how to deal with appreciation demands while being starved

[Woodchuck]

My W lost her keyless remote to our car last week.  She apparently went for a walk late at night and was swinging the keychain and the remote came lose.  She texted me about 10:30 at night telling me that she had lost the remote.  I asked her where and she told me that she had gone for a walk.  She did not ask for help finding it but I decided the nice thing to do would be to go out and assist in looking for it.  After looking for about 15 mins, we ended up meeting.  I asked her which side of the road she had been walking on.  She stated that she didn’t remember.  I then asked her which route she took and she responded that she went around the loop.  I asked her which way she went and she started to get angry with me for asking questions.  I was simply trying to determine where she had been so I would not waste time looking in places she had not been.  She started yelling at me telling me that she was tired and I was being a jerk etc.  I told her that she was being rude and that I was not going to take it and walked away.  I continued to look for the remote for another hour or so and did not find it.  Afterwards, there was not any kind of appreciation for helping her look.  When I got home the next day, I discovered that she had her coworker/supervisor over to the house to help look for the remote.  I found it kind of odd but just let it go.  After they were done looking, she invited her coworker/supervisor in to sit down for a bit and get some water.  My W was very appreciative of her coworker/supervisor helping and thanked her over and over.  This really felt like a slap in the face.  The next morning, my W was making ‘lost’ posters to place around the neighborhood.  She told me later that if I loved her that I would have offered to help her continue to look and put up signs and that I should be showing appreciation for how hard she was working to find the remote.  I told her that I would like to help but I was not going to put myself in a position where I am going to be mistreated and that I felt like she was being very rude about the entire thing.  She proceeded to tell me that she didn’t need my help for anything and didn’t want me to do anything for her.  This is really nothing new but it is completely confusing as to how someone can expect or demand appreciation in a scenario like this but not feel like they should show appreciation for people trying to help.  I do feel like it was a good growing experience in the sense that I was able to calmly but firmly hold my ground.

WC

[Cat Familiar]

Woodchuck, you keep trying in spite of her lack of appreciation.     It's another example of "no good deed goes unpunished." Or "you can't get water from a dry well."

Or like playing the one-arm bandit over and over without winning a quarter. Do they still even have these types of slot machines?

I see you continuing to do the kind and loving thing, even though she doesn't see it, doesn't acknowledge it. You do it because that's who you are.   And she behaves the way she does, because that's who she is. 

I've seen you on different areas of these boards. What are you feeling about the future of your marriage?

Cat

[Skip]

I then asked her which route she took and she responded that she went around the loop.  I asked her which way she went and she started to get angry with me for asking questions.  I was simply trying to determine where she had been so I would not waste time looking in places she had not been.  She started yelling at me telling me that she was tired and I was being a jerk etc. 

Woodchuck,

A psychologist would tell you that the argument was not about the interface on the road, but about the ongoing conflict between the two of you which is not resolved.

She lost the key, but didn't ask for help... .there is a reason in her mind... .she wanted to avoid some negative thing between the two of you.  It's not a normal response.

You went out to help (very nice). Whatever that negative thing is, it got triggered, or she just flooded with emotion and took it out on you.

You fought back. It's not a normal response... .you wanted to avoid some negative thing between the two of you from prior experience. In most cases when one partner "floods", the other partner knows to back off and let the extinction burst attenuate.

My partner was upset with me for one days this weekend and lashed out at me over something that wasn't fair. I listened carefully. Didn't defend, didn't react. Then gave her a little space. The next morning I casually mentioned that I'm not sure what to do next time. Should I have handled in different; not come out to find the key; not sure. I presented this as my dilemma, I didn't ask for an answer. The next day I got an apology. And I figured out what she was really reacting to.

She sees this as strength. If I reacted, she would see it as petty and entrench further.

You have a bigger problem than I did... .the name calling is really bad. This is a values/boundary thing and you need to deal with it. Construct value/boundary, educate, defend when challenge, slowly tighten noose.

