Wife isn't accountable and I don't enforce boundaries Part 2

[ziasquinn3000]

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Another thing I want to work on is being able to identify "garbage to filter through" and verbal abuse. I have a difficult time in dealing with oh ok, she's just upset now and it's stuff I should filter. I think I'm doing the best I can right now and it's still something I want to get better at. Such as when we can't communicate effectively I say I'll have to stop the conversation as it becomes more attacking me rather than venting. Could use suggestions here tho!

When she was blaming me last week that I wasn't being supportive of her and that she had to get support from her boss for her suicidal ideation, I told my therapist this. My therapist asked how that made me feel. I honestly did not have an answer for her and I was completely stumped! My therapist said someone with codependent tendencies typically repress their emotions to the extent that they feel they do not have them. Such as repressing anger and thinking they never get angry! Reflecting back at it I was definitely frustrated. My therapist suggests I should identify what I'm feeling and to not let it control me and to also respect it. Such as if I am angry do not end up yelling and shouting but to instead maybe remove myself from the situation, which of course is stuff I've been practicing in the past (which led to my wife trapping me in the house). As I have only gotten legit "angry" at my wife like enough times to count on one hand, because I repress it so much.

Also I will be starting an RO-DBT class at her DBT center. I start that tonight. So this will be interesting how this resource will pan out for me. It's 30 weeks long. My therapist suggests that I do have slightly more than mild codependency but not full-blown as I've been handling being with and without my wife pretty well. I've been able to feel like I've identified I have control oriented codependency. Also a lot of the RO-DBT behaviours resonate with me very strongly. That I am an "over-controlled" person. Such as not getting angry or delaying gratification a huge amount. Being with my wife has brought the extremes of these behaviours in me.

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[Radcliff]

I'm impressed how you handled her reported suicidal ideation, with safety, respect and compassion, but without letting yourself get manipulated.  Regarding what to do when she is disrespectful other than leaving, I've found that with enough validation of emotions I can sometimes calm things down enough that the disrespect eases.  And I mean a lot of validation, with great patience. 

I certainly understand what you mean about using the tools feeling mechanical, and being called on it by your partner.  It does take a while to make it feel organic, especially for the more complicated tools.

Can you tell us a little more about RO-DBT?  Someone else was mentioning it to me yesterday, but I don't know much about it.

WW

[ziasquinn3000]

Well the thing is, disrespecting is against my values. Is this where my aspiration of being a more compassionate person should overwrite a scenario like this in where I try to calm her down even while being disrespected? This is where I say, do I filter the garbage or do I not entertain it. I guess this is just where distress tolerance comes into play and how much I can safely tolerate the disrespect until I hit my limit to try and help her re-regulate (tho I can't control her).

RO-DBT is Radically Open DBT. It has a lot of same principles as DBT, skills similar to DEAR MAN, etc. RO-DBT is for over-controlled people whereas someone with BPD is under-controlled, such as their emotions, impulsivity, etc. I would consider myself leaning on the over-controlled side and in the past very over-controlled. I have issues with extremely delayed gratification, repressing emotions, doing the morally right thing always, usually thinking I am right while being less open to other people's perspectives (tho I only do this when I am for CERTAIN I am right otherwise I'm way more open), make sure I write out the perfect e-mail or rehearse conversation etc. Being with my wife over the years has actually helped me with this, as she is such the polar opposite it's helped me be a bit more care-free and open to doing things I usually will not do. Being with my wife has also brought these issues of mine, to more extremes. These things have usually not impeded my life and interpersonal relationships or rather, it's usually been a healthy balance basically.

