Trying to reverse a breakup that I initiated.

[1stTimer]

I'm not sure if this is the right board for this, I have another thread "I just broke up with a new gf' in Detaching but that is not what I am trying to do so I thought this board might have people who are in more or less my boat/mindset.

In any event I'm considering reaching out again and am trying to get some input before I do it this time since often I knee-jerk react (thus the break-up) or overcompensate (a whole dumb Grand Gesture story I won't bore you with( and want to do neither. Well: when I say often I mean in my recent return to dating after several years hiatus for various reasons and find I've brought some bad habits from family issues I dealt with into my romantic relationships (and a healthy dose I guess of hitherto unexperienced insecurity to be totally honest).

The summary is I met this utterly fabulous Chinese woman, we hit it off immediately. Issue one is she speaks very little English, I now speak 4 words of Chinese one of which is "Cheers!". Issue two is she is here on a cycling 6-month visa which runs out in 3 weeks (in fact it was last week but she extended it). Despite the language we got close very fast, she was clear at the start too that she is not "an American girl" that she does not jump in bed and wanted to be my girlfriend, get closer, have a relationship and reallllly liked me and I was the first man she'd been intimate with in a year since he divorce (despite a lot of suitors, she is very pretty, stylish and very socially active).  She is decidedly devoid of BPD characteristics, just the opposite in fact.  She invited me very early on to come to stay with her in China, and more than a couple times would look in the sky at a plane and say "oh look. a plane. it is on the way to Chengdu, 1sttimer is in it on his way to see me". She even offered to pay all my expenses.

She has had me come to 2 or 3 events with different sets of great friends, all of whom were very welcoming and made much of the evening either discussing our relationship or telling me how much she gushes about how great I am to her, how well I treat her, or her telling anecdotes about me/us.  At least one of her friends will translate at each event asking me what I like about her, are we serious. She herself expresses surprise (even shock) I like her: "YOU like ME? REALLY? REALLY? What do you like? Tell me" Not as contentious as that sounds in writing it is really her just surprised and happy. In other words the lady really likes me. She seems to think I am very handsome, cultured, smart, nice, gentlemanly and apparently provide good sex which has been lacking in her (and my) life.

Me? I'm crazy about her even with the lack of ability to really talk, mostly we text. But she has spectacular qualities I often bemoan that are so hard to find in a woman and I'm betting if we could speak fluently we'd be deeply in love by now. She texts me often how much she is going to miss me when he returns, how she wants me to visit, how she will return in 6 months, how happy she is.

So the crux of this is that in late September she found out she could extend for one month. She texted me deliriously happy and said about a dozen times "I am so happy to have another month with you!". A few times in Chinese even. And then it all (sort of) went to pot. She kept cancelling on me or rescheduling (this is like starting the next day), canceled a big dinner I was going to cook with her. I nicely asked, she said nothing is wrong, yet by now we've lost one of the 4 weeks.  We had one of those really nice dinners with her friends with me/us as center stage again yet she started pulling the same thing right after which made me feel decidedly like she was doing anything to avoid being with me alone at night. Lunch with friend, sure. Me and her at night alone, staying over, nope. I was upset at this point, we were now 2+ weeks into the extra time she wanted so badly to be with me, we had one nice afternoon with 6 other people and she went home w/o me. Something (to me) is wrong.

I sent a nice letter about her avoiding me (again) and not wanting to be with me (again) despite what she said but since I could not ask AGAIN what was wrong I sort of ended up breaking things off (nicely but still). Since it seemed to me that time was running out and she was going to keep me at arms length the whole time I just said since it does not seem as if you do want to spend time with me and time is running out I'm just going to say how much I liked meeting you and wish you luck. I know, I know.

She got back apologized profusely, and I think got to the heart of the matter basically "There is nothing wrong between us it is the language that is so hard. I loved meeting you and I want you to come to me in China, I plan on getting fluent when I am there and returning so we have no barriers". My read is that she thinks the language is getting in my way and that only if/when she can speak to me will I actually really like her. She seemed to grow distant after that and my take again is that that text above was her pulling away and hoping for some sort of 're-set' w/o opening hersef up to 4 weeks of lovemaking/falling in love and then leaving with possibly nothing.

I sent a text apologizing for how I handled things, expressed my disappointment we didn't spend time together and asked if she would like to talk since at the bottom of it all we really like each other.

She replied basically "I will make time to speak with you before I return. We do need to talk! Thank you!" Which I read as there is something to discuss otherwise she could just... .leave.

So I am in a quandry (of my own making here): She is not only a woman she is a very Asian one.  And I do not think she is going to reach out and tell me what is wrong or how she feels or what she wants. She was insecure enough when I was 'the most amazing gentleman, so nice, so caring, never gets angry at me' how is she going to feel when I slammed the door in her face? Even an American girl who wasn't leaving whom I didn't do that too would likely not make the first 'look I REALLY want a relationship with you I am not sure you do" but an Asian girl in this situation who is going back home and I might never follow or call?

