been bad for her.  No job to go to, she will enjoy herself... and her "enjoying herself" too much is bad.  Then she "flips" the other way for a while.  (pattern P and I identified)

My "plan" is to leave the door open for her to make this better... .and gently encourage it here and there... .but I'm not going to "poke" or persuade or "push" her for better.

I also won't bring up the text dysregulation... .at the same time I won't save her from it either. 

We've had a couple conversations since the dysregulation that were perfect.  Today a few texts were "fine". 

By and large... .Notwendy... your analysis is spot on.  Sure... we can divorce... .but that doesn't "get rid of her".

Any "thoughtful analysis" shows that divorce makes "it" worse.

I've been quite restrained in intervening in household stuff... religious teaching.  The upside is everytime I have intervened... I've stopped it.

For instance:  My wife teaching my kids it's their job to figure out who the Christians and non-Christians are... .teaching them to be judgmental.  Done... over... .not in my house.  No. 

She apparently values appearances more than teaching the lesson... .so she "submitted".

I don't remember my percentages... .perhaps flourdust can check me.  80% good.  10-15% weird... 5% off the charts freaky.  The breakdown of my marriage.

The "off the charts" is so weird that I just back away... don't engage... "poof" it's over.

The "weird" can be confusing, because it's hard to know if engagement is helpful or hurtful.

Hope that makes sense.

FF

[Cat Familiar]

A bit late to the conversation, but I thought I’d add my two cents to the income discrepancy part.

I was the one with assets when my H and I got together. I spent most of my assets adding onto my small house so that we could live together. We’ve got a beautiful place, mortgage free.

Then he inherited a ton of money. Since then he’s spent some on property improvements and gives me an “allowance” since I’ve depleted my accounts and don’t have that interest income to live on.

He spends wildly upon his own needs at times: does someone who is retired really need a dozen five-figure watches?

My issue is that he usually forgets to give me my allowance, and I’m down to a few dollars by the end of the month. I do have a credit card that he pays for, but typically I spend it only at the hardware store and sometimes at the grocery, but never for my personal expenses.

I absolutely hate asking him for my allowance. I feel like a child, or worse—like a failure.

I’m so busy with chores, I don’t have time to work and even if I did, the things I’ve done in the past—freelance journalism and entrepreneurial ventures—either take too much time or deliver too little financially. And in this rural area, jobs are hard to come by and pay poorly.

A large chunk of what he gives me goes to pay for help on the property. He’s a city boy and does virtually nothing other than go to the dump once a month and take care of the pool. He doesn’t even take out the garbage.

So he seems to think he’s giving me a generous sum, while most of it goes for animal feed and expenses and I have very little for personal whims.

The guilt trip to ask for more isn’t worth it and I manage OK, but income inequality can certainly trigger resentment in a marriage.

[Cat Familiar]

Oh, and I’ve asked him to set up a direct deposit a few times, but he’s not done so.

Sorry for hijack, FF!

[braveSun]

Thankfully it wasn't thrift store/extravagant but the difference was significant. BPD mom is Saks/Neiman Marcus. Dad's clothes were from Target/Kohls.

As you can imagine, two married people living at different income levels is triggering to me.

I need to add that my spouse has offered to buy nice clothes and the good foods I want at times too. Sometimes I am pleased and want that, and sometimes it just feels right to be included, and I prefer to pass. To ant up my contribution in my own ways, so to speak. 

It's not that clear cut. More like depending on moods fluctuations. I like what Notwendy brings here because the idea that it can come as a trigger seems to fit for me too. It's not all the time like that. It also adds confusion, naturally.

Wondering as well, about the possibility to regroup these things, but gradually, over time... Like in small steps at a time. I've read on some other board about 'building credit' between spouses to help heal the marriage. That was about doing nice things for your spouse, even if you find yourself in a low place in that department and you didn't reach your goals in a one time shot (read discouragement).

