Coparent Child Exchange at Police Department

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

I've heard about parents having conflicts with the other coparent during times when they exchange the kids.  This seems to happen to me about once every month.  Usually the UBPD mom doesn't show up when she says she is or she just disappears and doesn't pick the kids up at all.  I've heard that our police department has a program where parents can drop the kids off and the other parent can pick them up from there so that the two parents don't have to see each other. 

I'm hoping that something like this would increase the UBPD mom's feeling of responsibility so that she doesn't disappear on the kids.  This also may be a good strategy for documenting ocassions where the UBPD mom doesn't show up at all. 

Has anyone heard about or used a program like this or something similar?  What are your experiences and thoughts? 

[AnuDay]

I've heard about parents having conflicts with the other coparent during times when they exchange the kids.  This seems to happen to me about once every month.  Usually the UBPD mom doesn't show up when she says she is or she just disappears and doesn't pick the kids up at all.  I've heard that our police department has a program where parents can drop the kids off and the other parent can pick them up from there so that the two parents don't have to see each other. 

I'm hoping that something like this would increase the UBPD mom's feeling of responsibility so that she doesn't disappear on the kids.  This also may be a good strategy for documenting ocassions where the UBPD mom doesn't show up at all. 

Has anyone heard about or used a program like this or something similar?  What are your experiences and thoughts? 

[Panda39]

AnuDay,

I have some questions... .

How would you institute this change?  Would it require you to go back to court?  If you are planning to use this to document when your ex fails to pick up the kids, what do you plan on doing with that information? 

I also want to ask why is it your responsibility to manage your ex and her visitation with the kids? Is that your role?

How are you and the kids handling these occasions with the kids when mom doesn't show?  Are your kids in therapy at all?

Panda39

[livednlearned]

It sounds like her not showing up is the conflict? As opposed to she behaves in a high-conflict way during the exchange?

In my county, it's recommended for two parties who can't interact without aggression of some kind.

If she isn't showing up, that's awful for the kids, and inconvenient for you. I'm not sure how a police station exchange would help.

Does she show deference to authority?

Maybe if she is not showing up, it's because she is capable of barely taking care of herself.

I would worry that a police station exchange, if that motivates her, might motivate her for the wrong reasons.

If you ever want to change the custodial order to get more time, documenting her missed visits can be a hidden gift.

My ex fought like a wolverine to get more time, but even during an active modification period, he would cancel his time with our son and not try and recoup it elsewhere.

So we counted up the hours he gave away freely and that seemed to satisfy the judge that n/BPDx was more interested in not losing than actually having more time with our son.

[AnuDay]

I get it.  Basically like livednlearned said it's an inconvenience when she doesn't pick them up and it saddens the kids. 
Livednlearned, I guess the police station isn't the answer in this case because there's no aggression and I can see how it might backfire. Panda, I have no clue how other people do it or if the court is involved.
You're right Lived, my exes mom told me that my ex was barely surviving on her own.

Thank you for the added clarity.

[livednlearned]

That's hard for the kids

How do they handle things when mom doesn't show up?

[AnuDay]

That's hard for the kids

How do they handle things when mom doesn't show up?

It's hard to say.  Usually I'm stressed because I'm trying to figure out what I'm going to do.  Initially they were confused and worried like "where is she?".  But that was months ago, now that it has happened more often they are more "used to it".  Plus they have started feeling more comfortable at my place without their mom.  For the past three weeks one of them even explicitly expressed that they didn't want to go back to their moms.  In fact this past Friday I was going to take them straight to their mom's designated babysitter because they're mom couldn't pick them up and they were quite happy with that.  It seemed like they couldn't care less if their mom didn't pick them up.  I really don't think they're that close, but at the same time it's their mother and they love her deeply.  They all fight alot when they're together though.  My oldest is often late to school or doesn't go.  Things are really in disarray at the mom's apartment from what I can sense.

[soundofmusicgirl]

We did /do the exchanges at the police station. We do them there because BPDmom can't behave and usually brings half of her family to exchanges and than they all act aggressive.
We had some really good experiences with that. The police arranged it so that BPDmom is on the other side of the building and an officer will escort the children to "our" side of the building. We did not even have to see BPDmom. It was a heaven sent.