There is a lot of breakdown between the two of you. It is hard to reverse that.

My suggestions are not about being a doormat... .just an alternate tactic for being strong.

[formflier]

My partner was upset with me for one days this weekend and lashed out at me over something that wasn't fair. I listened carefully. Didn't defend, didn't react. Then gave her a little space. The next morning I casually mentioned that I'm not sure what to do next time. Should I have handled in different; not come out to find the key; not sure. I presented this as my dilemma, I didn't ask for an answer. The next day I got an apology. And I figured out what she was really reacting to.

She sees this as strength. If I reacted, she would see it as petty and entrench further.
 

Skip is quite a bit ahead of where I'm at.

My psychologist has done quite of bit of work with me to "be ok with other people being angry"... .and furthermore... ."to be ok with them being angry at me".

With a catchphrase in my head that many times "people just need space to be mad" and when that happens "to give them space".

All this assume the "space" they need is NOT inside your boundaries... those get defended... regardless of the emotion of the other person.

All the stuff I wrote above is "big picture", perhaps even "strategic stuff".  It's not about details... it's about how you are going to approach the relationship.

Let's transition to this very specific issue you faced.

My recommendation is/would have been... .

"Oh babe... .how frustrating that must be for you.  Would you like me to come out and help you look?" (pause... .wait for an answer)

We all know pwBPD are masters at "non answers" or even "indirect yet insulting answers"

"blah blah... .like you should even ask that... .can't you figure it out?"

(note... she didn't answer the question in my fictional response above... .and I guarantee you answering her question isn't going to help

My recommendation in this case is to gently validate, let her know you are standing by if she wants to reach out... . 

or you could go look... .validate and help her look but without the "questioning".

To end my post... .I want to praise you while shifting back to the big picture.

You are attempting to stand up for yourself... .that's a good thing.  I hope you keep using that energy and let us "focus" that energy a little bit differntly

FF

[Enabler]

Woodchuck,

I can empathise with this transaction, although my example related to a broken Pirex dish and a cut foot.

I jumped to help fetching dustpan and brush to clear up the minefield of glass, I was shouted at and verbally abused, I downed tools and walked away stating that I was not prepared to be shouted at. After tending to the kids I returned, she was still dysregulated and suggested she needed to go to A&E to have it stitched up... .This was over 2 years ago pre-new BPD knowledge... .I suggested that it probably didn't need stitching and invalidated her. This prompted more angry outbursts to which I said "why ask if you're just going to yell at me for giving you my opinion".

Anyway, I have since found out that she took this exchange, warped it such that I was utterly unhelpful, unsympathetic and horrible to her, unfairly got cross with her and behaved in "my usual hole way", bullied her out of going to the hospital. Her OM on the other hand rolled out the sympathy and it was gladly received... ."Glad you're ok, I was worried like a concerned child because I didn't know what was up and couldn't do anything about it! Although glimpsing you at the junction this morning showed me all might not be hunky dory anyway... .let me know you're alright after seeing the doc, will you?" So did the flying monkeys.

The reaction was part of a far far greater set of circumstances, one where she was mentally painting me black not only overtly but to other people in her sphere of influence. Despite showing genuine kindness, concern and care, she had no desire to see any situation differently and created her own thunderstorm of contempt. It suited her narrative to not see the positive intent in my attempts to rescue and only saw my reaction to her dysregulation. It's somewhat unavoidable when someone wants to be triggered and wants to see ill intent that they will find it without looking very hard or trying very hard to manipulate situations.

It's almost impossible to 'make' someone see the good in you if they don't want.

Enabler

[Red5]

Morning Woodchuck!

I was simply trying to determine where she had been so I would not waste time looking in places she had not been.  She started yelling at me telling me that she was tired and I was being a jerk etc.  I told her that she was being rude and that I was not going to take it and walked away.

