If she had said this to me during our 'relationship' or when I asked her to be my gf or, after meeting with her therapist who then sent her to go clarify with me after she'd agreed to be my girlfriend the day before "look we need to discuss how we see things before we commit" then there might be some merit to examing that statement, and only if I'd ignored her and said 'nah what does that matter'.

I am really looking for DETACH techniques here, not to once again see what I did wrong; didn't appreciate her, saw things differently, reacted to inane 'it needs to be official-official' conversation. I'm reaching out looking for tools/insight into how to detach myself from a toxic BPD woman I allowed myself to attach to despite the warning signs, despite the revealed behaviors, why I continued to march on through that last insane week for a woman I never gave a thought to spending any of my future with and a relationship I clearly saw wouldn't last. I'm trying to find tools to stop processing a mystery which has no answers, to stop trying to fit who she was and what this turned out to be into what I had thought it and she was. I'm trying to stop kicking myself for sending a letter to a woman who didn't deserve it. I'm trying to stop wondering 'what if I'd just let her come to me' since the 'her' i still the same messed up woman. I'm trying to stop HOPE she will text and stop looking at my phone hoping she will. I hardly LIKED her. I'm trying to stop playing conversations in my head about what i'd say ot regain my dignity here. I'm trying to stop reverting back to when I felt invisible and inadequate after having lost everything and closing myself off from the world simply because a woman who acted like I was amazing didn't really feel that way it is just part of her disorder and regain that feeling I always had on my own independent of her and NOT take her COMPLETE and UTTER rejection of me once she had the fuel she needed from winning as an utter rejection of ME. I'm trying to do so in order to be able to move forward and start being open to other women in my life who are, as all the women I dated i my life prior are, healthy, loving, strong, able to love and be loved, honest and faithful and don't need anyone to explain to then you don't f*** one guy when you've asked another one to share your apartment, bed and life. None of these things will be answered or addressed IMHO by tearing apart a conversation that never should have happened that i should have disengaged from, or by trying to understand what a woman trying to not own the dishonesty and devastation said  in order to do so.

Dear 1stT-
Okay.  Take a breath.  We all have shoulda coulda woulda’s.  It’s okay.  You did the BEST you could.  I understand, you were coming out of, no you were still IN a very lonely and vulnerable place when you met her.  She filled a space in you.  But you said in a way earlier post that you did not love her.  That doesn’t mean she didn’t hurt you by her action; and that is understandable.  You felt manipulated and humiliated.

When I say we can talk ourselves INTO things, I think the best way to explain is by my own example.  The behaviors I accepted, both from my husband of 19 years toward the end of our marriage; but more recently by my now exuBPDbf leave me stunned.  I forgave unforgivable behavior.  Over and over and over.  I am hoping to realize that I did NOT stay for love, but rather out of loneliness.  That is closer to the truth.

I moved to this god forsaken state when I fled California to escape my husband.  Biggest mistake of my life, but I won’t go into the sordid details.  I left my life at the age of 53 and came to a place where I had not a friend in the world.  I had purchased a home sight unseen.  Nine months after my divorce was final (2.5 years after separation) I met BPD boyfriend.  I thought GOD had sent me a gift in the form of this beautiful man.  The complete opposite of my ex-husband.

I did fall in love... .there was a TON of love bombing.  And a ton of lies... .stupid lies, childish, ridiculous lies.  And then the RAGE began... .I allowed him to beg beg beg for forgiveness after that first unbelievable rage.  I listened to and read all of his excuses for maybe a week and then I reluctantly forgave him.  And then he held it together for several months.  And then he got me to trust him again.  I talked myself INTO loving him.  But then he did it again.  And he did it again.  And again.  And I think I stopped loving him.  But I was so lonely here, that I accepted way LESS than I deserved.  And by that time, after being physically assaulted by my husband and now verbally abused by this man, I was SURE I deserved this treatment.  I was certain I was nothing.  But all along, I KNEW we didn’t share the same values.  I didn’t lie, I didn’t steal, I didn’t demean people with hateful words, I didn’t alienate everyone I knew.  We had NOTHING in common... .except sex.  When I disrobed I was his perfect Goddess.

After 3.5 years of this, I looked up the phrase “unprovoked rage in men” and stumbled upon this site and BPD.  I read and read.  I learned the best I could and tried the communication tools.  For almost a year.  I validated and he mirrored ME and began to validate ME!  Things seemed to get a bit better (sometimes).  It was a great help.  His mom became ill and he became one of her primary caretakers (a pretty messed up situation) and he raged, but not AT me, and I walked him through it.  She healed and he calmed down.  And then my best friend died suddenly and unexpectedly.  And he would NOT let me grieve... .he RAGED.  That was my last straw.  To me he desecrated the memory of my beloved friend.  No... .we do NOT share the same values. 

