Unpacking the emotional abuse "box"

[BeagleGirl]

A discussion started by JNChell about the role of labels got me thinking about what it means to put the label of abuse on what I experienced with dBPDxh. 
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=328611.0

I feel like I have packed away the abusive aspects of my relationship with dBPDxh.  I went through a period of time when I started to identify them as such, and that gave me the strength to not go back to the relationship without clear evidence of change from him, but I can't say I really examined the abuse aspect or how it impacted me.  Now that our divorce is final I kind of want to leave everything in the box and move on, but I keep bumping into that box. 

My T is indicating that acknowledging the abuse I experienced and its impact on me is something I would benefit from and I know that she will walk the journey with me.  I think it would be valuable to have a specific discussion topic on the process of unpacking the "box" that we put those abuse experiences in.  I know some of you have already walked this road and I could really use some of your insight/guidance/cheerleading.  I think there are probably others who are, like me, ready to embark on the journey of unpacking that box.  Wanna be box buddies?

So the first questions I have are "Where do you start with something like this?"  and "What are some tools that will help with the process?"

BeagleGirl


So 

[Insom]

So the first questions I have are "Where do you start with something like this?"

Indeed, you have started, BeagleGirl! 

"What are some tools that will help with the process?"

Hmm . . . what feels most tough or scary to you about this?  What do you mean by help?  What do mean by tools?

[steelwork]

BG, I’m here with my box, listening. Ex identified his behavior as abusive during the r/s. I’m still struggling to know what it was.

[Turkish]

My T invalidated me when I mentioned that I thought my ex was abusive.  I think in his mind,  given what he had seen over his 30 year career,  unless I was being beaten,  I wasn't abused. That I felt so helpless that I wanted to die (not quite SI) wasn't good enough I guess,  and that was me. 

I know many of you here were and I don't mean to minimize that in the least.

[LightAfterTunnel]

Hi BeagleGirl,

I’m willing to listen and talk with you while holding my box in hand and ready.

My T has been very clear to me over the last years at defining what abuse my dBPDw was subjecting me to. I think he was purposely forceful with me because I had the tendency to pack these aspects away as you say and he wanted me to recognize her actions for what they were... .abuse.

Now, similar to you, I’ve seen her actions for what they were but I find myself often wondering about her abuse along another tangent. Specifically, I have difficulty talking openly about her abuse because I find many of her actions/ways to be obfuscated by cultural, historical, and social norms. By this I mean that what I see as abuse might not be considered out of the norm for others of different backgrounds.

Everytime I have attempted to open up my pandora’s box of abuse I find myself conflicted as to how my experiential feelings are conditioned by my upbringing and I find myself having difficulty in saying “yes this is blatant abuse”. Instead I have reached the point in which I say “I don’t care if this abuse or not, I do not want to be treated this way.”

So where do we start? I don’t know... .why don’t you throw an example out there? I’m here.

LAT

[Mustbeabetterway]

Hi BeagleGirl,  thanks for starting this topic.  Unpacking the box is exactly what I am working on. 

Trusting myself to be honest about what really happened in my relationship with uBPDh is what I am working on.  Just yesterday, I met with my therapist and this was the main thing we worked on - unraveling the reasons I am not able yet to trust my reasons for staying out of my marriage. 

I know why I left, but why I haven't gone back is something I struggle with and have to keep working on.

I look forward to continuing this discussion.   

Mustbeabetterway

[BeagleGirl]

Last night I started looking at books on healing from emotional abuse.  I started going back through "Why Does He Do That?" to try to trigger memories of ways dBPDxh used abusive tactics. 

Right now I'm dealing with the feelings/thoughts "He really wasn't that bad.  He never hit me.  He didn't isolate me from friends and family.  He never screamed at me the way his mother screamed at his dad and sister."  and "He can't have been doing it intentionally.  He's not a bad person. He's just hurt and that's how he deals with the hurt."

I hold those feelings/thoughts up against what I'm thinking about myself.  "I didn't give him enough chances.  I didn't try hard/long enough to use the tools.  I hid his secrets in the first 4 rounds of marriage counseling, so they couldn't be addressed.  I started doing abusive things (mocking, belittling, name calling) towards the end of our marriage.  I left the marriage.  I valued my happiness above his and that of our children."

This morning I feel like I'm staring at the top layer in the box and all I want to do is close it and shove it as far away as I can, but it's so very heavy and I don't think I can move it until it's unpacked.

I also had a bit of an aha moment. I've always been overweight, with two notable exceptions.  In 2004 I reached my ideal weight.  I need to look a bit more closely at what was different about that year in my marriage, but I remember my focus being my role as a mother and my work.  I remember being happy and fulfilled that year.  We ended up moving across country as I pursued a new career and I remember the weight creeping back up in the first year, but now I am remembering events with dBPDxh and realizing that my weight gain tracks with those times.  In 2013 there was a triggering event that led me to give up on my marriage.  I largely detached myself from dBPDxh without leaving the marriage.  My weight dropped as I focused on work and training for my first two half marathons and then fell in love with my affair partner.  My weight gain after that correlates to the point in time where I started realizing that returning to my marriage meant returning to the same patterns. 

In the past 6 months I have felt pretty detached from dBPDxh and I have lost over 30 lbs.  I haven't really needed to work that hard at it this time around.  I'm enjoying the food I eat and the exercise I do, so I just find myself being a bit more mindful.  The thing is, since I started really staring at this box and thinking about dealing with the memories of dBPDxh, I've been picking up the mindless eating again.  The ice cream that sat in my freezer for a month disappeared in a week and last night I polished off chips that were stale and not all that satisfying.  And I'm feeling the shame of it.  And I'm realizing that this is a pattern; that even the thought of dealing with memories of dBPDxh is resulting in the drive to fill my stomach and numb the feelings.  It may also be a way to remind myself that I'm the failure.  I can't fix my marriage and I can't control my weight.  Shame feels more comfortable than blame.  I'd rather feel like a failure than a victim. 

Okay.  I had no idea that was in the box.   

BG

[BeagleGirl]

My T invalidated me when I mentioned that I thought my ex was abusive.  

Turkish,
I'm so sad to hear that you weren't heard.  It's hard enough when a friend or relative discounts your experience, but when a professional does so it's got to make you question yourself that much more.

FWIW, I feel like I'm finding myself asking "Does this belong in this box?"  On the one hand I want someone to tell me "Yes.  That was abuse.  You are not crazy or weak for having been hurt by that." and on the other I want to be able to say "I experienced this as abuse.  It may not qualify as abuse to some and definitely wasn't as extreme as others have experienced, but it still wounded me."

It takes a lot of pain to get someone to the point of not wanting to live.  I know.  I've been there.  Would you mind sharing what you experienced that was invalidated? 

BG

[BeagleGirl]

BG, I’m here with my box, listening. Ex identified his behavior as abusive during the r/s. I’m still struggling to know what it was.

Steelwork,
Are you struggling with identifying the behaviors or classifying them as abusive?

BG

[BeagleGirl]

Now, similar to you, I’ve seen her actions for what they were but I find myself often wondering about her abuse along another tangent.

I have reached the point in which I say “I don’t care if this abuse or not, I do not want to be treated this way.”

LightAfterTunnel,
I sometimes wonder if I go down those tangents as a way of avoiding the pain of facing it head on.  I am thinking that sometimes I NEED the more circuitous route either because head on would be too much to handle at once and sometimes I realize that those tangents have their own important lessons.

I think I reached a similar spot with not caring about the label "abuse", but when I asked my T this week if there was value in that label she said "yes".  I think the mentality of "I don't want to be treated this way" was key to getting me to step away from the relationship I had with dBPDxh and not go back unless the terms changed.  As I read about healing from emotional abuse, that's an early stage.  I'm reading that for further healing I need to spend more time recognizing and grieving the abuse I experienced and I think that, at least for a time, naming what I experienced as "abuse" is important.

I think we'll probably get into some stories/examples as we start unpacking, do you have any you are working through right now?

BG

[BeagleGirl]

I know why I left, but why I haven't gone back is something I struggle with and have to keep working on.

Mustbe,
I can definitely relate.  The thing that I clung to (like a life preserver) through the daily decision to not go back and then to take the step of agreeing to end the marriage was the idea that if I went back before I had clear evidence of change then I was taking away the chance of that change ever occurring. 

