Wife’s therapist cutting my legs out from under me.

[Woodchuck]

So in my first post I briefly touched on my wife’s counselor, seems she’s chose one that basically just goes along with her and she can manipulate. In my opinion all my wife’s counselor does is validate her, to my understanding they have no real plan. She’s seen this therapist for years, yet I wonder if her therapist even knows her diagnosis, it almost seems her counselor approaches her as if she’s an emotionally healthy adult with just depression/anxiety. My wife’s had the opportunity to go through therapy and seek help from the psychiatrist that diagnosed her. He told her that they’d work on learning realistic relationship expectations also. She never followed through and is now considering a different psychologist but hasn’t set one up yet. In the meantime though she keeps seeing this other therapist, probably non qualified to deal with BPD. So I guess my wife hasn’t been as good with impulsive spending as I thought, we’ve agreed on a budget that includes personal spending money. However my wife has been using a credit card additionally. Of course I’ve confronted her about this behavior as we or I should say I recently worked hard(20hrs of OT a week) a few years ago to eliminate our credit card debts. We set out a plan not to ever use cards for debt, only in cases as needed when a debit card isn’t accepted or convinient but not to use as borrowing but only to be used to immediately pay with our cash accounts. So of course I confront her on this issue and her and her counselors response is I’m controlling. So basically what I’m being made to feel is I’m no longer allowed to say anything about behavior that is detrimental or bad for our entire family.

This is becoming an issue in other areas too. For example I’ve been pushed off by my wife repeatedly when trying to make advances. She however complains that she always has to be the instigator when we are intimate, and I need to make her feel more wanted. But it feels like a trap because everytime I do straight up rejection follows. I’m not trying super late or at unrealistic times either.  So after not being successful pretty much ever with my advances which she requests, I bring up that it’s a little frustrating that I’m suppose to initiate advances but they never work. So she goes to her therapist and her and her therapist conclude that I’m sexually controlling. I’m left standing here like What the heck seriously she controls everything sex in our relationship. It’s just issue after issue, it’s becoming to the point I’m not allowed to be concerned or express concern over anything because it’s being thrown in my face as I’m being controlling. Seriously as a caretaker I probably say that my issue is the exact opposite of being controlling, I’d say I’m too accommodating and flexible. So when I have an issue or take a stand it’s usually for a good reason, or to figure out WTH is going on. Idk what I should do at this point I really feel her current therapist who is doing nothing to work on her underlying issues is becoming detrimental to our relationship and technically her client too.  As you guys would say I feel her therapist is just a source of “validating the invalid”.

Funny thing is I saw this therapist years ago with her, and the therapist was really suprised at what I had to say. Basically she asked my wife if what I was saying was correct considering I wasn’t lying and my wife was stuck in the middle of either lying or admitting what was happening I guess she was under pressure to say. She didn’t end up lying but it was a real wake up call for the therapist to hear my side of things, and these things not be denied by her client. I just wonder how this counselor years later can be so ignorant to the reality that was once made apparent to her.  I offered to go again so both sides can come out but apparently my wife doesn’t think it’s such a good idea. Of course not. However if I get the chance to go again idk what to say, I could just talk about what’s going on, but part of me feels like calling this therapist out. Like asking the therapist in the many years of seeing my wife has she become familiar with her diagnosis, if she knows how to counsel BPD patients, and what plans of action are set in place to actually help her client. Of course at that point I realize the therapist would like me a lot less, but I can’t keep having my legs cut out from under me by an inept therapist.

Ltahoe -
Your situation sounds very similar to mine aside from the fact that your wife is actually going to therapy.  For years we would bounce from one therapist to another.  We would go individually as well as together.  We would end up leaving each counselor for the same reason, my wife had an issue with something the therapist would say or suggest.  I am very tired of going over our past over and over again with nothing getting better and no therapy making any difference. 
The issues you are having with voicing concerns and sex are very familiar as well.  My wife will never tell me what she does want.  The way she communicates is by pushing me away if she doesn't want something.  There is almost no 'positive' communication when it comes to sex.  I have stopped asking for anything because the answer is almost always 'no'.  If I try to voice a concern about anything, it is either dismissed or turned around as me not being supportive.  I feel the same as you... .I feel like I am quite flexible and accommodating but she cannot see that at all. 
I do hope that you are able to make some headway with her therapist.  Living in the vicious cycle is very exhausting and depressing.  Keep your head up!

Woodchuck

[Cat Familiar]

Hey Ltahoe,
How are things going today? Let us know how you’re doing.