But your case is different. If BPDmom can't manage to pick them up I would start counting on that being the new normal and already have plans in place. it will save you and the kids a lot of heart burn. That  way you are not stuck trying to find someone to care for the children last minute but instead you know and the kids know that you will take care of them and have a plan in place. I would not even drive the kids to BPDmoms babysitter (unless that is the specific arrangement in the court order). You are the parent and if BPDmom can't take care of them you will (or a babysitter that you vetted and trust will).
As horrible as it sounds, I wish we would be in your situation, because you have the chance to be with your children and help them and protect them. In our case BPDmom moves heaven and earth to interrupt, interfere and destroy any relationship between my husband and his boys.

[ForeverDad]

I would agree with the consensus here, conflict and discord are the usual reasons to need a neutral and monitored exchange location.

Your comment that she sometimes doesn't come to get the kids raises an issue you may choose to address the next time you're in family court or modifying the parenting order.  I recall years ago I saw a mother and children sitting at the sheriff's parking lot.  She told me she had to get the kids ready and go to the exchange location and then wait a half hour (our county's accepted "wait window" before going back home or resuming their activities.  It was clear many exchanges were missed but she was still required to halt their activities to go sit waiting for a predictable no-show, surely frustrating for both her and the kids too.

Do you think she will continue missing some exchanges?  Here's an idea and if done right could sidestep claims you're sabotaging exchanges... .  Have a clause added to your order, or perhaps her agreeing to this in email or written documentation, that if either parent misses an exchange (or two sequential exchanges) without advance notice then the parent in possession of the children can require the other parent to confirm 24 hours in advance the next exchange when the other parent will be available.  (I write "either parent" because it is hard to get a court to see a one-sided agreement as equitable.)  The benefit is that the parent in possession of the children doesn't have to disrupt activities for what had real risk of being failed anyway.

If you had a high conflict ex then that remedy would be objected to.  But your ex appears to be a parent who isn't seeking every parenting period and this would let her live life within her comfort zone without disrupting your lives as much.  Later, after you've documented what her parenting pattern has become, then you could ask the court to adjust the order to match the reality.

[AnuDay]

Thank you everyone for your advice.  Musicgirl, in an act of desperation (I had to get to work) I took the kids to the Mom's babysitter that day and the babysitter wasn't even there.  So I won't do that again.  This is my 1st year going on my 2nd so I'm still learning, every once in a while I think the BPD is "gone" and I go into a lull where I'm not really planning for the next outbreak.  I still get thrown for a loop when the BPD mom goes on one of her tantrums and I haven't been able to adjust quick enough to her antics.  I will definitely have to make sure I have plans in place for the next time she disappears. 

[kells76]

I will definitely have to make sure I have plans in place for the next time she disappears.

That's a great idea. I wonder if it's a mental shift for you to switch from "Shoot, I have to work, and the kids are with me -- Mom should take care of them" to "Shoot, I have to work, and the kids are with me -- I've come up with a list of people I trust to take care of them, and I'll call one of them".

DH was in a similar place as yours the first year out. I think I remember one of the kids fell at the playground and skinned a knee or something, during his PT. He took her to Mom's house to clean it up... .

In a way, it's an understandable mindset. That's how he had done things for years when he and Mom were together. If DH couldn't do something for the kids, then Mom was the backup. As you already know, things need to change after divorce.

I wonder if your city has something like a drop-in Boys and Girls club, YMCA child care, or city-run kid program -- just something you could check on as a backup. If you're involved in a church or religious group, maybe post in announcements that you sometimes need on-call child care -- people are often happy to help. If you have family in town that can be really helpful. Do you know any of the kids' friends' parents? Even if not super super well, if you get a good vibe from them, and are honest, you could even (without asking THEM to do it) ask this -- "Sometimes I need on-the-spot child care, and I'm not really sure who to ask. Can you recommend anyone?"

Hope some of these ideas help;

kells76

[livednlearned]

You mentioned the police exchange would be a good way to document when she doesn't show up.

I found that simply keeping those kinds of events documented in a calendar were helpful. I used Google calendar and Google docs (which has a time stamp in the version history, in case I needed that level of detail covered).

It seems the simple act of keeping track of this stuff is considered enough evidence, at least it did for me. Kind of a low bar, but I guess when the other party is making things up, or behaving strangely, just the simple act of documenting what happened can win the day.

That's only if you go back to court to make a modification.