It is HARD talking myself OUT of what I had talked myself INTO loving.  But I HAVE to.  And it is lonely... .but it was very lonely and painful being the only functioning member of the relationship.

That, my friend, is the beginning of my detachment.  Recognizing how I entered this, and realizing the benefits of exiting.

Warmly,
Gemsforeyes

Gem. Thank you so much for sharing that, I am sure it was hard to recount. I am sorry you went through all of that and from every interaction I've had with you here you seem like a woman who deserves the exact opposite of you got. I hope some lucky man comes into your life and gets that fast. Truly.

I get the staying out of fear or being lonely. I'd managed to put that all the good stuff I had in a box for years and get some amazing things done and just let it sit and be... lonely. Which I was fine with because I knew it was all in a box waiting. She and I almost had a God-Devil battle at getting that box open. And she won. But I realize I won. Because what does she get? Ha ha! ? She took nothing. She released it. And it is all there out of the box for me to share with anyone I want. That is waht I said to her when I walked out 'thank you for opening my heart I am going to go share it' and I need to return to those words. She can keep the cards or not, she can be happy, indifferent, sad or vindictive over what happened it matter not. Part of my detach is to move where I was when I hit this board, taking what was good and sharing it with women and people who deserve it. My letters did not just go to her they went out into the world.

Talking yourself out of something you talked yourself into is an interesting challenge. I guess the question is if you talk yourself out of it what is there and what does that mean? If it never EXISTED what does that mean? If she and he were never the amazing people we talked ourselves into then who was? And I guess the answer is... .us.

I really like this

I know I was strong and astute enough to resist a massive love bomb when she started which gives me great hope and pride. Utterly resisted. But I see where I fell short was when I started to feel the simplest of things; not love-bombed but simply... .known and appreciated. And connected. The most basic things in the world. Exiting for me is realizing, as hard as it is, she did not 'know' or 'appreciate' me and was not particularly connected to me. But I can exit knowing I want and crave those things and in fact am good at recieving and giving them.  Exiting for me is also not caring what she things of me, what she thinks of the letter, what she thinks at all, or even what happens to her good or bad. I received gifts from her regardless of whether she meant to give them and I think I gave her gifts regardelss of whether she can take them in. I'll leave it at that.

As always thank you for your wisdom and sharing.

Recognizing how I entered this, and realizing the benefits of exiting.

The wounds of the last 10-15 years put me in a vulnerable state to accept a relationship of any sort with a woman every instinct in me told me to not date when she pursued me. Note when she told me about her sex toy on our first 'date' and would I like to use it on her, I had not had sex for years. Next day she tells me she is so into me, so handsome, looking for a committed relationship and I turned her/it down. Andher subsequent 'buy me a drink?' texts. Because I picked up on social cues (in addition to being a gentleman). I picked up on all her cues and kept her at arms length. The damage from the 10-15 years is what allowed me to finally ignore those cues and march to the slaughterhouse in the hopes of having a person in my life. I didn't miss a thing from her I ignored it. It is why on the way out I said to her "I knew exactly what you were about when I met you it is why I never dated you". That was the truth.  My only real regret is not leaving on that note.

So my takeaway is to be OPEN to dating and to LISTEN to my clearly reliable instincts so as not to ever be in a situation where I need human contact so much I do as Gem and Cat said to not do; forgive unforgiveable behavior as she was chock full of it.

Detach in full progress

I am sorry if that is how my replies to you come across I do not mean to invalidate your or make them about you being wrong. I am trying to respond in a way that clarifies my own understanding of the situation, even when it is at odds with yours or your advice. I'm not trying to make that personal or confrontational, just trying to understand the situation (with  your help which is appreciated)



Well specifically to her I meant this; because I was scared of getting into a relationship (not mentioning of course most specifically with HER) I did not show appreciation for her gestures to me and took them or at least appeared to take them for granted.  There is far more to this situation as I've elaborated (e.g. birthday night her asking me if I'd stay in NYC instead of moving and 'buy us an apartment).  Overall, taking any specific fear of HER I had out of the equation, I meant I should have not let the fear I had get in the way of interacting with her more fully, honestly and openly.

I think fear it self is a very valid emotion that should be paid attention to. I think my fear of her was valid. However if I was going to accept birthday/support/etc then I should have put aside my fear as well and accepted it and appreciated it fully. Or be scared of it and not.