Cat

[DivDad]

I married and divorced a BPD with children.  ‘Been through a slew of T’s for my children and myself… plus a court appointed parent coordinator (where I first heard the words BPD).
I have a number of observations and suggestions.  (1) First, you are not alone. Believe me. What you have described could have been written by scores of commentators on this site. (2) “Formflier” is totally correct is saying that you can’t believe what the BPD is filtering to you from the T.  Don’t internalize or respond to what you are hearing from the BPD since you have heard nothing directly from the T.  Discount it. The T might not be saying you are controlling or is unaware of what is going on.  The BPD might be projecting.  Again, you have to discount everything the BPD is filtering to you. In short, you can’t take what the BPD says as face value. Ever. (3) And to be a bit fair to the T, BPD are great actors and very persuasive. The T is probably only hearing one side and thinking that the BPD is genuinely representing your side. (4)  I would not consider asking the T for BPD records.  It’s a bit unethical. It can only happen if the BPD agrees to it in writing.  Which probably won’t happen. Too, it really doesn’t serve any purpose and if the BPD discovers it, it will backfire on you big time.  (5) From what I understand, the BPD was told by a physiatrist that she has BPD.  That, in itself, is a revelation for you and a big step, although the BPD has ignored it or is not accepting it.  (6) Maybe your first step is trying to get some face time with the BPD  T.  (Although the T might be the wrong person for the long haul.)  There might be a “window” to see the T regarding the over spending since that is something you have discussed with the BPD and it’s easy to isolate and talk about without all the other things in play. Maybe suggest a duel session where you both see the T (You both see the T together, then the BPD sees the T alone and then you see the T alone.  (i.e. to avoid conflict and to present both sides of the financial issue, etc.)  It might take blocking out two sessions back to back.)  Your goal is to have the BPD agree to this.  (7) This way, you will have an opportunity to talk to the T alone to find out if the T is aware of the BPD disorder.  Also, ask the T if she thinks you are controlling, etc... .and talk about the spending issue.  Go into the one-on-one session with three agendas and nothing more. Keep it focused.  This is a reasonable request/compromise for the BPD and keeps the BPD in the T loop.  Not to mention that you are paying for the T.  (8) You might want to investigate getting your own T who is BPD qualified.  You need to get your own clarity on your life (sans your BPD T) in order to protect yourself and your children in the future. (9) Lastly, many BPD are known to spend beyond their means.  This is common.  It’s a separate issue for discussion, but be aware that you are not alone in this matter either.

[Cat Familiar]

The T might not be saying you are controlling or is unaware of what is going on.  The BPD might be projecting.  Again, you have to discount everything the BPD is filtering to you. In short, you can’t take what the BPD says as face value. Ever. (3) And to be a bit fair to the T, BPD are great actors and very persuasive. The T is probably only hearing one side and thinking that the BPD is genuinely representing your side.

DivDad makes some great points!  

A brief anecdote from my long-ago grad school journey, thinking I might pursue a degree in counseling. As an intern, I saw a woman who told me her husband was completely paranoid and acting really weird. He'd searched through her dresser drawers and she thought he was following her. Fortunately I just listened and didn't comment on his behavior, but asked her how she felt about it.

The following day I received a phone call from this husband, asking to meet with me. I was a bit wary of seeing him, so I suggested we speak over the phone if he had time. Turns out that he came home from work early one afternoon because the electricity went out and when he got home, he caught his wife in bed with some guy (a detail she had completely omitted from her account to me).

Of course he was mistrustful! This, and other incidents, made me realize that I was far too ignorant, immature, and trusting to be a therapist. I would bet that any skilled therapist would be cautious of accepting at face value whatever their client said.

[Ltahoe]

Yes Divdad I agree a lot with what you have to say as I’ve had time to process more, I do agree that the wife is probably misrepresenting me to the therapist. I’m not going to even pry on that issue anymore, clearly my wife, the T or some combination of both isn’t interested in me going. If I ever get invited maybe I’ll go but things could get interesting if I really speak my mind during that session. I have all the info I need from my wife, I saw a therapist yesterday so I have my own T now. My wife actually went to a psychiatrist today and they upped her medication but for some reason the psychiatrist didn’t give her much time, so now she feels like psychiatrists aren’t worth the time.

So since I mentioned my T and she was talking, I asked her bluntly I’m not trying to pry and keep your personal information personal I don’t care, but I’m just curious if your T has ever discussed Borderline with you? She responded that her T was actually disappointed in that diagnosis and doesn’t believe that’s what she has. So I asked wife outright what do you think? She says I don’t think I’m borderline either. Idk at this point I’m actually tempted to figure out a way to get my wife into the practice I do T at. There’s several therapists there that work with BPD and DBT is offered.

Cat overall I’m doing fine but things are a little interesting right now so we’ll see how things proceed. She’s not dysregulating or anything right now just some big changes going on so we’ll see how she handles it. My guess is she’s looking to me to be her rescuer at least for a short while. Sorry I haven’t been on to update for a few days. I’ll maybe have greater details later today or tmr when I have more time.  I’ve been busier at work and putting my focus into a few books.  

[formflier]

Hey Ltahoe

I think you are missing a big "point" that people are making.

you wife is almost certainly misrepresenting what T said to you

most likely also she is misrepresenting you to the T as well.

I have a hard time imagining the T would really say these things.  I don't have a hard time imagining a pwBPD would twist what was actually said.