More development on the relationship though and her wanting to move back in. My wife has not been using DEAR MAN GIVE FAST. I have encouraged her to use it on me when asking if she can move in so I can better effectively communicate with her. I haven't said "no" the past week she has asked. I have said we can discuss it and communicate effectively to come to a decision. She will always say no, I want you to give me a yes or no answer. I think through perseverance in answering her the same way the past week and asking her to use DEARMAN has helped as Thursday night she seemed more open (not completely yet) to communicating effectively rather than flat out saying she wants a yes or no. I ended up offering her to have dinner Friday night to discuss the move-in since she has finally started to become respectful and ask more clearly about what she wants and why she wants it. Before meeting with her the new therapist at the DBT center suggested I used Opposite Action, Dime Game and a pros and cons (yes vs no distress tolerance). The results were about 60% yes and 40% no about whether she should move back in or not. The new therapist I'm seeing at the DBT center also suggested "You should COMMIT to one course or the other and operate from that perspective (He's talking about marriage or divorce). This opens up all kinds of possibilities (and real struggles.) Of course it does not always work out (in either case) but the odds are vastly improved towards the desired outcome." Operating from this perspective has let me be way more open-minded and flexible and compassionate even more so than I was before.

We tried talking about things that we needed to come to an agreement on and about "what's the deal" however we couldn't that much. She was too overwhelmed. She was not disrespectful, she was considerate and also compassionate in the sense that she understood I was in an emotional fragile state as well and let me know she understood that and she was not making any demands. She also said that her risk at suicide is too high and she will be going to an out-patient program on Monday. This really blew me away, especially understanding my emotional fragility AND respecting it. So, I referred backed to the skills I used earlier that leaned towards a yes. I also practiced willingness and want to be open to this and have forward thinking. I understand that these breakthroughs won't resolve issues that are very still much there. For now tho I feel safe, confident and hopeful (not too much hope!) and I know going forward I can only change myself and I will be focusing on that. We are still working on what these agreements are between us about "what's the deal". We will probably do this with her therapist. So far each of us have only made a few agreements and commitments as we both know we need to have integrity with doing what we say and shouldn't say anything that we do not intend to follow through with no matter what. She also decided that regardless of what our decision is about moving her back in, that she will be checking into the in-patient program we tried before in the past that she quit after a week and then proceeded into her move out last year which lasted a week before she attempted suicide. So I genuinely believe her when she says her suicidal thoughts are becoming too strong and she needs to get herself checked in.

I was able to spend almost the entire day with her yesterday. I told her I would as she transitions back in her state of her emotional vulnerabilities (she used this to express why it would be safest for her to move back in as she can't take care of herself right now, because of her emotional vulnerabilities, again very clear about what she wanted! Awesome!). She wanted the extra support and I could and wanted to do this for her. It was difficult here and there, as we both have our tendencies to fall into old patterns. However it was mostly fine and pleasant and above all else I focused on being compassionate and opposite action and when I did it smoothed things out. She also practiced compassion too! She could sometimes see when I was having a hard time or uncomfortable and would try as hard as she could to support me and it would just teeter back into she feels awful that she can't support me right now because she cannot support herself (the whole need to go to in-patient program). After she made dinner for me she needed to go back to her place she moved into to pick up a few more things. She wanted me to go and I asked to stay so I could get some recharge time and she could see it would be good for her to go do it on her own as I already helped her with the initial move back in. That was awesome! She also told me she would need a lot of praise for it when she came back. Which I did and it turned out fine! By the end of the night though she put on her favorite show and seemed to be doing fine and wasn't cuddling me anymore and I had no interest in the show. So I asked if she would mind if I go on the computer. She immediately refocused her attention on me, disregarded her show and turned into a childlike state. Fear of abandonment was kicking in big time. I made it very clear that I was open and friendly about getting what I wanted as I had spent a lot of time with her and it would be nice for me and I could still remain with her if she would prefer me to. She of course took it as I don't love her or care about her. That I resent her for spending so much time with her. I partially validated and then just said ok I will stay here. She took it as I don't care and to be fair, I was a bit "out of it" even tho I agreed to remain hanging out with her so I could genuinely see why she thought that. So she got up told me it was clear I didn't care about her and she told me she was going to go sleep in the other bedroom because she thinks it would be best (I almost fell out of bed because she would've never done this in the past. Awesome!)

[Radcliff]

Thanks for the info on RO-DBT.  That was very interesting.

