This could be a metaphor for relationships.

Faith can be stepping out of the way and letting people learn to solve their own dilemmas. It isn't necessary to be an emotional fixer at times. It actually takes away the learning experience for the other person. Doing little while your wife is in an emotional storm may be the best thing.

This is different from doing nothing for your own betterment. If we want to buy something, we need to earn the money for it. I don't think God wants us to not do what we can for ourselves but we also need to not step across other people's boundaries. We should give to charity, help others, but not take away their ability to help themselves as much as they can. People with a mental illness may be limited in that extent, but even with limitations, people need the self pride of also doing what they can for themselves and others.

I believe that in addition to "free will"... .God also gave us, graced us, .blessed us with common sense, .

I have always thought to myself, that God is always very busy, and if I can take care of something on my own, then that "frees up" the Good Lord to do more important things, like get those poor kids outa that cave in Thailand!

I meant that as humor... .and thank God that those kids are being recused !... .but seriously, God wants us to ask for help, for courage, for guidance in our everyday lives... .which are fraught with many pitfalls, and obstacles to be sure.

I ask the Good Lord daily for help, protection, guidance, and the ability to see the path before me... .for the good of all, not just me.

The ability to ask for these things, and not to expect what we want, but what is Gods perfect will for us, that's where the faith part comes in in (imho).

In relationships, there are two people, both "creations" of God, and both have the "free will" programing, .I have come to realize, after many years... that God cannot, and will not "change" someone's else's heart for us, .that is up to that individual person... .that's the hard part to understand... .I prayed for years for God to restore my first marriage... .but in the end it failed to survive, .it was kind of a "Lot's wife moment" I guess... .and in the end, I got my kids, and we escaped... ."free will"... .powerful stuff !

Good thread !

Red5

Thanks random bible vs .com for another killer well timed verse!

Proverbs 19:20 (Listen)

20 Listen to advice and accept instruction,
that you may gain wisdom in the future.

What is actually stopping her from divorcing you if she wants to do it?

I wonder if, by not divorcing you, she gets secondary gain by feeling like a victim, and she and OM can have the longing of "forbidden love".

It's human nature to see something you can't have with fantasy and illusion. OM is just a human and probably not nearly as exciting day to day as she imagines. I'm not advocating divorce or having this happen,  but wonder if she was free to be with OM all the time, she might be disappointed. In any event she would bring her dysfunction with her.

Well yet another non-work day has come and gone and the forms she needs to complete and return to further the divorce process have stayed in the pile, buried deep with kids school things. The envelope has been opened, the forms viewed
No doubt but popped back in for more consideration. It’s been 3 weeks now.

I think talk of divorce and ‘abuse’ from me gains her connection with people... .mainly her family and her bully pitying sister. Families are odd like that, for all their dysfunction we find ourselves relentlessly attempting to get it to work above all other things. If only she knew that it was impossible unless her mum has a biblical amount of therapy and a life U turn. Pity/rescue = love to her.

OM is a nut job and I rest heavily on the following verse

2 Corinthians 11:13-15
For such men are false apostles, deceitful workers, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. No wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. Therefore it is not surprising if his servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness, whose end will be according to their deeds.


The boards have taught me many many things about what to expect with any potential divorce, my behaviour now is magnified like a ripple into the future. I can’t control what happens then but I can control how I deal with it and the things I prioritise during the process. Remain outcome orientated.

I 100% agree and believe this is what is happening. The frustration that they cannot be together is killing her. Every time I attend an event where they might be able to spend time together socialising as a “couple”... .sorry, as “friends”, she gets all narky, as though I’m depriving her of some kind of entitlement.

The thing is she has a fight on 2 fronts. One front is the affair, which she’s convinced most people isn’t going on and it’s just another arm of my abuse, and the second front is all the people she has enabling her to get a divorce. The people involved in the divorce will start to expect progress... .they will expect to see her stay in the lifeboat not just jump back in the sea. She runs the risk of alienating those who are rescuing her... .then she reaches the new low. Those who rescued her will all turn to perpetrators.

She asked me this evening whether it was okay for her to go running at 6:30am leaving our D5 / D8 & D9 at home alone... .she feels a sense of entitlement to the exercise that keeps her emotions medicated! But really?

