Trying to reverse a breakup that I initiated (part 2).

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

Long update as I wanted to try to handle this in my own way. No offense to anyone here but I find I get myself confused here and my core goal/lesson is that I need to listen to my instincts AND then take time to process not react. I get myself into a react cycle here (no one's fault) so felt it best to reflect, take some time and then take some action.

I rejected most of the more negative possibilities I threw out and figured the most likely was her fear of getting closer and then my not following up. I also felt that even if was true what we had was over and not possible to continue, that assuming that was the case for her (and myself) without finding out didn't serve anyone well. Why take a chance we part ways forever with each of us wishing the other one had wanted more not knowing we both did?

So I sent a version of the letter I wrote. But I printed it out and then rolled it into a spray of lavender and dropped it off in her building.  I suggested in the letter she get it translated (as the whole point was for wechat translate to not mess up a possible good thing). She was very happy to get it. In fact she took a beauty shot of it after re-arranging it so you could see her name in Chinese and Enlgish as I printed on the outside of the letter and re-rolled it against the lavender spray and shot it against a stark white wall with her hand holding it up so I think it was important to her  Again her english is so poor and the culture is so different I could not read anything in her reply "Thank you so much for loving me, thank you so much for loving me, I wish you luck". I did some translation on line and funny enough "I wish lucky" and "I am lucky" are the exact same translation (Wǒ hěn xìngyùn). She said she'd have her friend translate it and we would speak. I thanked her in chinese for such a nice reply and she wrote back 'your chinese is so good!', I said I want to learn for you and she said "Of course! "

Waited like 6 days which was weird to me but in any event we met last night. She chose the bar we met at which I found interesting since she always speaks of that in sort of a magical way (i.e. she never goes to bars, certainly not alone, and she was walking by and felt compelled to go in and there I was). She also asked if she could bring a translator friend which I found quite interesting. I said of course. Some 22 year old son of one of her friends which made it weirder, I was expecting the same female neighbor of hers that we'd had dinner with twice and already established a great three-way rapport with.  Not so sure how much more clarity I got  as it was hard to really ask him any of the questions I wanted. The gist of my question is did you mean what you said about wanting to continue, wanting me to come stay with you, that this was serious etc.

So her first issue was I am very handsome :| and will I really not sleep with other women for 6 months?

Another issue apparently was her age; she handed me her passport, pointed to her birthdate. 54. Wow.  No idea. Anyway I said do you think that makes a difference? I don't care if you are 20 or 90 you are beautiful to me.

She apologized through him for cancelling on me so many times, apparently she is like J-Lo though; hugely industrious, running a new business here, working China hours with a biz she runs with her husband, english lessons 3 hours a day, then she is going to various business classes, working with local councilmen to try to get business concessions, working with some local chinese martial artist star to get him to make her the main supplier of medical devices and such for his own business, lunch events for entrepeneurs, etc. I know this to be true since her wechat shows all of this.

Another issue was I never introduced her to my family, friends and she doesn't even know where I live and he said this is very concerning in Chinese culture. I mentioned that I am at home caring for my mother and told him in American culture, women look down on men who are with their parents for ANY reason and told him an anecdote about when my father 'escaped' when he had dimentia and I had to go searching for him, worried he was lost or hit by a bus given his memory and mobility issues. Finally found him at a burger shop he just wanted a beer and a burger alone w/o my mom doting on him. Anyway afterwards I went to the same bar, shaken to my core, some girl started talking to me I told her the story and her only comment was a disappointed and sort of sneering "so wait. you live with your PARENTS?" Nothing about the his or my pain and terror, just disppointment that this guy she was hoping was single was a loser.

So I said I found it hard to tell her that given how much I liked her and how successful and independent she is. He said we are not like that in China, we take care of our elder and don't judge people who do she would never care about that.

So I told her I would love for her to meet my mother who already likes her without having met her and invited her for dinner. She asked if she could bring him so she could converse with my mother well too and said of course.

He said she has real concerns about the language (I said I am happy to learn Mandarin for her) and that we need more time to know each other. At some point I think he said can we take a year to weChat and I said I'm fine to weChat but that is not a relationship it is texting and will not bring us closer. If it is what she wants I am happy to do that but understand I don't consider that a relationship and will be happy to have what we had and just text her as a friend and if anything happens in the future it happens.

