Family finances; healthy management or unhealthy control | Part 1

[Fian]

I am not arguing with your rule of no money if not respectful (although I don't agree with it).  What I am arguing about is tying an apology to it as well.  It appears you are trying to force an apology, using the money as a carrot (or stick depending on how you look at it).  My advice is to keep the items separate.  Seek reconciliation outside of getting money.

One other observation.  We had a separate thread where we discussed prayer approach versus your financial boundary approach.  You said that your wife is resentful and does not respect you.  I would argue that is the logical conclusion of your approach.  I understand your desire to keep some financial stability in your home, but you can do that without the rule of you only get money if you ask nicely.  She will rightly see you as using money as a lever to reward/punish her behavior.

Of course, you may feel vulnerable losing control and wonder what motivation your wife will have to speak to you respectfully, if she gets the money anyway.  My suggestion is to pray and fast.  To be honest, this is the perfect opportunity to put it into practice and see what happens, when you give up all the incentives for her to speak to you respectfully.  What have you got to lose?

[formflier]

So... .flip it around.

Would any of us recommend... "blah blah blah you did the lady down the street... you are not a Christian and I need $50... or else I will tell the children"

FF opens wallet and hands $50?

And... would you advise other members for the same thing... .on other topics other "levers".   

I'm not seeing the value to my relationship of honoring disrespect... anyone's relationship for that matter.

Umm... .there is a lot of money to loose.  Track record says it will be gone.

FF

[Fian]

So... .flip it around.

Would any of us recommend... "blah blah blah you did the lady down the street... you are not a Christian and I need $50... or else I will tell the children"

FF opens wallet and hands $50?

And... would you advise other members for the same thing... .on other topics other "levers".   

I'm not seeing the value to my relationship of honoring disrespect... anyone's relationship for that matter.

Umm... .there is a lot of money to loose.  Track record says it will be gone.

FF

Sure, just make it clear the $50 is not due to a threat.  But let's get back to the last part, "Umm... .there is a lot of money to loose.  Track record says it will be gone."

If she asks nicely, are you going to give all of the money to her?  No, you will still hold her to a budget.  It doesn't matter if she asks nicely or not, there is a limit on how much you will give.  On the other hand, if you drop the rule, ask nicely or no money, I am not saying that you give her money every single time she asks.  Instead, you would evaluate the request based on its reasonableness and what the family can afford.  You would just be dropping the requirement that she must ask nicely.

[Notwendy]

It would depend on what the money is for. And also, the two issues could be separated as Fian said- tying the money to how she speaks to you may be combining two issues that would be better handled separately.

You have 8 kids (I know some are away at school probably eating there) but that means a lot of driving and a lot of kids to feed. "I need $50 for gas and groceries" seems like a reasonable request. Something else may be up for discussion.

When you tie the money to her behavior, you are controlling her, and also she learns that being manipulative " I will ask nicely so I can get the money" leads her to behave insincerely. This may get you the behavior you want but with a boatload of resentment on her part and fake affection or respect.

You may get the behavior you seek but with an emotional price to your relationship. I guess this is what you are choosing between.

"You are seeing another woman, you are not a Christian" that's pink elephant junk. It pushes your buttons.  These kinds of statements are hurtful- they push your own buttons. This comes from a hurting person in victim mode and this person is hurting outwards at you and choosing to say hurtful statements- they hit at a sensitive place. Being a Christian is a major part of your identity.

When I had an argument with my H, he would say hurtful things about my career. That was a sore spot for me as I was working part time and not advancing like full time workers did, but I was also managing the home and kids mostly on my own. So then he would also say critical things about that. These were not as sensitive as religion, but still hurt. In the moment, he said them as he was hurting. In the case with my mother, if she was really angry about me she would say really hurtful things about my father, or she'd say she had something of his that I wanted and won't let me have it. Pretty cruel to say this to a daughter right after he died. But she meant for that to hurt.

What is my boundary? It isn't about necessities like money, or sex, or taking care of the home/kids. I still send my mother gifts for her birthday and holidays. They aren't contingent on if she says something mean to me or not. My boundary is on the behavior. If my mother brings up my father- the conversation ends. I won't listen to that. If my H were to say something mean about my job or the home - it's a pink elephant. The conversation stops. I won't listen to it.

Once you take the power out of your wife's words , you may find she uses them less. You know who you are- you don't cheat, you know you are a Christian. I know I have done my best at work and home, and I loved my father. What people say may hurt in the moment but it doesn't change who I am.

I don't think you need to do unlimited money. I have seen this kind of thing throw my parents into debt. But tying this need to your wife's speaking to you nicely or apologizing is also possibly damaging. Perhaps there needs to be some revision of the budget. Rather than have her need to ask you for money beyond her earnings, is there a way to add a certain amount to that so she isn't having to ask you for things like gas money and groceries?

[formflier]

  You would just be dropping the requirement that she must ask nicely.

And how would this benefit our relationship? 