At the time I was very focused on the change I wanted to see in dBPDxh but as I look back I see that I was also looking at my response to him and wondering if I could ever change that enough to have a chance at the marriage I wanted. I'm still dealing with feelings of guilt for not trying hard enough, not giving enough chances, etc.  I'm starting to think that's, to some extent, linked to the abuse patterns.  I think those feelings are normal even in non-abusive situations, but the degree to which I take responsibility for the end of my marriage seems to be significant to my T.

Do you think it would help to put into words the reasons you left and attempt to put into words the reasons you aren't going back?  Do you see change that you think indicates you could or should go back?

BG

[Wicker Man]

Right now I'm dealing with the feelings/thoughts "He really wasn't that bad"... ... .."He can't have been doing it intentionally.  He's not a bad person. He's just hurt and that's how he deals with the hurt."

I have come to look at Dream Come True as essentially two people -the one I fell head over heals in love with and the person who hates her.  Both of these people live inside of her.  She is not a 'bad' person, however I don't think I could ever convince her of it.  I completely agree with your sentiment 'He's just hurt and that's how he deals with the hurt'

Dream Come True acted almost like a wounded animal in that she could be incredibly dangerous when she emotionally cornered herself.  She wasn't hurtful to me out of evil, but in a desperate bid for self preservation -the threat came from within.  She had no Machiavellian plan for manipulation -she was a leaf blown in her maelstrom of emotional torment. This is an explanation for her behavior --not an excuse. 

"I didn't give him enough chances... ... ..I valued my happiness above his and that of our children." 

Valuing your happiness is a show of strength not weakness -staying in a destructive marriage is never healthy for children.  This is up to you to reconcile, but I caution against your statement 'choosing your happiness over that of your children'.  You were protecting their mother.

I'd rather feel like a failure than a victim. 

Can you choose neither failure or victim?  Is there a third more constructive possibility?

As to diet... .ugh!

It is incredibly difficult to diet when in emotional distress.  Since ending my relationship with Dream Come True I quickly gained 10 pounds.  It is coming off now, but it was easy to try to find succor in the comfort of food (and gin).  3 days ago I stopped drinking and have been journalling my eating habits.  Sometimes food journalling helps because I know I am too lazy to write something down and will thusly not snack... .  Laziness as a virtue?

I have found journaling (food and otherwise) invaluable.  Going back through my journal entries has helped me when I have invasive thoughts about Dream Come True.  Re-visiting my journal entries from when my terror of the final days of our relationship was fresh has been enlightening. 

Loving someone suffering from BPD, in my experience,  causes an enormous amount of cognitive dissonance.  There seems to have been a disconnect between how she spoke to me and how she acted.  I feel now both aspects of her were equally real.  She loved me deeply, however when she raged she hated me with equal passion.  In the dysregualtion of rage she could say remarkable things and then have no memory of it. 

I still grapple with is the sheer pity of it all.  She was verbally abusive to me, but I should imagine what I experienced was nothing compared to what she hears daily in her inner dialogue.  She never told me what the voices she heard told her -only that it was terrible. 




Wicker Man

[BeagleGirl]

"This is up to you to reconcile, but I caution against your statement 'choosing your happiness over that of your children'.  You were protecting their mother."

Wickerman,
Thank you for the statement above.  It brought some healing tears. 

I think that one of the patterns I am recognizing is that of devaluing my needs.  I can go back to messages I received from my FOO that left me feeling that I should put my desires and even needs aside if they conflicted with the desires/needs of others.  Eventually that became I must put them aside.  One of the patterns of abuse from dBPDxh was to threaten to leave or withdraw relationship (ST, neglect) if I asked him to meet my needs.  A plea to spend more time with me or help carry some of the burden of housework would be met with "I can't and if you keep asking then I'd rather leave you than try." 

I'm not sure how much of dBPDxh's abuse was born out of pain.  I do know that there were times when he really believed he couldn't give me what I was asking for and that was incredibly painful for him.  But there were also times when I believe he just didn't want to give what I asked because it would require that he put forth more effort than he wanted to expend and then the manipulation and abuse would come in.  I saw those times more and more.  I would watch him spend hours and hours on his hobbies and his willingness to drop everything to help others, but when I had a minor request he "couldn't".  The message I got was that I was not important enough and that meant there was something lacking in me. 

Sigh.  This is all feeling really heavy today.  It doesn't help that today is the day when dBPDxh will pick up all remaining items from my house.  I'm looking forward to having that done, but dreading the actual time when he's here in my home and S15 is watching those last links to the family we used to be be carted away.  It hurts.

BG

[Wicker Man]

One of the patterns of abuse from dBPDxh was to threaten to leave or withdraw relationship (ST, neglect) if I asked him to meet my needs.

This certainly matches my experience.  During her last rage event, which carried on for a week, I was preparing a house here in the US for sale and was having a tough time emotionally -my wife and I had completely renovated it ourselves.  When I asked Dream Come True if we could speak about something pleasant for a few moments she replied 'Being sad and weak won't get you anywhere'.  A few days later this was followed with her 2nd threat of a break up. 

After her first bid for a 'break up' I had told her you can say anything to me except threatening to end our relationship -I told her that will only happen one more time.  I further explained neither of us can be in this relationship with a gun to our head.  I can only presume if I had allowed the relationship to continue this pattern would have gotten far worse.  --ugh.

I believe he just didn't want to give what I asked because it would require that he put forth more effort than he wanted to expend... .

I was working 15-17 hours a day 7 days a week and Dream Come True couldn't always make it out to buy groceries... .1 block away.  It was (actually) fascinating looking back and realizing she almost never did anything I requested.  She could be sweet, but only if it was her idea and on her terms.

The message I got was that I was not important enough and that meant there was something lacking in me. 

As you pointed out this was a learned behavior from your childhood.  His lack of willingness or perhaps lack of ability to help you in your day to day life is in no way a reflection of your value as a human being, rather a reflection upon his ability, or perhaps the lack there of, to show love.  --Never let another person define you; self worth comes from within.  It can be recognized by another person, however never granted by them to you.

It doesn't help that today is the day when dBPDxh will pick up all remaining items from my house... .

I remember those moments vividly when I was preparing to leave. 

It is ok to be sad.  However, try not to beat yourself up -there is a difference.  Being sad over the end of a relationship is natural, but don't blame yourself and turn the sadness into self mortification.  See the sadness for what it is and then when the time is right let it go.  Honestly, I think it is important to allow ourselves to be sad within measure.

S15 is watching those last links to the family we used to be... .

Perhaps when the time is right talk with your son about today.  He may surprise you and have a different view of your divorce.  My parents very likely should have divorced and never did.  My mom spoke with me about it and I supported her as best I could. 

I guess what I am asking is instead of projecting your feelings onto him -talk with him about how he is feeling. 

I am sorry you are having a rough day.

Wicker Man

[Radcliff]

BG, I'd start off by writing.  The two things that come to mind are to sit down and do a dump of everything you remember that was abusive.  Another thing would be to gather scraps of memories as they occur to you over the next few weeks.  Take notes in your phone or on a notepad as you think of isolated memories of abuse.  Things will come to you when you are doing a certain activity, driving by a certain place, or in a certain place in your house.  Over time, you may have quite a collection.  For me, the forgetting allowed me to get by for a time, but forgetting worried me -- it feels better now to collect the memories for processing and healing.  I can't remember it all at once, it just comes to me one thought at a time and I write it down.

I agree that "I experienced it as abusive" is a helpful way to think.  But it is also good to be validated against commonly accepted definitions of abuse.  I found it particularly helpful to look at the Relationship Spectrum.

Thank you for posting this.

WW

[MeandThee29]

LightAfterTunnel,
I think we'll probably get into some stories/examples as we start unpacking, do you have any you are working through right now?

BG

It was some months back, but my counsellor encouraged me to work on forgiving myself for allowing what happened. I wrote a letter to myself doing that.

I also allowed myself to be angry at how I was treated. This is somewhat funny in a sad way. He had already moved many states away, and we moved out of the family house so it could go on the market. It was empty, waiting for closing at the time, so I had to go regularly and mow and check it. I loved that house and the memories there. So I would go and walk through the house and yell as I walked through each room, and then do my chores. Somehow yelling calmed me down and helped me let go of the house as well as what he did to me. I went one last time before the walk-through to leave the manuals and the keys, and then I haven't even driven by again. It's all over for me.

[LightAfterTunnel]

LightAfterTunnel,
I sometimes wonder if I go down those tangents as a way of avoiding the pain of facing it head on.  I am thinking that sometimes I NEED the more circuitous route either because head on would be too much to handle at once and sometimes I realize that those tangents have their own important lessons.