So... going forward... .I would consider ONLY discussing what the T says directly to you.  I would step away from ANY and ALL conversations where someone wants to tell you what someone else said.

They can say it directly to you... .or you will be blissfully ignorant.

Thoughts?

FF

[Ltahoe]

I understand that FF. My wife is going into the therapist looking to be the victim, and misrepresenting the whole situation. The therapist is taking her word for it and I’m totally unrepresented. I really have no idea what therapist says or doesn’t say. The whole thing could be fabricated by my wife. Maybe wife goes in and says my H is controlling and T just listens and my wife takes that as agreement. Maybe my wife went in after the psychiatrist appointment and said nothing of the BPD, just said they found her a medication. Really you’re right IDK I’m not there.

Based on what I actually know, therapist isn’t specialized in BPD. This is made clear by searching areas of her work and no DBT is offered.

Therapist likes dealing with victims of abuse. So now if I add my opinion here that perhaps my wife is wanting to be a victim and the therapist a rescuer naturally well I’m sure it seems to works out perfectly and nothing ever gets helped.

The times I saw her her T almost seemed to be mad at me for the self hurt threats as if I was the issue. That’s of course when I started speaking up, and the therapist was surprised. I know that there was a lot of silence by my wife in that session and the therapist asking my wife if what I was saying was true, she had that look on her face like she knew she couldn’t deny it but didn’t want to admit it either, she was ultimately stuck. Idk what was discussed in the following sessions.

I know what ever her and therapist are doing doesn’t seem to be helping her behavior at home. Again maybe because my wife misrepresents stuff.

The way I see it is I have two general decisions. Somehow get ahold of this therapist which seems seemingly difficult as the T works for a practice and all calls are filtered through a receptionist.  Not only that this T practices out of several metro locations, so I have no clue where T will be on any given day. My wife has also closed off making it easy for me. Which yes probably knows that she’ll be exposed. I suppose I don’t mean to say that I’d go in and say T you suck you’re and idiot etc. Of course I’d listen and put my concerns out there and if T is truly denying that her client could be BPD and saying I’m controlling then yes I would have something to say about that. If not and she’s open to the ideas then it would be my wife most likely uncomfortable not the T. But ever getting a chance with this T is a big “if” that I don’t count on. I feel I’d have to force too much to make it happen. It comes down to how hard do I force this. So let’s say that I do force it I’d say it’s a 50/50 gamble perhaps the therapists eyes are opened and it helps. Or perhaps it backfires big time I get no time and is used as more fuel as I’m controlling. Only validating the she’s the victim role and her therapist is the rescuer I feel it’s a risky maneuver especially since I don’t have a direct contact method to T.

Second solution would be just to start from scratch. Idk if my wife’s interest in a psychiatrist is all for show. Maybe her interest in couples sessions are all for show. Part of me does think she’s sincere though, she attempted to see a psychiatrist yesterday, she says she only got 10 minutes with him. Maybe she ended early and he didn’t. I do believe the 10 minute thing cause she was txting me while waiting, then started texting me fairly soon after she went in. I was thinking geez did you guys even have a session.

My therapist which says she knows a lot about BPD has pretty much said she’ll counsel me but until my wife does or starts DBT it would be hard for her to benefit from counseling. My therapist says she hasn’t seen my wife of course and can’t determine if she’s BPD until she sees her, but based on descriptions of her behavior indicates that DBT would be beneficial to her. 

In the end My wife is usually a higher functioning BPD. Considering this most people out of the home would never realize her issues, although she’s had a few times in public that she’s acted out. So yes I’m sure she can play over on her T as she’s never probably dysregulated in front of her T.

[formflier]

My wife is going into the therapist looking to be the victim, and misrepresenting the whole situation. The therapist is taking her word for it and I’m totally unrepresented. I really have no idea what therapist says or doesn’t say.

Ltahoe,

One of the "skills" which takes a lot of discipline to accomplish (and I struggle with... frankly) is to focus brainpower on "what you know" and/or "what you can influence".

Do you actually know what your wife says to the T when you are not there?

As you've stated... .you know you don't know what the T actually says to your wife.

Yet, without knowing these things... .and knowing that they are "unknowable"... .this issue has taken up "a lot of real estate" in your brain... .and consumed a lot of energy and focus.

Please stick with me on the "energy and focus" piece.  Can we agree your energy and focus is a limited resource?  I certainly hope so... especially given the crazy that comes with a r/s with a pwBPD.

Therefore... .I would hope you could spend some time reflecting on the wisdom of spending a lot of energy (or any... for that matter) on something you know you will never know and likely have little influence on.

Especially when you could choose to redirect the energy and focus somewhere else... where it is likely you can know things... .and have influence.

Perhaps get a cup of coffee (or two)... .and read this a few times.

What is FF really suggesting here?

FF

[Ltahoe]

Yes pretty much why I’ve given up on the option of seeing wife’s T and not going to focus on it. I stated it as one of two decisions but I’ve ultimately decided to disregard that for now for the reasons stated. I think I gave up that approach last week sometime.