He said she still VERY much wants you to come stay with her in Chengdu, maybe a month or two months if you want.  Can she give you her answer about continuing your relationship officially in a few days? I said she doesn't have to give me any answers. I just want to know we had and have something serious and we both have the desire to have more, however that happens.

In any event within like 10 minutes the same chemistry/affection was there, her eyes were lit up the whole time. She was back to the 'Michael is so good to me, such a gentleman, his eyes are so beautiful and kind and when he looks at me I trust everything in his eyes, and he has such nice muscles'

She is coming to dinner Friday to meet my mother with her translator friend then she leaves on the 8th.

So not sure where we are in fact but in a better place than where we were. There was zero of the distance, coldness, anger in her I thought I sensed in her texts. I do think she is/was on the fence about whether this can work and also given the sort of aborted last 4 weeks. I guess so am I. Those were 4 important weeks. She was concerned I was upset too about how business oriented she is and I said I love it, clearly I am ambitious too. I said maybe we can take over the world and I can be King and you can be Queen and she lovvvved that

So we shall see. But I am glad I said something instead of assuming and always wondering. If we don't have some clear understanding when she leaves I'll keep dating and I guess she will too. I'll visit her in the winter and we can see what we have then and if we have something then when she returns in the Spring we can see more then. She's just an amazingly special lady and somehow one who thinks I am an amazingly special man. For now that is aces for me.

[1stTimer]

Long update as I wanted to try to handle this in my own way. No offense to anyone here but I find I get myself confused here and my core goal/lesson is that I need to listen to my instincts AND then take time to process not react. I get myself into a react cycle here (no one's fault) so felt it best to reflect, take some time and then take some action.

I rejected most of the more negative possibilities I threw out and figured the most likely was her fear of getting closer and then my not following up. I also felt that even if was true what we had was over and not possible to continue, that assuming that was the case for her (and myself) without finding out didn't serve anyone well. Why take a chance we part ways forever with each of us wishing the other one had wanted more not knowing we both did?

So I sent a version of the letter I wrote. But I printed it out and then rolled it into a spray of lavender and dropped it off in her building.  I suggested in the letter she get it translated (as the whole point was for wechat translate to not mess up a possible good thing). She was very happy to get it. In fact she took a beauty shot of it after re-arranging it so you could see her name in Chinese and Enlgish as I printed on the outside of the letter and re-rolled it against the lavender spray and shot it against a stark white wall with her hand holding it up so I think it was important to her  Again her english is so poor and the culture is so different I could not read anything in her reply "Thank you so much for loving me, thank you so much for loving me, I wish you luck". I did some translation on line and funny enough "I wish lucky" and "I am lucky" are the exact same translation (Wǒ hěn xìngyùn). She said she'd have her friend translate it and we would speak. I thanked her in chinese for such a nice reply and she wrote back 'your chinese is so good!', I said I want to learn for you and she said "Of course! "

Waited like 6 days which was weird to me but in any event we met last night. She chose the bar we met at which I found interesting since she always speaks of that in sort of a magical way (i.e. she never goes to bars, certainly not alone, and she was walking by and felt compelled to go in and there I was). She also asked if she could bring a translator friend which I found quite interesting. I said of course. Some 22 year old son of one of her friends which made it weirder, I was expecting the same female neighbor of hers that we'd had dinner with twice and already established a great three-way rapport with.  Not so sure how much more clarity I got  as it was hard to really ask him any of the questions I wanted. The gist of my question is did you mean what you said about wanting to continue, wanting me to come stay with you, that this was serious etc.

So her first issue was I am very handsome :| and will I really not sleep with other women for 6 months?

Another issue apparently was her age; she handed me her passport, pointed to her birthdate. 54. Wow.  No idea. Anyway I said do you think that makes a difference? I don't care if you are 20 or 90 you are beautiful to me.

