Forgiveness, recovery, and none of the above. I can't re-engage, or fix it.

[SamwizeGamgee]

Greetings,
Bits of  my story are strewn about on the boards here.  In a nutshell, Married 21+ years to uBPDw - with hermit and waif tendencies.  We're living together still, in separate bedrooms.  She's mostly high-functioning these days - especially over the past year or so.  I've noticed the more good behavior and tools I use, the better she gets.  Five kids, three left at home.  My D17 left for college over the weekend.  She has fully cast me off.  I'm blocked from everything of hers.  Getting ST from D17 since Spring last year.  She's still conversant with her mom, and they seem close. 
Here's a past post about it I made in a comment.
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=325263.msg12968739#msg12968739

On an overall, I have been surviving, not thriving.  I felt something following on this post.
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=328372.msg12995270#msg12995270
Skip recommended I take it up separately.

In this one, Woodchuck is apparently being flogged regularly by an unforgiving wife over the issue of a past divorce. 
It made me contemplate my own situation (as I mentioned in the above thread).  I feel that I am only seasonally forgiven for whatever my BPDw feels I did in the past - and a lot of dynamic blame and accusations from uBPDw were overheard by, and then influenced D17, and, I believe, contributed to D17's alienation of me.  If I said it appeared that D17 was brainwashed, I think several observers might agree. 
 
This idea has been hard for me to handle.  I have been haunted for years with the idea that "last year would have been better to get a divorce."  So much damage is done.  Meanwhile, as my wife now is on better behavior, the "smoking gun" motivation for me to divorce is greatly diminished.  I have made several proverbial lines in the sand that will push me right to filing divorce - one of which is a pattern of verbal abuse like I got in the good old days.  Meanwhile, I remain married.  Married for simple child care.  Married to keep peace.  Married to avert future parental alienation.  Married because I like my regular full-sized paycheck.  Married because I can spend all the time I want with my kids - without a court order.

Concerning forgiveness, I am not sure I'll get forgiven by my wife.  Maybe D17 will never forgive me either, if she takes after mom.  Nevertheless, I think of myself as not a person to carry a grudge.  I think I am a person who forgives freely, and frequently, and unilaterally.   I want to think I can forgive and forget being a victim of verbal and emotional abuse.  I want to try. 

Incidentally, I had to really learn, and worked a long time understanding, that I even was a victim of abuse.  That revelation only took hold in 2015.  And these days, with uBPDw on excellent behavior - no one would know or suspect that she could ever be an "abuser."  Likewise, with D17, she is such a stellar kid - to everyone else.  I've been living with the mom and daughter Dr. Jekyll duo. 
 
Concerning forgiveness, I don't think I am withholding forgiveness from my wife.  I want to forgive her, for any and all wrongs.  I want to recover, heal, and live healthy forward from here.  With or without her in my house, I don't want to carry a burden of being unforgiving.  I am aware that I am not intentionally not-forgiving.  However, I find that I just can't get "it" back.  If "it" was a marriage.  I can't recover trust in my wife.  Without trust, and my internal memory of fear of my wife, I can't have intimacy.  No intimacy, no love.  At best, we cohabit the house in outward calm. 

I can't say that I really want to spark up a relationship with her.  I don't find her really attractive. I don't admire her child care skills, or her personality (after seeing the whole range).  Food and money aren't worth it.  Sex was never good enough to want to get back.  If I feel anything when she's around, it's what I'm able to identify as PTSD symptoms.

Even if I can get to point where I forgive, and forget, I can't see that I'd want to re engage.  I learned some hard lessons.  I suffered damage.  I can change me, I can't change my abuser(s).  So, I think I have to keep this distance and apparently not forgive and forget. 

How do you feel about forgiving?
Should I forgive, is there something to forgive anymore? (I think I still need to forgive my wife for being emotionally abusive, but, it's not clear to me).
How have you moved towards a better healthy you?
Can one re-engage and heal with their abuser?

Extra credit - It makes me mad when my wife declares that she has forgiven me.  For what? 
And forgiving me for being me in the past makes the full circuit of projecting, transferring, blaming, and then setting herself up to be the pious, benevolent, long-suffering wife who forgave me after so long.   Again, for what?  Stuff she imagined and projected in the first place.  Ugh!

[mama-wolf]

Hi Samwize... .several things from your post jumped out at me, and a few resonated pretty strongly.  I'll offer what I can... .

On an overall, I have been surviving, not thriving. 

It sounds like you have achieved a place of tolerable "peace" in spite of some difficult treatment from your D17 and periodic flare-ups with your uBPDw.  Your posts mention D17 a lot (understandably so)... .but how are things with your other kids?  I take it similar alienation is taking place with them, but to what degree of success?

No one here can tell you what you should do, of course.  Only you can evaluate the risks to your paycheck, your custody options, etc... .and to your health!... .hopefully with the help of some professionals (therapist, lawyer... .).  It really does all boil down to what you want, what you think you can realistically expect to attain, and what you are able to tolerate.

For me, I came to the realization that not only was my marriage slowly killing me, it was also gradually deteriorating my ability to be the kind of parent I wanted to be with my kids.  They were constantly seeing me subjected to my uBPDw's criticism (no matter how veiled or obscured by sarcastic humor).  What they experienced was my gradually increasing irritability and short temper when I was with them.  And once I finally became emotionally burnt out, I realized that would be even worse for the kids to see and experience.