I think I reached a similar spot with not caring about the label "abuse", but when I asked my T this week if there was value in that label she said "yes".  I think the mentality of "I don't want to be treated this way" was key to getting me to step away from the relationship I had with dBPDxh and not go back unless the terms changed.  As I read about healing from emotional abuse, that's an early stage.  I'm reading that for further healing I need to spend more time recognizing and grieving the abuse I experienced and I think that, at least for a time, naming what I experienced as "abuse" is important.

I think we'll probably get into some stories/examples as we start unpacking, do you have any you are working through right now?

BG

Hi BeagleGirl,

Your reply made me think about whether I am tacitly circumventing the abuse... .and I think you’re right. After I read your reply yesterday I thought to myself that this isn’t hard to put together a list. And as I was doing some work on the house yesterday evening I started making a mental list. I woke up in the middle of the night and had a hard time falling back asleep... .I kept thinking about abuses that I put up with. I guess maybe I do need to write these down.

Unfortunately, my relationship was full of outward verbal and physical abuse on her part toward me. And unfortunately I definitely had maladaptive responses to the situation until I learned better. However, much of those abuses stopped when I put down firm boundaries with her.

Instead, I think the abuse that hurt the most and that I am not confronting, and it sounds like you had a similar experience with your ex, was her complete lack of respect for my persona, my wants, my needs. Almost an invalidation of my existence.

In fact, after our last couples therapy session, in which I talked about wanting a divorce and my dBPDw’s refusal to allow it, the T told me privately that my wife does not recognize my right as an individual to separate from her. She doesn’t see me as an individual.

Does something like this ring a bell for you?

I think Wentworth’s idea of writing down a list is a great idea of where to start. I know I am going to try.

LAT

[Caco Canepa]

Instead, I think the abuse that hurt the most and that I am not confronting, and it sounds like you had a similar experience with your ex, was her complete lack of respect for my persona, my wants, my needs. Almost an invalidation of my existence.

I'm here with my box and following. And this comment really resonates with me. More later. Starting therapy anew this afternoon for this express purpose.

Caco Canepa

[BeagleGirl]

I also allowed myself to be angry at how I was treated... .So I would go and walk through the house and yell as I walked through each room, and then do my chores.

This really stood out to me.  One quote from "Why Does He Do That?" that I resonated with me recently

"One of the basic human rights he takes away from you is the right to be angry with him". 

I'm starting to make the connection between that statement and what it takes to grieve abuse.  One of the steps in grief is anger.  But I'm not allowed to be angry.  So I can't progress in grieving abuse.  I hit the anger stage and that's not "allowed", so I drop back to denial.  Even though he's not here to tell me my anger is wrong, I have 20+ years of him in my head.

Yesterday as I was helping him move the last of his items out of my house I mentioned a funny story I shared with a friend.  He started chuckling and talking about the memory as if he had been there BUT HE WASN'T THERE.  He should have been there, but he was off doing his thing.  He only knew the story because I had relayed it to him and sent him pictures.  He argued that he was there and I just looked him in the eye and said "You weren't there".  It may not sound like much, but those three words summarized a large part of the hurt I experienced in our marriage.  He was not there.  It wasn't yelling, but boy did it feel good to say that to him and to myself.

BG

[LightAfterTunnel]

"One of the basic human rights he takes away from you is the right to be angry with him". 

I'm starting to make the connection between that statement and what it takes to grieve abuse.  One of the steps in grief is anger.  But I'm not allowed to be angry.

Hey BeagleGirl!

Great one!... .this is spot on as well for me.

When I was angry at a serious transgression on her part, and absolutely had the right to be angry, she wouldn’t take any responsibility and would walk away. It was always my problem. Me standing alone while the person responsible for the chaos, the destruction, the hurt feelings was just not there. It must be nice to be able to just check out... .It left me feeling horrible.

I can imagine that you still have him in your head after 20+ yrs of not having your anger validated. I’m sorry.

Initially, when you started this thread, you wrote that the intention behind this behavior mattered. Does it? I believe my dBPDw wouldn’t validate my anger because she honestly couldn’t handle it. Her recognition of my anger would be recognition of her wrongdoings, which is some sort of internal destruction of herself. In a sense she wasn’t at fault.

But does that matter? In the end it left me invalidated time after time until you can’t express yourself.

Is this abuse? I don’t know... .

LAT

[BeagleGirl]

Initially, when you started this thread, you wrote that the intention behind this behavior mattered. Does it?

Is this abuse? I don’t know...

LAT,
That is an excellent question!

I’m thinking that my feeling that the intentions of the abuser(?) matter is linked to the difficulty I have allowing myself to be angry. If he didn’t mean to hurt me the I have no right to be angry. I think that’s the message I heard from him over and over. He didn’t mean to hurt me so I couldn’t be angry and he didn’t need to take responsibility for hurting me.

This morning I tried something new. I took the hurt I uncovered yesterday about him not being there for me and our kids and I allowed myself to feel the hurt and injustice of it. It was wrong that he wasn’t there. It was right that I feel pain from that neglect. I don’t know that I felt much anger, but I felt the pain and wrongness of what I experienced.

And then I was able to understand that he wasn’t there because he was trying to fill the emptiness of himself with the approval of others. I then felt the anger and hurt around his need to go to others for what he needed. I wanted to be the one he looked to. I wanted to be enough to show him who he was and how amazing he was. But I wasn’t enough for him. That’s one of the core hurts - the message that I’m not enough.

I was able to shift from “I wasn’t enough for him.” to “I wasn’t enough for him.”  He had an emptiness that I was never meant to fill. He looked elsewhere to fill it and that resulted in neglect. He didn’t set out to hurt me. I think he knew (after years and years of me telling him) that I would be hurt by it and chose to do it anyway, but he probably also didn’t feel like he had a choice.

What I was able to hold onto was the idea that what I experienced was hurtful and wrong regardless of what the intentions were. My pain and anger are legitimate and nothing he could say would take away that legitimacy. And from that point of understanding I felt like I could release the pain and anger and forgive.

I think that’s another struggle I’ve had. It’s really hard to forgive a hurt that you can’t fully grasp. When you can’t say “That was wrong” then you can’t say “but I forgive you”. That’s why I REALLY hate the statement “I’m sorry if I did something that hurt you. If there’s any question about whether you have a right to be hurt or what the hurtful action was then what exactly are you forgiving?

BG

[mama-wolf]

Hi BG,

Thank you for the heads up and invitation to join this thread.  It's a great one that I will follow closely, even though I think my box is currently glued/nailed/welded/chained shut at the moment... .it's here and I'll figure out how to get at it eventually.  There's also plenty floating around that probably belongs in the box, but I haven't figured that part out yet, either.

So, so many of the things you have said in various posts on this thread are things I could have said myself... .

Right now I'm dealing with the feelings/thoughts "He really wasn't that bad.  He never hit me."

"He can't have been doing it intentionally.  He's not a bad person. He's just hurt and that's how he deals with the hurt."

"I didn't give him enough chances.  I didn't try hard/long enough to use the tools.

"I left the marriage.  I valued my happiness above his and that of our children."

I can't fix my marriage and I can't control my weight.  Shame feels more comfortable than blame.  I'd rather feel like a failure than a victim. 

I identify with ALL of these.  The only thing I can respond to right now is the notion of intent.  I read an article not too long ago (need to find it again) about how intent does not matter.  It gave a great analogy in the form of highlighting the fact that the difference between murder and manslaughter is intent... .but that doesn't really mean much to the victim.  But there's part of the problem, isn't it?  That v-word.  I am also struggling with accepting that part, even though I know it's not a reflection of who I am.  It's something that happened to me--to us.  And the reflection of who we are is what we do about it.

FWIW, I feel like I'm finding myself asking "Does this belong in this box?"  On the one hand I want someone to tell me "Yes.  That was abuse.  You are not crazy or weak for having been hurt by that." and on the other I want to be able to say "I experienced this as abuse.  It may not qualify as abuse to some and definitely wasn't as extreme as others have experienced, but it still wounded me."

From what I can tell, abuse is abuse.  It may be hard to recognize for many of the reasons already discussed here, including the question of intent.  I think the biggest variation between individuals comes in the experience of trauma.  What traumatizes one person will not necessarily traumatize the person right next to them experiencing the same thing.  So abuse may have a bigger impact on some than others, but it's still abuse.

The message I got was that I was not important enough and that meant there was something lacking in me. 