She apologized through him for cancelling on me so many times, apparently she is like J-Lo though; hugely industrious, running a new business here, working China hours with a biz she runs with her husband, english lessons 3 hours a day, then she is going to various business classes, working with local councilmen to try to get business concessions, working with some local chinese martial artist star to get him to make her the main supplier of medical devices and such for his own business, lunch events for entrepeneurs, etc. I know this to be true since her wechat shows all of this.

Another issue was I never introduced her to my family, friends and she doesn't even know where I live and he said this is very concerning in Chinese culture. I mentioned that I am at home caring for my mother and told him in American culture, women look down on men who are with their parents for ANY reason and told him an anecdote about when my father 'escaped' when he had dimentia and I had to go searching for him, worried he was lost or hit by a bus given his memory and mobility issues. Finally found him at a burger shop he just wanted a beer and a burger alone w/o my mom doting on him. Anyway afterwards I went to the same bar, shaken to my core, some girl started talking to me I told her the story and her only comment was a disappointed and sort of sneering "so wait. you live with your PARENTS?" Nothing about the his or my pain and terror, just disppointment that this guy she was hoping was single was a loser.

So I said I found it hard to tell her that given how much I liked her and how successful and independent she is. He said we are not like that in China, we take care of our elder and don't judge people who do she would never care about that.

So I told her I would love for her to meet my mother who already likes her without having met her and invited her for dinner. She asked if she could bring him so she could converse with my mother well too and said of course.

He said she has real concerns about the language (I said I am happy to learn Mandarin for her) and that we need more time to know each other. At some point I think he said can we take a year to weChat and I said I'm fine to weChat but that is not a relationship it is texting and will not bring us closer. If it is what she wants I am happy to do that but understand I don't consider that a relationship and will be happy to have what we had and just text her as a friend and if anything happens in the future it happens.

He said she still VERY much wants you to come stay with her in Chengdu, maybe a month or two months if you want.  Can she give you her answer about continuing your relationship officially in a few days? I said she doesn't have to give me any answers. I just want to know we had and have something serious and we both have the desire to have more, however that happens.

In any event within like 10 minutes the same chemistry/affection was there, her eyes were lit up the whole time. She was back to the 'Michael is so good to me, such a gentleman, his eyes are so beautiful and kind and when he looks at me I trust everything in his eyes, and he has such nice muscles'

She is coming to dinner Friday to meet my mother with her translator friend then she leaves on the 8th.

So not sure where we are in fact but in a better place than where we were. There was zero of the distance, coldness, anger in her I thought I sensed in her texts. I do think she is/was on the fence about whether this can work and also given the sort of aborted last 4 weeks. I guess so am I. Those were 4 important weeks. She was concerned I was upset too about how business oriented she is and I said I love it, clearly I am ambitious too. I said maybe we can take over the world and I can be King and you can be Queen and she lovvvved that

So we shall see. But I am glad I said something instead of assuming and always wondering. If we don't have some clear understanding when she leaves I'll keep dating and I guess she will too. I'll visit her in the winter and we can see what we have then and if we have something then when she returns in the Spring we can see more then. She's just an amazingly special lady and somehow one who thinks I am an amazingly special man. For now that is aces for me.

[1stTimer]

Follow-up is after texting her translator friend to thank him for his efforts and invite him to the Friday Meet-the-Mom dinner he said among other things "... .I am glad you and she found each other so special and intimate... ." which sounds good to me given he had an earful from her all night. Also as I start to look into this, meeting the bf or gf parents in Chinese culture is a Big Event not just a casual 'hey hi 1stTimer's mom glad ta meetcha'. In some ways it indicates a proposal. Gulp

[Insom]

Hi,  1stTimer.  It sounds like you're in a feeling mode - upbeat and positive - and not seeking to analyze at the moment.  I can relate to how wonderful a new relationship can feel when things are going well. 

 

In some ways it indicates a proposal. Gulp.   

Wow, this sounds potentially momentous.  How do you feel about it?  Did you intend the invitation as a proposal? 

[1stTimer]

Hi,  1stTimer.  It sounds like you're in a feeling mode - upbeat and positive - and not seeking to analyze at the moment.  I can relate to how wonderful a new relationship can feel when things are going well.  Wow, this sounds potentially momentous.  How do you feel about it?  Did you intend the invitation as a proposal? 