I think I sort of have to reach out and put my own butt on the line here; in a way that gives her space for whatever decisions she has made but gives her the information she MAY need to make it without pressure. Because I can't see her, despite her text, reaching out to me to meet given the levels of insecurity, gender and culture around it. Thus my FIRST DRAFT letter below. Not a Grand Gesuture but a good gesture I hope.

"I need to ask since you were so looking forward to us spending another month together: Did your feelings for me change suddenly? Or did you think I was just having fun and would never consider visiting you to continue growing our relationship, and that spending a month together could only lead to your getting hurt?

If your feelings changed that is your right. I'm a big boy I can live with it though and there would be no hard feelings if that was the case, I enjoyed every moment with you. But if you had doubts about me and you thought something like 'He is an American guy who's just having fun and will never call or visit me' please know this:  I have not met a lady like you in so many years.  I didn't just pretend to want to visit you in Chengdu and in your place and spend time in your life. I didn't pretend about wanting to reconnect with you when you visit again. Those are things I really wanted and want.

If your plan or desire is to leave for China and leave me and us behind that is your right and will remember our times with great fondness and you are welcome to reach back out to me when and if you ever want. If, however, your fear is I am not interested in continuing to build a relationship with you once you return to China or even back to the US then let me put that fear to rest.  I very much want to visit you, I very much want to see you before you go and continue getting to know you and have you be my girlfriend as you said you wanted, here or 7,500 miles away.  There is no pressure to reply to this I'm just trying to leave a door open should it be the one you want to walk through I will be on the other side waiting."

My other choice is waiting which I don't think works given the timeclock and I'd imagine her insecurity about how I really feel. I'd 'keep it light' and wait or do a tea or a walk in the park if I could arrange it with her if she were sticking around but she is gone in 2+ weeks which will mean furiously busy preparing for that and then <POOF>.

[once removed]

my honest assessment is that this (the letter) is a Grand Gesture, it will look needy, and its likely to push her away. ive written a billion of those letters myself with a 0 batting average to show for it.

I'd 'keep it light' and wait or do a tea or a walk in the park if I could arrange it with her if she were sticking around but she is gone in 2+ weeks which will mean furiously busy preparing for that and then <POOF>.

i strongly suggest that you stick to this approach. reach out, be romantic, propose something romantic like a walk in the park.

it might take a little persistence. it might not happen at all. it carries a far greater success rate.

[1stTimer]

Thanks OR. I actually got to the GG realization myself sleeping on it. Repeating the same pattern. Part of which is the assumption (as with last) the distance is coming from fear of the relationship vs them walking away and somehow the letter will change that. The fact is, since going on about how happy she is to have another month with me, she has spent one dinner with me alone (which ended with 'you go your place I go mine') and the one big dinner with her friends. As much as the dynamic of that dinner is confusing in light of what she is doing, the fact is there are 30 other days and nights she has not reached out, several she canceled, and the dinner that precipitated my break-up which she canceled because the friends she invited could not make it.

I can tell myself all I want that she is scared to get closer to me and then leave with a broken heart but that is just the tale; if she wanted to be with me, the man she professed to want a future with so much, she has just to text me and I'd be there every day and night. She has not. And we are left with her saying she will reach out before she leaves since we 'need to talk'. No we don't. She just firebombed the last 6 weeks we had together to grow our relationship. Whether that was from her fear of getting hurt or her losing interest really doesn't matter to me. That isn't the way you treat someone, especially someone you tell everyone else treats you with such kindness and respect and takes such good care of you. It is BS. And no, my break-up did not instigate this behavior from her, it had already started and taken root. AGAIN I think my instinct was the right one; it was clear by that second-round and I was right to simply end it which I did nicely and respectfully even if by text.

I'm not holding on to something that clearly is not there anymore or maybe never was and I am moving on regardless of what she says or does because that has put a huge breach of trust in me in her as a person or potential partner. My *guess* is that she reaches out from China expecting to somehow make this work moving forward but I'll update here if and when that happens. No way I'm going 7,500 miles away to country I speak 4 words of the language in to be with a person I don't fully trust.

[1stTimer]

It is however an utter mystery. I've never experienced anything like these recent ones in my past. In my past I either a) met a person I hit it off with and it worked until it didn't or b) I pursued someone who didn't like me and stopped when that was clear. These last two were dramatically different circumstances and women from one another but had the similarity in that they were both women who pursued me intensley and essentially disappeared the moment they got me.

Last girl I get, she was a kook the moment I met her. This one by all accounts the epitome of grace, class, depth. And it was literally the moment it was about to take off. Right after a couple great months culminating in 2-3 phenomenal evenings in the space of a week or two with either her or her and her friends where they and her literally gushed over me and we were both glowing and talking about my staying with her in Chengdu. And then she extended her trip for a month and could hardly contain herself in emails about how happy she was to have another month with me (which she said 1/2 dozen times in one exchange). Her distancing and cancellations happened almost literally starting the very next day. It's not like we started dating and issues cropped up or things started souring or I said something or did something. And no I'm not referring to my break-up text, however ill or well advised that was it was after a month of this running away, cancellations, "you go your place I go mine" and if my friends can't make dinner I'm not having dinner alone with you crap.