I do believe I've learned to try to not react with fear/anger immediatly, but I don't believe that reacting with fear as it regards her coming back in my life is a part of that lesson. I think being objective about whether fear of her 'return' is valid or not. Not meaning fear of rejection but fear of acceptance.


Well let me start here. Explanation B is not in regards to Grand Gesture. It is in regards to a letter I never posted here where I slammed her after returning her key mostly in fury at finding out who she was and how I'd been pretty much duped and my horror at almost giving my heart to that woman. For instance I said "What kind of woman shows a man she just slept with drawers in her bedroom she cleared out for him to move his stuff in with one hand and another where she is putting the sex toys he bought for them to discover each other with while she says "and I promise not to use this with anyone else" with the other?"

I called her on all the stuff she revealed e.g. "I'd date him or even marry him but I know I'd cheat on him too". You can think that of course but not after presenting yourself as Miss Monogamy and asking me to share your bed and hold you in my arms each night.

It was after this letter she invited me to meet her at her bar, told me the whole 'if a man doesn't ask' and I asked. So my Explanation 2 was perhaps she read that and said "Man I'm going to show him".

Back to Explanation 1 re Grand Gesture:
I think you are Spot On. I don't think she hated the letter. I don't think she is laughing about it, I don' think it went in the trash or became a paper weight. I don't even buy her distanced "thank you for the thoughtful note". I think it meant a LOT to her. I think it is a whole lot to deal with. Especially if, as you saw in our text exchange she did not trust my feelings for her:

Are you looking forward to it ... ?
Hence talking about it for reassurance
I need verbal confirmation hence Friday for it to be certain for me
You went from not wanting to communicate to wanting to be with me <<referring to the letter
If you decide to officially ask me then it will be more real to me
Im obviously still processing you asking me to be your one and only.
Hence asking again Friday would mean a lot to me.

And on Our Day:
I didn't think you even liked me sitting in your lap
How come I always initiate the kiss?

A whole lot of not trusting how I felt.  Which is where the Grand Gesture came from, again she disappeared after inviting me out and I'd think that "but he's the guy who doesn't even like me" had to be part of her thought process.

So while she is thinking I dumped a ton for her to process. I understand that Skip. Truly. I get where she'd reach out at first and then mom/sis/therapist/her would, if her feelings for me before were actually true, need to resolve a lot. Likely she'd already largely moved on. The texts back to me showed she still had feelings and then this... .

But you are implying my going to Detach is because she didn't reach out or might not or might have 'bad news' if she does.

I'm trying to say the entire way she acted during the relationship, during that last week, discarding me for three months, not giving me a think to work with when I contact her, and having me sit on my hands for three weeks after gallantly saying yes to being available to her on a moments notice just doesn't bode well for a successful relationship even if 'best comes to best' and it turns out she has been pining, hoping, waiting, and is now processing/deciding and decides to reach out and take that walk in the park.

I've done a lot of work to put aside some truly hurtful behavior and ignore the questions, anger, pain, fear, abandonment, etc. in order to look at my behavior and try to make some amends, acknowledgement. In regards to me she has done nothing. Does that say anything good to you? If she reaches out to reconnect does that say she is a woman I want to have as my woman? One I can trust? One who will be by my side? One who will look at her own behavior? One who won't lie? I want a woman who feels about fidelity like I do, from her heart, not a piece of paper or word that forces her to reluctantly stop sexting.

I withheld affection/appreciation, I also told her in no uncertain terms I would and why. It hurt her. I got it and tried to acknowledge it. Where is the simplest reply "I miss you too" or EVEN "Thank you for the beautiful letter, it really mattered to me". It wasn't an unrequited love letter from a co-worker. It was a huge acknowledgement from a man that according to her even the day before she left she wanted to spend what appeared to be her life with.

Regardless of motivtion, I believe she will without a doubt reach out. Maybe not next week or next month but she will. And as I've said I need to be clear about what I want then and how to be able to protect myself from further harm which may even include deciding on total NC. That isn't living in fear though Skip, it is living in reality.

Overall though I'd ask the question like this and I believe both Gem and Cat would go with Explanation 2

Explanation 1
The Grand Gesture was highly loaded, girl is processing, she was hurt the first time by my lack of reciprocation to her love bomb etc.

Explanation 2
The girl could care little about the gesture, she is dishonest, unfaithful, manipulative, self-serving, and if not a textbook/toxic BPD/NPD a woman who is not to be trusted and avoiding her would be akin to dodging a bullet.

