Well that was a kick in the face

[Shawnlam]

Well today she came to see me , to tell me how the reasons she’s having a hard time advancing with me is because of her ex boyfriend.She said she feels bad for him, that he’s stopped smoking pot,that they can talk about things they never could before? That she doesn’t want to push him out of her life totally and wants to help him.Thats why she’s having a hard time building a life with me ? Although in her words she is in love with me?

I’ll be honest , I didn’t know what to say ? I just said to her we sometimes don’t get to pick our feelings towards ppl.Thats all I could muster because I was in shock that I’m not so many words she said she was still in love with her ex and can’t let go.As I’m writing this I’m between quiet/anger/sadness/crying or not to cry.This came out of nowhere, I never saw it coming,we never discuss him ever and it wasn’t an issue to me ,because frankly I thought it was a closed chapter in her life (her words a year ago).I feel stupid for losing almost a year of my life with her ,I feel stupid because  I lost out to a bipolar manic depressive individual with more problems than her? I guess the term nice guys finish last isn’t so far from the truth?

Then she asks me as she’s leaving with her son if I’m coming outside to great her goodbye , all I could do was just say no,kissed her cheek and told her to be safe ? I’m stunned,was /am/will be ? What does one do in this case ? I truly don’t want to hear from her right now and I hope to god I don’t get a goodnight I love you text like everything is honky Dory because it’s just not? She treated me poorly just this past weekend that I rolled over on and didn’t say a word about today,hoping maybe an apology, yet in the end she pities the guy who left her 3 times with no furniture or electrical I’m their house that she took a bath on and is still paying for?  Am I missing something here, why do I feel so stupid right now ? I’m sad,confused and just get the impression she just doesn’t care walking out ?

[Skip]

Well today she came to see me , to tell me how the reasons she’s having a hard time advancing with me is because of her ex boyfriend. She said she feels bad for him, that he’s stopped smoking pot,that they can talk about things they never could before? That she doesn’t want to push him out of her life totally and wants to help him. Thats why she’s having a hard time building a life with me ? Although in her words she is in love with me?

Stay calm, man. Calm.

The first thing here is not to over react. The second thing is to inventory what this really means. That will likely take a few days and some calm.

I'm not suggesting that you stay or go. I'm saying think before you act.

You know, it was only few weeks ago that you were writing that she was sleeping with him and someone else. You are writing today that your thought he was out of the picture for a long time. There is a lot of "feelings = facts" going on in the last couple of weeks and it drive you to painful and destructive extremes.

Take a breath. This could be bad, or it could just be a bump in the road.

What part of the paragraph above is what she said and what part is your extrapolation. What did she say exactly?

Break this down.  

[pearlsw]

Hi Shawnlam,

I hear that you are hurting. I hear that you feel a bit blindsided. Do you see this as a break up by her? Are you wanting to break up?

All you can do today is feel the feelings and let the decisions come in time, if they are yours to make.

I think what you said was a fine statement. "We sometimes don't get to pick our feelings towards people." You controlled yourself and did not say it in anger, fair comment.  I think you will find the more you stay in control through whatever is happening now the better you will get through it.

Anyone might feel "stupid" if they give a person a chance, restart a relationship, only to suddenly find out that said relationship isn't getting off the ground after all. Her feelings were complicated. That does not make you a fool, or stupid, or even mean you wasted time. No.

No matter what, even worst case scenario, and take this from someone with a lot of ex boyfriends, you learn something every time. In this case, no matter what, you have been inspired to be a better communicator for this or a future relationship. You did not waste your time. If you gave her love and made each other happy for any amount of time, you did not waste your time. Life is full of risks. We take them because we want to live and get as much as we can out of life. You have done your best here.

Just my opinion.

warmly, pearl.  

[Shawnlam]

Actually skip the way I wrote the paragraph was exactly what she said to me in those words I promise there was no shawn translation in there

[Skip]

These two lines... .

  That she doesn’t want to push him out of her life totally and wants to help him.
How does she want to help him? Do you know?

  She is in love with me.
Is this true? She did come back as she said shew would (before).

Did she explain what these mean?