So, I only have my kids 50% of the time, and I really wish I could have them more.  They experience far too much of my stbx's emotional volatility, impulsiveness, and short temper than I would like when they are with her and I'm not there to mitigate things... .but they also experience the total absence of that for the time that they are with me.  I can be a better parent with them, and they can see me and my actions without any filter imposed by my stbx's presence or verbal lashings.  And sure, my paycheck is smaller now because of child support... .but now that she's out of my finances entirely, I have managed to stop the bleeding of all her other spending that was already choking our budget.  For child care, she's responsible for her half, and I'm responsible for mine... .and if I need help during a time that the kids are with me, I'm extremely fortunate to have support from my family.  And for the times that I'm not with my kids, I'm gradually recovering the parts of myself that I lost when I was with her, rebuilding the parts that she managed to destroy, and trying to become the person I always wanted to be.

Incidentally, I had to really learn, and worked a long time understanding, that I even was a victim of abuse. 

I'm only starting to accept the possibility of this on my end.  I haven't quite turned that corner, but I see it up ahead (far off in the distance), and I wonder if I might actually get there at some point.  I think this part is especially difficult for those of us with a high-functioning pwBPD.   It's so much easier to doubt our own perceptions and experiences than to really take hold of that truth that we have actually been mistreated and abused... .for a really long time.

How do you feel about forgiving?
Should I forgive, is there something to forgive anymore? (I think I still need to forgive my wife for being emotionally abusive, but, it's not clear to me).
How have you moved towards a better healthy you?
Can one re-engage and heal with their abuser?

I gave this same advice to another member when she brought this topic up a few months go... .Try to separate the concept of forgiveness from the status of your relationship.  Forgiveness does not necessarily mean you would stay together or even close the distance that has grown between you.  As far as I am concerned, forgiveness is about letting go of all the anger associated with her actions.  Whether that leads to a reconciliation or not is a totally separate issue.  I lost my trust in my uBPDw, and in spite of repeated requests and opportunities for her to work on rebuilding it, she never made the effort.  So of course intimacy became out of the question... .love had died.

Personally, I haven't quite finished (or even started?) processing that anger, so that makes it pretty hard to think about forgiveness at this point.  But ultimately, forgiveness is for us, the receiver of abuse and poor treatment.  Not for them.  It's so that the pain and anger cannot drag us down anymore and we can move on to build a new life, seek new sources of happiness and fulfillment that are not shaded or distorted by that part of our past.

So, I keep trying to practice self-care in one way or another each day.  I try to listen to and honor my needs... .finally.  I know it's going to take me a long time to work through and heal the damage I have suffered.  Once I finally do... .maybe then I'll be able to forgive my ex.  Doesn't mean I have to spiteful, angry, or nasty to her now (and I'm not), but I also don't have to be anything more than polite, firm, and reasonable as it relates to our shared custody of the two kids.

How are you taking care of yourself through all of this?  Mentally, physically, spiritually, emotionally... .any of the above?  And... .what do you want?  Know that whatever you decide to reach for, you have support here.

Extra credit - It makes me mad when my wife declares that she has forgiven me.  For what? 
And forgiving me for being me in the past makes the full circuit of projecting, transferring, blaming, and then setting herself up to be the pious, benevolent, long-suffering wife who forgave me after so long.   Again, for what?  Stuff she imagined and projected in the first place.  Ugh!

I am so with you here.  We actually haven't reached that place yet, where she tells me she forgives me in that superior way of hers.  But I know it's coming, and I'm already mad about it.  It will be exactly as you described... .she was the long-suffering wife who "waited so long" for me to become more emotionally available, blah, blah, blah.  She was the victim, was abandoned and left out in the cold to support herself and our children (false).  But oh, she forgives me finally, after taking who knows how long to heal from such terrible damage that I did to her... .it's coming.

Hang in there and be sure you are taking care of yourself!

mw

[SamwizeGamgee]

HI MamaWolf - I think D17 is most on my mind since her leaving is fresh.  Most of what led to her alienation was thing she overheard during uBPDw rages a few years ago - things that never should be said, and never ever overheard by an impressionable, sensitive 15 yo.  After those episodes, everything became a self-fulfilling prophecy with my wife, probably unconsciously, blaming, projecting, and transferring her daddy- issues (he was very verbally abusive to his family).   The other kids are surviving also. My wife is on better behavior and that shields them from the full-throttle poison / alienating powers.  S13 is somewhat autistic, though functioning in school.  He has very low emotional regulation abilities and high anxieties - and pretty much what we could predict with a borderline mom.  D11 and D8 are very much daddy's girls.  I make sure to be stable and do a great deal of the morning routine, all the bedtimes, and whatever activities and dad stuff I can.  I hope that general good parenting can vaccinate them against brainwashing and alienation.  My oldest, D19 is amazingly well off.  She seems to be resilient, healthy, and happy (and left to college and stayed there two years ago).  I do miss her, but, good for her.  We are on very good terms and still connected. 

As for what I want, that takes some thinking.  One on hand, I think I should just accept my lot in life.  Forgive, forget, as the thread topic asks.  My wife has improved, has mostly good days, even wants to do things like cook and periodically is interested in sex.  Big improvements from three, five, ten, and 20 years ago.  I am certain that my being able to manage her BPD, using the coping tools, and being healthier myself has helped a lot with her apparent recovery.  So, I should just take it and go with it.  At times, I can actually foresee just staying married with an attitude of this being as good as it gets.  And this is where my thread begins talking about forgiveness and putting it back together.  Logically, and spiritually, I "should" forgive and get back into the game.

However, I find that I am emotionally exhausted.  I first heard it from Tony Robbins that the opposite of love isn't hate, it's apathy.  That's mostly where I am, apathy towards my wife.  And I can't regenerate loving feelings.  I have reached the point of saying "enough" and yet I stay.  Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me - kind of thing.  I can't go back into a trusting intimate relationship now that I've seen the horrors from inside.