I have no explanation or even lesson to take from this (BESIDES the break-up text). I chose well (I thought) and treated her fabulously well as she and her friends never failed to let me know. So how it all ends at the zenith is beyond me.

[1stTimer]

i strongly suggest that you stick to this approach. reach out, be romantic, propose something romantic like a walk in the park.

BTW walk in the park is where it all went south; that started out being our romantic 'getting to know each other'; walk in Central Park practicing English with her. Day after her 'soo happy to have another month to be with you' we planned a walk followed by wine at the bar we met. When I followed up next day was told 'oh I'm going to queens to be with a friend we'll do that tomorrow' (not asking or apologizing). Next day I followed up 'thanks you enjoy, I'm staying in and writing emails back home'. NEXT day invited her to sunset cafe in park with a friend of mine I wanted to meet her, now she had spa plans. NEXT day she had a cold and cancelled a big going away dinner I was cooking for her and her neighbors/friends days later. Point is; there will be no proposals of romantic walks in the park for this girl. And point is it was nothing I did or said. Maybe I DID run into another pwBPD since I somehow got into the whole idealization/devalue/discard cycle again.

[Wicker Man]

my honest assessment is that this (the letter) is a Grand Gesture, it will look needy, and its likely to push her away.

You also need to keep in mind anything you write will be put through Google translate.  Do not use any idioms.  Write in a straight forward manner -think about how a translation program will interpret what you write.

My Mandarin is not bad and we spent about half the time speaking English and about half in Mandarin. 

In one of her rages she began texting in Mandarin -because 'it wasn't fair to rage at me in her second language'.  I sent all of her messages through 3 different translation programs to try to figure out what she was saying.  As an example apparently F#ck off will be translated to 'roll' 滚。 My point being 'lost in translation' is not just a great movie -it is a real thing.  I had to work really hard to figure out what 滚 meant... .  well worth my time... .

You are dealing with a huge language barrier and cultural issues to boot.  So keep your messages simple and short.  Once Removed point is valid --and the syntax of your letter is too complicated.

[1stTimer]

Wow I probably should have picked your brains about a lot of the cultural stuff before

I've dropped the entire idea of the letter, syntax/translation or not.

I did see early on not just the translations but her own English had huge issues that were not present for say french-english/spanish-english or even Russian-English (I dated a Russian woman).  Just 'simple' things like pronouns and tenses could make communication hard. I started to learn to translate in my mind e.g. "When I'm sick we ate at at your neighbors house' meant "When I am not sick we will eat at my neighbors house'.

The cultural part I am really stuck on. If this were an American girl I'd utterly right her off as a lying two-timing flake.

What confuses me is everything about her was just the opposite. She was clear even the first night we were together that she was not American she was Chinese, that Chinese girls dont just invite men to their house and she wanted to but would not if it was casual or I was a "player" as she said. I was clear I was not as I reallllly liked her. Even once we were together she was clear she wanted this to be exclusive ("I am your girlfriend yes? I am your ONLY girlfriend yes?") and serious and wanted to get closer. As mentioned she invited me to come stay with her indefiniitely in Chengdu at her place, and this started to become a concrete offer/plan for the future (she'd even look up in the sky and say 'there is a plane. it is on the way to Chengdu. you are on it coming to visit me'.

So I'm unclear where this went south and/or her issue. Again if this were Amercian girl I'd say she is just playing a few guys against each other but I think this girl takes sex/dating/love/honor VERY seriously. It is why I like her so much because I do.  I don't think it is an act when all her friends tell me for her that I treat her better than she ever has been, what a gentleman I am, how good care I take of her, or ask me what my intentions are because she is very serious about us. I don't think she was kidding when she kept telling me how much she would miss me or how sad she was to be leaving and how she wanted to come back to me in 6 months more fluent.

I'm just guessing here but since this all went south right after she extended and planned our additional month together and the dinner with her friends as well. Either she or one of them I think said "You are leaving in a month, you are going to fall more in love with him, and this American guy is not coming to visit you and not waiting for you, you are toy to him". Something like that.

And not knowng a ton about the culture I'm guessing a woman doesn't then tell you about those fears or what she wants from the man and has no way of doing anything but running to protect herself.

I'm TRYING very hard to believe that is the case and drop my usual American-girl reaction to this because I am not only deeply saddened by what happened I am deeply shocked; every part of me tells me this woman is rare and has all the amazing qualities in one you look for and that she was not full of s*** in any way shape or form. And my worry is that she will not, as she said, reach out because "yes we need to talk!" because of her culture and it is my job?

Any insights culturally would help. Despite my thrashings here I am deeply interested in this woman in a way I have not been for 20 years and can see a future with her despite the language and culture differences.

She did say even after our 'spat' recently (reiterate) 'it is not the money it is the language! you are most welcome to come to me in Chengdu! I will return to NY in 6 months fluent and hopefully we have no language barriers!". Yet still... space. So I'm trying to find a way to tell her or give her space to tell her IF she is worried about my commitment to her that it is real, that I want to visit and I will work through the language with her and both continue to help her with the English and learn Mandardin. She is de-lighted I prefer using her Chinese name to her American on and most delighted when I say even simple ones like thank-you, you're welcome, cheers, hello and even the one she taught me "I miss you".