[Shawnlam]

He is a bipolar manic depressive (not my opinion but an actual case) that had a hard life but nothing ridiculous.She feels bad for him and pities him.We just finished talking again and she has to call me back because she was crying too much and says she feels like garbage for having told me this stuff.I tried to explain to her that this ex is 37 years old and how can she help someone who hasn’t helped himself in 37 years ? He refuses meds and refuses help but keeps texting her stuff like (I’m moving out west forget about me blah blah blah). So in her words she feels bad for him and wants him to be happy so she can’t flush him out of her life.

Her words to me if she loves me , is because I’m caring ,generous , stable ,and fun to be around .Her words.

[Skip]

You get on the other side of this... .rather than go into defensive mode.

You could validate her for being honest. You could validate her for being a good person. You could suggest that this type of thing is risky for a couple if you both aren't involved and  you would like to help too.

Go easy with this.

You don't know what kind of F.O.G. is coming her way or why she feel obligation and guilt, but this is a BPD-ish thing. Once you start to become part of this, he will either drift away or ask her to make a decision - and then the obligation and guilt will be broken.

This is not good news. But it is not the end of the word.

With my partner, there was a time where she was splitting her time with me and two other things. One included a guy who had a crush on her and was her "friend". I slowly got involved in both things. She liked that. She felt she could tell me the truth even if awkward. The guy slowly went away. The other thing is something we do together often.

I have mentioned to you a few times that this can't work unless you make some changes in the way you deal with her, women in general. You get wounded fast and deep and then you push back. Often these things can be finessed.

See what I mean?

Something was off and she came clean. She wanted you acceptance. This is part of the process of building a relationship with any women.

[pearlsw]

I tried to explain to her that this ex is 37 years old and how can she help someone who hasn’t helped himself in 37 years ?

Hi Shawnlam,

This sounds like the E in don't JADE. It sounds like judgement about the guy, which unless he is outright dangerous, is not a good idea especially as she cares about him. You lose nothing by acknowledging her complicated feelings. Her reasons for liking him are her reasons. Let it be.

I like the idea mentioned above about validating that she is a good person for telling you the truth and being honest. Better to establish that then her feeling she has to hide him or this from you. Don't make her give up a friend, let her learn that three is a crowd in a couple. The time for decisions does come.

warmly, pearl.

[Shawnlam]

Well on the phone I did tell her I appreciated her telling me and it could not have been easy for her.She told me it was her therapist that on Thursday that said to her all the sessions lately have been with xyz, seems you have not let go of him.Thats when she went weird Thursday night and that today she chose to tell me all this .I told her on the phone call however that I honestly don’t know what to say here ?  She cried and asked me if we would still be able to talk ? I told her let’s not jump to conclusions and let’s just recap this .I repeated what she told me about this guy to make sure I understood and she then said to me
You always do this you control the situation and don’t let me talk to say what I want to say , so I then said , ok I was just trying to understand better what you were telling me .Please talk to me and tell me , she was too overwhelmed and said she feels too much like crap now and can’t talk can she call me back.I said sure .Some things that came from the talk were :
1: I asked her is there a chance she will get back together or it’s 100% done ? She said I can’t say 100% but I don’t want him back

2: I said when or will you ever say goodbye to him or keep him for life ? She said she doesn’t know but doesn’t want to hurt him

3: I said look I don’t even know what to say anymore to be honest simply because your telling me you don’t know what to do , you love me,but still have feelings for this guy? What do you want me to say here ?

[Shawnlam]

I know I’m angry right now (mostly feel stupid) , but I’m really starting to think I deserve better than this.Sounds rash but even before this obstacle in the bettering a relationship post last week I said the same thing .Why do I need this in my life it just causes anxiety ,anger,lose of sleep ,health issues and for what? A future walk away possibility? A major health issue from all this stress? For particular reserved moments of regulated emotional love that come as often as an average summer thunderstorm? Am I really only worth crumbs ?

[pearlsw]

I know it seems small, and not enough right now, but technically she did say she does not want him back and she does love you.

She is probably experiencing a lot of shame and embarrassment. Perhaps reinforce that you appreciate her honesty, as hard as it is for BOTH of you.