Personally I like the idea of 'building trust credit' for a small shared account. I would have it with no big essential nor future-building consequences attached. My mom used to grow a small savings on her very small salary, sometimes just for Christmas presents. Along the way, she would help us grown kids, if we did get in a pinch, and we felt that much responsible to return the money to the pot as soon as possible. Do you think such an idea could be of interest to your spouse as a matching partner, say for a short term gig?

I think trauma and stress can bring out behaviors in people, but so can other experiences manage them.

If you can find some way to manage the money that is win- win for both of you. Some room for error on her part and some room for a sum of money being kept stable.

... .it's hard to know if engagement is helpful or hurtful.

  Sounds to me its more like fishing...

[formflier]

  Sounds to me its more like fishing...

Except... .I enjoy fishing... even if nothing gets on the hook... .   

FF

[formflier]

And a small "shared" account would bring up the "issue" of who shares contributions and who shares expenses.

I'd be happy to discuss it and come up with a compromise... .however, she likely understands that would me she would have to START contributing to family finances from HER money.

Here is the thing... she kinda does now, whenever she buys groceries or whatever she does with her money.

But paying mortgage, light bill, insurance... etc etc.  100% from "my money".

My gut says she would rather keep status quo... .rather than open up a discussion about "sharing" household expenses.

The time or two she has realized the impact of wanting to share... ."well... .you are supposed to do all that anyway... ." (at which point... my wallet and my ears close)

Just to give you a flavor of things.

FF

[braveSun]

  The time or two she has realized the impact of wanting to share... ."well... .you are supposed to do all that anyway... ." (at which point... my wallet and my ears close)

Would she mean that you are supposed to do that because you are the one with the most income?

That's why I was thinking of something small that does not change the current structure of your finances at the moment, but adds flexibility.

You brought the idea of her paying for a share of the household expenses with her money. Would that be a goal you have in mind? You also say that she already pays for some of it with hers.

I’m going to try to guess it a bit to make my point. For you it may be meaningful that she contributes to the household expenses just like you do because it gives more perspective to both of you. She gets to keep an eye out and be responsible for the whole picture and you get to feel she is fully on board as a team member. For this to stimulate good will, there would need to be full transparency from both parties.

Thing is, she's making less than you. If you would be interested in setting up a third account for the household, could you consider proportional funding according to both of your different incomes? But I was not even going there.

I was thinking more of some kind of 'cash flow' type of house pot, so it does not have too much consequences on the stability of the household finances nor the future. More like an in-house money pot (the glass jar on the top of the fridge). Has to be small enough that it can be repaid back by next pay cheque. And nobody needs to ask for money. Everybody knows at all times how much there is left in the pot.

It’s possible to use this as a way to encourage all people's initiative and good will rather than prescribe it. To start off the person with most discretionary income funds it. A smallish amount. (Example $300). Than either her or you can borrow from it while in a pinch, but must reimburse the money asap. What that does is add some ease with everyday spending, but it also acts as an accountability buffer for the strained times when, say, this month it's all borrowed, so there we need to go more thrifty. In other words, it allows for both parties to take charge of their own oopsies.

Now this is best case scenario. There will be oppsies and it is suspected that FF will have to help to pay. But, if there is FF showing that he's not interfering with the oppsies, than it takes the heat off a little.

My mother used that for a Christmas fund. So there was an end goal attached to it.
Which naturally comes second when there are smallish emergencies along the way, but it’s also positively compelling to re-establish the balance regularly.

My idea was to create ways to rebuild a bit of ‘trust credit’ within the couple, and at same time stay within a small range that empowers any level of earners. You might have a common small dream you might share, and would go for a mutual (reciprocal) saving gig for it. Has to be a mutual interest.

Even if she fails it and you end up paying for all of it 80% of the time FF, in the end, would it be worst than being asked for the money and have to go through the whole shenanigan on and on and on? Would she be interested in that if you start by acknowledging that she pays for some household expenses as it is anyway, so you thought of adding something that can help with the everyday 'situations'?

[Notwendy]

I was going to ask the same thing. I agree that both spouses should contribute to family expenses but what is a fair arrangement when one spouse earns less than the other?