[once removed]

Whether that was from her fear of getting hurt or her losing interest really doesn't matter to me. That isn't the way you treat someone, especially someone you tell everyone else treats you with such kindness and respect and takes such good care of you. It is BS. And no, my break-up did not instigate this behavior from her, it had already started and taken root. AGAIN I think my instinct was the right one; it was clear by that second-round and I was right to simply end it which I did nicely and respectfully even if by text.

Repeating the same pattern

stay centered, 1stTimer. i think in your anxiety, youre swinging one way and now another. youve now painted her as possible BPD, and arent really seeing yourself.

She just firebombed the last 6 weeks we had together to grow our relationship'
... .
Despite my thrashings here I am deeply interested in this woman in a way I have not been for 20 years and can see a future with her despite the language and culture differences.

six weeks is not a long time to grow a relationship, not in a long term kind of way; theyre a much longer game, and it usually takes a while for a couple to really be on the same page in terms of where its going. the distance and the language were always going to be a hurdle, too.

you sound pretty invested in this. she is probably invested in a different way, not necessarily less or more, but in a way that is less preoccupied/fearful, and needs room and time to grow. i think by "ending it", sure you got her best behavior, at first, but afterward, it probably pushed her to reconsider the hurdles, where this is going, and her investment. it may even be simpler than that, maybe shes very busy.

it may be recoverable, it may not be... .she has certainly left the door open, and if youre not reactive, stay centered, and play your cards right, you can do damage control and maybe get things on a better path.

[1stTimer]

stay centered, 1stTimer. i think in your anxiety, youre swinging one way and now another. youve now painted her as possible BPD, and arent really seeing yourself.

Yeah I get that, one reason I'm doing it on here vs out there   I'm just said to my friend that if I treat her like she is "T" I only hurt myself and her. I need to let her take the lead/space on this one. If I just stay with who I know her to be and stop reacting to her as if she is the last girl I'll be ok with this one. Again, why I am here. I know she is not BPD and she is not T.

six weeks is not a long time to grow a relationship, not in a long term kind of way; theyre a much longer game, and it usually takes a while for a couple to really be on the same page in terms of where its going. the distance and the language were always going to be a hurdle, too.

It wasn't six weeks it was six weeks MORE. That is part of my disappointment/hurt. It was a chance to take something from August to November and make going there much more likely/smoother. Perhaps her thought process (since this went down right after the extension) was 'what the heck am I thinking? I already am nuts about him  and now 6 MORE weeks of being with him and making love to him and then I fly home and what do I have?"

you sound pretty invested in this. she is probably invested in a different way, not necessarily less or more, but in a way that is less preoccupied/fearful, and needs room and time to grow. i think by "ending it", sure you got her best behavior, at first, but afterward, it probably pushed her to reconsider the hurdles, where this is going, and her investment

I didn't start out that way but she did. And I don't think I've been 'preoccupied' by it just happy to watch it develop and to get to know her. If anyone has been preoccupied/fearful it has been in fact her from early on; making sure I was not a player, making sure I wanted to get closer, making sure each friend quizzed me about how I felt, why I liked her, would I really visit her, was this serious. I've been pretty easy going (while saying yes I am serious and yes I DO want to visit you and yes I DO want a relationship). This sudden pull-back however clearly triggered the last thing that happened.

The hurdle is the one she's mentioned over and over; her frustration and even anger at herself for not being able to talk with me. We had a really nice dinner with one of her younger Chinese girlfriends and while she and I didn't have chemistry per se, we were able to fluently talk (mostly about my girl and/or answering questions) and I think it frustrated her to see that easy give and take (vs handing me a phone and saying "you tell me").  She mentioned at the latest dinner "Michael and I speak by Google Translator" and her friend that translate for us all meal at the end said to me (likely voicing her concern) "It can be very hard for Chinese/American couples who don't speak the language though I know a few very happy ones" AND on her latest reply to my concerns again said "It is the English Language! You come to me in Chengdu, in 6 months I return and hopefully no language barriers!" (while making sure to tell me I am a "Remarkable Man!" and an "Extraordinary Gentleman!"

. it may even be simpler than that, maybe shes very busy.

I'll part company there. I am very busy and I make time. I guarantee you that working 80-100 hour weeks I didn't have 8 of them to shop and cook for her and her friends but did. Being busy never worked as an excuse for women who wanted me to make them a priority so I don't extend it (as an ongoing one).

it may be recoverable, it may not be... .she has certainly left the door open, and if youre not reactive, stay centered, and play your cards right, you can do damage control and maybe get things on a better path.

I think you are right and my game plan now is to do nothing. I am betting that whether it is before she leaves, visting her in Chengdu when things cool down or when she returns there is some future here. It's pretty amazing to have two people like each other so much and work so hard to work through it with such little common language and I think we set some foundation for some future in the future.