Instead, I think the abuse that hurt the most and that I am not confronting, and it sounds like you had a similar experience with your ex, was her complete lack of respect for my persona, my wants, my needs. Almost an invalidation of my existence.

This was the majority of my experience, since my uBPDstbxw never hit me and only rarely lashed out verbally.  It was the total, pervasive devaluation of self that I experienced.

So I still struggle to accept that I experienced abuse, and my box remains sealed until I can face prying it open with the help of my T and the Family here.  But I'm here!

mw

[MeandThee29]

This really stood out to me.  One quote from "Why Does He Do That?" that I resonated with me recently

"One of the basic human rights he takes away from you is the right to be angry with him". 

I'm starting to make the connection between that statement and what it takes to grieve abuse.  One of the steps in grief is anger.  But I'm not allowed to be angry.  So I can't progress in grieving abuse.  I hit the anger stage and that's not "allowed", so I drop back to denial.  Even though he's not here to tell me my anger is wrong, I have 20+ years of him in my head.

Yes, it's not bad to feel the outrage as long as you use it to heal. Mine completely ignores that I have reasons to not trust him. He says I'm being immature. Ah yes, another sign of abuse. In a healthy relationship, partners will respect that trust needs to be rebuilt when there is a major breakdown. We've been separated a year, and he wants to completely ignore that and start over like the past never happened.

I have "Why Does He Do That?" too. Very eye-opening.

[LightAfterTunnel]

This morning I tried something new. I took the hurt I uncovered yesterday about him not being there for me and our kids and I allowed myself to feel the hurt and injustice of it. It was wrong that he wasn’t there. It was right that I feel pain from that neglect. I don’t know that I felt much anger, but I felt the pain and wrongness of what I experienced.

... .

What I was able to hold onto was the idea that what I experienced was hurtful and wrong regardless of what the intentions were. My pain and anger are legitimate and nothing he could say would take away that legitimacy. And from that point of understanding I felt like I could release the pain and anger and forgive.

Hi BeagleGirl,

So I’ve come to view anger as a transitory feeling that really just serves as a “wake up“ call to the real feelings below. And when you’ve gotten below the wake up call usually you can see your real feelings lying there vulnerable and in need of recognition. Once you’ve given your true feelings the recognition they need then your ability to love and empathize can really shine.

It sounds to me like you have done exactly this.

To me it seems like you’re able to see the hurt he’s caused, you’ve accepted your anger and it’s passed , you’ve recognized the true core touched of not being enough, and you’re able to see the sadness in him. And you forgive.

Doesn’t that feel good? You’re an amazing person to be able to go through all that and still empathize and forgive. I mean really you should be proud of yourself.

However, your worry about what is an abuse and whether or not there’s intent makes me feel that you’re searching for some justification for your actions. Why isn’t the fact that you deserve more enough? That you deserve to be happy and that you aren’t when you’re with him.

You’ve done quite a lot... .YOU deserve to be happy. Maybe concentrating on yourself for a bit might help you with perspective as you go through your box?

LAT

[mama-wolf]

Looks like I missed this update when I was working on my recent post... .

I’m thinking that my feeling that the intentions of the abuser(?) matter is linked to the difficulty I have allowing myself to be angry. If he didn’t mean to hurt me the I have no right to be angry. I think that’s the message I heard from him over and over. He didn’t mean to hurt me so I couldn’t be angry and he didn’t need to take responsibility for hurting me.

Yes, I got similar responses/messages.  I don't mean to be impulsive, so you can't be angry with me for it.  I don't mean to cut you off, so you can get frustrated with me for doing it time and time again.  I don't mean to be needy, so you can't be exhausted by it.  I don't mean to disregard your needs, so you can't feel neglected.  I don't mean to upset you, so you can't be hurt.

My stbx perfected the art of playing the victim, and of avoiding responsibility for 1) the initial behavior and 2) making the necessary changes to improve the behavior.

What I was able to hold onto was the idea that what I experienced was hurtful and wrong regardless of what the intentions were. My pain and anger are legitimate and nothing he could say would take away that legitimacy. And from that point of understanding I felt like I could release the pain and anger and forgive.

BG, I'm really happy for you that you got to this place!

I think that’s another struggle I’ve had. It’s really hard to forgive a hurt that you can’t fully grasp.

Here's where I'm stuck.  And it goes beyond the question of emotional abuse and mistreatment by my stbx.  This even gets into the deeper abandonment issues that my T has hinted factor into my emotional avoidance.  I am struggling to identify the pain in the first place.  What is it that really has hurt me so much.  I don't like admitting that I got hurt at all--ever.  Nothing should be able to hurt me, right? (wrong)

I think part of that is the fact that I have already intellectualized the hell out of it all over the years, and the other part is that I just don't want to identify it.  I don't want to recognize it, or feel all the feelings associated with it.  My T pointed this out... .the understandable fear that the feelings will just be too much and I'll fall apart.

I'm really glad for you that you have identified this and processed some of the emotions.  As LAT indicated (and my T also confirmed), anger is a secondary emotion.  It's a good signal to us that something needs attention, but the key is to address what's underneath as you have done.  Thank you for sharing your journey!

mw

[BeagleGirl]

I don't want to recognize it, or feel all the feelings associated with it.  My T pointed this out... .the understandable fear that the feelings will just be too much and I'll fall apart.

MW,
I heard an awesome story today that may help with that fear.  It was about a woman who, like you, was afraid that if she started uncovering the pain it would become a pit that she would never be able to climb out of.  A dear friend asked her "What if that pit is not really a pit, but the entrance to a tunnel to safety?" 

I have to say that I'm going through more pain right now than I have since I left dBPDxh.  It's not fun.  But on days like today I know that it's worth it.  I feel the chains falling off and the wounds healing.  I know that I am uncovering the beautiful spark at the core of who I am.  I don't say this to imply that you should dive into that box.  It is time for me to do this.  I don't know when your time will come, but I think that when it does, you'll find that you've been gathering the tools you'll need without really even knowing it.

BG

[BeagleGirl]

You’ve done quite a lot... .YOU deserve to be happy. Maybe concentrating on yourself for a bit might help you with perspective as you go through your box?

LAT,
I didn't share all of what I experienced this morning, but given your question above I think I should.

As I thought about the emptiness that dBPDxh's neglect came out of I went to my core belief that the only "person" who can tell us who we are in a meaningful way is God.  That got me asking what I am doing to fill my own emptiness and led me to ask God "Who am I?"

When I want to really hear from God I picture myself climbing into His lap.  Often I see myself laying my head on His chest and listening to His heart beat.  Today I had a very vivid picture of Him showing me the strength He built into me. 

You know how you lay a baby on your lap and hold its feet in your hands and feel the push and pull of his legs?  I felt like God was doing that with me and saying "Look at these strong legs.  I made you to walk and not grow weary, to run and not faint."  And with my shoulders "Look at these strong shoulders that can carry such burdens yet not stoop.  I made you to stand tall and bend but not break".  And with my heart "Look at this strong heart.  I made you to love freely no matter how much it hurt.  I gave you an extra big heart not so you would have a larger vessel of love to empty out for others, but so that you could receive all the love I want to bestow on you."  And with my smile... .(For this one I need you to know that my given name means "Happy, joyful one".)

For my smile He said "Look at that beautiful smile.  I made you "Happy, joyful one".  I made you to beam with joy so brightly that it makes the whole world around you sparkle and bring joy to those around you.  You are "Happy, joyful one"."

I'm spending today resting in that image of who I am. 

BG

[MeandThee29]

For my smile He said "Look at that beautiful smile.  I made you "Happy, joyful one".  I made you to beam with joy so brightly that it makes the whole world around you sparkle and bring joy to those around you.  You are "Happy, joyful one"."

I'm spending today resting in that image of who I am. 

BG

Tuesday nights I go to a faith-based 12-step group. The lady that gave the talk this week used this phrase throughout: "Christ in me; I am enough." She is the wife of a former church leader and hid a problem with alcohol for over a decade in addition to codependency, and she said that phrase helped her immensely in recovering. Even failing and falling, He loves us as we are and accepts us. He sees potential in us when no one else does.

[Radcliff]

Instead, I think the abuse that hurt the most and that I am not confronting, and it sounds like you had a similar experience with your ex, was her complete lack of respect for my persona, my wants, my needs. Almost an invalidation of my existence... .

my wife does not recognize my right as an individual to separate from her. She doesn’t see me as an individual.

Does something like this ring a bell for you?