My inner voice is revealed best when I listen to my feelings and my body.  When I am coming home knowing she's not home, I am happy and excited.  My home is my castle.  When I know she is around, I'm skittish or gloomy, and mildly dreading accidentally seeing her in the house.  That's a pretty clear sign to me.  Walking in the door knowing she's there puts me through my pre-game mindset, where I start paying attention to her place, her mood, filtering what I say and do, what it will cause. And so forth.

I have learned to block any optimistic thoughts about life after the marriage is over.  But, every once in a while, I let slip a smile thinking about being in a good adult relationship one day, or at peace at home.  I only vaguely remember what it feels like to have romantic feelings, or feelings of attraction towards someone - and those are relics from previous relationships.

I am at the stage also that after legal and financial considerations, the facts say just stay married.  Cheaper to keep her.  I think I'll never convince anyone she's an abuser.  Not that I need to convince anyone.  Few people have any idea.  If I can find a male family court judge who also went through an ordeal in which he broke free of a BPD wife, and saw the hidden wreckage, that would be my best shot at a divorce. ;) Schools, child care, financial, insurance, retirement, custody, paycheck... .all say to stay married.  But, I can't fathom that.  Sadly my mantra these days is that  my body is married, my spirit is free, and my heart is dead.


"So, I keep trying to practice self-care in one way or another each day.  I try to listen to and honor my needs... .finally.  I know it's going to take me a long time to work through and heal the damage I have suffered.  Once I finally do... .maybe then I'll be able to forgive my ex.  Doesn't mean I have to spiteful, angry, or nasty to her now (and I'm not), but I also don't have to be anything more than polite, firm, and reasonable as it relates to our shared custody of the two kids.

How are you taking care of yourself through all of this?  Mentally, physically, spiritually, emotionally... .any of the above?  And... .what do you want?  Know that whatever you decide to reach for, you have support here. "

Yes, I know!    I just keep putting off self-care.  I listen to everyone's feelings now, and validate and support - except for me, I think. I put my feelings away and go ahead with the expected role of husband.   I do things that are self-care.  I run, meditate, get good time with the kids, I have hobbies, and have my own spending money.  I take care of my eating and rest.  I've been in a separate bedroom for over three years.  Sleep is much better.  C-PTSD type symptoms are down*.  I think I live a pretty self-caring life, but not on the deepest level, where I long to be free of uBPDw.




* I've just started exploring C-PTSD as it applies to me.  I keep passing standard questions about PTSD, so I've denied looking further.  But, as I am opening my thinking to C-PTSD as a result of long-term relationships things are getting interesting. more to follow I'm sure.

[mama-wolf]

Based on all that you have said, it sounds like this thread may get better responses and interaction on the Conflicted board... .what do you think?

It's a terrible place to be in to feel like you have to sacrifice your own health and happiness to maintain a situation that leaves you feeling dead inside.  I was there and I chose to get out,  but that's not for everyone.

Keep taking care of yourself and maintaining the strength to get through whatever the future brings!

mw

[SamwizeGamgee]

The Conflicted board is my usual hang-out.  (Technically the "Just Tolerating It" fits my status).
I think what I'm doing here, aside from Skip's recommendation, is working on closure and detaching. Forgiving (or not) and how to do it, is the crux of my thread.  In spite of all the logical reasons to stay married, I'm exploring the end.  I am starting to look at my life as I hear some of the greatest life choices were made.  What I'm contemplating flies in the face of reason, solid advice, and the norms of behavior.  I may be crazy thinking about divorce, but I would be finally honest.

My D17's departure is a poignant reminder of what my wife can do, right under my nose.  I don't desire to stay unhappy, and trapped in marriage if she can alienate them right away from me, in my own house, with no recourse or a safe-haven (that I could create once fully separated).

[BeagleGirl]

Samwize,
I'm glad you posted this.  I remember your story from your earlier postings.  I'm glad to hear that your wife's behaviors have improved and things are stabilizing but totally understand how that can make it even harder to process your feelings and make decisions on how to move forward. 

I started to refer to the day(s) after a big dysregulation/conflict period as my "emotional hangover" day(s).  Things on the outside were good, even great.  dBPDxh was happy and kind and attentive.  I was reserved and skittish and exhausted.  It sounds like you are going through something similar on a much bigger scale.  For years I struggled with feelings of guilt for not being able to "get over it".  I wondered if I was pouting or trying to punish dBPDxh.  I worried that I was holding onto unforgiveness. 

I did a lot of studying on the concepts of forgiveness, repentance, and grace last summer/fall.  One of the things that dawned on me was what mama-wolf mentioned - Forgiveness and reconciliation are not always linked.  Forgiveness can happen without reconciliation, but true reconciliation can't happen without forgiveness.  The other key ingredient to reconciliation is repentance.  When you reconcile without repentance you end up offering what Dietrich Bonhoeffer referred to as "cheap grace" and you set up an environment where abuse can continue to run rampant. 

For me, this realization led to me distancing myself from dBPDxh and watching for the signs of true repentance.  What I saw was a slight shift in behavior but continued abuse and justification of that abuse.  I could forgive him for his actions, but I couldn't reconcile with him until the justification stopped.  Anything he could justify, he was bound to repeat.  As I see it today, dBPDxh tested my resolve to not reconcile without repentance many times and eventually decided that I was not going to yield.  I had hoped that would be the impetus for him to repent.  Instead, he chose to move on to a new relationship. 

As mama-wolf said, nobody can tell you what you should do.  I definitely don't want to imply that I got out of my marriage so you should to.  This has been an incredibly painful process for me and so many people that I love.  I don't think I could ever "advise" divorce. 