Hi Insom thanks. Yeah analyzing seems to get me in trouble  I go to dark places for some reason these days.

I didn't intend it as a proposal per se, I meant it as a 'you are very important to me and my future and I want you to meet my mother'. I was going to do so anyway before October became so strange and distant, yet when we had our meeting with her friend translating, he made clear that was a big issue for her. I did in fact invite her to come out with friends once early in October but she had plans, in any event she was concerned she has included me in multiple events with close friends and I had not and had not seen where I live or been introduced to family or friends. So I immediatly invited her and let her know it had been one of the things I had wanted to do this month before she became unexpectedly unavailable. She immediatly accepted and interestingly enough asked if her friend could come so she could speak to and understand my mother.

Still some interesting distance in her texts but I'll take the fact that with 10 days left to handle all of her business and friends in the US before she leaves she is taking an evening to meet my mother which is a big deal in anyone's culture. I'm pretty clear at least she is a woman I could see marrying if our 'arc' continues. I seem to have addressed the mother issue and addressed the 'I am older than you thought' issue so we'll see what else remains on the plate.  My guess is she goes back to China w/o us having any firm committment/understanding and I either go stay with her as per her invite for a month or two (that should be interesting) or I see her again when she comes in for a couple weeks in January. I'm hoping the distance she put between us in the last month, right at the very peak of our energy didn't kabosh things. Then again if it did, a long distance relationship is out of the question isn't it?

[1stTimer]

Although, as always with trying to decipher Chinese tenses, I can read

"found each other so special and intimate" to mean either

past tense, i.e. not anymore (from her)

present tense "find each other so special and initmate"

or "found each other, and have such a special and intimate relationship"

It has been the ongoing struggle in this relationship. Between idioms, pronouns, tenses and cultural expectations it is a doozy.

I will be interested to see if she actually follows through without cancelling as if she is planning her exit this would be the time to do it; sail away next week no muss no fuss. But coming by to meet "me dear old mum" is a huge statement and taking the time out of her last ten days trying to wrap up multiple business deals and say goodbye to multiple friends in two boroughs and pack her apartment etc seems a ridiculous waste of time if it means nothing. Time shall tell. I did what I could the rest is up to her.

[Insom]

It sounds as though due to the language barrier you've had to put extra time and energy into into understanding what her true feelings are, and that her inner life is somewhat of a mystery to you.  Could this be part of what's made this relationship feel compelling to you?  That it's a puzzle of sorts?

[1stTimer]

It sounds as though due to the language barrier you've had to put extra time and energy into into understanding what her true feelings are, and that her inner life is somewhat of a mystery to you.  Could this be part of what's made this relationship feel compelling to you?  That it's a puzzle of sorts?

Hi Insom, not in the slightest. The puzzle is never what appealed to me, it is a struggle to have to communicate and understand. It was the simple and joyous connection that was there despite the language barriers. I'd give anything to know Mandarin tomorrow or for her to be fluent in English by the morning. I just end up in a situation now where I need to parse every word which is simply a hard and unwanted addition to the challenge.

[Skip]

I will be interested to see if she actually follows through without cancelling as if she is planning her exit this would be the time to do it; sail away next week no muss no fuss. But coming by to meet "me dear old mum" is a huge statement... .

So what is you vision of what happens between 20 days from now and January?  Will you find a long distance relationship with extremely limited communication fulfilling. Will you be loyal to her.

[tin]

Sorry you may have written about this before somewhere else, but you mention her husband? Are they separated or divorced or in an open relationship? Is he still in China? How does that make you feel?

[Insom]

The puzzle is never what appealed to me, it is a struggle to have to communicate and understand. It was the simple and joyous connection that was there despite the language barriers.

I hear you.  She sounds like a very charming and attractive person whom it's been a struggle to get know in a nuanced way because of the cultural barriers. 

Skip asks a great question about the long distance thing.  Is a long distance relationship something you want? 

Good question also from tin.

[1stTimer]

So what is you vision of what happens between 20 days from now and January?  Will you find a long distance relationship with extremely limited communication fulfilling. Will you be loyal to her.