[once removed]

And I don't think I've been 'preoccupied' by it just happy to watch it develop and to get to know her. If anyone has been preoccupied/fearful it has been in fact her from early on

sometimes one party does it and then the other does. again, very rarely are the two on exactly the same page with this stuff. my history usually goes one of two ways: i keep some distance and dont invest. im confident and can do no wrong. the girl is gushing and professing her love for me. and then she settles down, maybe even pulls away, and i get super anxious. or a girl likes me a little, isnt sure quite how much, and i way overpursue and blow it up. this is where learning more about how relationships evolve and devolve and how to better read people (and ourselves) can get you everywhere.

The hurdle is the one she's mentioned over and over; her frustration and even anger at herself for not being able to talk with me.

ive never been in those circumstances, and im sure theyre a hurdle. its hard for me to say how much, hopefully Wicker Man can help us there. it may even be (pure speculation) that she worries you dont/wont like her because of it.

I think you are right and my game plan now is to do nothing.

thats certainly a better plan than reacting. im not sure its a plan for reviving things.

[1stTimer]

sometimes one party does it and then the other does. again, very rarely are the two on exactly the same page with this stuff. my history usually goes one of two ways: i keep some distance and dont invest. im confident and can do no wrong. the girl is gushing and professing her love for me. and then she settles down, maybe even pulls away, and i get super anxious. or a girl likes me a little, isnt sure quite how much, and i way overpursue and blow it up. this is where learning more about how relationships evolve and devolve and how to better read people (and ourselves) can get you everywhere.

Interesting, so you have some insight into these. I've never done either. Prior to this limbo decade+ of my life it was always; I met someone we liked each other and started dating. Period. Weird huh?

ive never been in those circumstances, and im sure theyre a hurdle. its hard for me to say how much, hopefully Wicker Man can help us there. it may even be (pure speculation) that she worries you dont/wont like her because of it.

She has said just that. I'm guessing a lot of her 'You like ME? REALLY?' has to do with that I mean damn the lady is gorgeous, dresses and makes up to the nines and is loaded. I keep telling her we should be mad at me if anyone since I only speak 4 words (and again she is thrilled beyond belief when I user her Chinese name, etc).
[/quote]

thats certainly a better plan than reacting. im not sure its a plan for reviving things.

Ah sorry. I mean since I reached out last week with the pretty decent 'Should we talk?' text and she replied 'Dont worry I will arrange time before I go to China for us. We do need to talk about it! Thank you so much!" I am not going to push it. If she reaches out to talk in a day or ten fine, it she reaches out to invite me to the going away party/dinner fine. If she flies back and gathers her thoughts and contacts me when she is back home fine. I'll play it by ear when I decide to reach back out to her but basically saying I'm not going to push for more while she is here because clearly that is a sore subject and she needs to figure it out. I'm sticking with her "I have a language problem you don't have to worry! You are more than welcome to come to me in Chengdu! I will return to NY with no language barriers!" (she likes exclamation points). I'm reading into this that she can't handle the NY time that is left and wants to find a way to revisit us/this.

[Skip]

This thread of yours would be a good read right now:
The Learning Pays Off

First and foremost... .you don't have to do anything or make a decision or make sense of this today. You don't have to decide if she is bad or good or innocent or corrupt. You are triggered, not in "Wisemind", and when we find ourselves in this place its good to step back, breathe, let our strongest reactions come back to baseline.

Does that make sense?

[1stTimer]

It does Skip and one reason I decided to come here instead of texting or lettering or communicating or taking action at all. I get I'm starting to bounce so trying to spin back down, figure out why and get some clarity.

[Skip]

One thing that I think makes this hard is that you may have a tendency to lock into simplistic narratives that only take into account limited (and possibly a bit distorted) facts. When the narrative fails, you see it as a fault or betrayal by the other person and react - sometimes disproportionately.

There is a lot going on in this relatively short courtship. Some very significant factors are:

~her first relationship after marriage;
~her first sexual intercourse after marriage (some conflicted feelings);
~a breakup over a rescheduled date;
~very limited communications (you do not speak the same language);
~she was always moving 7,000 miles away in a few weeks.

Sometimes, especially if we can't grasp the full narrative, we zig when we should have zagged.

All of us have lived this. The best thing is to try to understand the big story by examining all the possibilities and asking safe questions to confirm it.

Remember my story about the girl that blasted me for leaving her a phone message. I that case, I zagged when I needed to zag. That critical moment needed for me to understanding (not standing my ground). Had I zigged, it would be over.

These are really critical calls in relationships. Make or break.

For example, my gf was upset that I was running 10 minutes late for a 2.5 hour trip n which I would meet  some of her extended family for the first time. She left without me. I had no idea where they lived. She wouldn't answer the phone.

Every time she has withdrawn (there have been a handful of cases), I have given her mega-space. This time, I knew to drive to the town where she was headed and hope that she would take a call soon enough. While my gut said let her go I don't need this, my Wisemind said this time is different - zag.

Today, she often refers back to that even as unexpected and a sign of maturity and strength.

So, what is your likely narrative, 1stTimer. The bigger picture and from her perspective?