Did you ask her if she has romantic feelings for both of you? And if so, how she would like to handle sorting that out?

with compassion, pearl.

[pearlsw]

I know I’m angry right now (mostly feel stupid) , but I’m really starting to think I deserve better than this.Sounds rash but even before this obstacle in the bettering a relationship post last week I said the same thing .Why do I need this in my life it just causes anxiety ,anger,lose of sleep ,health issues and for what? A future walk away possibility? A major health issue from all this stress? For particular reserved moments of regulated emotional love that come as often as an average summer thunderstorm? Am I really only worth crumbs ?

I remember you were expressing ambivalence about the relationship, yes. I know you were struggling with that, and now this new topic has come up.

It is worth noticing your feelings, but not letting yourself get carried away too fast. How about sleeping on it and seeing how you feel after some time digesting this?

As I said above, she did say she loves you. How do you feel? Do you love her? Have your feelings taken a hit?

take care, pearl.

[Shawnlam]

She said she doesn’t have romantic feelings for him just pity for him .For me yes she said she wants to build a life with me blah blah blah.I know my anger is writing this but at this point because she now knows it upset me , she can easily BS me to reverse this avalanche.For all I know this is some sort of triangulation stuff.Personally (but I won’t do it) I just want to tell her , you love me ? Say good bye to him in a polite way and move on.But I know too much now to know this will push her towards him and push me further away... .but deep down once my anger subsides , I may come to the conclusion my caring for this is receding ,maybe not.

[Shawnlam]

Unfortunately she’s supposed to call me later so I got another round of this before bed otherwise I surely would sleep on it.Do I still love her,yes I do but I can feel it’s grip weakening lately.

[pearlsw]

Unfortunately she’s supposed to call me later so I got another round of this before bed otherwise I surely would sleep on it.Do I still love her,yes I do but I can feel it’s grip weakening lately.

Hi Shawnlam,

As hard as it is, maybe you should do a lot of listening (without judgement or expectation) when she speaks during the call. Don't be totally silent, but listen, if you can, as if you were one step removed from this.

She does love you. This may only be a bump in the road.

If I was you, rather than tear down the other guy, I'd offer a vision of what you could have together. You are competing. Just be you, the man she loves, more than the other guy. Still.

I have one ex that could show up and throw me a bit, would have appeal. But all in all, I could say I'd take a pass. I know she has BPD and is not so rational in all likelihood, nevertheless, let her decide what to do about this guy and let her feel free/safe enough to share it with you. You don't have to go along with what she wants, but at least you'll know what is going on and it won't go underground. That is where the long-term danger is. In a way, believe it or not, you are lucky you are talking about this! (And not having it pop up at an even later point.)

warmly, pearl.

[Shawnlam]

That is very true ,she could have said nothing and months years down the line tada it pops up.If there is a bright side to this ,that’s definitely it so I’ll take that positivity and go with it for sure .Ill keep quiet during the call except to answer her questions simply because I still don’t know what to think .

[braveSun]

Ill keep quiet during the call except to answer her questions simply because I still don’t know what to think .

Hey Shawnlam, I am reading this thread and I can sense a level of fear. It's something I have a lot in my own relationship with my spouse. We've know each other for more and 22 years, and have been together for at least 18 of those, than got married 2 years ago. The marriage brought with it a lot of uncertainty. Uncertainly can trigger fear. That's what I saw when I read your post. Fear can make us go off. If nothing else, for you too, the experience of sitting a bit with your own feelings and learning from them is a very valuable experience.

I would add the classic question. How is your self-care these days?

Sending good thoughts for your call.   

Brave

[Skip]

The disappointment over the holidays could have been cleared up in 2 weeks rather than 4 months with a different approach. Looking back, I think you can see that. She hurt your feelings and pushed back and pushed her away.

This is probably the same.

She is an emotional and impulsive being. If you push back, you are pushing her to the other guy.

Hopefully you can see that your reaction is driving her to pull back right now.