I'm a little fuzzy on your living situation.  Has she moved back in?  You said you helped her with the move, but she still has another place.  She stayed the night in a different room at least once.  What's the current situation, and do you have a plan with her?  What do your therapists say about when you're ready to move back in together?  Have your therapists talked to each other?

WW

[ziasquinn3000]

Yes she moved back in and she has a few items left at her other place which I think she is getting today. Current situation is stable. I am physically and mentally safe. I am making sure to keep that a priority and it is easier to be mentally safe if I practice the skills and keep compassion in mind, basically what I've been doing for the past month.

She is having memory issues and she said she had been having them while she was moved out as well, that she would forget stuff at work which she had complained about before in the past. She said she didn't remember why she slept in the other room. I think it is because of her shame in how she handled that night. She said she didn't even remember most of the day I helped her move back in and the conflicts that happened that day. I should take what she says at face value and give her the benefit of the doubt.

The original plan was that she was going to check into an out-patient program today which lasts several hours 5 days a week (I did not suggest this). I don't think that's going to happen anymore. She seems more focused on getting another job now. I think the suicidal stuff was a manipulation tactic. My therapist said so as well when I saw her on Friday before the move-in. Anyways, it's better to operate from a compassionate/husband perspective and just listen to her and let her go through the motions. I am not taking on the burden of anything she wants that she needs to take care of herself if she fulfills that want. I'm not buying her stuff anymore unless I offer/want to, like dinner. I won't pay for her car or her cat she got or take care of her cat. I will not demand her to do anything regarding that either, I will let her figure out how she wants to do it. I can only control myself.  I will not offer advice without being asked (control-codependency)

The plan right now, I am setting up a session without client with her DBT therapist, as I told her I was concerned about her memory issues and that it might be best if I go talk to her therapist about it. I will obviously talk about everything that's been going on in an objective way with the goal to help her therapist help her. She was fine with this! We are also going to try doing couple's therapy starting this week instead of waiting the month that the DBT therapists suggested since she is already moved back in now. The immediate goal with a couple's therapist session would be to concretely figure out "what's the deal" and what agreements/compromises can we each make. Right now the new DBT therapist I'm seeing made it a very clear point to not agree to anything I have no intentions of following through with. So, so far, with her unable to have hard conversations yet as she says her emotional vulnerabilities are affecting her to not even be able to take care of herself, I've kept it to basic things I know I can uphold until we can talk in therapy about the hard questions and compromises.

[Radcliff]

You've signed up for a lot, but you seem well prepared.  As you know, boundaries will be key.  Serious issues in the past were her trapping you in rooms, taking your cell phone, and unplugging your computer.  How do you plan to proactively avoid those issues?  What will you do if they happen?

WW

[ziasquinn3000]

Yeah I have signed up for a lot and knowing that is an incredible burden I sometimes feel sad about.

Proactively? Continue practicing the skills so it will hopefully not escalate, I understand it's naive to only rely on that. Also, in the past I have always had an opportunity to leave before it starts to escalates. I will just have to do it right away and this time it should be easier because we have a designated a safe room. We live with roommates (yes I know this isn't ideal regarding our situation, we are working on getting our own place) and one of them just left so we converted their room to a safe room (and my wive's hangout spot) that either of us will go to before we have to resort to leaving the house entirely (she went to this room that night she slept in another bedroom). If she traps me, the first time I will use my skills to first listen and then to negotiate getting out and if it doesn't work I will establish the boundary that I will call the police as that is illegal. Hopefully she does not try to test that boundary. I am aware this is easier said than done and I think I can handle that this time around. The ideal will be to bring this up in couple's therapy so I won't have to enforce that boundary as it's happening because right now she's not ready to talk about the physical abuse parts of the relationship as the shame is too high to bring up the boundary before hand.

Cell phone and unplugging computer. I'm not sure, do you have any suggestions? In the past though, through self-enquiry, it happened because I did not listen and validate to her (though that's no excuse for her to do it) so practicing the skills will hopefully help. Obviously I'm not going to be perfect every time so I wonder what some good boundaries would be that reflect with my values if she does unplug my computer or take my phone.