Why was she so excited to be staying an extra month? What happened that she started avoiding being alone with you?  Why was she not available? What caused the shift? What was it all about? Think of reasonable reasons.

How did the breakup affect things? What is it that she wants to talk about?

What is the Wisemind response? What is the sign of maturity and strength?

[1stTimer]

~her first relationship after marriage;
~her first sexual intercourse after marriage (some conflicted feelings);
~a breakup over a rescheduled date;
~very limited communications (you do not speak the same language);
~she was always moving 7,000 miles away in a few weeks.

These are all things I get

Sometimes, especially if we can't grasp the full narrative, we zig when we should have zagged.

And I totally get I zagged. First time I zigged. The not wanting to be alone with me (again) likely had something to do with it, the confusion vs the meal 3 days before etc.

Why was she so excited to be staying an extra month?

I don't really have any of those answers. I'm assuming that it was because she could spend another month with me, since she said it 1/2 dozen times in a row.  Now I could have assumed that meant "another month to grow closer and see what this is about" when it meant "another month for this fling before I go back to my real life" but I have no 'bigger picture' to know either way. All I could do is lean towards the former given how much she said from the start what she wanted, how she told me throughout she wanted to be closer, how she kept inviting me to stay with her in China, how she kept referencing her return, and how she kept introducing me to her closest groups of friends as a significant person which they seemed to reinforce. In any event her stated excitement was to spend that month with me.

What happened that she started avoiding being alone with you?

I can't answer that one at all. If it had shifted over 2-3 weeks I'd have to guess it was something I did. Yet it started the very next day. Maybe it was entirely coincidental and I triggered. Which is when I came to this board and discussed how I rode that out. I did however ask her if anything was wrong between us, so perhaps that was premature, yet given her excitement on Wednesday and then a series of cancellations over the next 5 days and her cancellation of also an upcoming big dinner I felt the need to ask. She also ignored a comment when she sent me a picture of her from the spa in some amazing bathing suit to which I said "You just too my breath away" and did not get a reply for two days. So things started to seem weird and I wanted to ask before they got weird. I was very cool about it btw,  I offered to go shop for medicine or food when she said she was sick, was very comforting and helpful (drink tea, lemon, don't work too hard, etc) and thing seemed good because she invited me to go to dinner with her two neighbors when she was well aka "When I am sick we ate food you cooked for your neighbors". You see the difficulty... .

Why was she not available? What caused the shift? What was it all about? Think of reasonable reasons.

I don't have any reasonable reasons. She told the anecdote in the car when her friends were driving us to dinner about me being concerned not just for her but that something was wrong and they all said "awwww" and the male friend said to me "She says to apologize for neglecting you, she is working two jobs, one in China time zone and did not mean to neglect you. She says you are so understanding of her and so nice to her" So I wrote off there being a shift and told myself I'd overreacted to that, to the first "you go your home I go my home", the bathing suit, everything. And proceeded to have a truly delightful evening with all of them. At the end of the evening when we left however they made it clear it would be better if I took myself home vs driving with them while they drove her home (in the politest way possible "Do you need a drive home or can you get home from here?" which I understood the subtext of) which meant again "you go your home I go mine". They they said she would like to ask if you are free Wednesday.

I can think of any # of reasons for the shift, most of which she mentioned at dinner; language. I can also imagine any of the couples having their own opinions about me or Americans or a White Man or what the hell is she thinking. If it were the reverse and my American female friend was gushing and "kvelling" all evening over her new Chinese BF who couldn't speak a lick of American and she was leaving in a month I think I'd likely say "Hey Alice, you are asking for heartbreak here. Great amaziing gorgeous brilliant stylish fabulous guy ;) but you are asking for heart ache here. In one month you are leaving. Do you think he's going to follow you to America knowing only how to say "Hi, thank you, please, cheers and I miss you?. Don't you think he has other women? Do you think he is really going to wait for you to learn who how to speak Mandarin? You're half in love and in one month you'll be lost. Stick with Bob who might not be as great for you but at least he is home and speaks your language and lives in your city".

That to me is the highest liklihood scenario Skip. Because the discrepancy between the clear focus in her life on me as shown at that dinner and her doing everything to not be alone with me on the other to me can only be explained by something very much like this. When I reached out to ask her if she wanted me to cook for her on the Wednesday she asked about (I cook for her on most of our dates as she says "Michael loves to cook and I love to eat we are a perfect couple!") she immediatly said "I have inviited my friend he says he can make it that sounds grea thanks!" Likely she meant a couple as her pronouns are always off. Not so weird since we usually invite someone else, but again seemed like she was making sure we would not be alone. And that was evidenced by her cancelling the moment they couldn't make Wednesday night, the night she had invited me out for in the first place. It could only be lunch because that was the only time her and her friends could make it. So yeah I should have worked this all out by then or taking a day to ride through the 'she doesn't want to be with me!' and susses out that she is protecting herself.

I don't have any other "reasonable" answer. I over-reacted the first time, rode it out, and then did not the second time. Clearly someone avoiding being with me doesn't invite me to Carnegie Hall and then showcase me at dinner with 6 of her dearest friends.