It's hard to check your emotions at the door, hard for anyone, but with a BPD partner you have to do that when the get off center.  Maybe you don't want to do that. That's one choice and logical.  But one choice that doesn't makes sense is to do what failed you last time and expect better results.

[Shawnlam]

She told me on the call she is very poor at saying what she is thinking and that it came out probably the wrong way.I told her again that she did the right think but that right now I feel incredibly stupid and I don’t know what to say anymore .I told her I could have handled everything but when she said to me when I asked her , would you think about going back when or if he got better and she said maybe ,it made me feel very stupid and hurt.She the said I didn’t mean it that what ,that’s not what I meant when I said that and she understood why I’m hurt.We agreed to talk in person Wednesday night after we both see our therapists. I don’t know what to do anymore which is pretty obvious since I’m texting at 400am in my bed got maybe 1 hr sleep

[pearlsw]

She told me on the call she is very poor at saying what she is thinking and that it came out probably the wrong way.I told her again that she did the right think but that right now I feel incredibly stupid and I don’t know what to say anymore .I told her I could have handled everything but when she said to me when I asked her , would you think about going back when or if he got better and she said maybe ,it made me feel very stupid and hurt.She the said I didn’t mean it that what ,that’s not what I meant when I said that and she understood why I’m hurt.We agreed to talk in person Wednesday night after we both see our therapists. I don’t know what to do anymore which is pretty obvious since I’m texting at 400am in my bed got maybe 1 hr sleep

Hi Shawnlam,

You have a good plan here. You have time. No need to get upset and push her away. Now you are gathering information, looking at your feelings, as braveSun astutely points out, looking at your own fears.

You are not stupid. You are not foolish. This is just a relationship issue and you both have choices. Let's use some cold, hard reason and logic here (on your side at least) if you can.

You got new information that impacts the relationship: 

You can take a look at and understand your feelings and control/slow down your reactions: [up to you]

You will talk about it with your therapist this week, so will she: 

You will get through this, and you will be okay.

No beating yourself up, okay man? I am sincerely asking you to not do this if at all possible. Total waste of time... .and you need your strength! 

with compassion, pearl.

[Shawnlam]

I will do my best pearl ,I promise.Thank you for the words and for everyone’s input and help ,you have no idea how much it does mean to me ,sometimes I just have a hard time showing appreciation.

[pearlsw]

I will do my best pearl ,I promise.Thank you for the words and for everyone’s input and help ,you have no idea how much it does mean to me ,sometimes I just have a hard time showing appreciation.

Ah, you are good fella! And you deserve so much love! I know these relationships are hard and mind-bending and majorly disappointing at times.

Let's keep working on keeping you strong and whole because these relationships are hard enough as it is!

You are not alone! You are doing your best! Like I say to myself, you are doing your best, but if you can, when you can, try to do better.  

   pearl.

p.s. get some sleep buddy! close those eyes and let yourself release the tensions of the day. slowly breath out the pain of the day. let it go. let it go. let it go. with each breath. let it go.

[Shawnlam]

She just texted me saying ( because last night we left off saying we would meet Wednesday) and we left the call where I asked her what does she want with this and what was her expectations after telling me what she did yesterday.

HER TEXT:
I wanted to tell you because you deserve to know I’m not over the BS that happened(talking about her and her ex bad finish).I don’t want to move on without you.There was just no need to keep trying to figure out my struggle ?   End of text .

I answered ok thank you that makes sense  and helps me , talk to you Wednesday

[pearlsw]

HER TEXT:
I wanted to tell you because you deserve to know I’m not over the BS that happened(talking about her and her ex bad finish).I don’t want to move on without you.There was just no need to keep trying to figure out my struggle ?   End of text .

Oh, I've read this twice now and I am not quite sure what she means. Can you translate a bit?

~pearl.