I don't really have a vision. I'm open. If I were a betting man I'd say she returns and gets centered when she is back home on what she wants. I can't really assess what that is since the amazing stuff between us didnt germinate for 5 weeks but on the other hand is right there the moment we are face to face.

We have a dinner on Friday where she comes to have dinner with my mother. My understanding is this is a pretty huge deal in Chinese culture. She asked if she could bring her translator friend. I find the whole thing sort of fascinating at this point. I don't think if I'd said let's go on a date Friday night she'd have accepted but she is accepting this.

I still don't have any real answers but given she has 6 days left here, had to move out of her place to stay with friends for the next 6 and is agreeing to use one night to come meet my mother seems to speak volumes.  If the 20 days you refer to are her leaving then let me clarify it is 6. Clearly I won't be seeing her except for this dinner.

I'm going to gather we do not have one more night together (not my choosing). She apparently still very much wants me come to stay with her for a month at least, she returns for a 2 week trip in January she already invited me out to Lincoln Center Shen Yu for.

IF we decided to have a LD I would absolutely be loyal to her, that has never been one of my issues with anyone. I'm not sure if it was REALLY hers either though it was what her friend led off with.

All I seem to know now is that a) she is not angry at me b) she still has great chemistry/affection with me c) she is worried she is too old (54yo single is hard for American women let alone Chinese) d) she is/was worried I never invited her to see where I live e) still worries about the language.

The being way to busy for a relationship given how much she had planned for October is pretty bs given the moment she found out she said:

"Yes I'm really happy to be with you for another month"
"I'm so happy that we can be together for another month"
"I'm really happy to be with you for another month"
"I'd like your advice, I hope you can give me a plan for how to spend this month"

Since I tried to allay her fears that I may not want to continue by telling her yes I DO want to come be with you in Chengdu and do want to continue our relationship and she still has the distance and we didn't spend a single night after comments above ^^^^ the translation didn't really provide much clarity on what imploded or scared her or made her retreat the day after those messages. The only thing that did provide clarity is that she found it important enough to come meet me (where we met) with a translator and in fact wants to come meet my mother and wants her friend there so she can communicate with my mother. Conflicted doesn't begin to cover it.

I'm clueless on the rest of it and have done what I can do. if the dinner happens  I'll report back. it is really in her court now since I am open to an LD, open to no official LD but visting her in Chengdu and seeing her in January, or hoping next summer we reconnect if we are both available. I've done what I can do.

[1stTimer]

Sorry you may have written about this before somewhere else, but you mention her husband? Are they separated or divorced or in an open relationship? Is he still in China? How does that make you feel?

Hi Tin thanks for joining in

She has an ex-husband. Apparently very amicable, according to her she wanted a much bigger life than him (travel, etc) but they have a business in China they both run. They divorced a year ago, and (according to her) she has dated men but I was the first one she wanted to be intimate with in all that time. Could be a good line but didn't feel like it. She is (again based on her words and behavior) decidedly not open relationship kind of woman.

I don't feel one way or the other about her having been married to tell the truth. I am/was very touched and honored she wanted to be with me sexually and in a relationship and wanted me to come return with her to her home in Chengdu. I treated that with great respect I believe.

It HAS occurred to me that he may have resurfaced, complained, who knows because the timeline from her extra month when she practically gushed about a month to be with me and her avoiding being with me was about a day.

[1stTimer]

I hear you.  She sounds like a very charming and attractive person whom it's been a struggle to get know in a nuanced way because of the cultural barriers. 

Skip asks a great question about the long distance thing.  Is a long distance relationship something you want? 

She is fantastically charming but there was just this thing there from day one. I've only had that 'thing' once before in my life.

I'd have no trouble with an LD.  I mean not for good but since for now she is on 6 mos. here 6 mos. there for her Visa I can see where I visit her in Chengdu for 1 month, she comes to NY for 6 and, honestly, the vision in my mind that was quickly forming was I propose to her on either her next trip or the one after that. I don't say that lightly; I only wanted to propose to one other woman in my life.

[1stTimer]

Well looks like the dinner is on since not canceled yet and no one in any culture would not have canceled dinner by now. I'm still pretty confused to tell the truth why given her distance for now 5 weeks she is agreeing to come to dinner and meet my mother AND with her translator friend instead of just disappearing into the ether next week.