I already know I’m not going to change the situation. I suppose I was just curious to hear my wife’s response about her having BPD in the end that’s why I asked her. I probably did waste energy on this, last couple days I haven’t really given it much thought. That is until therapy got brought up since we both had sessions, it was a means for me at least to figure out whether she accepts diagnosis and what she’s doing about it. It’s partly why I chose therapy to help me better focus and handle the BPD. I do have to admit my wife has found my weaknesses and can get under my skin, and things have been worse lately. She’s seeing her T later and I probably won’t even bring up anything about it.

I had been offline from bpdfamily for a few days. Didn’t really realize people were still commenting this. Just meant it as an update to my situation and read the advice and similar stories. Never meant to say I’m still Persuing her T. Between work, working out, reading and the kids I’ve been focusing on those things more lately.

I do understand the advice from you not to focus on the things I can’t change and to enjoy myself.

[formflier]

"Thought discipline" is critical.  Spending time being thoughtful, making a plan (that you believe is healthy... vice reactive) and then doing that plan and evaluating the outcome is the best "anti-dote" that I know of for the crazy (flying monkey's, therapists declaring you controlling, therapists declaring you a cross between a flying monkey and a unicorn).

The purpose of my previous post was due to concern about the factual way you presented what was going on in your wife's therapy.  Sure... .some could argue it's nuance and word play, and it some cases it is.

I believe in your case you grab an idea and give it way more "space" than it deserves in your thinking. 

The difference in "I believe this is happening in therapy" and "This is happening in therapy" is monumental.  Life will look completely different to you after several months of "thought discipline".  FF guarantees it!

Listen man... .I try to guide people in process and yes even sometimes tell them exactly what to do.  My intention is not the actions, but greater understanding of the underlying principle behind those actions.

That being said... .I think there are wiser choices you could make regarding the T.  (not at all saying your plan is wrong or unwise... think good, better, best).  I don't think you are choosing best.  I think you and your marriage deserve the best

The principle involved is direct, clear, succinct communications to solve chronic problems.

With that in mind... .what plan would you think FF would advise you to accomplish?

FF

[Ltahoe]

I know sometimes I write well, other times not so well. So sometimes I have a hard time grammatically writing out what I’m trying to say. Plus always typing from a phone makes the problem worse. Especially if I’m in the middle of thought then get distracted by coworkers or family. Lol. 

Anyhow I’m not so great at dealing with pwBPD I’ve never really tried anything but logic. I’ve read some books on BPD and probably have incorporated slight bits in there with the logic I try to use. My issue also comes from trying to problem solve the issue. But I don’t think like a pwBPD. At this point I’d say the best route for me to take is to see a T to work on myself and how not to get caught up or engaged. Forget about wife’s current T, see if we can get into a couples T eventually so we can communicate. Figure out something else to do or put energy into when W is dysregulating.

[formflier]

Anyhow I’m not so great at dealing with pwBPD I’ve never really tried anything but logic. 

In this situation... .oddly enough... .I would say that even more logic is appropriate.


Applied to "what I know" versus "what I suspect".

Listen... I'm on your side and I'm an ESTJ... .a very logical rational guy. 

I'll cut to the chase and say that I think you should reach out to your wife's T and ask for a meeting.  I would think it appropriate to invite your wife to attend as well.  The three of you in the same room can/should discuss "communications procedures" going forward.  Do NOT debate the past... .especially fine details of who said what when.

We can certainly help you prepare for this meeting.

Something along these lines.

"My wife has passed along some apparent concerns, potentially even judgments, you have made regarding my role in our relationship.  My desire is to improve my relationship skills to be the best husband I can be.  I'm working with this T (provide contact information) and I would appreciate going forward if concerns and suggestions about my role are directed to this therapist.  "

"I would also like to discuss the appropriateness of my wife and I having conversations about details of your therapeutic relationship." 

"What would be most helpful for your therapeutic goals with my wife for me to say when my wife wants to discuss details with me."

Do you see where this is kinda going.  No details... only procedure.  My hope is that this will strengthen your boundary that you do not talk to your wife about her therapy... .at all.  Also that a professional communication can be established between your two Ts.

Thoughts?

FF

[Cat Familiar]

Anyhow I’m not so great at dealing with pwBPD I’ve never really tried anything but logic. I’ve read some books on BPD and probably have incorporated slight bits in there with the logic I try to use. My issue also comes from trying to problem solve the issue. But I don’t think like a pwBPD. At this point I’d say the best route for me to take is to see a T to work on myself and how not to get caught up or engaged.

You’re doing a great job describing what’s going on in your relationship, Ltahoe. Posting from a phone! I have a hard time when I use my iPad instead of the computer. I’d be totally useless with my phone.