Using the skills during any conflicts since she's been back has kept things at a manageable level and even a pleasant level sometimes. This is not sustainable as she needs to own her own stuff, however it does keep things from going to 10 or 11 and it seems like if the skills don't pan out, she is pro-actively trying to work on it such as sleeping in the other room of her own accord, or going somewhere to blow off steam. The other night she even went to the movies by herself because I said I needed some alone time! So there is progress on both ends.

[raiano18]

This is so relatable to me. As I read it I felt like I was reading it from my perspective! This is my every day. Mental abuse more. Telling me she has to be my #1 and I don't treat her that way, I make her want to hurt herself, I treat her like trash, I don't care about her feelings and I put everyone before her. None of that is true. If it was, we wouldn't be together. I would've given up long ago, but no matter what she says or does (she has physically hurt me) I still love her.

[Radcliff]

Trapping you -- I think your safe room idea is smart.  Nice that you've gotten her to cooperate a bit.  Remember not to flee to a small room like a bathroom.  This plan places a burden on you to make sure you have your cell phone with you, which you might not have when you're in your pajamas.  You shouldn't go into the room without your cell phone.

Cell phone -- You need the phone to call for help, so loss of the phone is a safety hazard.  Taking a cell phone is outlandish behavior that needs a bright boundary.  You could tell her that you'll leave for an hour, and when you return, she'll have to give you the cell phone outside before you come inside.  If she doesn't, leave for two hours.  If she misses the second try, go to the police station and ask for officers to come help you retrieve your cell phone.  If this is laid out in advance, she will almost certainly want to avoid the police call.

Unplugging the computer -- She is doing this to get attention.  Do not give her any positive or negative attention.  You might tell her calmly that you're going for a walk for 20 minutes, or take 20 minutes in the safe room.  This will give you time to calm down.  When you come back, let her know the next breakpoint in your work when you can be with her (and if you really have three hours of work, so be it).  After returning from the walk, don't address any of her issues until you have hit a reasonable break point in your work (when you would have stopped if she'd asked politely -- so you're neither rewarding or punishing her).

How do those approaches sound?

WW

[ziasquinn3000]

I apologize for taking so long to respond WW. Your support and help has meant the world to me since I started posting and I really appreciate it!

Thank you for chiming in raiano18! I'm really sorry you're going through such a difficult situation. I've been through the same motions at the beginning of our relationship after the love-bomb/mirror phase ended. You are not alone!

These all sound great. My therapist suggested though that the bathroom part is ok and I should go to the bathroom during the trapping. She said I should take the approach of that "it doesn't bother me" and once my wife learns that she will probably stop.

Overall it's been ok these past couple weeks. The extreme behaviours are still there though none of them have been the main issues, just general bad attitude-ness and severe entitlement and I just have to be persistent. I've been taking the approach of this and not just for work related stuff, but all things "After returning from the walk, don't address any of her issues until you have hit a reasonable break point - when you would have stopped if she'd asked politely -- so you're neither rewarding or punishing her" and I make sure to very clearly express my appreciation and proudness of her when she can be respectful and considerate like that and make sure she knows because of that it makes me very engaging. I have been practicing a lot of words of affirmation lately and expressing how proud I am of her even though they are small tasks or things she accomplishes in my eyes.

I have run into a new big problem tho. I've had to navigate it twice now. She won't let me go to bed and sprawls out on the bed and refuses. Last night basically what happened was she
got upset I didn't immediately spend time with her when she got home. I texted her before she got home I was working on putting together my portfolio (I've been considering a new job). I used my skills to re-regulate her and then gave her what she wanted by hanging out with her then she raised her voice at me (I don't remember about what, and this is what I mean by entitled, I gave her exactly what she wanted and she has a pissy attitude and no gratitude) so I immediately went to bathroom and locked the door when she started yelling. After about 30 seconds she unlocked it and said she was sorry so I used opposite action and went back with her since she said she was sorry and I'm trying to focus on the present. Not sure I did the right thing, seems manipulative as she unlocked the door. I had to do it the other night and already explained to her to knock when I go to the bathroom (she did knock the other night and I expressed how awesome that was and I really appreciated it) so after this time I very clearly and specifically and reiterated that if she is kind and respectful and knocks on the door I will always gladly open the door to talk with her.