I have a few questions:
-Your wife's behavior has changed.  Do you feel that the abuse is ended, or has it just become more covert? 
-You feel like the change is largely because of your use of tools and coping mechanisms.  Do you think that if you start to "slip" your wife's behaviors will revert? 
-You feel apathy and like your heart is dead.  Do you feel like that is something that could change over time?  Do you want it to, or does that feel too risky?

I started a topic on unpacking/healing from emotional abuse over on the Learning board.  It sounds like you Samwizegamgee and mama-wolf) have done some work in that area.  I'd love to have you join the conversation.
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=328713.new#new

BeagleGirl

[XSurvivorX]

How do you feel about forgiving?

Samwize,

First of all, so sorry to hear that you've had this tough road to hoe.  For people who never have lived and experienced it, it certainly is an experience in and of itself.  But I wanted to address your simple question from above; from my perspective and in my situation, the first person that I had to learn to forgive was myself.

I held onto a lot of anger associated with everything that my ex pwBPD did, the downfall of the marriage and the complete upheaval of every aspect of my life (my health, my retirement savings, my financial stability, credit rating, and my own emotional well-being).  For a while I was mad at her, naturally.  But as time went on, I realized that she was the one who was very ill, and though it felt like she could, she honestly couldn't help herself.  It was how she had become hardwired to be.  She had been that way before, and for all I know she still is.  I was her first husband, but probably her 15th failed serious/semi-serious relationship. (note: I thought marriage would fix the problem before I actually had a solid understanding of the problem)

So then I turned to being very angry with myself.  I was going through the divorce, I was barely paying my rent and bills, living in a 1br efficiency straight out of the 1970s'.  I lost about 20 bounds which seems great on the pretense, but in reality I was getting sick often and for long periods of time.  My mind and body suffered along with my soul from this relationship.  And the more I looked at where I was, the easier it was to be angry with myself.  After all, I had become a willing participant in this BPD pantomime.  The relationship was built on falsehoods and mislead facts ( I won't say "lies").  Who she was was not who she purported to be.  So even after I realized that I had made a huge mistake, I willingly continued (until I just could not any longer).

I would say that for me, forgiving myself made my own recovery and transformation possible.  You can call it what you like - forgiving myself for trying; forgiving myself for not leaving sooner or sticking to boundaries; forgiving myself for even getting involved with the woman in the first place! Whatever it was (maybe all of the above) I had to be ok with myself knowing that I made some mistakes, underwent an experience, and now needed to learn to move on.

One on hand, I think I should just accept my lot in life.

This really does make me feel sad.  I don't believe that there are necessarily good or bad people; to some extent each of us are both.  What I do believe though is that no one should have to feel like they are settling.  I settled. That was when I too felt that "welp, this just must be how this marriage and life thing goes."  Wrong.  You sir should not feel like you are cast or defined to any particular lot or fate.  While I certainly understand the reasons you have laid out about the fragile "peace" you've currently achieved, I would just caution you to remember that you too are a human, deserving of genuine happiness.  You can accept a lot, but don't feel like your situation can't get any better. 

I can't comment on what life would be like if you made a decision to stay or go either way - that isn't my place in life.  What I will simply say is this: Look into forgiving yourself (unless you have already done so, or don't think you really need to) - with that step taken, how you handle her, your family, and the rest of your life should be much easier.

All the best to you -

[teapay]

Alot of the discomfort you describe is internal to yourself and not primarily due to your W's current behavior.  She sounds like she has come along way and is much better for it.  You are still completely miserable, though, eventhough you've mentioned you've done an incredible amount of work on yourself.   You sound like you've resolved yourself to tough it out and be miserable until something externally changes.  What would that be?  All the kids out of the house?

[Lucky Jim]

Hey Sam, Why is forgiving your W important to you?  Why bother with this step?  I'm uncertain.

Can you see yourself reaching a point where you cut your losses and move on?

Presumably you are over here on the Detaching Board for a reason, right?

LuckyJim

[SamwizeGamgee]

... .
I started to refer to the day(s) after a big dysregulation/conflict period as my "emotional hangover" day(s).  Things on the outside were good, even great.  dBPDxh was happy and kind and attentive.  I was reserved and skittish and exhausted.  It sounds like you are going through something similar on a much bigger scale.  For years I struggled with feelings of guilt for not being able to "get over it".  I wondered if I was pouting or trying to punish dBPDxh.  I worried that I was holding onto unforgiveness. 

I did a lot of studying on the concepts of forgiveness, repentance, and grace last summer/fall.  One of the things that dawned on me was what mama-wolf mentioned - Forgiveness and reconciliation are not always linked.  Forgiveness can happen without reconciliation, but true reconciliation can't happen without forgiveness.  The other key ingredient to reconciliation is repentance.  When you reconcile without repentance you end up offering what Dietrich Bonhoeffer referred to as "cheap grace" and you set up an environment where abuse can continue to run rampant. 
... .

I have a few questions:
-Your wife's behavior has changed.  Do you feel that the abuse is ended, or has it just become more covert? 
-You feel like the change is largely because of your use of tools and coping mechanisms.  Do you think that if you start to "slip" your wife's behaviors will revert? 
-You feel apathy and like your heart is dead.  Do you feel like that is something that could change over time?  Do you want it to, or does that feel too risky?
...