Quite the same scenario happens to me also... .quite a lot,

I too... .now just walk away.

Nowadays... .if she is "in a pickle", or "up a tree" about something, .and I ask her if she needs my help (support)... .I'll ask only once if she needs my help, .and only once, .~> if her first response back is negative... .then her negative response is taken by me as "at her word"... .and then that's it... .ie' (for example) I may ask, ."do you want me to fill up your jeep with gas, as I have to go out for a minute anyways"... .she responds with  ... .well then;... . Red5 obeys, and immediately withdraws the "help offer" forthwith.

I move on, and "leave it to her"... .

I leave her to her own demise, her own consequences, her own "chosen path"... .

I long ago gave up on any form of "now just let me help you anyway, even though you just bit my head off"... .nope, d-o-n-e with that.

Yes, as Skip says, most likely unresolved anger... .?

My udx wife and I just came off of a fourteen day tour of LC/ST... .only to have a full blown meltdown in the local Lowes yesterday while I was looking at generator cables, .enroute to have lunch with her foo-mum (trigger), .

Another BPD'ism, is to FREAK out when a CAT IV hurricane is forecasted to arrive on your door step in three daze... .wow, I think I'm might have to ship her off someplace soon, .or I'm going to   her... . !

She proceeded to tell me that she didn’t need my help for anything and didn’t want me to do anything for her.

I get ^this^ ALL the time too !... .like a "broken record"... .oh' the stories I could tell... .

another example of "no good deed goes unpunished."

... .truth!

We all know pwBPD are masters at "non answers" or even "indirect yet insulting answers"

This is why we all need one of those "enigma machines" that Enabler has !... .so we can read backwards, between the lines, and we also need lots of lemons so we can read the invisible ink our beloved's are always using to write us the "you should know what I mean brain reading notes"... . !

Hang in there Woodchuck!

Another day on the front lines... .tomorrow it will be something else... .

Red5

[Skip]

So men, how do we know when if we are being:

  respectful/supportive (and no doormat)
  passive aggressive
  defensive/stonewalling/triggery

How do we check ourselves to know that we are not making things worse? continuing the cycle of conflict?

[Cat Familiar]

Like what Red5 mentioned, I no longer immediately jump in to help, assist, fix, organize, find, clean up after. Now I ask, "Would you like some help?" only once. And if he says, "No," then I figure I'm off the hook.   

[Skip]

OK, you caught me!

So men and women, how do we know when if we are being:

  respectful/supportive (and no doormat)
  passive aggressive
  defensive/stonewalling/triggery

This are subtle but monumental differences. How do we check ourselves to know that we are not making things worse? continuing the cycle of conflict?

[Notwendy]

My codependency 12 step group would be all over this one.

First - expectations. Stepping in to help someone - if we have any expectation then this is a danger sign. Sure, being appreciated is nice, but if we are going to do something helpful, it should not be dependent on the response or what the other person thinks. Jumping in to help to "prove" we are the nice ones is a recipe for drama.

Also- stepping in to help without the person asking could be experienced as invalidating to them, or intrusive. You asked, she said no. That was a boundary and you crossed it. She got angry ( which is expected when someone crosses the boundary) and that triggered you and you reacted.

Her reacting to you about the posters is her disordered thinking and expectations. You can't control how she thinks or acts, just your part. Reacting to that is perpetuating drama.