Absolutely.  This is a fundamental description of my experience in my marriage.

This really stood out to me.  One quote from "Why Does He Do That?" that I resonated with me recently

"One of the basic human rights he takes away from you is the right to be angry with him". 

Wow.  I read the book, but don't remember that quote.  Switch the pronouns and it applies to me.  For a guy, becoming angry is a great excuse for the woman to call abuse.  Even though my patience was legendary and many times I resisted my wife's attempts to draw me into becoming violent ("draw a foul").  I am sure there are all sorts of gendered insults that can be used against a woman to deny her the right to be angry.  In fact, our county's batterer's program guidelines include "using gender to deny the survivor the ability to express the normal range of human emotions" as a form of abuse.

[LightAfterTunnel]

You know how you lay a baby on your lap and hold its feet in your hands and feel the push and pull of his legs?  I felt like God was doing that with me and saying "Look at these strong legs.  I made you to walk and not grow weary, to run and not faint."  And with my shoulders "Look at these strong shoulders that can carry such burdens yet not stoop.  I made you to stand tall and bend but not break".  And with my heart "Look at this strong heart.  I made you to love freely no matter how much it hurt.  I gave you an extra big heart not so you would have a larger vessel of love to empty out for others, but so that you could receive all the love I want to bestow on you."  And with my smile... .(For this one I need you to know that my given name means "Happy, joyful one".)

For my smile He said "Look at that beautiful smile.  I made you "Happy, joyful one".  I made you to beam with joy so brightly that it makes the whole world around you sparkle and bring joy to those around you.  You are "Happy, joyful one"."

I'm spending today resting in that image of who I am. 

BG

This is great!

I am not religious so I have never experienced this. But I am very spiritual and I do breathing exercises often and once in awhile I find myself in a truly wonderful state of relaxation and calm where I percieve my true self clearly.

I bet you felt great.

Personally, before going into the box any longer I would work on holding the thoughts of how strong you are and do things you like for yourself for awhile. Don’t think about your ex at all. Then after you’ve soaked it all in, and I mean soaked well, then come back to the box.

I stopped playing sports for 12 yrs and it was in one of these self appreciation moments that I restarted, now 2 yrs ago. It has done me wonders.

LAT

[BreatheFirst]

This thread has been really helpful. I too have a box to unpack. I sometimes wonder if the abuse was enough to call it abuse. I like that statement about that I experienced it as abuse.

The quote about not being able to be angry with him rings true too.  Are we able to post examples of behaviour and ask for feedback?

[BeagleGirl]

BreatheFirst,
You can most definitely post examples.  I haven't done so yet, but this morning I had some flashbacks that I will probably share when I have a bit more time.
BG

[mama-wolf]

Last night, I had another bout of interrupted sleep.  I am pretty sure it was the thunderstorm that woke me up, but then I couldn't get back to sleep for at least an hour and a half.  I think it's the first time since my stbx moved her things out of the house that I have found myself struggling like that... .I had been sleeping much better lately. 

During that time, I had what I guess I'll call a flashback.  I am sure I have had others, but this was the first time that I think I was aware of it for what it was... .

I had this very vivid recollection of how my stbx would come into the room in the middle of the night after having fallen asleep/passed out on the couch (which happened nearly every night for the year leading up to our separation).  She would make a point to lean over and kiss my head, sometimes partially leaning on me, before settling in to sleep.  I would usually mumblet always woke me up too much to get back to sleep quickly, interrupting my own sleep for the sake of her desire to "show affection" (which was usually just an attempt to wake me up so that I would talk/interact with her).  I eventually asked that she not do that, explaining why and the impact it had on me, and she acted hurt and rejected, still disregarding the request on multiple occasions.  She even intentionally burst into the room one evening during the very tense period between the time that I told her we needed to separate and when she actually started staying at her parents' house.

I lay there last night thinking about all of this... .thinking about how much disregard for me and my needs she showed.  I guess that belongs in the box.

mw

[mama-wolf]

I would usually mumblet always woke me up too much to get back to sleep quickly,

I didn't realize that I accidentally cut out part of my text.  That should have said:

I would usually mumble a "good night" or at least a greeting, both otherwise really tried to focus on getting back to sleep.  But it always woke me up too much to get back to sleep quickly.

[BeagleGirl]

Deep breath... .

Okay, I'm going to show you a few of the items in my box.

dBPDxh started to use physical intimidation in the month before our separation and in the few times we met in private during our separation.  The first time was during an argument.  I had called a time out and gone into our pantry and started to organize it as a way of cooling down.  dBPDxh came in and started berating me.  I remember asking him three times to "please stop" but he kept at it and he wouldn't let me out of the pantry.  It was the first time in our 26 years of relationship that I really felt how much bigger than me he is.  There were two more situations where he trapped me before I learned to never allow him to be between me and the exit and one time where he slammed his hand on a table in a way that was meant to (he admitted this later) intimidate me. 

I've been listening to some YouTube videos by Patrick Doyle (deals a lot with emotional abuse from a Christian perspective) and almost all of them have some reference to the fact that change can't happen unless there is conviction, contrition and repentance on the part of the "offender" (I'm finding this is an easier word to use than "abuser").  He was describing what those things did and didn't look like and advising that the "offended" not work towards reconciliation until there was evidence of those things.  He mentioned that a contrite person never comes with demands for how the offended respond to their repentance. 

This morning I was hearing those words for probably the 20th time in 24 hours and all of a sudden they hit me.  I've had "head knowledge" that dBPDxh was showing me that he was not really repentant, but I still carry a lot of shame for not being willing to reconcile with him.  In quick succession I flashed back on the events mentioned above and a few others that clearly indicated that dBPDxh was not repentant, but this time instead of looking for what I did to trigger (or deserve) those actions I saw them as times when I was being given the gift of evidence that reconciliation wasn't within my control. 

My T told me that looking at these memories from the perspective of abuse would probably lead to some of my "story" being rewritten.  I'm finding that to be true, but in an unexpected way.  While I have continued to attend church and live out of a basic faith in God, I've kept God at a distance since 2015.  I no longer wanted to climb in His lap.  I've reconnected with God in the past few weeks and now when I remember those times I see Him in them.  I see Him standing between me and dBPDxh.  I see Him shielding my heart and gently keeping me from offering it back to dBPDxh where it wouldn't be safe.  I was so afraid to reconnect with God because I thought I would have to face His disappointment in me for not handling those situations better, but now I see Him hurting with and for me in those times.  It's hard to explain, but it's also helping me forgive dBPDxh for those hurts and release them.

Now for the big "reveal" of what is in the box that I'm definitely not ready to unpack.  In fact, I picture this as a sticky goo that can't really be pulled out intact and dealt with.  It's coating and clinging to some of the other objects.

Sex. 

I feel like I need to clarify that I think I have a pretty healthy view of sex in general, but there were a lot of hurts in that area with dBPDxh and I think I have a lot of wounds and some distortions on what the proper role of sex is in my relationships (assuming I ever have any that would open that wonderful activity up to me again).  I think that some of the things I experienced with dBPDxh could border on sexual abuse with a nice little twist of spiritual abuse.  As I said, I'm not ready to pull that out of my box, but on the off chance any of you have that in your box or have unpacked that already, I thought I'd mention it. 

BG

[BeagleGirl]

Yes, it's not bad to feel the outrage as long as you use it to heal. Mine completely ignores that I have reasons to not trust him. He says I'm being immature. Ah yes, another sign of abuse. In a healthy relationship, partners will respect that trust needs to be rebuilt when there is a major breakdown. We've been separated a year, and he wants to completely ignore that and start over like the past never happened.

I have "Why Does He Do That?" too. Very eye-opening.

MeandThee,
Have you seen any change in his behaviors?  (I'm thinking that if he's calling you immature, the answer is probably "no".) How often do you interact?

I remember watching for behavior changes all through our separation.  I would often initiate contact just to see how he would respond.  I got better about not doing that, but I did it often enough that I dubbed it "taking his temperature". 

Out of curiosity, why does he think you are separated? 

BG

[BeagleGirl]

For a guy, becoming angry is a great excuse for the woman to call abuse. 

Wentworth,
Thanks for joining the conversation.  I can only imagine that there is a whole extra compartment in the "box" when you are a man being abused by a woman. 

How did you hold onto/regain your right to exist as an individual when it was denied by your wife?

BG

[Cat Familiar]

As someone who had to go through the process of sorting out the emotional memory box after a long marriage to a physically and emotionally abusive BPD husband, what worked best for me was writing.