How did the breakup affect things?

Probably pushed her further in the direction she was going in; this won't work, he won't stick it out, he doesn't REALLY like me, I can't talk to him about what I'm worried about because I can't TALK to him, I don't even understand his long text anyway except he is made at me for cancelling (I thought he wasn't like other men and didnt' get angry), I knew this was a bad idea, my friends were right, this will never work, why waste time dating if all I am going to get his hurt in 4 weeks why not just pull away now there is nothing to gain from being with him, he was looking for a reason to break up with me that is why I kept asking if he REALLY likes ne and if he REALLY did he wouldn;t have just broken up with me by text.

What is it that she wants to talk about?

Well, if she is not just being polite and goes through with it? I don't rightly know Skip. Possibilities:

1) It was so good knowing you but we can't continue. Maybe when I come back to the US and can speak more I can call you though? It doesn't really make sense to come to Chengdu does it?

2) Do you reallly like me? Would you really come to Chengdu? Do you want to continue with me even if I am far away and still learning your language? Will you wait for me

3) Why did you get so mad at me? I was trying to introduce you to my friend Bill, the Accountant and maybe investor, that is why I said we needed to reschedule around his schedule. I didn't say that but do you really not trust me and that I had a reason? I prayed for you ass. I didn't eat for two days worrying about you and asked my friend to figure out how to help you and you repay my loyalty by not trusting me? I don't think I like you so much anymore. Bye

4) How do you make Shrimp Etoufee. Is the roux really that important or were you showing off for me and YueYue?

Truthfully I not honor her with the credit she deserved. This Bill guy: she send him a text asking him if he could review my technology and invest a few weeks back. When we were in the car last week with her friends she showed me his reply "Sorry I cannot help that is not my industry". And her friend said "she got that 3 weeks ago but didn't want to show it to because you had the big meeting with the other company and didn't want to make you sad or lose your concentration". I mean F-***

What is the Wisemind response? What is the sign of maturity and strength?

Again, not sure. I think my text to her "Do you want to talk?" was pretty Wisemind, mature and strong. I can either wait or follow-up and that is what I am sitting on. We've now spent 2 days in 1 month together vs the whole month and she leaves in 18 days. I can wait to see if she reaches out or invites me to going away party (I guess I'm not cooking that one anymore :| ) or I can follow-up with some light/nice text. I'm not in a spot today where I could really give a good wisemind reply on that yet. I'm also further conflicted due to her culture. I'm thinking there is not much I could say at this point especially given there is not much I can say in general besides simplistic words. I said them "I am sorry for the way I handled things" "I like you". Right now my mature wisemend says the right thing to do is let her figure out what works for her. There are no surprises I can tell her, so it seems to me it is up to her to figure out if it make sense to her to have me in her life either before she goes, or invite me to China, or to keep up some friendly texting while she is there or to drop off the map and whether or not she wants to look me up in any case when she returns. I've done what I can do as far as I see it good and bad an no more words or actions until she comes to her decision is going to change that.

[Skip]

It might help to look at those things a little more broadly.  

So... .she said "she will reach out before she leaves since we need to talk". What does that mean?

Well, if she is not just being polite and goes through with it? I don't rightly know Skip. Possibilities:

1) It was so good knowing you but we can't continue. Maybe when I come back to the US and can speak more I can call you though? It doesn't really make sense to come to Chengdu does it?

3) Why did you get so mad at me? I was trying to introduce you to my friend Bill, the Accountant and maybe investor, that is why I said we needed to reschedule around his schedule. I didn't say that but do you really not trust me and that I had a reason? I prayed for you ass. I didn't eat for two days worrying about you and asked my friend to figure out how to help you and you repay my loyalty by not trusting me? I don't think I like you so much anymore.

I think you are probably pretty close in your assessment above.  Do you think the thing to pay most attention to is the fact that she has not been available since the fight? "We need to talk" usually isn't a precursor to a "going forward" conversation.

For a relationship to flourish under all the natural barriers here (short courtship, long period apart, 7,000 miles, an absolute language/culture barrier) would take an extraordinary connection. A friend of mine just married a man that she met on a trip 4,000 miles away. They were both in a place in life to do it (emotionally, family, financially). It was a million to one thing. A big part of it was an endless exchange of emails talking about life and desires and family.

From what you say, your barriers are much higher, the connection not as strong, and the two of you are at more complex points in your lives. As you have said, the two of you struggled to get on the same page with respect to the courtship style (her style was reasonable in her culture, yours in your culture) and then there was the fight which was probably a pivotal point (a deciding factor at a time when the future was unclear, decision unmade) - a zig or zag moment.

You may want to look at this as a "summer vacation love" (like in grade school) and as an important stepping stone in your re-entry back to your life.

If it was me (this is my style - only an example - and not a specific recommendation for you), I would buy her a scrapbook gift... .like a piece of art that will stay with her in China. You can have it delivered. I would not mention a word about the "relationship" anymore - not about going forward, not about ending, not about apologizing (you covered that). I would cast this in my own mind as a great adventure and one to cherish ("summer vacation love"). You needed it. She did, too.