Later she asked me about my "emotional energy" and how it gets depleted as I told her when my emotional energy gets depleted that it's hard to give her everything she wants, such as when she came home earlier and wanting me to instantly shift to "wife time". I tell her it gets depleted lately because we have small quips or fights about practically everything. It was going ok at this point and then one thing leads to the next and she pulls out "I'm suicidal" so I calmly & urgently (to match the urgency of what that means even if she said it calmly) suggested that she call the prevention hotline. She started yelling at me saying "I'm not f*ing calling the hotline, blah blah" and I immediately grabbed my book and went into the bathroom because she was yelling at me which my therapist said I give way too many chances and that my wife already knows she shouldn't yell at me. I stayed in there for about 15 minutes and then used STOP and then went to the room to re-engage with her. To summarize she said I'm not allowed to sleep in the bed until I apologize and that I need to go sleep on the couch (I'm not even allowed to use the safe room we designated when she moved back in. She's said this several times now) So I tried listening to her and I told her I would be more than glad to apologize if I knew what it was for and asked if she could explain to me what I did and I told her I need your help in that way because I am pretty stupid and slow to this stuff (Whenever I've asked before in the past she will refuse to tell because obviously I have nothing to apologize for and she'll default to "I'm not your mother, you know what you did" That didn't work and I kept trying to validate and that didn't work and I keep expressing my openness to effectively work through this. Nothing was working so I left. I came back about 20 minutes later and decided to go in and just hug her and tell her I love her and otherwise be quiet. It almost worked (I tried this because physical touch is a big deal to my wife). Then she got back onto the I need to apologize train and then she added on that I was being disrespectful of her by not going and sleeping downstairs (projection, she continues to swear and be mean). I also tried many ways to see if we could re-engage this tomorrow since we both need sleep and it was an emotional vulnerability we were both experiencing. I also reminded her that I hurt my hip and leg badly (over the weekend I did and made that clear to her every day as I would have to shift around when we were cuddling because it hurt so bad and she would question why) and that I would really appreciate sleeping on our bed.

I am radically accepting this. Mentally I am ok. I haven't lost control of my emotions in that way or been hysterical, hopeless etc. I am just venting to my support system (you WW LOL) and also wondering how to handle this new (old) pattern of not letting me sleep in the bed. I got through it last time and was able to sleep in bed as I mentioned this is the 2nd time since she's been back. It seems like sometimes no matter what you do or how well you do it things don't work out in that way. Sleeping in my bed is VERY important to me, it's one of the only ways I can actually get sleep (I've had sleep problems for years until I bought this bed) so I am wondering how I can end up sleeping in my bed when this occurs or if this is one of those sacrifices I'm gonna have to make in being with my wife. Hmmm. Any thoughts on how that's achievable?

 She asked me to lay in bed with her this morning when I came back into the room to get ready for work and I told her I couldn't I had to get ready for work and that I love her. She asked if I was mad with her I told her I'm not and that I love her and that right now I am hurting right now and need time to process things. I explained why I'm hurting, that the situation we went through and that I'm in physical pain from my hip and leg and I haven't gotten much sleep and then I ended with telling her I love her and I hope she has a nice day today.