BeagleGirl

BG, excellent insight.  Thanks. I read up on your thread on unpacking. I'm still pondering it.  Thanks for idea of forgiveness and reconciliation.  I am testing out my feelings about forgiveness.  Maybe that will make living together easier.  But as far as reconciliation, at the time, I can't think of a point I'd like to get back to, a reconciliation sounds to me like fixing and repairing, but, I don't have a desire to go back to any point in the past.  Metaphorically, I can make peace with, and respect a rattlesnake, but can't be friends.
So, you questions.  My wife has changed - because I've gotten better.  When there's not as many triggers, there's more peace.  I have a evil thought in the back of my head to try acting bad, hitting the triggers (confrontation, abandonment, controlling... .) and sort of kick up a rage again.  "One more good rage" and false blame episode is one on my lines in the sand.  Cross it, and I'm making a retainer with my selected divorce attorney.
She has also started working more and started her business, which she did on her own, and has given her a huge swell of "growing up" and made her better.  That should have happened long ago.  So, good for her.   Nevertheless, I thing there's a forever abyss inside of her.  She can't help projecting and blaming, and, with what I believe she has sun subliminally by brainwashing D17 tells me there's no full redemption for uBPDw, or  our marriage. 
That goes to your last question, about what could change.  Could I get to point where I loved her, where my stories are like those patient and well blessed people on the "Staying" board?
I can't see that.  There's a permanent shadow over our relationship.  Maybe that's why I'm talking about forgiveness.
I don't know if I want to love her.  My feelings don't seem to think so.

XsurvivorX - I am still mad at myself.  I'm trying work work that out.  I forgive myself for getting married.  Honest mistake, missed the flags, didn't know what I was getting into, made assumptions.  Okay, marriage can be a mistake.  Where I am quite mad at myself is for muting, blinding, and ignoring my unhappiness for the following decades.  I wanted out right away.  I spent countless nights praying to God, or wishing (which is a powerless emotion in my view) that I could undo just one decision, one mistake.  Please.
I'm still working on that hurdle.  Every anniversary feels dark inside. I can't "celebrate" anymore.  One more year, one more scratch on the wall.  And then I have to forgive myself for giving my kids a mom who will affect and influence their life.  All the while looking to the world like supermom.  What confusion for the kids.  Supermom and her alter-ego.    All my fault for bringing them into life here.
Thanks for your encouragement.  I maybe should look after myself better.

Teapay - you shine a good light on this. My mindset right now is probably to tough it out.  I have caught myself saying that with no kids at home, I'd be gone in 60 seconds.  Maybe that's just tough-guy banter, but, when I go home I do believe I only step foot inside to be with the kids.

LJ - Why forgive?  I think it goes down to my religious / moral foundations.  I feel a Christian duty to forgive.  Personally, I just believe that it will make my load easier if I forgive others in general.  Maybe if she's done something I need to forgive, then I should.   I also like the Buddhist idea of letting go.  I don't want to hold onto to unfinished business. 

I've been thinking about your question, and it also occurs to me that I think forgiving her (if needed, and if I can) is a requirement on my mental and emotional checklist.  I want to know that it's not just my failing to forgive that is poisoning the marriage.  I'm questioning whether if I took steps to do something, like forgive and move on, would my marriage have that last hurdle removed?   Can our improvements individually be combined into making a healthy marriage? 
I'm sort of wondering if I have weathered the storm, and happy (livable) marriage is just waiting on me to get my act together.  So, in a way, this discussion on forgiveness is me cleaning my closet.

Every year that goes by looks like I have passed a good (better) time to cut my losses.   I've turned inward and make my own happiness, maybe I've emotionally moved on, but, that doens't help eveyone's health and well-being. 

[Lucky Jim]

I'm sort of wondering if I have weathered the storm, and happy (livable) marriage is just waiting on me to get my act together.  So, in a way, this discussion on forgiveness is me cleaning my closet.

Hey Sam,  I believed that I could reach a plateau of relative stability in my marriage to my BPDxW, which proved to be a mirage that I could never attain.  So I would caution you about wondering if a happy marriage is right around the corner, after you weather the next storm that is bound to recur.

Forgiveness sounds like an important step for you, so I say go for it, by all means.

LJ

[BeagleGirl]

I am still mad at myself.  I'm trying work work that out.  I forgive myself for getting married.  Honest mistake, missed the flags, didn't know what I was getting into, made assumptions.  Okay, marriage can be a mistake.  Where I am quite mad at myself is for muting, blinding, and ignoring my unhappiness for the following decades.  I wanted out right away.  I spent countless nights praying to God, or wishing (which is a powerless emotion in my view) that I could undo just one decision, one mistake.  Please.

Samwize,
Oh boy have I been there!  Actually, I've now been there on both sides of the stay/divorce side of the equation.  I have had the excruciating nights when I berated myself both for staying with dBPDxh and burdening them with a screwed up view of what a man/husband/father should be AND for breaking up their family and giving them the burden of being from a "broken home". 

If you're following the "Unpacking" topic, you'll know that I've been working to reframe my story.  What I'm finding is that a lot of my pain is around my sense of failure and fear that I've lost the love of others by not being enough.  I have the support of some amazing friends and a really good T.  They've been telling me for a long time that I need to apply the same level of grace to myself that I willingly grant to others.  I tried, but it quickly became yet another task that I was failing at.  But  this week... .well, this week I have finally started to make progress and I can tell you that it's the most painful yet freeing process I've ever been through. 

I'm reading "Gifts of Imperfection" by Brene Brown and listening to YouTube videos by Patrick Doyle (the counselor, not the musician).  Have you had any exposure to either of them?
BG

[Red5]

Sadly my mantra these days is that  my body is married, my spirit is free, and my heart is dead.

Evening Sam,

What you wrote above... .that’s where I’m at tonight... .

I’m tired Man.