And if you do, I would ask the court to have her come to you for pick ups on her days, with a short window for waiting if she has not texted you within x amount of hours to notify you that she will be late. That way you can pivot quickly.

If any of her pick up times look like they could impact you getting to work on time, or missing work, those would be the times that require the strictest boundaries. Maybe you end up eliminating pick up times that come close to your work schedule.

All of this does require radical acceptance that you will be doing the lion's share of parenting. I found that to be difficult but preferable, and needed the court order to get in line with the reality on the ground.

[AnuDay]

Looks like Soundofmusicgirl had a remarkable premonition.  I just texted the UBPD mom to let her know I would be picking up my daughters tonight and she sent me a text back (it looks like a letter addressed to me drafted by a lawyer) saying she is revoking parenting time due to me emotionally and verbally abusing her. 

[ForeverDad]

I just texted the UBPD mom to let her know I would be picking up my daughters tonight and she sent me a text back (it looks like a letter addressed to me drafted by a lawyer) saying she is revoking parenting time due to me emotionally and verbally abusing her.

You were concerned mother wasn't taking her parenting time when she was scheduled and this is what she does?  This highlights a huge risk many of us face — about ourselves and our Nice Guy & Nice Gal personalities — where we are too concerned about being overly fair when we really ought to be focused more on self-protection.

If you have an order, even a temporary order, anything documented as a court order or agreement, then contact your local police to ask for assistance in the exchange.  After all, from what you described, she is complaining about adult conflict and nothing about her having concerns about your parenting.  Your solution should be to suggest meeting at a "safe" and neutral location or if she declines then to arrive at the exchange location the same time as a "peace officer".  The officer would be present to ensure no incident occurs.  That is standard assistance the police provide, to be the buffer between parents.

If your police are anything like mine, they will attempt to convince her to allow the exchange.  They will be present so any "incident" she is concerned about won't happen.  If she still refuses then the officer will plead with you to "let it go for now and/or address the disagreement in court".  Most police will try to defuse a situation, plea for the parties to follow the order (if there is one) but do no more except to say to deal with it in court.

Your response will be to ask for a copy of the officer's report.  That will be needed for court to determine whether she followed the order or not and whether she had basis to do so.  Be fully aware that court won't be too concerned about how the failed exchange impacted the kids, that the kids lost time with you, that the kids ought to have makeup time, that she ought to have consequences, etc.  Still, you can ask, you might get something that improves the order going forward.

Ponder with your lawyer what can be done to make the order more rubust, less open for her to contrive loopholes or push the limits of the designed vagueness of some boilerplate terms.  For example, "reasonable" telephone contact or "mutually agreed" exchange locations are designed for parents who can co-parent, not high conflict situations.

Edit:  Be careful not to share too much information with her.  If you say, you didn't complain about the children's safety so the exchange is still on, she may then edit her message and expand it to include safety of the children.  See what I mean?  Don't explain to her, she won't listen to you, at least not positively.  Just the required info needed.  For example, "I am sorry you feel that way.  I will have the police arrive with me and supervise/monitor the exchange to ensure we avoid that."  (We don't ever validate their claims but we can address how they feel.  In addition, it gives a paper trail where we are not just super polite, we also demonstrate to the professionals that we are solid problem solvers.)

[ForeverDad]

Was my reply too late to implement today?  If the exchange failed today then, in addition to consulting your lawyer tomorrow for a court remedy, could you attempt a replacement of the missed time?

For example, if you do get an exchange using the police as buffers then (once they are with you) you could inform her that their return will be that much later, if 24 hours missed then they would be returned 24 hours later.  I don't know how legal that position is but it shouldn't be too hard to explain it as reasonable to a judge.  (My court wasn't too concerned about make-up time, their focus was on 'fixing' things going forward.)

Do let us know how it all turned out and whether the police were able to provide their (limited) assistance.

Odds are she will discover complaining about how she feels won't get much traction in court and I predict she will expand it to include the kids.  She may go beyond sending you a letter and file in court for protection or restraining order.  At that point children's services or CPS may get involved to determine whether you really are a risk or not to the kids.  Yes, you may not get unsupervised contact for a few weeks until the issues can be investigated and reported to the court but then that short term allegation should be past.

