A cautionary tale of why it’s not a good idea to bring uBPDp on a silent retreat

[Cat Familiar]

He never took all the money and disappeared, although had he done that at the beginning of the relationship, it would have been a godsend. 

He certainly wasted a lot of money on frivolous personal expenses. But like so many pwBPD, he didn't have the necessary organizational abilities to just follow through with his empty threats.

[snowglobe]

And then what?

Does he break up instantly?

Does he follow through on all his warnings and threats?

This is a common story here -- pwBPD threats used to control their partners out of fear. Their actions become your responsibility.

Your husband doesn't want to break up with you -- or he may feel that he wants that when dysregulated but doesn't have the executive control to follow through. What he wants is to make you do things that make him feel better. As long as you keep jumping at his threats, he's getting what he wants, and your toxic dynamic can't improve.

What do you think about ... .not jumping to save him or obey him when he makes a threat? Just see what he does instead.

@Flourdust,
You have explained it so detailed and clearly, that I’m compelled to try and see what happens.
He wasn’t getting to me earlier, so he moved over to our d15, perfectly healthy, fit and voluptuous. When he disregulates he starts calling her “fat, fatso, go on a diet, why do you have such thick bones? (She is a spitting image of him, gorgeous girl)”. I’ve had thousands of hundreds of conversation regarding how wrong and inappropriate his behaviour is. If it isn’t coming from doctor’s concern or her training performance, he weight isn’t any of any bodies business. I’ve seen too many children die from body dysmenorrhea, bulimia and anorexia to let this happen. I don’t allow scales in my house; if you are happy, healthy, strong and athletic it’s all that matter for me as a parent. He, on the other hand, uses her as a weapon to get to me, all the while knowing how it turns my buttons. Thankfully, she just leaves when he starts going after her.
He then produced to put on “Jews vs Palestinians” genre, his next favourite topic. Jews should exist, why didn’t Hitler wipe all the Jews from the face of the Earth?. Kill the Jews, good Jew is a dead Jew” is what I’m hearing from downstairs. All the while knowing that I belong to this group. I know whY he does that, he is looking for a reaction. If he truly hated Jews, he won’t marry one, let alone had children by one. Yet, I can’t help but feel that I want to take a shower after being in his presence, like I’ve been smeared in some kind of filth.

[snowglobe]

Let him not sleep.

You go/do whatever is needed to sleep.

Let him process his feelings about your need for rest.  Wouldn't it be best to stop talking about selling businesses, property taxes and other details.

Those things will be what they are.  Right now you need space to sleep so YOU can make better decisions.

FF

I’ll be leaving to sleep in my d15 bedroom tonight, I feel groggy, pissed and lethargic, not a good recipe for having a conversation. He is stuck in “my daughter is fat, my son is retarded and my wife is a Jew, and Jews deserve to die mood”, I want to let him feel the depth of his misery and hate for no reason. Just so I feel better I will lock my s11 bedroom and adjoined bathroom with my d15 so I can feel safe tonight.

[snowglobe]

Do you guys think that, once more threats are made a reply;
“You are a big boy, I’m sure you can handle whatever obstacles comes your way, you do YOU”
Without a note of sarcasm, is it a good way to distance myself?

[Cat Familiar]

My initial feeling is that comment will be inflammatory. PwBPD can so easily feel insulted even when we’re not trying.

[Notwendy]

 In general it’s best to use “I “ statements rather than “you”. That can be triggering. Simply say “ I need rest and I will sleep better in the other room”

When he makes a threat-“I hear how you feel and I’m too tired to discuss it now- we can talk in the morning “.

What he’s saying is his own wretched projections. Just be sure his “jews deserve to die “ comment is not a threat of violence. It’s a scary statement and I wouldn’t hesitate to call police on that if it were a threat. Although it’s a disgusting thing to say, he may also be pushing your buttons with it.

[snowglobe]

In general it’s best to use “I “ statements rather than “you”. That can be triggering. Simply say “ I need rest and I will sleep better in the other room”

When he makes a threat-“I hear how you feel and I’m too tired to discuss it now- we can talk in the morning “.