I had a trusted friend to whom I wrote long snail mail letters back in the day. It was awesome. I was able to re-examine the reality of a marriage which was quite different behind closed doors than what other people observed and I told the truth, no holds barred.

Of course therapy was also helpful and something my therapist recommended was incredibly helpful. It was a breath work seminar where all the participants lay on the floor, breathed according to directions given by the seminar director, while music played in the background.

My therapist had told me it was a great way to exorcise all those years of feelings that had been stuffed away. I was a bit skeptical, but I tried, nevertheless. I’m not an emotionally expressive person, but that afternoon I cried more than I’ve ever cried in my life and I felt emotionally drained afterwards, but in a good way. Cleansed, complete, finished with much of the past.

The other thing that I did was to repair all manner of things that my ex had half-azzed on the property: fencing, electrical, carpentry. That made me feel whole and renewed.

I wish the best to everyone recovering from these types of relationships and the one piece of advice I must share: Don’t blame yourself. Remember that even therapists with BPD clients need their own therapists to help them cope.

Also most of us who end up with BPD relationships tend to shoulder far more than our share of the blame. Time to point the finger at the appropriate target for a change.

Cat

[MeandThee29]

MeandThee,
Have you seen any change in his behaviors?  (I'm thinking that if he's calling you immature, the answer is probably "no".) How often do you interact?

Out of curiosity, why does he think you are separated? 

BG

We separated because we were fighting daily. He would say that it was because I wasn't making his needs my primary focus (note the narcissism).

Some months back when he was in town getting his things (I was helping), he said that I had to move where he is and break contact forever with the people here including our two young adults (yet more narcissism).

We didn't communicate for several months, and then out of the blue he emailed that he wanted to work out our differences and reconcile by meeting in between for a long weekend to work out things. Then he said that he has turned his life around and wants to treat me kindly. My counsellors say that the long weekend format with an abuser is a disaster even if he is "better" and want him to come here for accountability and counselling. He refuses of course.

I listened to Patrick Doyle again, and there's little contrition. Since then my husband has emailed things like I should be thrilled for the opportunity to meet with my beloved husband (note the narcissism), completely steamrolling over the need to rebuild trust. Another marker that I think I got from "Why Does He Do That?" is that my refusals have just resulted in more guilt trips and logic twists. He's not willing to let me make my own decisions and potentially walk away. He still has to win.

I want to do a reply this weekend to the latest email, and I'm expecting yet another discard. Oh well.

[steelwork]

Steelwork,
Are you struggling with identifying the behaviors or classifying them as abusive?

Gee, this conversation has gotten way ahead of my capacity to add much. The finer details of my r/s are actually getting a little hazy at this point, I realize (yay?), but here’s the best I can do.

We were off/on. Usually that meant that he would declare frustration with my unavailability and withdraw—either coldly or melodramatically. Then he would be back.

I would get these philosophical emails in which he expressed regret for being so hard on me. He would castigate himself (without, it now occurs to me, actually apologizing) for his “shaming” of me.

I would think: “What is he talking about? He was only protecting himself.”

It was only much later—months and even years after he was gone—that I felt I had some idea of what he meant.

It turns out he had a better grasp than I did of what I was entitled to. I’ve been in a few longstanding abusive relationships (another ex, who is still in my life 20 years later—and a mentally ill sibling, now deceased), and I guess my gauges are off where that stuff is concerned.

Yelling.
Blaming.
Calling me selfish when I try to attend to my need for peace, or when I decline to do something risky or flat-out crazy for the other.

My kryptonite: being called selfish.

[steelwork]

I keep thinking of the Alice Cooper song: “Only Women Bleed”

[Cat Familiar]

My kryptonite: being called selfish.

Yes, that was mine too--and it was certainly utilized by a number of people: my mother and my ex-husband really took advantage of that hold on me.

Now my current husband has tried a variation: self-absorbed and with the new understanding I have that it's normal for an individual to have interest in his or her own best interests--I readily agree--"Yes, you're right," and the accusation dies on the vine.

If only I'd known to tell my mother and my ex that I agree with their assessment that I'm selfish and "So what?" Really, their accusations were merely projections. 

[MeandThee29]

Yes, that was mine too--and it was certainly utilized by a number of people: my mother and my ex-husband really took advantage of that hold on me.

Now my current husband has tried a variation: self-absorbed and with the new understanding I have that it's normal for an individual to have interest in his or her own best interests--I readily agree--"Yes, you're right," and the accusation dies on the vine.

If only I'd known to tell my mother and my ex that I agree with their assessment that I'm selfish and "So what?" Really, their accusations were merely projections. 

Mine told me multiple times that I'm a narcissist. When I was more shakey I believed it, and then I asked my therapist. You should have heard her guffaw. She said that one my problems is that I wasn't selfish enough!

[Cat Familiar]

Mine told me multiple times that I'm a narcissist. When I was more shakey I believed it, and then I asked my therapist. You should have heard her guffaw. She said that one my problems is that I wasn't selfish enough!

   After I divorced my first husband I began therapy. I remember my therapist saying, "We've got to build you a self."  I think I was trained by my mother to be selfless and not in a good way. 

[Papa]

Hi, I'm just leaping in here, haven't read all of the thread. I left my wife this time last year, when I could no longer live in the situation. The last straw was when she hit me in the head and refused to let me leave the room for about five hours, just before we went on a family holiday. We went on the family holiday and I left the weekend we got back. My kids (D18, S20) were devastated. I feel awful for this. The week after I left, my wife attacked my motorbike (I'd bought it the previous year as a token of remembrance for my dad who passed away on my birthday, it was like the bike he had when he courted my mum. I don't think I'm very materialistic, but this was my most treasured possession). The following Christmas, when we were going together (at her insistence) to pick my son up on his return from university, she got into the car screaming all manner of abuse and threats to me, my family, my colleagues and wouldn't get out of the car. Then she hit me in the head whilst I was driving. This Spring, on the day of my daughters birthday, she had been lovely when I dropped my daughter to hers for the party, and again when I came to pick my daughter up and drop her friend back home in the snow (I have a 4x4). Then when I dropped my daughter home, she got agitated. As I was leaving she slammed the door on me and nearly severed my index finger. That was the last time we spoke or saw each other. During the days I was in the hospital for surgery and in the weeks and months of recovery, my wife never said or word or sent any message of remorse, regret or well wishes. Now we are getting divorced and she's 'surprised... .and hoped she'd have been given more time to come to terms with things' according to her solicitor.

But these recent violent acts aren't the thing. The thing is the years and decades of emotional abuse, where I knew I was desperately unhappy in the marriage. I left in September 2017. In October and November I was incredibly unsure of whether or not to go back. What gave me the courage to firmly close the door for good, was reading this account of emotional abuse, that took all the disparate problems I had experienced in my marriage and presented them as a clear, concise whole:
https://www.joinonelove.org/learn/emotional_abuse/

The day I read that, I knew I could never go back. I immediately contacted half a dozen friends and family members I had lost touch with and tried to rebuild my network of relationships and support, that had been eroded by the abuse.

And now, almost a year later, here I am. I think most of the 'abuse' is still in the box. I try not to think about it. I don't like thinking about myself as a victim. I feel stupid for not having realised what was going on years or decades earlier, for living with this S**T for most of my adult life (aged 25-50 through my marriage, with this behaviour a constant throughout). I can't believe I spent all those years blaming myself, bending over backwards to make things better (more money, a nicer house, a new car, new dress, the holidays she wants... .being more whatever you think it is she wants, in the hope she'll stop pushing you away and putting you down) and basically being a doormat. What would have happened if in the first year, i'd just gone 'Honey, this is not for me. Shape up or ship out?'.

I've tried to get counselling to help me deal with the abuse. The GP referred me to a local counselling service, but they said they really only deal with depression, and whilst I had some signs of depression, not enough to warrant treatment, and that wasn't really my issue. I needed help to come to terms with decades of emotional abuse. If I was female, there were services they could refer me to, but as a male, not so much. Eventually they gave me three leads, but they all just referred me around in circles from one to the other, like a pass the parcel no-one wants to open.

I've spoke about the emotional abuse with my sister and her husband at length. I don't really feel I can talk about this with my friends or family. I am getting on with the rest of my life and trying to rebuild myself.

But I feel somehow I need to open this box and deal with what I allowed to happen to me for all those years, and to get myself whole.