[Red5]

... .over and over we try, and each time we get the same result... .reminded me of this “classic”,
https://m.you.tube.com/watch?v=055wFyO6gag

Red5

[Woodchuck]

I should clarify that I did not go out to help with any expectations of appreciation.  The only reason that appreciation was brought up is because she attacked me for not appreciating how hard she was working on finding the remote.  That was further exacerbated by how she treated her coworker.  Honestly, the only expectation that I had was for her to tell me what a hero I was if I found it and waa glad in that sense that I didn’t.  Also, she didn’t say she didn’t need my help until
The day after.  She did not say anything about not wanting me to help when I found her while I was out looking for the remote.  She just got rude and nasty with her answers to my questions about what route she took.  If she had told me she didn’t want help at that point, I would have turned right around and went home.  Subconsciously, I may have been trying to prove that I am the nice guy but there was nothing disingenuine with my decision to go out and help.  I did not have the mentality of trying to show that I am better or nicer than her, going to help is just part of who I am.  I guess that is in part due to hearing that she does everything and I don’t love her, care about her, support her wtc and I really don’t want her to feel that way and my are more out if trying to fulfill the voids she communicates about rather than trying to prove I am a nice guy, though the two kind of go hand in hand. 

WC

[Skip]

What bucket would you say you were in?

  respectful/supportive (and no doormat)
  passive aggressive
  defensive/stonewalling/triggery
  other

[Woodchuck]

What bucket would you say you were in?

  respectful/supportive (and no doormat)
  passive aggressive
  defensive/stonewalling/triggery
  other

I would say that I was in the respectful/supportive no doormat bucket.  I have a habit of allowing myself to be a doormat but walked away when she started to be rude and continued to do what I could to find the remote. If she had told me that she didn’t want help, I would have had no problem calmly just walking away. 

WC

[formflier]

This are subtle but monumental differences. How do we check ourselves to know that we are not making things worse? continuing the cycle of conflict?

Good question.  I'll take a stab at answering.  Being military... I'll stick with that for analogy.

When someone sends rounds your way... .you are not obligated to shoot back.  Many of us, I certainly was this way, detect incoming rounds, yell "suppressing fire" and fire back to "keep the pwBPD's head down".

Translated to "english"... .do we "fight back" or do we realize we just got "shot at" and consider the best response.

Let's take Skip's example, I think earlier in this thread.  He got blasted for something, yet was centered enough to realize it was unreasonable and most likely not about him.  He held his fire, then next day mentioned it and moved along.  Then next day got an apology.

He he not delayed his action to a better time, very likely it wouldn't have turned out so well.

Last military analogy.  Part of our job here is to build up our armor and conserve energy.  So... when they blast at us... we don't have to "jump" out of the way, a slight pivot lets the shot "glance" off our armor... .and we really aren't damaged.

Then... if they decide to keep shootin... we can withdraw.

FF

[Woodchuck]

So last night, I failed and was not grounded and returned suppressing fire or actually probably just fired an unnecessary shot.  When I got home, my W was laying on the couch.  I was running around trying to get things packaged up to take to the Post Office.  I asked the kids what they wanted to have for dinner.  They told me that their mom had bought food to fix.  My wife chimed in that she would be more than happy for me to order something because she was exhausted.  At this point I should have just said that I was exhausted as well…... instead, I let words from the day before get to me.  She had attacked me for feeding the kids ‘junk food’ for dinner and I took her ‘offer’ for me to order something as a way for her to validate that I was just feeding them junk food.  That coupled with me having been at work for 12 hours and her shift only being 5 hours along with me still running around to try to take care of things while she was relaxing were all triggers that I did not manage properly.  I fired shots saying that I had been working 12 hours while she had only been working 5 and everything went down hill from there.  Had I been grounded, I would have validated the valid and moved on…...

WC

[Skip]

I would say that I was in the respectful/supportive no doormat bucket. 

I would have scored myself as defensive/stonewalling/triggery.

So last night, I failed and was not grounded and returned suppressing fire or actually probably just fired an unnecessary shot.  When I got home, my W was laying on the couch.  I was running around trying to get things packaged up to take to the Post Office.  I asked the kids what they wanted to have for dinner.  They told me that their mom had bought food to fix.  My wife chimed in that she would be more than happy for me to order something because she was exhausted.  At this point I should have just said that I was exhausted as well…... instead, I let words from the day before get to me.  She had attacked me for feeding the kids ‘junk food’ for dinner and I took her ‘offer’ for me to order something as a way for her to validate that I was just feeding them junk food.  That coupled with me having been at work for 12 hours and her shift only being 5 hours along with me still running around to try to take care of things while she was relaxing were all triggers that I did not manage properly.  I fired shots saying that I had been working 12 hours while she had only been working 5 and everything went down hill from there.  Had I been grounded, I would have validated the valid and moved on…...