What he’s saying is his own wretched projections. Just be sure his “jews deserve to die “ comment is not a threat of violence. It’s a scary statement and I wouldn’t hesitate to call police on that if it were a threat. Although it’s a disgusting thing to say, he may also be pushing your buttons with it.

He does “too bad Hitler didn’t finish his mission” only when I’m too Zen to react to his snarls and pick one. His “my daughter is a fatso” is just as disturbing and causes distress for me as a parent. For that reason I have reached out to school my daughter is currently in to provide her with school psychologist to talk to. I’m seeing things that I have been trying to ignore- my husband is a dangerous individual for myself and my children physically and emotionally.

[snowglobe]

I’m also perplexed and confused at how to respond best-
He was downstairs watching “Palestinians killing Jews” series, and making remarks, “kill those filthy Jews, smash them with a washer... .I tried not to listen. As soon as I was done cleaning, I just walked upstairs to iron a fresh load of loundry. My best friend called me, and I was chatting for about an hour. He kept on calling me from downstairs a few times. Every time I would peak out and ask him what’s up, he’s say something outrageous, such as “look, they are almost done slaughtering those pigs”, I’d just wave in a dismiss and walk back into our bedroom and keep on chatting to distract myself. Finally, he called me “mama”, as he often does, and said “are you going to spend the whole day on the phone?.” When I saw that he switches off the Chanel, I excused myself and came down to sit beside him to watch some tv with s11 and my mom who had joined us. Few minutes into a horror movie he looked at me and said “I told you to put the house for sale and get the car on lease busters, why don’t it done”. To that, my anxiety went into a full force mode but I kept myself composed. He then said “go, write me a promissory note that you will do both of those things tomorrow”. I told him that I was watching the movie, and looked straight ahead. He jumpy off of the couch immediately, grabbed his phone and went upstairs.
Questions:
1. Why call me downstairs then?
2. How long is he going to do that?
3. How do I stop myself from developing hate and rage 2 days after the retreat?

[formflier]

Why be around someone that is talking about killing your kin?

FF

[snowglobe]

Why be around someone that is talking about killing your kin?

FF

Exactly my thought... .I removed myself from the scene and dodged all provocations so far. I sense he is getting into his violent mode. Called me from upstairs: “why is the clean ironed clothes on the bed (he hates when I do anything other then cook for him, bake his favourite pastry, massage his feet, entertain him or praise his ego, or, in case he is feeling blue, as he does now, he still wants me to come around to soothe him, only so he can kick my hand away. Not today Satan, not today.
Continued: “why isn’t car on the lease busters yet, why isn’t the house up for sale? Oh, because you don’t want to sell it? (Sinister smile on his face and this unhealthy glow in his eyes), well... .(pregnant pause) then you better find a job to pay for it.” At that point I removed all laundry from the bed and walked out of the room. I’m downstairs being mindful, looking at my s11 and enjoying relative quiet time.  He yelled from upstairs “can I sleep alone tonight?” (I wanted to reply “sure you can, in fact I would prefer it, but I’m sleeping in my own bed”) but I just stayed quiet.
What would have a child have to endure to become such abusive, miserable and grim human being?

[formflier]

Perhaps a more clear question... why be in same home with him.  Especially if he is "in violent" mode.

Not just other room... .let him know you are willing to talk when things calm.

Nothing changes... .unless things change.  You know his cycles... .why stick around for violence?

FF

[Notwendy]

What is your boundary on this kind of speech and this attitude? On another thread to FF I discussed personal insults like "You are not a Christian" as a means of projecting pain. But she isn't making sweeping statements about Christians in general. I think your H is making verbally abusive statement from a place of pain, but these are sweeping anti-Semitic statements. It's meant to hurt you, and yet, isn't just about you. It includes your children- who are also Jewish and also your parents and an entire group of people.

[formflier]

Yes... .Notwendy expressed that in a much better way than I did.

I would double down on the concern here, because the sweeping statement is not "just racist"... it's not "just stereotyping.

OK... clarity... .FF doesn't believe any of this... I'm giving examples.