I’m a very logical person and yes, we want to use the tools that we are skilled at using. Problem is, pwBPD are so driven by emotion that using logic with them, especially when they’re dysregulating, is like trying to explain calculus to a toddler. Sometimes they'll understand but most times they’ll hear “Blah, blah, blah,” and somehow they think you’re blaming them, calling them stupid, criticizing them or somehow disappointed in them, and then react accordingly.

You’re far ahead of me when I first got here a couple of years ago. I was so angry and frustrated. I didn’t have the capacity to start learning and using the tools; I was feeling so incredibly duped and betrayed for having married one guy and then getting some weird stranger in his place.

You sound balanced, but challenged, as anyone would be who is living with a pwBPD and who has no idea why they behave so peculiarly.

The more you learn, the easier it gets. And you don’t have to do a whole remodeling job on your personality. You’ll find what works and what doesn’t. And as a pragmatic person, it will automatically become easier to do more of the former and less of the latter.

Not all tools work for everyone. Either I’m just clumsy using SET, or my husband’s training as a lawyer makes that tool too obvious. But I can use the principles of it if I break it up and sprinkle it through several sentences.

I encourage you to try one tool at a time and see how it works in your relationship. Perhaps a good one to start with is not to invalidate. I’ll post the link soon.

[Enabler]

Massive fan of FF’s advice here. My T is skinny on making judgement calls on my W whom he’s never met. Yes he might make interpretations but he’d more likely prompt me to seeing a reason that damning her outright... .for example it was me whom went to him with suspicions of BPD rather than him sliding a copy of SWOE over the coffee table. You’re wife’s therapist should be focussing on her issues and the way she thinks rather than making assumptions she’s had minimal contact with.

In essence FFs advice is to put structures and procedures around the T... .structures and procedures that she should already be professional enough to be adhering to already as part of her profeaaaional training... .else what is this person? A paid gossip or agony aunt?

[Cat Familiar]

Here’s the link I mentioned:  https://bpdfamily.com/content/communication-skills-dont-be-invalidating

[formflier]

Just reread my post and others replies on here and realized I left out the "get out of jail free card" I am trying to give you.

You guys have this meeting... .agreement is made to not talk, unless sanctioned by Ts as healthy.  

So... wife comes up to you

"blah blah blah... my T says you are a witch because you turned me into a newt"  (for clarity... .you are tempted to ask if the nose she placed on you is a fake witch nose... wisely you decide not to)  Then... .with friendliness and confidence you say... ."oh... thanks for letting me know... .when is our joint appointment to talk about it?"  (and... .nothing else will be said about it... because that's where you stay)

Ah... let's say that your wife and or therapist refuses to have the joint meeting (T is unlikely to refuse this... .your wife is wildcard)

"blah blah blah... .my T says you are a man-eater... even though you look like a cuddly bunny"

(knowing you are defeated... .you ask... ."how did she know?"

With glee... .your wife exclaims... ."Good grief man... .look at the bones!"  

You recover enough to say... "Fine honey... I'll be able to discuss this further at the meeting with me, you and your T... .let me know when that is."


See... .you are saying yes in all instances... .being friendly and handing things back to her.

Smile... .and enjoy...

https://youtu.be/xzYO0joolR0

https://youtu.be/cCI18qAoKq4

FF

[Ltahoe]

I do appreciate the thoughts but I suppose my trouble is my wife has said her T doesn’t want to see me individually or as a couple. So basically in order to get anything done I’d have to go behind wife’s back. The wife is open to couples T but with a different T.  Would it possibly be better to scratch the whole meeting with her individual T and just find one familiar with BPD?  This is what I’m thinking. I’m not saying this is a war but I’m kind of seeing it as pick your battles wisely or cut your losses, I feel like it’s too much energy and isn't riskless to proceed with her T.  

I like the idea of discounting anything W claims T says unless I hear it. Which I am pretty much over it. So I’m controlling sexually and with money who cares?

This is where it could be helpful to use your ideas FF use the mutual counselor as the person that is informed by the two individual T’s.

Also I do like that other thought if the wife claims T says, I’ll say great when can we discuss this issue with T. Lol that’s awesome, I’m going to literally say that just so you know. It’ll go something like this.

W: T says you’re controlling

M:Great now when do you want to do a joint session with T to discuss the issue.

W: you’re not seeing my T

M: well I suppose it doesn’t bother you that much then.

[formflier]

  So basically in order to get anything done I’d have to go behind wife’s back.

Whoa... .I'm obviously not communicating my idea somehow... .

Let me start over.  This is a proactive "shot across the bow " (i'm retired Navy guy).

Perhas you email or somehow contact your wife's T directly.  My preference is email, where you can cc your wife.  All up front... .nobody surprised... everyone see's same thing... .and if they want... .they can claim you are talking about flying monkeys... .or that your words mean what they mean... .


DO NOT ask if it's ok to contact your wife's T... .no playing phone... no asking permission.  You've been told something concerning... .and you are deciding to go directly to the source... .not to debate the past... but to clarify things going forward. 

If the T says no... or your wife says no... .then I would clarify to both of them you are available to discuss concerns with both of them but you are not available to discuss the contents of their T relationship in any way shape or form... without both of them present.