Kind Regards, Red5

[SamwizeGamgee]

Thanks everyone for the support.
LJ - I think that I believe forgiveness is important, and I think I could be more clear, in my own mind, if I knew I wasn't forgiving of something. But right now, nothing seems to be sticking out.
I think I want to clear any chance that there's something I have done, or something I should do that would either fix the marriage, or un-stick the frozen state of affairs.   And, you're right.  I can do heroics to keep a mostly-calm environment up at home, but, there's my apparently permanent unhappiness in marriage, and the ever-present eggshell wife. 
And, as you pointed out previously, I am on the Detaching board for a reason.

Red 5 - and we carry on.  Together in the trenches so to speak. 

BG - Yes! I read "Gifts of Imperfection."  I found it to be an excellent counsel.  I think I read it about a year after it would have had the most positive impact.  I had worked out some of the same problems before reading it.  But, it is such a good book.  I hope to re-read it soon.  I am falling behind my self-help reading list.  --darn "real life with kids" takes up so much time ;)

[Lucky Jim]

Hey Sam,

I had an interesting discussion w/my T several years ago, before my divorce.  She asked me, "Do you think you've done all you can to save your marriage?"  I said, "Yes, I do."  She said, "I think so, too."  That was a lightbulb moment for me because she rarely, if ever, shared her personal views.

I guess what I'm saying is that most Nons who detach have to reach a point where, like me, one can say, Yes, I tried everything.  That point, of course, differs from person to person.

Maybe you haven't reached that point yet, which is OK.

LJ

[SamwizeGamgee]

I'll have to spend some time searching on that.  I don't feel I'm being a great husband at the moment, or even very good.  Though before "enlightenment," I was jumping through every hoop possible (and taking blame, fault, projections, accusations, abuse, along the way).  It's as though now I just can't re-engage (and looping that idea back to my thread title).
Like I don't want to exert any more.  Maybe I've dialed past that point?

[SamwizeGamgee]

The ideas in this thread have remained with me for a while longer.
I am understanding now that forgiveness is not my issue.  Rather, can I re-establish a relationship?
I had associated not moving forward with not forgiving - which is very bad in my belief set apparently.  So, I think I wanted to be sure to forgive.
I can't forgive my wife for being my wife - meaning not that I can't forgive, but, even if I get over past abuses, and the regret for staying married, I can't "forgive" someone into a healthier state of being.
I have to accept who she is.  I have to recognize who she is, and then process it from there.
I can "forgive" but only do harm in the future by forgetting the lessons learned.
If I'm waiting for something to change once I feel I forgive her, I'll be waiting a long time for change.  I really have sought out inside if I'm holding on to something that I need to forgive, and I don't think that's the case.   I have regrets up to my earlobes, and wish I would have done endless things different.  But, I don't think my forward motion is going to be held back by unforgiveness.
If this makes sense, good.  Thanks for reading ;)

[Lucky Jim]

Hey Sam, Where would you like to go from here?  I'm unsure from your last post.  Only you can find the path through the BPD Forest that is best for you.  LJ

[SamwizeGamgee]

I have a desire for honesty at this point.  I think I’ll set up a couples counseling sessions and get it out in the open.  I’m sort of at the point that I’m cleaning my conscience and then I’ll figuratively blow it up and see where things land.
Me being a nice guy just makes us both live a lie.

[BeagleGirl]

I have a desire for honesty at this point. 

Me being a nice guy just makes us both live a lie.

Samwize,
I think you may have hit on the key issue you are dealing with.  12 step programs teach that "you are only as sick as your secrets".  I don't think you have to be an addict for that to ring true.

I remember feeling all through my marriage that dBPDxh had a wall around the core of who he was.  There were some shameful things behind that wall, but I would have gladly faced those things with him if that was all it would cost to be able to really love him for who he really was. 

I don't think you can (re)engage with someone if either of you is unwilling/unable to be authentic.  So if you are willing to be honest, that's 50% of what is necessary for you to re-engage with your wife.  I believe it's also 100% of what you need to recover yourself, but I'll hold that thought for later. 

What are the lies and secrets that you want to move away from?

You mentioned setting up a MC appointment to reveal your honest feelings.  I would encourage you to spend a little time here and/or with a T figuring out what those feelings are before the appointment with your wife.

I found it interesting that you look at revealing the truth of how you feel as "blowing up" your relationship.  I understand how it can feel that way, and how it can also feel comforting to think that maybe nothing will be left after you "blow it up" and you will be free.  I think you probably already get this, but there's a difference between blowing up the relationship and blowing up the lies that are standing in the way of relationship.  I think it's probably worth starting your honesty exercise with yourself and figuring out which you are aiming for.  That's not an easy exercise, by the way. 
BG

[SamwizeGamgee]

In the spirit of the thread BG has concerning "unpacking the box" I've been thinking in terms of layers of cause and effect.  I was bad because I was so badly treated.  I think that 's how it went.

The truth that would blow it up, and the reason I want to have a counselor around to manage my output and her input, is that from the wedding on, I've regretted getting married.  Pretty much everything has been disappointment and unhappiness, suffering, and what I see and know as abuse.   I know that sounds like a global pessimism from a depressed person, but, being an optimist (and rescuer, and "Hunter" - as Lawson would describe) kept me in the marriage.  I was able to repress my feelings, recover, endure, make some of my own happiness, come back for more, and stay married.  

I see marriage as a contract.  Right now mostly as a child care contract.  Sure marriage has had some good times.  But, that's because I can find some basic good in all things.  Good memories are there, but they are mine, and not due to a mutuality.

In a cosmic sense of balance, being a husband has been my worst experience, and a father, the best experience.  