P.S. Full disclosure, after 18 years of this emotionally abusive relationship, I did have an affair with someone who treated me kindly and like a person who was worthy of respect. We ended the affair a long time ago, as I couldn't leave my kids.

[MeandThee29]

Papa, you've been through a lot. It's sad that you haven't found any avenue for counselling. It is indeed easier for women to find help like we need.

Not taking away from what other folks are saying, but I got an email last night from mine discarding yet again because I won't comply with his demands to meet alone with him and work out a plan for reconciliation. Every counsellor and therapist I've seen in last year said "counselling and accountability or NO GO." So I held the line, and there we are.

I'm very peaceful about that. I held the line and maintained my self-respect. As a friend said to me yesterday, sometimes the most loving thing you can do is to hold a boundary.

[Harri]

Hi.  What a great thread.  You are all showing uch great courage by looking at the things in your box.  I am still in the process of unpacking mine.  It is not the first time though.  I've done this before but rather than really look, I sort of squinted at the things and then put them back in the box.  This time around, i am taking my time and, I think more importantly, I am not putting them back in the box.  some things i no longer need and can discard but others I keep.  i keep them out in the light but under a protective cover (okay, I actually picture the items under umbrellas on a beach).  I protect them but they are no longer hidden and when i am ready to look at them, they are much easier to see.  I wanted to mention that because unpacking the box is important but you also have to think about what you are going to do with the items after.  Let them go?  okay.  Hold on to them?  Fine, but have a place for them where they are safe and easy to find.

I wanted to say that I am struck by how many of us struggle with the idea of being a victim.  Not so long ago I could barely type the word and when I thought it I would shudder.  My T used to try to get me to say "I was a victim" while looking him  in the eye... .I couldn't do it.  For me it was related to control.  Admitting I was a victim meant I had not control (I am writing this from the perspective of an adult child of a mentally ill mother and father).

Papa, I am sorry to hear that counseling is not an option for you at this time.  The good news is that you can do a lot by posting here.  For a long time i was not able to go to therapy (plus there was a time when I thought I did not need it!) and posting here and receiving all the acceptance and support was incredible.  The people also challenged me and gently pushed me to move along.  don't underestimate the amount of healing and growth you can achieve on this board.

Wishing you all peace.

[LightAfterTunnel]

dBPDxh started to use physical intimidation in the month before our separation and in the few times we met in private during our separation.  The first time was during an argument.  I had called a time out and gone into our pantry and started to organize it as a way of cooling down.  dBPDxh came in and started berating me.  I remember asking him three times to "please stop" but he kept at it and he wouldn't let me out of the pantry.  It was the first time in our 26 years of relationship that I really felt how much bigger than me he is.  There were two more situations where he trapped me before I learned to never allow him to be between me and the exit and one time where he slammed his hand on a table in a way that was meant to (he admitted this later) intimidate me. 

BeagleGirl,

I’m sorry that you had to bear this. I’m a 6’4” 220 lb man and my dBPDw was scary when she used to do this to me... .I can only imagine being smaller than the aggressor and how scary it would be.

Now for the big "reveal" of what is in the box that I'm definitely not ready to unpack.  In fact, I picture this as a sticky goo that can't really be pulled out intact and dealt with.  It's coating and clinging to some of the other objects.

Sex. 

I feel like I need to clarify that I think I have a pretty healthy view of sex in general, but there were a lot of hurts in that area with dBPDxh and I think I have a lot of wounds and some distortions on what the proper role of sex is in my relationships (assuming I ever have any that would open that wonderful activity up to me again).  I think that some of the things I experienced with dBPDxh could border on sexual abuse with a nice little twist of spiritual abuse.  As I said, I'm not ready to pull that out of my box, but on the off chance any of you have that in your box or have unpacked that already, I thought I'd mention it. 

BG

So I meant to respond to this some days ago but I only found time now.

If you don’t want to unpack then don’t. But you should know... .I.e my guess is that anyone who has been in an intimate relationship with a pwPD traits has quite a lot of sex-related items in their box.

I have no problem sharing some of mine... .in general her lack of respect for who I was/am just carried over into the sex department.

- She completely made sex a tool that she would operate how and when she pleased to obtain what she wanted.

- In 11 yrs, we went through 3 periods in which she withheld sex for over 6 months, two of which lasted around one year.

- Intimacy, i.e holding hands, kissing, cuddling, fore play, holding her at night (forget about sex) were only when she wanted it, which was very infrequent

- When my wife wanted “it” then she could be cold and awful at times. No affection. No intimacy. She would dictate and then become irate if things weren’t exactly how she wanted.

- At times she would almost be absent, literally I could swear at times that she was another person. Outside of sex, in stressful moments, she would suffer dissociative episodes. In these sex episodes her facial expressions would remind me of that... .as if her mind was somewhere else. She would have an orgasm super quick and then tell me to “hurry up” or something else horrible. A couple times after sexual episodes as such she told me that I treated her like a piece of meat or prostitute! That was a mind f**k in the moment... .

These are only a few snippets of a huge box full of sex issues.

Writing them here and now really makes me think why the hell did I put up with this for so long! At that time I wasn’t aware, I was scared, I had 3 children with her, and I did have deep conflicting feelings for this obviously hurting human being.

We did have a healthy sexual relationship as well, at least until toward the end. Unfortunately, sex is very emotional and this obviously is tricky territory for the pwBPD, so it was unstable as many other parts of her life.

Rehashing all of this out loud with all of you is making me realize how much I’ve grown and strong of a self I have constructed.

Thanks for listening.

LAT

[BeagleGirl]

Hello All,
I've been taking a bit of a break from my box the past few days.  As Harri mentioned doing, I've been looking at the things I've removed from the box and figuring out what to do with them.  So far the things that have made it out of the box have been transformed to a degree that I don't mind keeping them out in the open in a safe place.  They are serving as reminders of what I endured, why I left, and how a shift in perspective can redeem an experience or memory.  I've had the opportunity to share those memories with someone who has experienced abuse and was feeling a bit hopeless and it helped her.

Cat,
I loved what you shared:
"After I divorced my first husband I began therapy. I remember my therapist saying, "We've got to build you a self."  I think I was trained by my mother to be selfless and not in a good way."
I feel like I have a pretty strong sense of self in some areas, but there are also some where I know I need to form/reform that sense of who I am.  One of them is my attractiveness.  That is an area where I have had the message "not enough" all the way back to my FOO and it's one of the deepest wounds (and tied directly to the "goo" in my box) that came out of my marriage.  Today I was drying my hair and I looked in the mirror and spontaneously thought "I'm pretty".  It may seem small or even shallow, but it represents a victory in reclaiming the right to see myself in my own mirror, not that of others.  

Papa,
I'm so sorry for what you experienced and the difficulty you are having getting help.  Maybe you can get some therapy by proxy through this site.  One of my closest friends is in therapy and we often say that we owe eachother's Ts royalties.

"P.S. Full disclosure, after 18 years of this emotionally abusive relationship, I did have an affair with someone who treated me kindly and like a person who was worthy of respect. We ended the affair a long time ago, as I couldn't leave my kids."

I also had an affair after 19 years of marriage.  In a strange (and sad) way, I think that woke me up to what I was living in.  I ended the affair for similar reasons and spent over 2 years doing everything I could to repair and reconcile.  For a while it looked like this would be the wake-up call for dBPDxh as well and we would come out of it stronger than before, but the patterns soon reemerged and now he had the ultimate weapon - my guilt and shame over the affair.  My T has been nudging me more and more to look more closely at my attitudes and beliefs about my affair.  In the past it has felt like she was encouraging me to justify what I did based on what I had endured before I made those choices, and I shut that out because I know that what I did was not justifiable.  Now I am starting to realize that she's asking me to release the shame and have some compassion for myself.  I'm not exactly sure how to do that, but I think that unpacking this box is teaching me some of the skills I'll need to do that.

LAT,
Thank you for being willing to share the sexual component of your box.  I've started looking at that "goo" a bit and may come back and respond a bit more to what you have shared.

BG

[BeagleGirl]

I had another T session today. 
I've been reading a book called "Begin Again" by Leeana Tankersley.  There is a line in there that I have taken as my mantra.  She's talking about the way the concept of "Always we begin again" has meant different things to her through the years.

"In those days, beginning again meant learning and then remembering that things are mostly hard because they're hard, not because I was failing". 

I have condensed that down to "It's hard because it's hard".  For someone who has struggled with taking on the responsibility for so many things that are outside my control and feeling "not enough" because I couldn't keep it all from falling apart or keep myself from falling apart while trying to hold it all together, THIS is a concept I need. 