[Shawnlam]

Well I had asked her what her intentions where when telling me about her therapy and the fact her therapist told her she seems stuck on her ex relationship.That this is still causing her issues moving forward in life now with me .So she told me that the reasons why she sometimes feels off or doesn’t know which way to operate in life is because of everything that happened to her and her ex .Fighting,him moving in and out of their house until one day she had enough and they split,sold the house and she ended up with debts etc etc.But at the same time she pities him because of all his issues and doesn’t want to tell him to get out of her life and never talk to her ,she just wants the best for him and to be happy .She then said he stopped smoking and now they have conversations they could never have before (whatever that means ). So I Obviously asked her the inevitabile question, would there be a chance she will go back together with him if he became normal .Her answer was not an100% no. Two conversations after I simply asked her what does she want from me ? And that’s when she texted the above .She said she wanted me to know the truth that she’s weird because she’s not over all the drama of her past relationship,and she says she wants to continue with me , not without me ,but she had to let me know why she sometimes acts weird .I think mostly her therapist opened her eyes to this one but now she has to deal with that truth . I hope that made sense .For me in my head the following questions come up :

1: is she slowly realizing she still loves this guy that hurt her so much ? Or does she already know?
2:even though she says she wants to be with me and start a new life ,am I the “in the meantime guy” to see is ex boyfriend gets better first
3: is she like many people with BPD where honestly she doesn’t really know what she wants anyways so weither it’s me or him it wouldn’t make a difference in the long run anyways?
4: do I keep risking my health ,sanity,heart to be with someone who is so emotionally unbalanced that frankly she shouldn’t even be in a relationship in the first place until she saves herself ?
5: is she just saying she loves me and wants me because her mom and friends like me and think I’m a good person that’s secure and loves her so she’s going with the flow but what she really misses is the ups and downs of her ex relationship? The ups and downs that kinda gave her permission in her own mind to act out and not feel bad because his actions justified her revenge actions ? And she doesn’t get this from me because I don’t get mad anymore or storm out of her life giving her the opportunity to be the bad girl once in awhile ? Something she misses or crave sor even needs to function to suppress her deregulated emotions ?

[Skip]

Is it possible that she means what she says?
She values her relationship with you and doesn't want to lose you. She has haunting and unfinished business with her ex. She is conflicted at some level and doesn't know what it all means yet. This is emotional (not logical) and messy right now. You said that she was discussing this with her therapist. That likely means she is confused, conflicted, unclear, stuck, etc.

Is it possible that how you and her handle things and how things go with the ex will be the primary deciding factor in where this ends up? Regardless of what she says?
If you and her go into the type of relationship you had at the beginning of the year, that this ultimately won't go well with you two. If he shows signs of his old ways, then things won't progress with the two of them. She's not running to him, she is just not closing the door... .and they are talking.

3: is she like many people with BPD where honestly she doesn’t really know what she wants anyways so weither it’s me or him it wouldn’t make a difference in the long run anyways?
5: is she just saying she loves me and wants me because her mom and friends like me and think I’m a good person that’s secure and loves her so she’s going with the flow but what she really misses is the ups and downs of her ex relationship? The ups and downs that kinda gave her permission in her own mind to act out and not feel bad because his actions justified her revenge actions ? And she doesn’t get this from me because I don’t get mad anymore or storm out of her life giving her the opportunity to be the bad girl once in awhile ? Something she misses or crave sor even needs to function to suppress her deregulated emotions ?

I doubt that this is what is drives her.

4: do I keep risking my health ,sanity, heart to be with someone who is so emotionally unbalanced that frankly she shouldn’t even be in a relationship in the first place until she saves herself ?

This is a heartbreaking messy development, no doubt. Things are certainly up-in-the-air. Her emotions and now yours.

I think the answer to your question is to try to come to grips with who she really is and make a decision on that. Your posts here portray two very different people. A person working to get her act together. A despicable, monster slut who is best described by Internet "vampire" sites.

Who is she really? Get that balanced perspective in your head - hard when things are emotional, but it will help.

How much do you invest in this? In general, when your partner is seeing a T to discuss a relationship, that tends to be destabilizing. T's often tell their clients that they are being reasonable and the partner is something you might want to think twice about. And ex boyfriends being in the communication queue are never good... .it creates an imbalance that most likely everyone will want to get settled sooner rather than later.

One thing I wouldn't do it get-tough on her, bully, pout, etc. You will only hurt your, the relationship, and make the other guy look good.

My suggestion would be to either try and get involved to help the guy.