Given everything about our history Explanation 2 seems far far far more likely.

I'd point you to anwers like this in Quora from an NPD

https://www.quora.com/Do-narcissist-always-return-to-former-victims

especially the second answer from HG Tudor (whom you may or may not be aware of) where he describes almost to a tee her behavior since discard and in response to me:

"We do not do enough to recommence the formal relationship but we certainly extract some fuel from you. It might be a text, it may be a telephone call or personal visit, but it is passing. It may only take a moment or an afternoon, but it is temporary and then having extracted the fuel we will withdraw again (only to appear at some later stage). The formal relationship does not begin again.

It is this third manoeuvre (which is a benign follow-up charm) which often confuses people. You can understand charming to start the relationship again. You can understand lashing out at us and being nasty because hey, after all we are Grade A Asss aren’t we? However, why make the effort to gain some fuel and then withdraw again? It may be because we have a reliable primary source in place but cannot resist a slurp of the charm fuel. "

And the type of "nons" that drive that behavior:

2.The Optimist

This contact gives you hope that there might be a return to the golden period. You do not push it, since you know how this can cause us to react, but you are receptive to our advance, pleased, no delighted to hear from us and you engage with enthusiasm, trying to keep your pulsating heart under control. You see each time we “drop by” as the possibility that this time we sweep you in our arms and take you back once more. Each time you are disappointed but this does not dim your hope and optimism, perhaps next time will be the time?

3.The Guilty

You feel bad that the relationship did not work out and you blame yourself as much (if not more) than us for its demise. Your status as a love devotee means that you still believe that love will conquer all and you spend your time apologising for what you did that was wrong and that which you did not do right. Of course we do nothing to cause you to think any different, enjoying your self-flagellation which always rises to the surface whenever we get in touch.

So in answer to whether I in fact learned the lesson I said I had to her "being a man means putting aside your fear" this does not mean I learned to ignore danger.

The girl didn't leave because we saw things differerntly. She left because she got her payoff. She didn't leave in pain and cry in her pillow, she left to go f the man whose pillows she'd been in all the time. She hasn't been processing she's on to her next sources who were likely there all along. She doesn't reply to me and retreat because she is scared she does so because she gets a kick out of it. She didn't ask me to meet her and then back off in fear she did it for the same reason she asked me to commit and then ran; it was fun. She doesn't call my cards notes because she is protecting herself but because in her twisted mind they mean absolutely nothing to her. She didn't ask me to be available at the drop of a hat when she found an hour to protect herself she did it because it gave her absolute power when I said yes and then sat around waiting for 'the call' for 3 weeks.

Now you might call that painting her black to protect myself from being vulnerable, I call that calling a BPD/NPD spade a spade to protect myself from harm.

The more I think about why this triggered me SO much is it is in it's own way a replay of when I lost 'love of my life' which kicked off the whole 10-15 year horrible years. I was planning my proposal to her and out of the blue she went ballistic on me (we'd never had a fight the whole time we were together, super sweet the whole time) out of fear of what was happening to my career. That was pretty much the end of us except for one beautiful reconciliaition (involving a Grand Gesture that blew her away but was not enough) and I never saw her again. It was not BPD but I went from planning on flying the first and only woman I'd ever truly loved to NY to meet my parents and to propose to her under the white stone bridge in a gondola in Central Park to having her ripped from my life almost the next day. One week I had a waitress coming up and telling us with a smile that the girl and I would need to let go of each others hands if we wanted to eat our food, the next I was left holding nothing.

I've thought about this a lot recently as I try to figure out why this meaningless 4 month 'relationship' with a girl I hardly liked spun me so out of control and I think in addition to being the first connection I had in awhile, it really just stirred that situation up which was devasatating and, as mentioned, kicked off the entire slide down; I left the city and girl I loved, returned home w/o career/biz, only to find my father starting to slide into dementia and that started the next 10-15 years of loss. The 15 years that were supposed to be creating a life with the woman I loved were instead wasted and lost forever. So you can see why what should have been something to laugh off over a beer with friends became such a major life event.

1st T,
I suspect that you're in the "angry review" stage. I think anger is an appropriate response to betrayals and it is one step of the process on the way to letting go.

And yes, I think you suffered a betrayal. You opened yourself to her when you slept over and then she betrayed you with another guy and that goofy talk about only using the sex toy with you.

I think you're probably angry with yourself for letting your guard down for an unreliable woman after being out of the relationship market for so long.

Forgive yourself. Just about everyone here has done the same thing, other than those folks who have a BPD parent or child.

You did the best you could. Time to move on.

 
Cat