When we were both making the same amount ( and even for a brief time I made more), we both contributed equally. As my salary decreased compared to my H's it has gone to to savings ( college funds) , retirement fund, and extras such as summer camps for the kids. These aren't daily household expenses but they still are contributions.

Where does household labor factor into the equation?

One idea- although your military benefits cover some of your kids' college expenses, you know there is always the extras- dorm stuff, school supplies, computers, and most scholarships don't cover everything. Would your wife consider contributing to a long term savings ear marked for college such as a 529 or 5 year CD. Something she can't get into and spend impulsively? It could be a small amount in case she did, but it could be a "testing ground" for a joint account.

[Enabler]

I would feel comfortable with both people having the same disposable income... .some feel very happy with a different setup.

[formflier]

"I'm supposed to" is a religious view.

A christian man takes care of his family and provides everything.  The wife stays home and raises the kids.

Since I don't provide... I'm not a christian man and I'm "forcing" her to work. 

Note:  When we were on good terms and we were considering a move, the "deal" was that she applied for job... and if she got it... we would move.  Since my vocational status would be up in the air (disability and some other issues).

She got the job, we moved... .now she wants to change the story.   I don't debate the story... .

Also... .only once or twice have I asked questions such as "If I don't provide... how did the mortgage get paid?"  (yeah... that was fun to watch the reasoning)


So... .in truth, I don't earn w-2 income at the moment.  Due to real estate things, the last couple tax returns have been close to or at our all time high (after CPAs work them as hard as they can).  I'm hoping for a similar result this year.

Big picture:  I'm reducing (selling) much of my real estate exposure because prices are good and I need to simplify my life. 

So... money is an issue... but it's not "THE" issue.  I'm certainly open to working on things and trying different stuff... but I won't "push" any of it.  She is discovering the limits and benefits of her choices through her own actions... .I'm reluctant to interfere with that.

My understanding of the "root" of all this is she wants to be home and wants me in a job.  I'm where she is "supposed to be"... .and percentages, accounts, college funds and oopsies aren't going to change that... .

Perhaps I'm wrong... .and I'm not saying I won't try if she brings things up... .but trying to keep in context.

FF

[formflier]

Hey guys... wonderful thread... keep up the ideas about splitting money and all that.  I was responding to jrharvey's thread about physical stuff (he got a door slammed on him) and was reminded of the last physical event between my wife and I.  Where she hit me with a debit card.


jrharvey's thread

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=326766.msg12981192#msg12981192


the result of my wife hitting me with the debit card

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=315549.0



Anyway... .this likely helps "inform" you guys about why I've taken the "stance" that I have about financial things and "solving reasonable" problems.

My wife was wanting a way to know for sure that money in an account was "spendable" by her and what on.  The bank we use allows some free text with a transfer.  So... I could transfer money in and say "money for steel workbench sams club".

If my wife saw the transfer and the money was there... she was free to spend the money at sams club on a steel workbench.

That note was the "proof" that we had discussed it and both agreed.

Her basic claim was that I was "forgetting" our conversations and she had "no way" to know when she could spend and not get into trouble.  So... .we did problem solving... came up with a solution (I believe she then realized she would loose a dysfunctional "tool"... .which made her mad... .and she threw and hit me with a debit card.

FF

[Notwendy]

I think you have touched at the heart of this and the emotion behind your control of the money.

I know families that are in your denomination of Christianity. They tend to be large families, the wife at home, often home schooled and the husband is the provider. I don't know if this is a requirement of your denomination but it seems to be also common and I can imagine that your wife had hopes to be in this situation and was at some point.

Aside from the fact that this arrangement is not the only one among couples who are members of a variety of denominations, this is the one that matters to your wife, and she is disappointed. IMHO, I think your wife's definition of who is a Christian is a narrow one, and she may even be wrong about that, but it doesn't factor into your situation because she is your wife and she feels what she feels and wants what she wants.

Your wife is going to feel/believe what she feels and if feelings are facts to her, looking at facts, or Biblical definitions, or any logic on your part is not going to change her feelings.