Stereotypical racist statement that is bad

"All Jews care about is money, you are a Jew so I know that you are after my money... ."  (that's bad and certainly a level of concern)

However... what your hubby is saying seems exponentially worse...

"All Jews don't deserve to live, I like watching videos about "cleansing" the earth of Jews, you are a Jew, my children are Jews... .no Jew deserves to exist"  (I get it he didn't actually say all these things... but the implications are there)

 

FF

[snowglobe]

@NonWendy and @Ff,
These anti Semitic remarks come up about once a year, when he wants a rapid release of negative energy. My entire family has been affected by WW2, entire generations of people wiped out. He is feeding off pain and shock it produces. Do I entirely believe he has these strong feelings within him? I’m not sure, does he use every method available to Drag me into this turmoil? Yes?
Partner called this morning asking if things are better, to which I replied not entirely. He says he “needs him” to come, to separate from me for a while and “let the man make his own decisions about life”. According to partner our turmoil is affecting his work performance?. He wants to take him shooting, do boys stuff.
I’m reluctant to let him go on his own in the midst of crisis. He is vulnerable. I don’t want to establish a habit of “every time we have a problem, I run away”. In reality he is having a problem, and I’m coping with it. I can not separate time away from a man I don’t trust not to cheat, indulge in drugs and alcohol, not to make unsound financial decision. I also don’t want the partner to project his values into my uBPDh.
The same partner is telling me that he observed me put out 300% in the relationships, and suggesting that if I let him go alone from time to time, he will understand the value

[formflier]

I don’t want to establish a habit of “every time we have a problem, I run away”. 


The same partner is telling me that he observed me put out 300% in the relationships, and suggesting that if I let him go alone from time to time, he will understand the value

I would like for you to ONCE let him have a problem... .and have you run away... and stay away.  let him totally... 100% deal with it on his own.

I'm not a fan of the partner, yet I can't find anything to argue with in what he said to you.

FF

[snowglobe]

I would like for you to ONCE let him have a problem... .and have you run away... and stay away.  let him totally... 100% deal with it on his own.

I'm not a fan of the partner, yet I can't find anything to argue with in what he said to you.

FF

@Ff,
I can’t breathe, I’m having a panic attach. Went to gator surgeon this morning for my stomach problems. They booked me for medical procedure for the 28th, but said that most likely my issues are stress induced.
He called me while I was there for me to come home. We have a cleaning lady once a month to help my mom manage a big home, and she happened to be here this morning.
As I walked in, he asked if I had put the car up on the lease busters and home for sale. He also said that he is giving me two hours to do that.
Ff, for a child that grew up in severe poverty, this “house” is a huge trigger. I’m so hurt and devastated that he is trying to get me homeless. 

[snowglobe]

I would like for you to ONCE let him have a problem... .and have you run away... and stay away.  let him totally... 100% deal with it on his own.

I'm not a fan of the partner, yet I can't find anything to argue with in what he said to you.

FF

CD, I have a very small amount saved for the “rainy day”, without his help financially I will last one month.
There is absolutely no base to selling the house, other then him knowing it’s a trigger for me.
I’m compelled to go to his office and ask him to come down. Then I will tell him that I’m not doing anything, and hand him the papers for both cars, and the house. If he wants to do it, then he should do it himself.
I also phoned city based dbt clinic to start the treatment. If I can have a professional help to go through this, maybe this time I could pull through? He won’t stop, next thing would be him “leaving me and divorcing me”.

[flourdust]

All the stuff he is saying is horrible. It also sounds like the way he is ramping up is an extinction burst. Do you know about these? Because you aren't jumping up to soothe him when he makes his threats and demands, he is acting out even more dramatically.

Extinction Bursts can be terrifying to experience ... .and to try to weather. They can also be a sign that you are successfully breaking the cycle.

If you're concerned about physical violence toward you, please take the Mosaic Assessment. This is a quick, anonymous online survey that will analyze your domestic situation (based on expert research) and give you a threat assessment. Definitely worth a few minutes! Let us know what your score is and we can advise you further.