[ziasquinn3000]

She messaged me during lunch, I'm bold letters. Am I being too open and not giving myself time to heal enough and am I repressing feelings when I say I wasn't that hurt? Or am I just changing myself and becoming a better person? Hmmmm. -

Listen. I’m sorry for what I did last night. I was incredibly hurt and frustrated and I still feel like you never took responsibility for your actions. That’s why I had to stick to my guns with it. I felt like you were trying to sweet talk me to get out of owning up to your actions. Like you were superior to me and didn’t need consequences. It really hurt me.
thank you for apologizing. i realize how hurt you were and how you think i am not taking responsibility for my actions. i would do the same thing in your shoes so that totally makes sense. i can see how it looked like i was trying to sweet talk you. i was practicing opposite action by going into the room and hugging you and telling you i love you. i wish it didn't come off across that way as i would feel very hurt by that too
It kinda just hurts a LOT that you refused to and continue to refuse to apologize for anything
But thank you for validating and explaining
you're welcome. i hope you feel better
And you are kinda still ignoring it
hmm, i recognize you are hurt by it and i am wishing you feel better through that hurt. that isn't ignoring it is it? please correct me if i'm wrong, you know me, i take a bit extra to learn
You’ve acknowledged everything but the biggest part
I’m saying you are refusing to apologize
Maybe you can explain that.
sure, i will try to the best of my ability. i really appreciate your patience, i know how hard this is for you especially because you are still hurting! that is very impressive to be able to talk to me about it
I’m trying really hard. Thank you for validating that
no problem
Are you going to explain it? Typing?
i will be more than willing and glad to apologize for something if you could better explain to me what i did that i should apologize for. can you give me an example of what i should apologize for and why? like i apologized for contributing to the initial small fight we had, as it takes 2 people to fight. i will recognize and apologize for that. i can see your point of view and your perspective and i'm so sorry you have to feel that way that i refuse to apologize. i think that you are hurting so much you might be looking for a way to redirect your hurt through me apologizing. i don't think that will help in the long term. i think you don't want to feel so much hurt tho. is there a way i can help to make you feel less hurt?
By apologizing for leaving me
I reached out for help and support in a serious time of need and you straight up left me immediately
AND
for not respecting me asking you to leave me alone after that! When you asked me to sleep downstairs I didn’t keep you awake for another hour trying to stay in the room. It was major disrespectful
yes you did reach out for help and i am very proud of you for doing that. that takes a lot of strength! i can see how hard it would be to be able to do that. i did not leave you immediately. i only left when there was yelling.
i care about you so so much. i'm sorry you feel so hurt by your husband who you think doesn't respect you. that must feel awful to not be able to rely on your husband in that way. i was receiving mixed messages because it seemed like the conversation was still open since you kept talking to me. i'm sorry if my mind read was not accurate.
I asked you to leave me alone. I said the conversation was over several times. You persisted.
you are correct. through persistence i hope to achieve a healthy relationship with you. i am truly sorry if that was the wrong time to be persistent.
Persisted disrespectfully against my direct requests
i am truly sorry that was the wrong time for me to be persistent
Thank you
you're welcome. thank you for having this effective conversation with me. i know how hard you are trying right now, it's very very obvious
You’re welcome
How do you feel toward me right now?
hopeful. how do you feel toward me right now?
Thankful

[Radcliff]

Wow, that's a lot of texting.  But it seems like it was successful.  Are you typically more successful talking in person, or does texting help?

Did I read correctly that you said if you were in her shoes you would have done the same thing (kicking your spouse out of the bedroom)?

Is the "safe room" a comfortable place for your to sleep?  Is she going to physically block you from using it?  Why do you have to listen to her if she tells you not to go there?  Could a consequence if she continues blocking you from using your mattress be that you buy a special mattress of the same type for another room of the house?

WW

[ziasquinn3000]

I can see how that would be a lot of texting for most people, unfortunately it isn't for us. We can write bibles to each other, especially during conflicts. Texting does help. We text a lot, well not text but facebook messenger, I have an app on my work and home computer I have on the side and we can talk a lot via text. I would say it's half and half for success for in person vs. texting. In person it's harder because she knows she can get away with BS (tho I am gradually showing her that is not the case and also reinforcing positive behaviour!) and in text it's harder because she can't see how genuinely concerned or caring I am for her.