Good. You are starting to exercise your inner critic and see this cycle of conflict.

Let's take all the safety words out.

I was running around trying to get things packaged up to take to the Post Office.  I asked the kids what they wanted to have for dinner.  They told me that their mom had bought food to fix.  My wife chimed in that she would be more than happy for me to order something because she was exhausted.

Fact: I, WC, attacked her for no reason.

Fact: Yesterday, WCW (wife) attacked me for no reason (car key incident).

We both do this, we both know that it is not good, but we do it because we feel justified based on our long ongoing disputes... .especially when we feel stressed.

Fair?

[juju2]

Hi friends,

It just dawned on me, all of our answers:

Switch spouses, significant others, on here.
Since they are incredibly kind and sweet to newcomers.

Then, we all can rinse and repeat, round robin, however you want to work it!

( of course!)

The other thing we could do is forget to remember the bad.   get rid of my ego.  Pause.
Pause. Pause.  Take a walk.
My answer could be, to incoming rounds,
"you might be right!  I am going to take a walk... ."

[Woodchuck]

Skip-
I am not sure how I would score myself as defensive/stonewalling when I went out to help her search for her lost remote.  I would score myself as a combination of that and passive/aggressive with the interaction last night.  Maybe I am missing something.  As  far as the facts that you presented, there were plenty of reasons for me to attack, however, none of them are good reasons.  I should have just validated that she was exhausted and went about doing what I needed to do.  I really just feel trapped because literally no matter what I do, she is going to find fault with it.  If I follow through with ordering food, it is just validating that I am feeding the kids ‘junk’.  If I don’t, I am not being understanding of her being exhausted.  On top of that, she works her 5 hour shift for her and her only.  There is no financial benefit that the family sees.  The 12 hour shift that I work goes towards paying 100% of the family expenses and all I hear is how I don’t do anything at work, don’t spend enough time with the family, don’t manage the budget good enough etc.  I could stomach her being ‘exhausted’ much more if anything that I did was valued at all instead of just being trampled all over.  To give maybe a clearer example of how it is impossible for me to do ‘right’, just yesterday, after we got home from church, I mentioned that she looked cute.  I was being 100% sincere, no under/overtones of any sort.  10 minutes later she sends me a text message stating that she does not want me to make any comments, positive or negative about how she looks.  If I have any opinions on how she looks, I should keep them to myself. 
With that said, did she attack me for no reason?  Yes/no.  She was tired/worn out/frustrated.  I get it.  I can take an attack and be understanding of that but when she treats someone else that is doing the exact same thing as I was completely opposite, it is a huge punch in the gut.  I invited myself to help her look and I get treated like crap.  Got it, she is frustrated and tired.  Her coworker invites herself over to help her look and gets treated with all kinds of appreciation and respect.  How am I am not supposed to be affected by that? 

I do not feel that my attack/response yesterday was justified.  I should have done better.  Just because there are reasons for it does not mean that it is justified.  On the other hand, she has told me that I deserve to be treated however she decides to treat me to pay for my past and that how she treats me doesn’t even begin to repay for my transgressions.

[Cat Familiar]

Woodchuck,
You are at the burnout stage. How can you not be? No matter what you do, somehow it's wrong. It's crazy making and that you're doing so well in spite of it is testament to your emotional health and strength. But it's not sustainable over time. She has chosen not to forgive you for events that transpired 12 years ago. And it seems that all your striving since then to be accountable and remorseful has come to naught.