I think you've described good detachment in your responses over the last day ... .you'll note that he hasn't immediately broken up and cut you off, as he threatened!

BUT ... .full stop here!

@NonWendy and @Ff,
I’m reluctant to let him go on his own in the midst of crisis. He is vulnerable. I don’t want to establish a habit of “every time we have a problem, I run away”. In reality he is having a problem, and I’m coping with it. I can not separate time away from a man I don’t trust not to cheat, indulge in drugs and alcohol, not to make unsound financial decision.

Can you see what's going on in your thinking here? This is exactly what we started talking about yesterday -- your inclination to parent him, make his decisions for him, and control him out of your own fear.

Let it go.

He's an adult. He will do what he's going to do. Let him do it. Respond to his actual actions, not his threats, and NOT your fear of his potential actions.

In taking back your own autonomy, you have to return his to him as well.

Can you try this?

[Notwendy]

I'm with FF here- ( this isn't a gang up).

Your H is strung out on something ( don't know what-drugs, nicotine, his own emotional stuff?) and you are getting yourself physically ill trying to protect him from his own self destructive behavior. He's called your daughter fat, your son retarded and made disgusting anti-Semitic remarks and there are no consequences for this to him?

Why should he change? Makes horrible statements and he gets his feet rubbed? Does drugs and you stay up all night with him to help protect him?

When I asked where are your boundaries, if someone besides him said all Jews should die to you whether or not they meant it, would you make excuses for that? It's OK to call your child fat or retarded? So long as you continue your behaviors- caring, rubbing his feet and doing all you can to keep him from experiencing any consequences of his behaviors- they will continue. He has no incentive to stop them.

[snowglobe]

All the stuff he is saying is horrible. It also sounds like the way he is ramping up is an extinction burst. Do you know about these? Because you aren't jumping up to soothe him when he makes his threats and demands, he is acting out even more dramatically.

Extinction Bursts can be terrifying to experience ... .and to try to weather. They can also be a sign that you are successfully breaking the cycle.

If you're concerned about physical violence toward you, please take the Mosaic Assessment. This is a quick, anonymous online survey that will analyze your domestic situation (based on expert research) and give you a threat assessment. Definitely worth a few minutes! Let us know what your score is and we can advise you further.

I think you've described good detachment in your responses over the last day ... .you'll note that he hasn't immediately broken up and cut you off, as he threatened!

BUT ... .full stop here!

Can you see what's going on in your thinking here? This is exactly what we started talking about yesterday -- your inclination to parent him, make his decisions for him, and control him out of your own fear.

Let it go.

He's an adult. He will do what he's going to do. Let him do it. Respond to his actual actions, not his threats, and NOT your fear of his potential actions.

In taking back your own autonomy, you have to return his to him as well.

Can you try this?

Flourdust,
This was exactly what’s happenening, the extinction bursts. What do I do and how do I deal with this? Can you please help me seeing it through without making matters worse. I broke down in tears, sobbing and fear of becoming homeless, again on the floor. I was 9 at the time my bio father left us penniless, I still remember that fear of going hungry and having no money to pay for subway, whilst my dad was rolling in money. He was also punishing my mom. His objective was to have me come and stay with him for the “comfortable life”, while my mom suffered. I endured it with her. I’m reliving my trauma... .

[snowglobe]

I’m in a crisis guys, I can’t see or think straight, I need someone to turn the mirror on to me and help me see this through

[formflier]

I’m in a crisis guys, I can’t see or think straight, I need someone to turn the mirror on to me and help me see this through

I agree.

You are very analytical about his patterns.  Use that skill to your patterns.  Then... regardless of how it "Feels"... do a different pattern.

Don't parent him... .let him fail.  (guess what... he may not fail... or he may)

FF

[flourdust]

Flourdust,
This was exactly what’s happenening, the extinction bursts. What do I do and how do I deal with this? Can you please help me seeing it through without making matters worse. I broke down in tears, sobbing and fear of becoming homeless, again on the floor.

This is horrible to experience. You don't deserve this kind of treatment.

What helped me ... .and continues to help me ... .with my own (ex-)wife is to respond only to her actions, not her words. Use that as a mantra: "actions, not words."