Then you go do that...

M: well I suppose it doesn’t bother you that much then.

No... .this is poking at her feelings... .stay away from that.

Stay friendly... .stay in "yes" mode... .stay willing to move forward talking with them both, because this is about your wife's concerns... .and her concerns deserve the best.

Positive... positive... positive

At some point... .if she continues attempting being a booger... .kinda shake you head... ."I have no idea what to say.  This seems so important to you, yet I don't understand the apparent unwillingness to communicate openly about this."  then... .literally shrug your shoulders and walk away. 

Important never to "pass judgment" on her position... .stay bemused... .

Thoughts?

FF

[Notgoneyet]

Ltahoe ,

  I'll just share a few quick things w you from my situation w our current marriage C/ addiction T that my (uBPD) wife & I have been seeing for about a yr. Started going for Marriage C after being referred by our former MC of 2yrs that figured out within about 6mo that my w had more then just servere depression, anxiety, Ptsd, alcoholic issue, Etc. After seeing at least 7-8 MC in our 35+ yr relationship she was the 1st one that ever mentioned BPD & she basical told my w after those 2 yrs that she really didn't think she could give us the help we needed the most so gave us some referals that were more specialized for (our needs). Our current C isn't a BPD specialist ,so to speak but has experiance w and has treated BPD's in the past and we began to see slow progress within a few mo. My uBPDw has a hard time getting along w most T & C and this current one is a good fit so we're sticking w her for now. My w still insists that I'm most of that problem in the marriage so I still go to most every session whether or not I say a word in session or even go in every time. BPD is never even mentioned but progress is happening.

  w's  impulsive CC spending was out of control 15yrs ago, I was the bread winner and payed those bills after numerous attempts, refin, and many promises I came home one day and cut up most all of the  C cards. & froze just one for each of us in a tray of water. Couldn't use it without sitting it out to thaw for a few hrs. Impulse is usally gone by then. We stay on budget these days by using pre-agreed amount of cash b4 she shops for most things like groceries, clothes, etc. Sounds a bit extreme I realize but no arguments & no over spending. It did take a couple yrs of me hearing complaints about how much she wasn't able to buy when she ran out of cash b4 shoping was done. We each carry a debit card these days as well.
       Hope and prayers to you, NGY

[Ltahoe]

NGY I like that idea. My wife did cut up her card I threw it away after it was cut. We tend to follow Dave Ramsey type advice but not exactly. A preplanned budget that includes discretionary spending, this time she violated it though. I was thinking about cancelling our cards and getting a joint card. Only reason we’d want a card really is for traveling purposes. However canceling old accounts and replacing it with a new one is bad for our credit.  Perhaps each of us ordering a new card on our old account, so we don’t know the numbers, then having the other spouse freeze it would work.

[Red5]

We tend to follow Dave Ramsey type advice but not exactly. 

Dave Ramsey is solid !

Listen to him all the time, great advice in regards to finance, and he is a Christian, which melds well with me.

Red5

[Ltahoe]

FF I’m not just walking away. I’m just thinking how I want to proceed and looking at the situation from the best odds, or best route, one road was closed and I’m not so sure I want to be like screw it im driving it anyways when I see other routes too.

So what I know is when I initially was bothered by the accusations let’s look at my state. I was FOGed out if that’s a even a word. Perhaps I am still FOGed out but at least visibility isn’t only 10ft right now. I was being bombarded with multiple things all in a short span, divorce threats, being accused of multiple things including controlling. So in hindsight I look at the scenario, when was the controlling accusation mentioned. Basically when my wife wasn’t getting her way, why then if it really was such a concern bring it up then, her therapy session wasn't that day. Why didn’t she really come home from her T session and say hey I’m interested in discussing your controlling issues. She didn’t it only came out when she didn’t get her way and was on the spot. So I asked her if she really thought that I was controlling and she says yes sexually. So what happens the overspending now is deflected and takes a back seat because I’m getting attacked on a new front my sexuality. I mean isn’t that all part of the BPD game create confusion.

I’m  looking at the other things involved my wife has the PD things common with this PD are dissociation, splitting, projecting and issues accepting fault. So me talking about this(money) probably was stressful and most likely caused some Dysregulating. Could’ve my wife’s therapist said I’m controlling or suggested it for trying to dig in deeper as why and what I’m trying to control? But I’ll leave unknowns out for now.

So my wife continues that I have the problem and should see a counselor. Actually this was a perfect in for me to start therapy, now I’m not just randomly starting it. In fact it was really her idea I see a therapist in her mind. So she says I need help and I’m in denial and she’s told me how to fix it(therapy).

So what do I ask,

M: do you want me to see named T(her therapist)?