If you two do meet up before she goes, I'd just be fun, light, and nice to her... .

[Wicker Man]

I would cast this in my own mind as a great adventure

I would have agreed with skips advice even if the mailbox hadn't bounced my message... .You know what I mean... .

I would not put much weight on cultural issues -people are people.  In fact, she seems to have over come the one social stigma in China --the importance of money in a relationship.  Some dating couples now exchange money in a break up for time lost, meals eaten and gifts given... .  A quote from the debacle with S. Korea last year "Your mind is for making money all other decisions should be made by the government.'

Take it easy.  Give her space.  

In my experience no woman wants to be hounded.  You need to give people space, show interest -but leave breathing room.  Also keep notes positive.  Sturm and Drang “Storm and Stress” wreaks havoc in new relationships.  


Turn off your analytical mind a little bit and enjoy the ride.  When we make mental logic charts trying to figure out what is happening in a relationship we often create a self fulfilling prophecy.  

[1stTimer]

Some dating couples now exchange money in a break up for time lost, meals eaten and gifts given... .  A quote from the debacle with S. Korea last year "Your mind is for making money all other decisions should be made by the government.

Which is where I think her friends came in. She didn't care and believed in me. They likely (something I suspected before) thought I was after her money.

Take it easy.  Give her space.  
In my experience no woman wants to be hounded.  You need to give people space, show interest -but leave breathing room.  Also keep notes positive

I have never hounded her or pushed or not given her space. I objected after several cancellations. I have not pursued or overpursued if anything that was her.  I haven't pushed for a relationship, to get together, to have more, to have a future, for her time. That was her.

Turn off your analytical mind a little bit and enjoy the ride.  When we make mental logic charts trying to figure out what is happening in a relationship we often create a self fulfilling prophecy.  

I did not until this insane turn of events. I was enjoying it as it came for what it was, open to it becoming more. When huge contradictions arose in not just words and actions but actions and actions I tried to figure it out. Anyone would have.

[1stTimer]

I get that "I will reach out before I go to China. We need to talk about it!" is not great news. It is not let's get together, it is our time is over here but we can wrap it up with a parting conversation. And yes I get that I've not been contacted since 'the fight' but it was already distancing before. Again the dinner threw a lot of confusion into the works about what was going on. I'm guessing (since you seeemd to not give 2) any credence in your reply) that the elder couples disapproved strongly, especially re money.

I did initially treat this as a great 'summer love' opportunity, what could be better. Pretty Chinese girl, leaves in the fall. I got pulled i not only by who she was but by her very strong push to make this committed, important, future based and involving both her return to China and her return, and her traipsing me around to her various groups of friends and relatives. Stupid of me perhaps but, on a much larger and deeper scale than the insane last girl, it felt like the beginning of a real relationship, this one based on real caring and respect for who the other person was and what she could bring to my life and vice-versa.

Right now I am not predisposed to any parting gift that may change. As much as my being here is about me learning to develop more effective relationship tools, it doesn't change the fact her behavior was hurtful and callous in many ways. If I came here with the exact reverse of this story, me in China etc you'd be all over my a** for my behavior, consideration, etc. It is simply a component of the story. And while she is not BPD, she has so far in fact discarded me from her life like I don't exist right after extracting some pretty serious emotional promises and commitments.  Do I think she is evil or mean or damaged because of that? No I get most of what happened. It just means right now I am not predisposed to reach out with a gift or memento. Perhaps with some space and time I'll feel good about reaching out or sending something or having some light text or banter as if nothing happened.  Right now for the first time in 20 years I bought in each step of the way with the dozen friends who each told me how much she wanted and meant and quizzed me on how much I was committed and her endless requests to come be with her that I had found the possibility of something I had not had since this whole decade+ long debacle started. Is she to blame? No. She was as "stupid" as me not seeing the hurdles so I'm not blaming her and don't hate her. But it hurts honestly like nothing has since lost The One in 2001. Maybe it is a good thing on the road back I don't know. Likely it is. Right not it just hurts.

[1stTimer]

An interesting discovery on 'timings'; Friday 9/28 was the day she first started doing her cancellations. Wednesday 9/26 was when we had our dinner and she then texted me how she extended and her 1/2 dozen "I am so happy to have another month with you". Just was on my own Facebook (I don't troll hers, not even a big FB guy myself but I did post pics of the two dinners we cooked and the group party with her friends). Anyway was updating on my page noticed updates so checked them; she was all over my page on 9/27, she commented in about a dozen photos, mostly about us, some others. I guess irrelevant now, just pointing out that there was some intense connection on her part those two days less than a month that seemed to lead to the hard pull back the very next day and the 'family' dinner two weeks ago. i don't think the intensity of that what happened next is an accident.  The girl who was pouring over pictures of us on Facebook at Midnight imagining a month with me was not ignoring my "you take my breath away" comment because it meant nothing to her, just the opposite. Me, I think there is another chapter here. Maybe not before she leaves and maybe not IN Chengdu but there is something very real here that has transcended our ability to have a real conversation. I think anything that strong I can just let it be and see what comes of it.