Hi Enabler and all,

Regarding the balance between faith and action, this is the "process" that has worked out for me at a number of significant times in my life (mainly career-related):

1. Acknowledge the existence of a problem or an area in which you feel your life circumstances could be improved.
2. Pray for God to help out with that and ensure you are following His laws to the best of your knowledge and ability, both the ones that apply to the problem area and generally. << I understand from the Bible that this is a precondition for the process to work. If you aren't doing that, you can always start from now. Also check that your request from Step 1 actually is compatible with God's laws, and modify it accordingly if not. For example, is what you really need just something to deal with hurtful feelings that you are experiencing, as opposed to a specific change of circumstances from X to Y?
3. Take some kind of a practical real-life step to acknowledge and be involved in the improvement process (start actively job hunting, start house hunting, get an MC, etc.) Continue doing this level of involvement. Keep praying. << I have found in my experience that taking a practical step is important, I can't prove this theologically and YMMV. Maybe it functions as a commitment to show that you are serious about wanting the change IRL.
4. Wait. ... .Repeat. ... .Wait some more. ... .Wait till you think you have waited for ages and you can't possibly wait any more and this is really unfair and you want the thing NOW PLEASE. << This right here is the part where you grow. Like working out, if you stop when it's still easy you haven't made any strength gains, but if you keep going till you are not sure if you can actually do one more rep, then you have made a strength gain.
5. In God's timing, an amazing solution or blessing shows up which you would not have thought of or discovered by your Step 3 human activities.
Congratulations! You have just levelled up. Repeat as often as you like.

I'm well aware that God is not a slot machine and this is not a magic method to exploit Him for blessings. What it is is a series of events or stages that I have experienced on a number of different occasions for different reasons, that has always followed the same pattern and worked out in the same way.

This includes my current "problem area", and recognizing the pattern was how I knew for example that my OM-of-interest was not the solution (step 2, check compliance with God's laws, Number 7 as Red5 and NotWendy point out, not happening, please modify the request and proceed to Step 3 + 4). I would love to be able to tell your W about some of the "signs" there that I could have taken as such if I'd been her way inclined. It's true God sends to His children signs and angel messengers, but it's also true that He allows for His children tests and Satan-originated temptations. It sounds like your W is lacking in discernment in this respect, and/or having what discernment she has overridden by all the contrary reinforcement, especially from the OM.

Hope that helps,
BetterLanes x

I have two big thoughts... .1 religious and 1 "practical", that might put enabler back in control... vice reacting.


Prov 4:23 (protect your heart) is a great verse.  I'm a fan of the entire passage.  Passing down advice on how to best "serve" in this world.

I find it interesting that "protecting your heart" is critical to service... .because "all else flows from there".

I simplify it for me personally to say (in my head) "protect myself from the worst, so I can be of service to the best... "


Second idea (about OM):  Remind me again if this guy is in a leadership or official capacity in a church?  Do the laws allow you to go after someone that is knowingly interfering in your marriage. 

Some states/countries have laws that basically say "you may be held liable for knowing interfering with a marriage".

Anyway... .it would be interesting to expose them, especially if there could be real consequences.  Shining the light on hypocrisy usually has interesting results.  Said another way... .there is a reason they have said those things in private, vice preach them from pulpit.  Once there is real risk of actual beliefs and actions becoming public... .there could be very interesting results.

FF

I think you have a responsibility to remove the ability to "plead ignorance".

It's not exactly the same "issue"... .but I think "A Time to choose" could be a theme for you... and the rest of the church.  Are we really going to do this... or be pretenders.

https://biblicalcounseling.com/2018/05/a-time-for-choosing/

Thoughts?  Clarity  substitute adultery for DV.

FF

Enabler... .

In a Christian spirit (sometimes hard to convey in writing) I would hope to point you to the scripture.

Any plain reading of the discipline process in Matthew would seem to suggest that you keep involving others (it gets bigger and bigger) until the church takes a stand or the person(s) in sin repent.

If a church or church leader chooses to ignore adultery so a church service can be more vibrant (is that basically what you are suggesting?)... .then that (to me) shows a stunning amount of disregard for God's word.