W: no

M: are you sure maybe since she knows a lot about our relationship already it could be beneficial we both see the same T and see T together when we need

W: no she doesn’t want to see you

M: ok if she doesn’t want to see me individually would you like to do some couples sessions with her, especially since you seem comfortable with her and again she’s already more informed of your needs

W: no she doesn’t want to do couples with us

M: ok do you want to do a couples session with her in the meantime til I find an individual T and we find a couple T

W: No, not my T at all not for anything she doesn’t feel comfortable counseling you.

So given what I know about my wife it will be WW3 if I say hey I’m calling your counselor and stating such and such and requesting we meet together or that I address it the exact way you say it in email. Then since I’ve already asked just doing it without asking will feel like going around her.

In all reality would I really want this T to be our long term couples T anyways, no not at all for multiple reasons. From her seeing my wife upwards of 6-7 years and she’s still having issues. The fact is whether my wife has anything to do with it or not the therapy doesn’t involve anything concerning the betterment of her BPD. Maybe wife is just that good or T is that ignorant or some combination of both, really irrelevant it’s just not working. T isn’t specialized in pwBPD or the practices she works with don’t offer DBT. So even though I offered to go it’s probably not in our best long term interest for me to see her or do couples with her. So why fight for a a few minutes of T time.

Truth is I’ve got some good advice here in this thread. And I’ve had my eyes opened, who knows what is what and just discount it.  That’s what I’m going to do Discount anything that comes out of T that I’m not invited to or allowed to present myself with. I’m going to make it known that I’m discounting it. If wife doesn’t want me to discount anything then I’ll follow the advice to say ok great we can talk about this in T. End of story.

My wife’s open to couples and allowed to join my T if needed. My wife’s not being picky on couples so I’ll see that it’s one that’s specialized in BPD. Perhaps if I try to force myself into her T wife or T  feels I’m being controlling over counseling whether warranted or not. Then I stand to lose my ground by wife feeling controlled over counseling, and her not trusting the whole counseling thing I’ve set up with BPD specialized T’s and withdrawing or doing it resentfully. It’s really not my problem in 6 plus years her T hasn’t figured out my wife.

The signs are there for her T a woman now in her mid 30s who thought I was the greatest thing since sliced bread for the first year of our relationship then splitting me. My wife(then GF) made it known her T was really happy for her and us and I’m such a great guy, to what it is now. Plus they’ve had to talk about the 6 jobs that she’s gone through(some spontaneous quits and others termination) plus business she got involved in. So 7 careers in just as many years and I’m sure she’s split the actual jobs situations too. It’s all there no way she can think her client is normal. If she does idk. If I go and set things straight for her T then what. Her T is made aware she’s not qualified to deal with the W or Us. I’ll let this one go and take more control of the two T situations I can.

[Ltahoe]

Dave Ramsey is solid !

Listen to him all the time, great advice in regards to finance, and he is a Christian, which melds well with me.

Red5

Ya his advice even though common sense put a system together that helped us out of short term debt and has mostly kept us in check. Really the first time my wife’s slipped financially in a while. I’m not disciplined enough to follow his mortgage advice though, that’s Ramsey to the max. I’ve read his TMM, financial peace, and smart money smart kids.

I still think the ice thing is genius. I know Ramsey recommends 0 credit cards but there’s certain times I’d rather use them than debit cards, car rentals, hotel deposits, etc. but not for credit per se.

[DivDad]

Ltahoe.
I sound like a broken record, but respectfully, you have to let go all that you hear about what the BPD T is saying or not saying. The information is being filtered and manipulated.   It doesn’t move YOUR ball forward.  Since the BPD mentioned that you should seek your own T, please do so. For your own emotional well-being and finding the right tools to deal with the BPD.

 Let the BPD go to her T and you go to yours.

 I have been in your shoes.  It took me many years to seek outside help because I was hoping beyond hope and trying to use reason. It was a never ending cycle.  I get that there is a lot of history between the BPD and her T.  You need to start your own history with your own T in order to get some perspective on things.

You said, “I’m going to make it known (to the BPD) that I’m discounting it.”  (i.e the BPD relaying what her T said.)  My advice is not to say anything to the BPD.  It’s only going to trigger the BPD to rage on you.  And it serves no purpose.  Just say to yourself over and over again, “I am going to discount what I hear.” and move on.
 
You mentioned, “My wife’s open to couples and allowed to join my T if needed.”  I am not in anyway a T, but in my case, I had to seek my own independent T and get grounded myself before trying to tackle a joint session.  It took many months to get grounded.

 In my case, at one point we had a court appointed parent coordinator (PC), who after two joint sessions, and realizing what was going on… the PC scheduled separate sessions thereafter. It avoided all the BPD grandstanding which enabled the PC to drill down on the issues.

Too, during a court appointed mediation session, my exBPD L….not my L….requested that we mediate issues in separate rooms.  My exBPD lawyer wanted to eliminated the BPD unnecessary grandstanding in order to focus on the mediation issues.  BPD love an audience.
In summary, even though it is hard, try and reduce any conversations about the BPD T…and concentrate on your therapy. You need to heal and get perspective on things.  As the flight attendants says, “Put the oxygen mask on you first, before assisting others.”