Ha, maybe I validated too hard on that line "I would do the same thing"... .Hmm... .I think I meant to say I would "feel or think the same way". When I said it I believe I was trying to confirm I would feel hurt if my wife was being disrespectful and hurting me and etc. from my perspective, because from her perspective that's what I was doing, even tho clearly I was not. Though I guess that is not even true about doing the same thing as I continue to hold my composure each high conflict encounter where she becomes belligerent and disrespectful and inconsiderate, etc... Lesson learned, thanks for pointing that out. I will be more careful with the validation.

No, it's not a comfortable place for me to sleep, I actually did go into the room even though she said not to (she didn't know that I did tho our room door was shut) and it was less comfortable than the couch as there's a blowup bed in there right now. That's why I decided "no way am I not sleeping in my bed, it's too important to me" AND "I will continue to do the best that I can in the face of this adversity" used my skills, focused on effectively getting through this and went back in and hugged her and it almost worked. Good point tho, I don't have to listen to her with that and I'm glad I didn't. I do re-iterate to her each time that we made an agreement that the safe room is for both of us even though she says "I never made that agreement!" I am not dropping a few grand on another mattress. We already agreed we should both be able to sleep in the bed. This is where I'm going to call BS on her, she is more than capable of going to bed while I am still in the bed and vice versa. I refuse to buy another mattress, I'm already bending over backwards in every other aspect of our life.

The same fiasco happened again last night because I was having a conversation with my friend and she said she wanted to go to bed. I continued to practice what I preach and expressed I really want to be respectful and considerate of my friend I'm talking to, I will wrap up the conversation ASAP. She started to escalate and say she hurts so much and needs me to be with her, after a certain point I called her on her BS and I told her that. She didn't refute it however she did continue to escalate the antics so I told her I was going for a 15 minute walk, she said if I go don't come back into bed and sleep downstairs. I ignored and went. I came back exactly 15 minutes later and made it back in time for bedtime, got into bed and she still had that same energy. So as my therapist suggested I just focused on "I was really looking forward to sleep with you tonight and have a nice sleep with you" "It would be really nice to cuddle and fall asleep with you". That was working to the extent that she wasn't kicking me out of the bedroom. Eventually I just reminded her that we agreed if we get to a spot like this we can each just sleep on our sides of the bed and get some rest in, because at this point it started to go against my values of getting a full 8 hours of sleep so I was tapping out in a respectful and considerate way and going to sleep. An hour later she said she "missed me" and finally caved in and started warming up.

I refuse to fall into old patterns, on my end that is. I will not let her actions make me falter in my values! It seems like she's falling into her old patterns. It's hard to figure out where that line is of letting her get out of her patterns on her own and where I can help her. I guess me leading by example is where that line is and I continue to just do the best that I can! It's so exhausting tho! Really makes me question if she is worth it. I hope this extinction burst is simply just that... .but even then we've always had difficulties like this after the love-bomb/mirror phase.

[Radcliff]

Hang in there.  You're working hard at this, and are having success at maintaining your boundaries.  Good work going on the walk and making it back into bed.  Your ability to sleep in your own bed is important to defend.  Keep us posted.

It sounds like you're able to have a fair bit of dialogue with her about the relationship, and that validation goes both ways.  That's impressive and hopeful compared to many members' experiences.  Given your success there, and your remaining challenges, I think you might benefit from a book called, The High Conflict Couple.  Have you read it?

WW

[ziasquinn3000]

Thank you.

We do! And it's very productive as long as I bring positive energy into those conversations. It's hard and exhausting work and it seems like I can get what I want if I keep at it and lead by example.

I had a productive conversation with her yesterday. I let her know I would appreciate it if she would just sometimes say “ok” for my sake when she is able to instead of arguing. For example, I asked if she could have the window cracked on her side of the car to get rid of the helicopter noise as we had the back windows rolled down for the dogs. She wouldn’t and argued and said how it's so annoying and inconvenient for her to do that until I explained my hair was still wet (I have long hair) and didn’t want it messed up and that's when I brought the just sometimes say "ok". We turned it into a flirty conversation, whenever I can take a flirty approach things pan out really well! I used to do it this way in the past all the time and as time went on and more and more pwBPD behaviors surfaced and abuse that happened the more withdrawn I got and less prone I was to "being myself".