Seriously... .take the example of an ATM.  It works a certain way.  If you cuss it... .money doesn't come out.  If your follow the "directions".  You get access to your account.

By "playing along" with the notion that using disrespect... cussing... threats equals access to "your account", isn't that validating the invalid or "enabling" bad behavior.

The "control" is a matter of perspective.  Am I controlling her... .sure... but that's not my focus.  My focus is on controlling access to my values... my money that are tied to those values.  And... I don't just do this for my wife... that's how my money works.  I'll respect peoples decisions to do it either way.

I'm trying to get the point you guys are making... I really am.  Let's keep going.

Do you guys advocate this for just money or for other parts of relationships.   Do we really want to advocate "untethering"  respectful words to things "inside our boundaries".    Perhaps there is a benefit to it that I'm not seeing yet.

FF

[Notwendy]

This concerns money for basic needs of your family- gas, groceries, clothing, school supplies.

Does the sun still rise in the morning if we cuss, act disrespectful? Yes. Does money fall from trees? No. But our basics- sun, water, food growing on its own, are provided. You are the head of the household spiritually and if you are able to afford the basic needs of your family, why should they have to behave in the way you feel they need to for those? For other things, they can ask, discuss, work for if need be.

Why does your wife have to continuously ask you for necessities if you are able to afford them? Yes, she has her own money but does a teacher earn enough to provide these things for 8 kids? I don't think so. I'm not discussing unlimited funds or money for something frivolous but I would find it humiliating to have to behave in a contrite way to get grocery money for food we need.  I work as well, but I earn less and my salary doesn't cover everything we do as a family. Also, if I buy groceries, it isn't just for me. I don't bring them home, cook them and eat them all myself. The family eats and so does my H.

I would find it humiliating to have to ask if I needed underwear, or shampoo or tampons for a teen age girl. I can manage these out of the household budget. However, if I were to consider a large purchase, this would need to be discussed. This ventures into the area of financial infidelity. A large sum of money should be discussed, but $50 for gas when I am driving a car load of kids around being contingent on "asking nicely and behaving" would venture into being controlling IMHO.

I am not talking about excessive spending but I do think some agreements in a marriage should not be contingent on someone being angry and saying something insulting. I think the insults are something to deal with in isolation.  I don't think spouses should be disrespectful of each other, but that is a marital problem. In the meantime ,your family still needs to eat, and the car needs gasoline for the family to function.

[juju2]

Hi ff,

i feel the same way, was resentful that his attitude of disdain towards me was often expressed, all the support i gave, only now am i hearing the good things i did for him... .  its been one of the hardest things.

guess it depends on my attitude.  When his attitude stank towards me, my attitude stank too.
Its like it was contageous.  When i can get away from personalities (his bad attitude) and move toward principles (i support my loved ones), i am less likely to get in to manipulation.  I want to be me, a person who can somehow take the high road.

Its not easy and it has to be intentional on my part.

Best,
j

[formflier]

  why should they have to behave in the way you feel they need to for those? For other things, they can ask, discuss, work for if need be.
 

Notwendy

Because that's how life works... at least for me anyway.

Behavior matters.  If you cuss the cook enough... .food will stop showing up.

Have you gone back to cooking dinner for your hubby... regardless of what he says (hopefully remembering your experience correctly)

There are multiple lessons here that matter to me, I'll respect my wife's decision either way if they matter to her.

Had my wife had some forethought and made more plans... I'm quite positive I would have happily funded the card with gas money.  She made a choice to not think ahead... .then she made a choice to ask me via email... .and then she made a choice of how to respond to me not being available at that instant she needed something.

Rather than repeating an analogy... .you can take the one I used here an apply it to this, because my thinking is the same.

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=329126.new#new

I used to try and be super flexible ... .super forgiving... .whatever she needed I would accommodate.  Now... .I serve a very small "slice" of "customers".  My wife has a choice of where she wants to shop... .I'm going to be the store that works for me and my values.

Should she leave the cart in the parking lot... .i'm not going to go against my values to get her quarter back... .she knows how to get it and she has every right to chose to leave it behind.  I'll respect her decision either way.

Will lots of people think I'm a (insert whatever) for doing that... .I'm sure they will.  That's ok.

Now, that being said... sometimes nuance matters.  She did the cussing after the fact, not before and it very well may be that I'm setting precedent here.  When that comes up, I try to be super careful with that, because last thing I want to do is "keep changing the rules"... ."the instructions" as they may be.

FF

[Fian]

And how would this benefit our relationship? 

I see a couple of areas.  First, based on your wife's cussing, it appears that your relationship has reached a toxic level.  I believe your money approach is part of the reason why your wife is so resentful and has so little respect.  By stopping it, you can at least stop adding fuel to the fire there, plus it gives you the opportunity to repair it over time.