[formflier]

You are missing the big point of my advice... .no discussion with your wife.

Stop talking, asking, listening about therapists... controlling... .blah blah blah.

Reach out to her counselor (don't ask your wife... .inform her of outcome)

let her start WW 21 if she wants. 

Big picture:  much less talking... much more action.  The action will help you talk even less about whacky stuff.

Your actions matter... .stop asking for your wife's opinion on things.

FF

[Enabler]

I believe it’s pretty apparent that your wife has created a fantasy world for herself with her T. I don’t know what is happening in your W T sessions but the very fact that she has been seeing her for more than 5 years with little noticeable progress strikes me as odd... .to the point of unethical since T’s have an obligation to cease working with someone when they no longer see any progress. So... .your wife has a fantasy world, by you seeing her T you are highly likely to obliterate that fantasy world in one session. Maybe you produce facts and evidence that disproved her fantasy or dare I say it ask “how is it you believe I am sexually controlling? How is it that I am controlling with money?” She would then be required to produce reasoning behind her claims.

FFs suggestions of calling her out to put it crudely are bold and brave and they involve significant risks of upsetting the apple cart... .but, it will bring a huge source of fantasy crashing towards reality which frankly pwBPD hate. So, yes you could continue on your current path hoping to massage the reality and fantasy together, but realistically you have 2 choices, get your own independent T and get grounded... .which tbh sounds like you are anyway as your able to an extent look through comments and see meaning through the bla bla bla... .or, put a stop to a fantasy relationship which is more than likely just a huge source of validation for her fantasy... .you’d essentially be saying “if you want to pass judgement on me in your fantasy world, let it at least be based on experience of me.

[Ltahoe]

Yes I see, I understand ultimately it comes down to slowly ending her fantasy and allowing her to hang on to part of her fantasy for some time or immediately ending it all together.

Truth is I don’t know what sort of dysregulation that would bring(bold plan) and how I’d handle it also. I already know I’m a source of dysregulation for her, I haven’t even figured out how not to engage or JADE which already makes her worse.

I know we don’t know what goes on in therapy. But Enabler you’re right with your “agony aunt” comment I’ve wondered years ago what’s the point of her therapy. I’ve really never saw improvement and until recently never knew what they talked about. It’s also why it angered my initially as these were the first time I’ve heard these accusations. In hindsight though it also makes them easier to dismiss. 6-7 years of therapy and now I’m controlling, ok right.

As of right now I am starting therapy for myself. I realize my plan is a bit of longer term and perhaps more effort, more easing.  I don’t expect my plan to unfold overnight or immediately over the course of months at minimum. I see certain aspects of what DivDad is saying also but I’d probably be a little more agressive. Couples may not be immediately but the ultimate goal is to discuss things and communicate with W.  Both the plans are forward looking I understand I won’t know the extent of the past, and it doesn’t matter it’s a delusion anyways as many have pointed out.  It is a hard choice really, because being cooperative with the BPD doesn’t yield any change anyways. I’ll consider all options perhaps get a few more therapy sessions in myself and let the upcoming vacation at least pass by before I make any bold decisions.  

[formflier]

There is a chance... .a small one that this would upset the apple cart and take away all the fantasy.  That would involve you actually having a meeting with the therapist and the wife... and "clarifying" all of the past.

I think there is very little chance that is going to happen.

Sometimes I don't use the right analogy... .or... whatever.

Right now... Ltahoe is in a dark room... cowering and shaking at stories of he sexual control... . He really doesn't want that to get out... because then he will be like FF.   A harem of about 30... .and a secret family on the side.  

Anyway... .by reaching out directly... you are turning on the light switch in the room.  Your wife will ask you to turn it off... .and you'll be saying... ."no... I'll keep the lights on in the room I'm in."   then  "your welcome to go to another room without lights on... .just know I'll miss you."

OK... analogy over.

Little chance of clarifying the past... .you aren't asking for that... .you are asking for help being the best you going forward and supporting your wife's T goals.  

And... .of course you will respect their privacy... .and not discus with T or your wife... .T... .in any way shape or form... without both of them present.  And... of course you are very flexible on setting that up... when they can use your help.

In the back of your mind... .you are also making a mental note to stop discussing "mental issues" outside of a T's office.

So... discussions about  control... .co-morbidity... .projection... blah blah... where one party is blaming the other... .or asking the other to diagnose... .that's over.

If someone wants to say "Hey... i'm anxious about my meeting today and had a hard time sleeping.  Can we snuggle for a bit?"    

Again... you aren't explaining all that.  But this step with your wife's T is you making a U turn with your life and "debates" over content and judgments made by Ts.

Do you really think the meeting will actually happen?    I don't.  This is "turning on the light switch.  on't be surprised if you see odd creatures scurry to another dark room when you do so.  on't worry about that... .just keep your lights on.

FF

[Harley Quinn]

This thread has reached it's size limit and has been locked.  The topic continues in Part 2, HERE

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