As I wrote in my previous post, it's not to your advantage to inform her of any legal missteps or weaknesses in her obstructions.  For example, if she had denied the visit because based solely on her feelings, that doesn't include the children.  Court will consider it separate from the parenting schedule.  However, once she discovers the mistake, expect her to promptly include the children.  You or your lawyer may be able to use that chain of events to document her real purpose, to obstruct your parenting.  You could reason she claimed her feelings to cancel the exchange, then when that failed she included the children to cancel exchanges.  Your point is that she wasn't really trying to protect the children, she was trying to obstruct your parenting.

My case, my ex alleged she and our son needed protection from me in an ex parte motion where I wasn't present.  By the time the next hearing was scheduled, two weeks, for me to be present and defend myself, CPS had already done a phone interview with me and was present in court to stand and state, "Your honor, we (CPS) have "no concerns".

[AnuDay]

Yeah, you're right ForeverDad.  One minute I'm worried that she's not picking the kids up so she responds by not letting me see the kids at all... .this is so crazy.  My whole family tells me I need to stop being so nice (I wish it were that easy).  I guess I have to be firm for the kids sake.  I was not able to get my kids today because the mom wasn't responding to texts.  The only text she sent me was the one stating that due to emotional abuse she won't allow me to see the kids.  I have never heard this one from her.  We have had failed exchanges in the past, but this one takes the cake. I guess I will have to file for a custody order.  I'm new to this, but I'm not going to wait a few days for her to change her mind again (eg. when she's in a bind and needs a babysitter).  I'm going to try to file tomorrow. 

[DivDad]

I would document all the parent scheduling violations and be specific about the days and times.  Then go back to court for a modification of the joint stipulation. Most courts frown upon violations that impact the children.  They might ask, "what took you so long?" In my experience, things are not going to get better, only worse. Once documented, go back to court. You might as well re-set things now rather than later.  ForeverDad has a pretty good suggestion to follow in the modification.

[AnuDay]

For clarification: everything we have done the past year has been voluntary. Tomorrow I will file my first petition for custody. 
I don't want to do it. I don't know why everything has to be so complicated with these people. I haven't seen my kids in over a week and the BPD mom isn't answering calls or responding. I have no other options.  She can't be civil and calls me the problem.

[DivDad]

It appears you will be filing contempt motions for violating the parenting schedule (with documentation).  As a suggestion, you might want add to the modification list that both of you can't move  out of your metro area... .or tri-county area without the other's permission.   I included this stipulation in my modification to ensure my kids weren't taken out of their surroundings.  Of course, each state is different, so check with your L.

[livednlearned]

For clarification: everything we have done the past year has been voluntary.

Even two people who are both of sound mental health would struggle to have a voluntary parenting schedule... .

It's rather remarkable that you two made it a whole year before something hit the wall.

Why is she texting you a draft of a letter? Does that count as you being served?

Your ex does not seem able to pick up the kids, which suggests she will struggle to get through this custody process without dysregulating in some way.

Are you on reasonable terms with your ex's mother, enough to talk to her about what's happening?

[AnuDay]

Even two people who are both of sound mental health would struggle to have a voluntary parenting schedule... .

It's rather remarkable that you two made it a whole year before something hit the wall.

Why is she texting you a draft of a letter? Does that count as you being served?

Your ex does not seem able to pick up the kids, which suggests she will struggle to get through this custody process without dysregulating in some way.

Are you on reasonable terms with your ex's mother, enough to talk to her about what's happening?

Good point, it's not quite what it seems.  Basically she needed me to babysit. By me keeping the children 4 days/week it enabled her to go to school.  It also enabled her to have privacy with her then boyfriend. 
Now that she's out of school and broke up with the boyfriend she doesn't need me to keep the children anymore.  As far as the text, no one can figure out why she texted a draft letter, perhaps it was to gain some control.  We are not on reasonable terms right now... .I'm always open to talking, but she has a wall up.

[livednlearned]

So the text of the draft letter sounds like a bluff. Is that how you are reading it?

Not that a bluff means she won't eventually do something.

Were you able to file the petition?

[AnuDay]

Yes, the petition has been filed.  My Emergency Order was denied.  No court date until next month.  I'll keep the post updated.  She said she sent me the "text"/draft letter because she was "tired of dealing with me". 