The other thing is it will force you in directions you have avoided going.  My advice was to take the prayer approach, but it appears you don't want to take that route.  The other thing it is going to force you to do is talk to your wife.  Your current approach as I see it is to control her behavior with boundaries, safe behind castle walls.  If she complains, you offer to sit down and talk with her, but you put the ball in her court, and she rarely chooses that route.  Now, without your financial lever, it makes you vulnerable.  You can't force her to show you respect.  Your only option when she is disrespectful, is to initiate the conversation yourself.  Tell her that it hurt when she spoke to you in such a way.

From my perspective, the talking accomplishes several things.  First of all, don't expect to win the argument.  From my experience, even with nons, it is extremely rare for them to say at the end of the conversation, "You are right, I was wrong."   But often later, you will see their behavior changing or even using your arguments as if they believed them.  Second, women feel a connection from talking.  It is actually something that my wife and I are doing intentionally to make our marriage better - blocking time to just talk about anything.  By taking time to talk about issues, I think it will deepen your wife's connection to you, improving your marriage.  Third, your wife won't like being the perpetrator in the discussion.  She will do what she can to avoid that being in that role, changing her behavior in the future.  

I don't think this is a magic bullet that will fix all marital problems, but it is another approach for you to solve things when you give up the financial lever.  I still think that prayer is the most effective way to solve major marital problems.

[formflier]

I think I see some of the disconnect.  By and large... been there done that... failed.  I won't try and approach that doesn't work for me... especially if I've tried it multiple times.

   First, based on your wife's cussing, it appears that your relationship has reached a toxic level.

Less cussing now that a couple years ago... .more cussing that over the summer.  To put this in context.  This is the first "effe you" to my face in... .perhaps a year.  Part of the "disconnect" between letting things go and moving on and holding on to old things is I don't have an exact idea of things like this back in time.

For instance... .one divorce threat in past year was at beginning of July.  I can't remember the one before then.

 I believe your money approach is part of the reason why your wife is so resentful and has so little respect.  By stopping it, you can at least stop adding fuel to the fire there, plus it gives you the opportunity to repair it over time.

I don't see how I stop this without "validating the invalid"... .that there are not consequences for bad behavior.

It's obvious you are not suggesting "no limits" (at least I don't think you are).  So... .why should anyone put up with (perhaps enable) bad behavior.  Doesn't that get into "intermittent reinforcement.

Sometimes I can cuss my hubby and it turns out ok... sometimes I can't.

Versus... ."my hubby doesn't put up with people cussing him"

The other thing is it will force you in directions you have avoided going.  My advice was to take the prayer approach, but it appears you don't want to take that route.  The other thing it is going to force you to do is talk to your wife.

Yet I can't force my wife to talk to me.  Door is open... .

 Your current approach as I see it is to control her behavior with boundaries, safe behind castle walls.  If she complains, you offer to sit down and talk with her, but you put the ball in her court, and she rarely chooses that route.  

Well... .I can see how some could see this as about her... .and in a way it is.  I think it's more about me.  I've chosen to live behind the castle wall.  That controls lots of people's behavior.  That being said, we teach and I believe that boundaries are NOT about the other person... they are about you.

I don't to (that... fill in blank)... .it doesn't work for me.  Other people may feel controlled, but it's really not about them.

I would suggest you might have more of a point if I was "selective" and treated my wife one way... .and everyone else another way.  The door is the same... .it takes the same "key" to talk through it, regardless if you are my wife... .or crazy neighbor in another state or my child.

I don't post about it much here... .but I'm assuming you can imagine the hoops my kids jump through to "get to" Dad's money.

Am I controlling them... I suppose.  But making my kid do a spreadsheet and showing me with numbers how something is going to work... .I dunno, seems like the right way for me to teach my values and "business sense".  They very well may reject it once they are out on their own. 

FF

[flourdust]

You said you've done just about all you can do to improve the marriage. I'm curious -- other than enforcing strict boundaries (which I'd hesitate to call an improvement strategy), what have you done?

[Notwendy]

I get the connection to the dinner cooking, but one difference is that, he would be OK if I did or didn't cook. He has access to the food and the kitchen. However, I also don't cook on the basis of his behavior. I cook for several reasons- a main one is that, we all have to eat and cooking family style includes the family. I don't cook for myself and the kids and keep him from the dinner table. I did cook out of fear of him getting angry- and I don't think that was a good mindset to be doing that from.

I think we all have our deal breakers and they can be different ones. There are several ways to manage income in a family and you have the right to do this how you wish. There are also consequences to how this is arranged. It is certainly an emotional topic in a marriage.

I think the reason some of us are proposing something different is that this could be the hill your marriage dissolves on. You can keep your position, but it could drive your marriage further down the road of destruction. Even if you choose not to divorce- the two of you are still living in a home together, raising kids and it could add to the emotional toxicity between you.

She's probably not going to change- if she has BPD it leads to disordered, impulsive behaviors. Using money to control her behaviors may work- and it can also work with a teen with behavior problems- the chip reward method is effective with kids. It's also effective with adults- if they don't go to work, no paycheck, or if they act inappropriately at work- they get fired. But does this same method work in a marriage? A spouse is not an employee or a child.

[BPDFamily]

Topic continuation here https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=329153.0