So, what are you going to do? She seems totally unwilling to cede what she considers her moral high ground. You've tried counseling, affair repair seminars, etc. Nothing has budged her from this position. And likely it's because she doesn't want to give up any of what she considers to be power over you.

At this point, you will either decide to endure this or end this. It doesn't seem as though she will change, sad to say.

 
Cat

[Skip]

You might be missing my point... .

How am I am not supposed to be affected by that? 

She is likely thinking the same thing... .How am I am not supposed to be affected by him?

Could you two be in Hatfield & McCoy syndrome?

[Woodchuck]

Cat-
I do believe that you are right, I am burned out but I have always had the mentality that I can do whatever I put my mind to and have been successful with that mentality in almost everything.  As far as what to do, I really feel stuck and part of it is probably due to overthinking things.  Ideally, we would separate and she would find a place to live.  That would allow me to sell the house and find a more affordable place to live.  She is refusing to entertain finding her own place or even looking at drawing up a separation agreement.  So where does that leave me?  I could leave and find my own place but then I risk being accused of abandonment and the court does not look kindly on that.  I could pursue a divorce based on emotional/mental cruelty but my lawyer has said that is not likely to be successful as even getting a divorce based on physical cruelty is an uphill battle.  I could pay to have a separation agreement drafted and give it to her to sign, knowing that she probably won’t even read it, let alone sign it.  I could go out and openly have an affair to see if she would then make a move and file for divorce based on cause but that is just craziness and counterproductive etc, however it is an option.  I really don’t know what my best course of action is when I take everything into consideration.  As my lawyer said, she basically has me backed into a corner in almost every way.  I don’t expect her to change and don’t want her to change ‘just because’.  As I explained to her last night, I don’t want her to do/say anything for me with any kind of resentment or ‘just because’.  It really comes down to the heart, not the actual actions or words.  The words and actions come from where one’s heart is at and forcing/expecting anything else is not genuine or sustainable or even attractive.  I don’t take the time to tell her that I think she looks cute/nice because I believe she expects it or anything like that, I do it because I want to meet her needs/wants let her know that I think she is attractive.  The same goes for the whole remote issue.  I don’t do it because she expects me to, in fact I believe that regardless of how I would have reacted to that issue, there would have been something wrong with it but I went out in spite of my fears because I wanted to be helpful and supportive. 
If I could go and file for divorce today and move on, I would do that but unfortunately that is not possible.  Going forward, the best thing I can do is continue to focus on how I can make myself better and search for peace about the best course of action.  As of right now, I don’t have any peace about anything.


WC

[Skip]

As my lawyer said, she basically has me backed into a corner in almost every way. ... //...
If I could go and file for divorce today and move on, I would do that but unfortunately that is not possible. 

Are you saying that you feel she has blocked your ability to divorce?

[Woodchuck]

Skip-
I am not saying blocked but she has/is making it extremely difficult.  With her mentality, I don't 'blame' her.  She claims to have no interest in having a relationship with anyone so what is the downside to living in a house and not having any expense for the house, utilities, transportation etc and being able to see your kids whenever you want?  I am quite certain as someone pointed out in the Family Law board that as the 12 month period goes by that she will turn on her charm to keep the cycle going.  Whether that is conscious or subconscious, I have no idea.  I did tell her that I will no longer participate in mercy/pity sex and I will do everything I can to stand by that.  She has told me that she has just had sex for the last several years with no emotional/intimate connection.  I have felt that this is the way that things have been but she confirmed it verbally this past week.  One of the books that a member here suggested (Passionate Marriage) talks about mercy/pity sex and it describes our physical relationship quite accurately.  I don't want/need sex just for the physical aspects and the fact that it has been nothing more than that, makes me feel sick.  I crave the intimacy that goes with sex in a healthy relationship.  At this point, with where our relationship has gone, I do not believe it is possible and really just want to live in peace in my own environment. 

WC