Today's session was mostly about catching my T up on the progress I have made since we last met.  Recounting it helped me understand how incredible that progress has been.  I know that a lot has shifted for me in a short time, but I also know that the work has been going on for a long time with less apparent progress.  At the end of the session I let her know that in our next session I want to have her look with me at the items in my "box" and help me figure out what to unpack when and how.  I know a lot of things will bring themselves to the surface to be dealt with in the proper time, but I like having a plan. 

Two things she left me with that I think might help some of you with your boxes are:

-The main reason she thinks I'm now dealing with my box is that I have reached a place of safety where I CAN deal with that box.  Even a couple months ago, I was not "safe" from dBPDxh.  Both the legal process and my own detachment process have provided a level of safety and stability that I wasn't operating from before.  When I start feeling frustrated that I'm not further along in my healing, that's a concept I should remind myself of.  Which brings me to the second take away... .

-Victims of abuse often are more "comfortable" with a certain level of pain.  When the abuser is no longer there to inflict the pain, she often sees the abused take over that role and set up some self-inflicted pain mechanisms.  One of the ways she sees that manifest is in a tendency to try to rush through the healing process and berate themselves for not healing faster/better.  Wow!  That rings very true for me. 

Thanks to a lot of encouragement from posters here and my closest friends, I'm learning to take breaks from my "box" and spend some time recovering from the hard work with more self-care and focus on how worthy/lovable/enough I am.  I've had a few days of that, so my pain level has dropped pretty substantially.  Unless something rises to the surface, I'm going to give it another week and wait for my next T appointment before unpacking much more.

How do the rest of you recover/refuel after an unpacking session?

BG

[Cat Familiar]

So glad you're doing better, BeagleGirl, and being kinder to yourself. You've got a whole lifetime to unpack the box... .and you can do it however you want... .as slowly, or as quickly, as it feels right... .and no need to push yourself.  

It's so easy to internalize the critical messages we've received from the pwBPD in our orbits, so taking the time to be kind to oneself is crucial. Who else will do it if we don't do it ourselves? And a very good motivation is that if we love ourselves first, then we will be less swayed by unstable people who attempt to love bomb us.

To quote an ancient Madonna tune: Until I loved myself, I was never loving anybody else.  https://genius.com/Madonna-secret-lyrics

Something I did after finishing my divorce from the husband from hell, is that I did a little ceremony where I symbolically married myself. I thought that perhaps I'd never marry again (little did I know then) so I decided I would be the perfect mate to myself that I never had. I even bought some household goods to replace some things that had memories from my marriage.

It really felt good and I reminded myself to encourage and support myself the way that I thought a loving spouse would do. And guess what? It became a habit. Instead of the internal voices criticizing me, I now hear messages of support and appreciation. Yeah, there's still "You could have done better, but you did try hard and you learned something and next time you'll utilize what you've learned." Believe me, a veteran of unremitting self-criticism, that if I can change that pattern, you can too!  

[XSurvivorX]

I've (finally) been able to read through this thread in its entirety (time, mostly).  This thread is AWESOME.  I never had thought of parts of my pwBPD debacle as something that may have emotions in a "box" yet to be unpacked.  Don't get me wrong - I've got a box alright.  I assume what is in it is mostly from the war, and definitely has things in there that I am not ready to unpack, if ever.  But I never made any linkages to some specific things and the part my BPD r/s had on me, that box, and life.

BG you seem to be making so many breakthroughs!  This is both fascinating and heart-warming for me to read.  Watching you folks all have such deep introspective thoughts on your own specific situations makes me proud to be here (as a newbie who is fresh off the boat, really). 

Sex - just my own two cents: I think this one can be hard for people to 'unpack' because well, lets face it - we're discussing our own personal relationships here, right? And a great many of us are discussing some really intimate details and feelings associated with the closest forms of relationships that we as humans have; these are very emotional, private, intimate things between us and the pwBPD.  The emotional aspect of that is very very private at times, and also can make us feel very vulnerable.

Sex is that physical intimacy act (duh) but, I think given the nature of how it emerges or is used in a pwBPD r/s, on top of the fact that many people hold their sexual thoughts and feelings very close to their chest, I think this part of the BPD r/s becomes even more difficult to process or 'unpack' if you will.

So, like LAT there, I can share some of my own insights or experiences.  I am not sure that sex is in my "box" because my wife and I have a very good, very healthy relationship in that regard.  But for my dBPDxw it was extremely opposite.  Sex was a big part of what lured me into the relationship, for sure.  I was sort of a late bloomer in life, so the sheer volume and intensity my ex offered was not only new to me, but it was also a crowd pleaser.

But... .she comes from an extremely sad, tragic childhood where sex was used against her from a young age; this resulted in her forming notions about what sex was and how she could use it to gain attention from men (older men - I am talking way, way older men.  Like a 30 to 40 year difference... .).  Craving attention she lacked from her family, confused about the sexual abuse she was undergoing, and afraid of being abandoned by anyone in that huge chain led her to using sex to try and "validate" to her partners her worth to them, to try and show them why they should stay.

So, even after getting this information from her (the abuse fact of, and some of the feelings - the rest I sort of analyzed and pieced together) how did we handle sex in our relationship?  Very similar to LAT in a way.  After the initial love bomb campaign, sex was her tool, used on her time and in her way.  I could tell at times that she absolutely dissociated during the act, but she would want me to finish even if I could tell that she even though she initiated it, she was not enjoying it.  Now, I found that pretty hard to do, because well, when you are in the middle of the act and the person just sort of stops responding, and they actually start to look like they don't want to be involved in this any longer... .its kinda hard to finish, and is pretty much a turn off.  Yet she would insist like "whats wrong why are you stopping? Just finish, its ok".

So we'd "finish" and then sometime shortly thereafter, I would get the very mild passive-aggressive "I cant believe you just did that... "  Well, did what? What do you mean?  "Rape me like that."  Whaaaaaaaaaaa?

So, now here we have someone who already has informed us of the sexual issues in her life, but using it when she wanted it in her ways, and sometimes (but not every time) then tossing that "R" word in afterwards? After she initiated (sometimes demanded) and insisted that you finish, least she rage about not finding her attractive, or getting it somewhere else, or being impotent, or homosexual [not that I believe there is anything wrong with that - but similar to a few convo's Red5 and I had, I guess it was supposed to be an assault on my masculinity in some way].

I guess for me, that is the mind F!($ right there.  For me that kinda treatment 1) feels like staging the scenario just to then be able to blame me, 2) to someone like myself, its an absolute horror and shock to then casually say "you raped me just now" because, well, you feel like you completely abhor yourself as a result, and 3) why did she just behave like that, and will that always be that way in the future? 

On some level, did she derive sexual gratification from that? If not physically... .emotionally? Another way of leveraging control in some way? I really don't know.  But these things, these inner desires and emotions we have when it comes to our physical intimacy with our partners are so, so very raw sometimes, that they seem like some of the most precious things about us that we want to protect.

For me it was offensive that she would capitalize on that aspect of our r/s in a way that sex was then weaponized. Something to use like a bittersweet poison or drug; you want it, she has it, under her terms she will let you sample some, but then it ends up hurting you anyways.  Because you knew it would be bad for you, but you just had to have some.

Did my ex (or anyone's pwBPD) know that for us, its a raw-nerve? That maybe sharing some of our sexual desires or needs made us so vulnerable that they could use that against us? Or, on the flip side, do their demands that we meet their sexual desires and needs in some specific way ultimately denigrate and humiliate us?  However it ends up working out in someone's own scenario, taint and toxicity surrounding an intimate act that we all should be able to share openly with our partners is some of the lowest of the low (in my opinion).

For my pwBPD, I think she knew that, and since she'd felt used before by many, she wanted to make sure you yourself would be used, vice her allowing herself to be used by you.   I dunno.  I think I sort of went off the rails with this reply BG, but it all began to flow out of somewhere, stream of conscious.  So I just went with it.  Apologies to the group.

[BreatheFirst]

I too saw the same things as LAT re sex. He was always pushing for it to be on his terms. He resisted foreplay and kissing like he just wanted the act of release most of the time. It was always over quick then too. He always wanted to initiate. When I tried most of the time I was rejected. I had never had this problem before with other guys. It never celt all that loving as he often did what he wanted and was annoyed when I asked for things a certain way. It was like he was annoyed at me. I don't understand why they are like they are about sex.