He runs his mouth nonstop about selling the house, cutting off your funds, leaving you... .

Horrible threats.

But just words.

Ignore them, as best you can. Your blood pressure will still go up, you'll get tunnel-vision ... .use meditation and stress-reduction techniques to manage your physiological symptoms. (I find a 30 second breathing exercise or mindfully counting things I can perceive with all five senses to be helpful.)

If he ever actually does any of these things -- you have options for responding. Legal options, financial options, etc. During calm times, you might even want to consult with experts and research those, so you have some knowledge in your back pocket.

But you won't need any of that unless he takes action. Respond only to actions ... .not words.

Actions, not words. (Repeat after me.)

[Notwendy]

I think that what happened in your childhood is driving the fears that are driving your behaviors now.

But you were a child then and you are not one now.

If he leaves you, there may be some tough financial times, but you are an adult. You have the ability to get resources- social services, stay with your parents.

Your father didn't just abandon the family financially, he abandoned you emotionally. I suspect this is behind the trauma. You may be experiencing financial security as security/love but what your H is doing is not being loving. He's too sick to do this.

Why do we recreate childhood trauma in our relationships? One theory is so that we can ( hopefully) resolve it. Rewrite the story. Your father abandoned you and you suffered. As a child you could not fend for yourself. Your H - if he abandoned you- you may have a hardship but the rest of the story- you are the adult in charge. You could prevail- go back to school, get a job, ---a child doesn't have choices. An adult does. You have more potential control over the rest of this story.

It's your fears that are keeping you in this pattern with your H. You have the power to change this. It isn't easy but you have the choice to do it.

[snowglobe]

This is horrible to experience. You don't deserve this kind of treatment.

What helped me ... .and continues to help me ... .with my own (ex-)wife is to respond only to her actions, not her words. Use that as a mantra: "actions, not words."

He runs his mouth nonstop about selling the house, cutting off your funds, leaving you... .

Horrible threats.

But just words.

Ignore them, as best you can. Your blood pressure will still go up, you'll get tunnel-vision ... .use meditation and stress-reduction techniques to manage your physiological symptoms. (I find a 30 second breathing exercise or mindfully counting things I can perceive with all five senses to be helpful.)

If he ever actually does any of these things -- you have options for responding. Legal options, financial options, etc. During calm times, you might even want to consult with experts and research those, so you have some knowledge in your back pocket.

But you won't need any of that unless he takes action. Respond only to actions ... .not words.

Actions, not words. (Repeat after me.)

Actions, not words, did some breathing and stopped crying for now. I want to get rid of his expensive car, it will ease the financial burden. Yet, I can’t help but think the way he got it. After yet another birthday was ruined and not acknowledged last year, he disappeared for a day. When he came back, he drove from another city with a super luxury expensive car. It’s one of the top 3 brands and series in the world. He presented it as a “birthday surprise”, for ruining my actual birthday.
The first thing that he now wants to get rid of is, (drum roll) the same vehicle. He didn’t consult with me, when he leased it, yet now, I’m somehow responsible for getting rid of it. I need to consult with a lawyer, just so I can have a clearer picture of what can potentially come out should he go through with it. If he leaves and takes the car with him, he is virtually leaving me with no transport for driving the children.

[Notwendy]

 I think there is a tendency to catastrophize and also to bring in old resentments. If he wants to sell the car- why do you have to do it. If he wants to sell the house- it isn't your issue to fix. He's dysregulated- saying things he may or may not mean. You don't have to jump in and react to what he says. It's also got you worrying about the worst case scenario.

I think it would be a good idea to consult a lawyer and see what exactly would be your situation should he take off and leave the family with no means of support. I don't even know if that is legal. Don't let you fears get the best of you. It wouldn't be easy but it would not mean you would all perish. I think you have resources. I don't know the whole picture but you have your parents, you have friends who might carpool with you ( take on driving the kids for the moment) , there are social services. Speaking to a lawyer can help you get facts, not just decide on fears.

[Harri]

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Part 2 can be found here: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=329189.0