My guess is that you have stopped short of "removing all doubt" so a church leader was able to press on "without knowing the full truth".  

In fairness to church leaders, it's not their job to investigate.  It is their job (and other Christians) to hear what is brought before them (matters of sin).

Again... .I don't see a fine line... .or any line really, as long as you are speaking the truth.

Now... .if you went to your husband job... .or neighbor (not in the church)... .or other people "that aren't involved"... .then again, there is no fine line it is a smear campaign

Said another way, I don't see anyway that bringing this to the church is a smear campaign.  "any" is a big word... .I was thoughtful when I chose it.

   

There is no suggestion in the Bible this will be an easy process.  I also don't see any suggestion that it's OK for you to "ignore" this.

Your spouse appears to be ignoring the importance of your marriage vows.  Those vows were made to who? (very serious question actually... please answer it)

I would encourage you to take your vows seriously... .

Thoughts?

FF

They were made to me in front of God.

She has devalued those promises and annulled the marriage in her head as per Dobsons p101-104 "to resolve martital guilt... ."I know what I am doing is difficult for you now, but someday you will understand that it is for the best. I never really loved you even when we were young. In fact, we should never have gotten married in the first place. Furthermore, this divorce is really your fault. You drove me to it by _______(insert greivance here, such as frigidity, in-law problems, nagging, overwork or all the foregoing)"

Extracts from Whatsap last years from her:
"It would not be okay for me to stay married to you because I feel guilty in causing you so much emotional damage when we were first together. I know that has been one of the drivers in the past for me staying when I didn't feel our relationship was okay. "

"I simply can't have my husband trying to pin a mental health issue on me, following all the anger, coercion and controlling. Irrespective of whether past behaviour of mine led to such behaviour, or whether or not the behaviour was intentional. It's all just too much. The bottom line is I have never felt heard, understood, cherished, accepted, comfortable, safe, emotionally supported, so never actually felt truly loved. I know you love me, but I cannot reconcile the anger, control and coercion with love, it's confusing and is damaging. And you have done it to the kids too. I tried to get you to hear me and understand my need for boundaries so many times but I just received venom and denial back. This has all been going on for so long, for so many years, and I just need an end to it."

I guess I could have quoted the entire thing... .it's hard to know what to quote and what to leave out.

Perhaps there is a mental health issue here (I'm almost certain of it) and I'm certain there is a spiritual issue here.

There are wide variety of wedding vows, do you know exactly what you guys vowed? 

How does that compare with her "reasoning" now? 

 

FF

N, will you take N to be your husband?
Will you love him, comfort him, honour and protect him,
and, forsaking all others,
be faithful to him as long as you both shall live?

Followed by


I, N, take you, N,
to be my wife,
to have and to hold
from this day forward;
for better, for worse,
for richer, for poorer,
in sickness and in health,
to love and to cherish,
till death us do part;
according to God’s holy law.
In the presence of God I make this vow.

I made my vows to her in front of God.

Red, I have told him (multiple times)  and he sent me an 8 page email. They both deny what they know I have read... .what you have read in fact... .and threatened that if I show anyone else any “private communications” they will report me to the police. There is no sense of guilt, no send of shame, or maybe there is so much that it has to be covered up with threats of “the law”, and the “the law” is not biblical, it says that I should have had access to their private communications and therefore I am in the “wrong”. Morally and biblically maybe I/we can argue not... .but we live in the real world where people can lie, people can deceive and people can get an awful lot of rescuing whilst they are committing horrible sins in the background. I have to strike a balance between the 2.

I would hope you can examine your thinking, prayerfully... .regarding "having to" strike a balance.

Red quoted the scripture that was mainly on my mind.  Certainly there are other Biblical principles in other places that support this. 

Just because you believe someone else will lie, doesn't mean you shouldn't Biblically involve the appropriate people.

Frankly, my view is that is exactly why you involve the appropriate other people.

I would think inviting in the police and "legitimate" investigators would be a good step, although I would suggest you do it and this point.

If they were to ever do that... .I can't imagine how an accurate... or even close to accurate view of their actual communications in anyway hurts you.

   

When you read your vows... .is there any hint or thought of "balancing" things?

Seriously?

FF

Verse six (6) resonates to me... .