I will order this book. I have few chances to do much reading. Sounds like it could be very useful tho! Thanks for the suggestion.

[Radcliff]

I'm glad you're getting some traction!  Yes, in my case, with abuse I became withdrawn and I think it triggered my wife more.  The flirty approach sounds like it's working!  Keep us posted!

WW

[ziasquinn3000]

The wife on Saturday, I had to support and encourage her to continue going to her job until she starts her new job after we get back from Hawaii (we're supposed to leave tomorrow). She was having the hopeless thoughts, being too tired to work, she hates work! etc. etc. (none of these made sense and conflicted with her actions. She says she loves being with her friends there and she's been getting a lot of sleep, etc. I made sure to validate tho) I had a very successful effective communication on that Saturday and she ended up going. I made sure to really try to be compassionate and throw in the flirty stuff that works and it turned it from her saying "I can't go to work" to "I don't want to work" to her being comfortable and positive enough to go to work. Well Sunday morning she decided not to go to work and then she decided not to go at all ever again. Quit by no-show no-call. Her last day was supposed to be the 19th before she started her new dream job. I didn't react positively or negatively to this. I made sure to validate the valid and throw a little bit of "grow up" into it as being an adult you gotta do stuff that sucks sometimes, like working. Later in the day she brought up how she's not gonna be able to pay her bills again, I validated that and then she said I have to pay for all her bills and if I don't I'm basically "leaving her to die in the dirt" and I reminded her that I would only loan her $500, as that is what it would come to if she continued working her job as expected and when I told her I would front her the money I clearly explained why because she was doing such a great job at work and she was continuing to work helping herself and bringing in money. I let her know that while it sucks and she's in pain I'm not made out of money and in plenty of debt myself and can't just front her another $1200 if, as much as it sucks, she was able to still work. I did tell her if she continued to go to work I would very happily make up any difference of money she needed to pay her bills since she was still working which again should only be about $500. She started escalating so I told her I'm going to the bathroom to read and we can continue the conversation later when it's more calm. She followed me in and I told her that I'm going to go for a walk so I can collect myself and my thoughts so we can continue the conversation when I get back. I reiterated that *I* needed support and I needed to go calm myself, not her of course. I tried for about 10 minutes to get out through skills and I did warn her that trapping me like she was doing is kidnapping and I will call the police if she doesn't let me out. Then I pulled my phone out to record which triggered her more and she started striking me repeatedly so I called 911. She's in jail now because of our state law as it was very clear I'm the victim.

Now I don't know when or if she'll be going on bond, how much that will be and our flight leaves tomorrow morning for our week long vacation, that is non-refundable and I already have time off for work for. The officer said it should probably be the next day (today), so that might pan out. I'm respecting my emotions regarding the situation and trying to figure out a way to move forward from this. For example if she gets out today I'm ready to continue our vacation. I wonder what things need to be done or put into place because of this tho. I think continuing on as we have, especially with having all the support and skills being learnt through our multiple resources will be the right move for the long term. I'm pretty sure she now knows she can't pull this stuff off again because I finally went through with it and I also clearly told her that I would call the police, so my words will start to have weight to them now.

I'm fine myself, physically and mentally. Intuitively radically accepting I guess. I've been syncing up with the RO-DBT therapist and my own therapist as well as her mom. I meet with my therapist today, I'm going to go over how to healthily/safely/let's not have this happen again in the future move forward. My wife has called me a couple times to apologize. I made sure to give her a hug and support her before they took her away, to let her know she's not being abandoned basically. I was very careful not to do something like "oh i'm so sorry they're taking you away! I love you more than anything!" codependent stuff. Keeping my eye on the road forward.

[Radcliff]

I am deeply sorry that we lost track of your thread, especially when you had such a traumatic event.  That must have been tremendously difficult holding that boundary and calling the police.  It actually protects you both to put a stop to that behavior, though.  I'm sorry to hear that it came so close to your vacation.  Can you give us an update? 

WW