I imagine my wife hearing me say the truth, that I've regreted marriage to her specifically, and I am emotionally dead to her, as being pretty upsetting.  That is similar to the truths towards the bottom of my baggage.  As I unpack, I realize the mess I'm in.  

I previously survived and endured marriage.  I was a good victim.  I was also an abuser.  A lot changed in 2015.  After I learned that feelings werre okay.  I learned I had feelings.  I learned that I was actually a normal guy, within range of normal-guy behavior.  I then learned to identify emotional and verbal abuse.  And oh boy, did my world open up.  I can't un-see what I see.  I can't wipe my mind of being aware now of the tendencies of my wife to project, blame, dysregulate.  (footnote: I think this is why my need to forgive is kicking in).  I can't go back to ignorance of my feelings, my truths.

I learned to validate others and honor them.  I try to give myself the same accord, but, that seems to take a lot of work to keep believing myself, valuing and honoring myself and feelings.  I respect boundaries, and yet still have a harder time enforcinng them.  I see my life with new eyes.  I can't see what I see today and re-engage in marriage.  I don't think I can take honesty and put it back in.  That leaves out trust, therefore.  That leaves out any true intimacy.  

To quote Col. Jessup "you can't handle the truth!"  --- at least that's how it seems to me things would play out.  Who knows?  

Maybe she'd be relieved to know, and finally have a true bearing to make the rest of her life better.  I'd hate to be married to someone in my condition.  

[BeagleGirl]

I was bad because I was so badly treated. 

I try to give myself the same accord, but, that seems to take a lot of work to keep believing myself, valuing and honoring myself and feelings. 

Samwize,
If you've read The Gifts of Imperfection then you'll understand why I'm going to  the first statement I quoted above.  Brene Brown distinguishes shame (I was bad) from guilt (I did bad things) and talks about the destructive nature of shame and the constructive nature of guilt.  Do you think that you are still struggling with shame over your decisions and actions from the past?  If so, then the second quote I pasted above makes a lot of sense. 

Being an optimist (and rescuer, and "Hunter" - as Lawson would describe) kept me in the marriage.  I was able to repress my feelings, recover, endure, make some of my own happiness, come back for more, and stay married. 

I can SOO relate to this.  I look back at my marriage and see that I was drawing from an nearly endless supply of hope and optimism.  I proudly own my optimism and know it has a lot to do with my ability to problem solve (you can't be a very effective problem solver if you don't have an inherent belief that there is a solution) but I am learning to recognize that there are some problems without solutions and some solutions are beyond my abilities and that does not mean that I am lacking in any way.  There comes a point where my problem solving shifts from being inspired by a belief that there is a solution to being fueled by a fear that if I don't find a solution then it will mean I'm "not enough".  That's when I enter the danger zone.

I can't wipe my mind of being aware now of the tendencies of my wife to project, blame, dysregulate. 

I can't see what I see today and re-engage in marriage.  I don't think I can take honesty and put it back in.  That leaves out trust, therefore.  That leaves out any true intimacy. 

And then there's this... .I also remember the moment that I realized I couldn't "unsee".  I think the optimism/shame combo kept me blinded to the truth for a VERY long time - 20+ years.  Seeing the truth didn't eliminate the shame component (it just gave me new things to be ashamed of) but it cut off the supply of hope that had kept me going.  I would say that's when I stopped loving dBPDxh.  I didn't stop trying, but I stopped loving. 

I feel like I can relate, and maybe that's all you need right now.  To know that you're not alone.  If you want feedback/advice in any specific area, let us know. 

I believe honesty is the first step in healing.  My one question when reading your post was around whether it would be worthwhile to share the truth about how long you have regretted the decision to marry, at least at first.  I think it would be worth asking your T before the MC about whether to restrict your discussion to your current/more recent feelings to start with.  If your wife can "handle" those and wants to work towards reconciliation then it may become more appropriate to share how long you've been feeling these things. 

I kind of feel like saying "I've always regretted marrying you" (no matter how nicely you phrase it) is a relationship ender unless you're in a place of trust in your commitment to work through that and stay married.  Frankly, I think that may be what you are hoping, at least on some level.  If that's the case, I think there are kinder ways to end the marriage.  Do you think that might be a possible motive you need to explore more?

BG

[SamwizeGamgee]

Beagle Girl, you're really unloading on me!
I'm still trying to take in that I'm only as sick as my secrets.  I love that idea as it is soaking in.

As for guilt and shame, I do plan to refresh my reading of Gifts of Imperfection.  In my case that you frame above, I think it is really an acceptance of my responsibility.  I was guilty in a healthy way - as I came to realize and study abusive behavior.  After a lot of my reading on abuse, parenting, and emotions, I have felt my self schooled and brought into better behavior.  I believe I have a pretty healthy sense of self in spite of my problems.  I don't think toxic "shame" is part of my internal scenery anymore.  In fact, this shame was self-correcting - as I got into my self in 2015.  I dove into reading and therapy, and came to discover I was actually fairly normal / okay.  That released a lot of "shame" that was ascribed by my wife over the preceding 17 years.  I can't quite figure out how I got to be so brainwashed / shamed / controlled, maybe a little guilt let shame in, and uBPDw exploited it, but, I think I've got a much clearer view now.  A result of that realization now is residual disrespect, anger, and resolve to never let her into an intimate zone in my psyche.  One can debate that principle or my reaction, but, I don't think I can recover.

[BeagleGirl]

Beagle Girl, you're really unloading on me!