Or, very nicely and with zero pressure, exit the scene in a way that you are attractive and  really likeable a poss the reality of her pending loss (you). That's a dice roll, but a good one.

Or just walk walk away and look for a more straight forward relationship. You are 11 months in and, except for 9-10 weeks, this has been a misadventure with pregnancies, and breakups, and now, ex-boyfriends.

[Shawnlam]

May I ask , how would you suggest or coach me on exiting the scene in a zero pressure/ dramatic way ,or to your last point? I don’t believe I’m up for helping this other guy,life is short and we all have enough with our problems I can’t and won’t see myself playing DR Phil with her ex? I think I’ll take the coaching and suggestions on how to do as you said and apply them on Wednesday as heart breaking it will be to give up a woman I love this much .Thank you

[Skip]

I don’t believe I’m up for helping this other guy, life is short and we all have enough with our problems I can’t and won’t see myself playing DR Phil with her ex?

Just to be clear, getting involved with the other guy to help is more about making it you and her working together to do whatever it is she wants to do to help. It's more about you working with her to resolve what she is trying to resolve. Most men would exit that scene in pretty short order (him). She may or my not be open to this.

Not selling this, just explaining.

I think I’ll take the coaching and suggestions on how to do as you said and apply them on Wednesday as heart breaking it will be to give up a woman I love this much.

Let's talk about this with members here.

What are her, the kids, her families favorite/most favorable experiences with you. Repeat that. Maybe you plan an trip to a water park, have a great family time, or something. Have a really upbeat time. Don't mention any of the issues.  Then just give her space (don't announce it - leave it all vague). If/when she contacts you tell her what a great time you had, ask her what she's thinking (don't engage it, just let her be heard) telling her you fully support her doing what she feels is the right thing to sort out her feelings (stay vague and don't make it sound like an ending). Just lay back. It's important that this feel really authentic and above all, not manipulative, pouting, quitting, etc.

Let her feel the best of you and then pull back as the most caring you can be.

See what happens.

[Wicker Man]

Shawn

After reading through your thread and remembering some of the sleepless nights in my recent past I would suggest you decide not to decide at this point.  If you are not sleeping it is neigh on impossible to make good life choices.

I found this quote from a sleep researcher and it certainly explains some of my actions last year.  I had a week where I was managing two or three hours of sleep each night --my emotional state was shattered and my decision making was gravely impaired.  Having added Ambien and plenty of alcohol into the equation I was a wreck and acted accordingly... .  Things which should have been clear to me were not and I made some choices I lived to regret.

[During sleep deprecation] "The ability of the brain to tell what's important is compromised. It's as if suddenly everything is important." --Talma Hendler.

From what I understand you have entertained the idea of continuing your relationship with your ex.  This is a fine choice if you think it is right for you -however you had to know this was not going to be easy.  From what I have come to understand a relationship with someone suffering from BPD is a high risk venture --if it works it can be an incredible and magical experience, however this takes a lot of work and a good bit of luck.  Personality disorders are life long and akin to a 'world view' for the person afflicted.  Personality disorders can be managed -but they don't go away.

Whether or not this is a good life choice for you is going to be difficult to ascertain and only time will tell. 

From what I have read in your thread you have not invested enough time on this second go around to know yet.  Since you are distraught and not sleeping this might not be the right time to make a life choice. 

I am playing devil's advocate here because it is my understanding every time a relationship fails and there is yet another attempt of reconciliation the stakes get higher -the dysfunction more pronounced. 

Both parties are hurt in a break up and each subsequent break up makes a healthy relationship less likely.  In other words if you call it quits now and regret it the likelihood of a healthy relationship with her in the future goes down -a third reconciliation is more likely to fail than this second iteration.

My advice would be to go into Wednesday as an empty cup -let the conversation fill you. Don't have an agenda.  Listen to her and give yourself some time to figure out what is right for you.    You can end a relationship at any point -but it is a line in the sand which should only be crossed once.  A break up should never be a bid for power or a punishment. 

Wicker Man

[Wicker Man]

Just lay back

This is what I meant... .  however it took me an entire page to say it... .