[livednlearned]

Maybe "tired of dealing with AnuDay" means "tired of dealing with herself"

It takes a tremendous amount of cognitive/executive function to initiate a custody battle, especially for someone (like her) who is riding the wave of up and down emotions, chronically.

My ex is a former trial attorney and could do a lot of legal stuff in his sleep, but even he struggled to do things consistently. He would not appear at hearings for motions he filed. 

[Turkish]

AnuDay,

To clarify, your co-parenting arrangement was ad-hoc between the two of you, no legal agreement?

It's good that you filed.  My ex didn't want to involve the courts but do a "gentlemen's" agreement with joint custody. I said no.  My ex is also a dual citizen (Mexico first. Then USA
And feared her possibly taking the kids.  She was initially a bit detached from the kids due to running to her beau and new life, but she refocused upon the kids after she left.  Never trust a pwBPD to be stable.  It's good that you are finally taking this to the courts.

[AnuDay]

wow,

good interpretation livednlearned.  I have forgotten how to communicate with her.  I've noticed that about myself.
My ex is probably very mentally tired. I can't believe your ex wouldn't show up for motions.  People keep telling me "why won't
she (my ex) take xxx situation seriously?"  I guess the answer is she probably can't because just to make it through everyday
life she has to function at maximum capacity. 

I feel sorry for her a lot. She's a prisoner of her own mind.  I even had a hard time filing, but she left me with no
choice, I offered mediation and she said she didn't want to go to a 3rd party mediator.


Yes, Turk, there was no legal agreement.  I just sent her checks and took the kids a few days/week.  It seemed like a
pretty fair deal.  She didn't like me keeping the kids for so many days, but since she couldn't afford babysitters
she allowed it. 

"never trust a pwBPD to be stable".  This is something I have continuously failed at.  They seem so normal at times;
lovable, caring, compassionate.  Then there's those other times.  I always refer back to my notes to remember those times.
There are countless occassions of cold and callous behavior. 

When my ex was stable she wondered about herself, like if she was bipolar.   

[Turkish]

My ex wondered about herself too. 

"I feel so empty."
"I feel like I can't control my emotions."
"I think i might have some kind of attachment disorder."

Put all of that in a separate compartment from what you need to do in order for what's best for the kids.

[AnuDay]

Update:
Got joint custody order/shared parenting plan.  I'm happy with the amount of time, days, and the stipulations attached to it regarding communication and my ex's behavior.  Hopefully this will cut down on 90% of the games that she plays and her manipulation tactics.  I'm a little bit leary, but we'll see how things work out.  I'm prepared for anything she might try to do next and that's what's important... .trying to stay one step ahead and never falling asleep at the wheel.  I've already started working on my next court filings (should I have to file).  The whole ordeal seemed very traumatizing for my ex so I'm not expecting her to do any of her antics anytime soon.  I let off the gas a little bit because I didn't want to subject my children to too much harm or traumatization with court stuff.  The plan seems to be very fair, but my ex still put up somewhat of a fight.  A little forewarning for people who read this, we had a female judge and there was a significant barrier that I had to overcome, luckily my ex isn't very high functioning so I didn't have too much of a problem with the barrier, but it was definitely there.  It didn't help the issue that I have daughters. 
As far as the exchange issue, exchanges will take place at the children's schools so we don't have to see each other... .just drop the children off or pick them up at school.  During the summer when school is out, I'm not sure how we will minimize contact.   

[takingandsending]

Sounds promising, AnuDay. Do you have the kids now, or when is your next scheduled parent time? Let us know how it goes. Hope no more events like the last one that precipitated the letter.

[ForeverDad]

Typical risks to a new order:

• The ex will reinterpret the order to suit self in novel ways and twisted logic, yet court may allow it if not called out for what it is.
• The ex will search out loopholes in the purposely vague terms of the order (allowing reasonably normal parents to be flexible with co-parenting) in order to create new obstructions.  Examples:
   - "reasonable" telephone contact
   - "mutually agreed" exchange locations
• Our inborn sense of fairness used against us, such as Guilting.

The positive aspect is that you now have an order that overall is an improvement.  Just be forewarned that surprises will come, don't let them catch you off guard or flummoxed "in the moment".  In such times find a way to give yourself time to ponder and evaluate a proper response.

[Turkish]

What happened with your daughter and the daughter of your wife's friend with the inappropriate touching, was this resolved?