Thanks for letting me know.  So many of the things that you've said resonate with where I have been/am, so I think I'm processing a lot of my own stuff when I "talk" to you about your stuff.  My apologies for overwhelming you.  I promise to slow down and let you process.  Don't worry that it's you.  Most of my friends have learned ways of saying "Slow down BeagleGirl and let me catch up" and I'm getting better at recognizing when I've outrun the rabbit because of it.

FWIW, I think your response to understanding your wife's behaviors and how they have impacted you has been compassionate and well thought out.  One of the concepts that I took away from "The Emotionally Destructive Marriage" by Leslie Vernick was "Stay well, leave well".  It sounds like you are doing all you can to stay in the marriage well or leave the marriage well and I admire that effort.

BG

[SamwizeGamgee]

BG - keep it coming!  I'm enjoying the counsel and sharing, but, it's kind of like going outside on a sunny day.  I've got to blink a little bit to adjust.
I think I'm getting out of a rut.  I was complacent and in sort of a neutral pause for several months.  Recently I've felt pushed into action - I think by my D17's cold-hearted rejection.
I'm glad for your ready replies.  No problem ;)

[Cat Familiar]

Well, speaking as someone who blew up my first marriage with the truth (and that was after a point when I realized that I could not tolerate one more minute of it), I confessed that I had never loved him, not even at the beginning.

I hadn’t planned to say that, and it came out in the cold light of the day, a couple of days after he had physically attacked me for the last time. I did not mean it to be abusive, but it was the culmination of withholding so much over the years because I thought he couldn’t handle it.

At that moment, I was totally out of don’t give a f*s and I was being completely truthful, coldly and exhaustedly and entirely honestly.

It stopped him in his tracks, but it felt good to finally tell the truth. I don’t know that I would recommend this strategy unless you want to permanently sever all ties.

[SamwizeGamgee]

I know what you're saying!  
I'm being more and more open with my feelings, to where I think maybe my brother knows more than he ever wanted to know ;)
It's no longer emotional for me.  Because on my matter-of-fact approach, I might not filter myself in time to stop me saying that I've regretted marriage from day one.  Though that would be terrible to say, and hear, and completely needless to say.  I try to stick to the current prepared statement which is' "I'm just not happy in marriage.  And our family needs healing.  And healing would probably be best in two separate households."

I know that once I reach a limit, I don't dress up my stories.  On my run today, I came back with the feelings that I am longing for honor once again.  If I feel emotionally divorced, but, look like I'm married.  Something inside isn't connected properly.  I want the day when the truth comes out.  Full disclosure isn't needed, but, I want to know that my life actions are aligned to my feelings - and all that goes on inside.  If that makes sense.  I feel like this is one more way the victim gets abuse.  I've got to carry the internal damage, scars, and stories to keep the peace, keep things going, keep the lies holding us up.

And BG, I hope that I didn't quell your participation, I wanted you to unload your comments on this, and everything else.  

[Cat Familiar]

When you withhold the truth, you create a distance. I'm doing that in my current marriage in that I know and understand more than I'm telling. In this case, in weighing pros and cons, I realize that this is a healthy choice for the most part. It's sad in that we don't have the intimacy that we once had, but I suspect much of that was the BPD honeymoon phase. And since I value my autonomy and he does as well, I think both of us naturally tend to want to have a bit of distance. It's like the personal space bubble. I feel far more comfortable if people aren't "huggy" and respect my personal space. With some people it's fine, but my tendency is to want a bigger bubble than some people.

So obviously the truth I'm withholding is my awareness of his personality disorder, which was confirmed to me by my psychologist, who had previously seen the two of us for counseling. So, using the tools I've learned here and coming to terms with accepting who he is, keeps me from being totally honest with him at times. I don't see this much differently than responding constructively, rather than with blunt honesty, when a friend asks me if she looks fat.

If I apply the withholding the truth concept to my first marriage, there was a lot more that fit into that box. I absolutely hated some of his behavior, actually much of his behavior and I totally lost respect for him, was completely tired of hearing his "victimhood" stories, thought he was a self absorbed and selfish man who contributed little to anyone or anything's betterment. I could go on... .

So those were the "truths" that I was concealing for years and in the process, shoring up his fragile ego. Not good.

[Lucky Jim]

Let's face it, a lot of issues get driven underground in a BPD r/s because the consequences of being honest are potentially so explosive.  I think it's natural for a Non to avoid an emotional firestorm.  You could say that those w/BPD don't foster open communication because they tend to be so volatile.

Agree, Cat Familiar, it creates a distance, but that runs with the territory, so-to-speak.

LuckyJim

[BeagleGirl]

And BG, I hope that I didn't quell your participation

Samwize,
No quelling possible with a Beagle. 

I find that running helps align my body, heart and head.  It sounds like it does the same for you. 

Do you mind if we pick apart your "prepared statement"?  Actually, I'm going to ask for forgiveness rather than permission and start the picking. 

"I'm just not happy in marriage.  And our family needs healing.  And healing would probably be best in two separate households."

I'll take it a sentence at a time:

I'm just not happy in marriage. - Okay.  The natural follow up questions for me, if I were the one hearing this, would be "Why?" and "What needs to happen for you to be happy in this marriage?"  There's also the possibility of "How long have you felt this way?"  Are these questions you're willing/ready to address?

And our family needs healing. - Why the shift from yourself to the family?  "What's wrong with our family?  Who's hurting?  What do we need healing from?"  Do you think that shifting focus from yourself and your feelings helps put a better framework in place for what you are going to say next?

And healing would probably be best in two separate households.  "For how long?  What healing?  Are we doing family therapy?  Who gets to stay and who leaves?... ."  These are just the beginning of the questions about what a separation/divorce would look like.  Do you plan to have answers for them when you have this conversation, or work through them with your wife? 

BG