She wants what she believes is a traditional Christian marriage arrangement and she doesn't have it.

How will the two of you work through this? She has to be able to feel her feelings, express them and feel validated. I know you probably feel you have done this as much as you can stand, but you are a logical guy with a feeling wife.

It seems your wife likes her job. Would she choose to do it even if you were the sole provider? She may be in victim perspective when she says you are forcing her. I wonder if some of what she is saying is just her venting- and not something you need to change. You may just need to hear the venting and not feel triggered.

[braveSun]

A few things...

I would feel comfortable with both people having the same disposable income.

I'm like Enabler there.
I realize it can be a slippery slope, and I also know we're talking about your spouse being on the high end of the spectrum.

Fairness to acknowledge there is a layer in the situation that's well, usual financial stuff between spouses. With that layer in mind we go for the deeper feelings of both persons and we kind of get warmed up for a middle way type of arrangement.

But she is also on the spectrum. My take is, she may have an understanding of the situational unfairness, and she might respond to this with the expected emotional reaction of people with her condition. Both. In this case, doing nothing and keep full control is not ethically advisable. Thus the appeal to the religious precepts.

Yes, she may be self interested.

Yes, she may take advantage of an opening for good will. FF has that on the corner of his eyes I'm sure. I certainly would if it'd be me.

From what I see, the issue is still pending and the discourse on the texts seems to have quite a specificity. So we know that. She also addressed your letter in some of her text, so that means she heard you.

You did acknowledged that you have different views. Quite frankly you're both coming in from different backgrounds, AND you've had some good years in the past, even though you did have these different perspectives all along.  

Would there be some interest in experimenting about including both FF's and FFW's  feelings in something that is designed to change the direction of focus, while at same time allow for both FFW and FF to experiment on self regulation for those deeper emotions?

Would there be a temporary possibility to experiment in some sort of sandbox in order to figure out if indeed you two are disagreeing, or you are both saying the same thing in different ways?

It appears to me that you both are being reasonable with the money right now.

You are in a long term relationship. How do you allow space between both of you to grow out of your own ways, so to speak?

She might not be able to discuss with you on those terms, considering her difficulty with emotional regulation. But she might get along with something she feels makes sense.



This...

My wife was wanting a way to know for sure that money in an account was "spendable" by her and what on.  The bank we use allows some free text with a transfer.  So... I could transfer money in and say "money for steel workbench sams club".

If my wife saw the transfer and the money was there... she was free to spend the money at sams club on a steel workbench.

That note was the "proof" that we had discussed it and both agreed.

Her basic claim was that I was "forgetting" our conversations and she had "no way" to know when she could spend and not get into trouble.  So... .we did problem solving... came up with a solution (I believe she then realized she would loose a dysfunctional "tool"... .which made her mad... .and she threw and hit me with a debit card.

FF

I have mixed feelings when I read that FF. I did have a similar experience with my spouse, where she was giving me a credit card and did not reveal enough information about her own finances for me to know how much spending was OK and how much was too much. I could not make any decisions there on my own solid grounds because I didn't know the grounds. Does that make any sense?

It felt disempowering for me, and humiliating as well, because I'm usually pretty good with managing my own finances when I'm alone. I do have to know the whole budget, though. Figuring out the consequences is not really an issue for me.

The experience was however quite scary, when I realized that my spouse had control over me with the whole financial situation, and was not inclined to share some of the information. Yet she only said "It's my money" when questioned (bad bad me!... ), or "I don't have enough for your needs"  when I tried to bring in some perspective of inequalities.

All in all, for me, it was a sheer lack of transparency from her part. This lack was because of her own issues and she is being triggered, no doubts. This is not because I am not trust-worthy. But she feels that way!... .

That throws me out in the boonies.  (bad bad me again!... )

Ok. So. With your situation, I tend to want to see another meaning with what your spouse is saying.

AND, ... I also know that the debit card hit did not hit your wallet but your heart.

FF, I owe you a BIG favor.

 

That was just a no-filter throw.