One thing that occurs to me is she told me her daughter bought a new car (a 2018 Ferrari no less) which means her daughter is at least 18, likely older. She just got divorced last year and this is China and she is 54 so likely she has been married 30 years but at least 18. And if she is to be trusted I am the first man she wanted to have a relationship with in the year since her divorce. Wanting to play the field is a possibility, as is being 2-3+ decades out of the experience of dating, as is Holy Crap I am falling in love again run.  I keep getting the 1sttimer 'Incinerate!' reaction but, as Samuel Jackson says in Pulp Fiction: " I'm trying, Ringo. I'm trying real hard to be the shepherd."

So sitting on that demon, getting centered, remembering all the great passion and innocence and all her friends telling me how amazing I make her feel, how she looks in my eyes and feels she can trust anything I say, and take into account the language, cultural and soon to be distance barriers and realize she hasn't dated since possibly as far back as the 1980s.

[Skip]

How many  times have the two of you been together alone and together with other people?

[1stTimer]

How many  times have the two of you been together alone and together with other people?

Man I don't know. A bunch of times   Our first few times were alone together (bar, rooftop club, walks in Central Park, her roof, her apartment) then as we got closer other people; I'd cook for her and she'd invite a neighbor couple, she'd invite me to her inner-circle friends dinner, we'd cook again at her apartment complex then I'd spend the night with her, etc. I think it was a good balance of alone in different venues (including her place and she loved that I felt so comfortable and slept so well with her) and different people/events/ages. One dinner was a 30 year old professional couple, one was a 20-something new chinese female neighbor where the energy was amazzzzing,  a second dinner with the same girl they cooked for me and male friend of the girls, the private room in chinatown with a dozen couples 20-60, the Shen Yu concert and dinner after with 3 middle-aged (50s?) couples, same place we ate alone, etc. In other words a nice mix of alone, a mix of other people both single and couples, in her house, not in her house, bars, clubs, restaurants, concerts.

She missed the one time I did invite her to be with my friends in the park and said how much she was looking forward to being invited again (this before she disappeared on me pretty much except for what I call the 'Coming Out' Lunch on October 7th) but Friday will be the first time she is with my family/friends in my place. Again, pretty amazed she is coming... .

I'm not sure her concern on "all the beautiful women you'll meet in 6 months" was the real issue, nor her age per se (and I handled that well I think) but he did say the not knowing where I lived and not meeting friends/family was a very big deal. At least she didn't say no sorry too late and accepted immediately and invited her friend so she can communicate with my mother freely.

[Skip]

the vision in my mind that was quickly forming was I propose to her on either her next trip or the one after that.

The being way to busy for a relationship given how much she had planned for October is pretty bull given... .

These two thoughts are on very different points on the spectrum. The are contradictory to a reasonable extent. Is it possible that you are reading things too positively and too negatively or just too extremely?

Could the situation pegged at a different point on the spectrum and better understood? One that would be consistent with all of her actions?

I think finding this "point" would help your "instincts" make the most constructive choices.

I was a expatriate in Asia with a local love interest. A lot of things are in play in a relationship like that beyond just the interpersonal relationship. It is a practical way to learn the customs and the language, and learn to navigate the community. It has visa/citizenship implications. There is growth and cultural expansion aspects.

Are there life change factors in play? Many people (not all, for sure) coming out of long marriages need many years (e.g., 5 - 8) to come full circle back to the idea of another permanent relationship. In the meantime, there is a lot of "finding oneself", learning what you want and to trust your feelings.

A sign of emotional maturity and stability on our part is the ability to take all these factors in when assessing the situation. And while we can't know what the other person is thinking (although we can ask and get good hints), we can certainly get close enough that we can manage our own expectations and actions so that they are constructive ( or at least not destructive).

I certainly don't know where your friend is on the spectrum, but I do know that getting too far ahead or her (or too far behind her) can creates destructive actions on our part. I think you have seen that.

This is an sobering video - guys deep into good relationships (and with the most sincere of intentions) that got just a step or two ahead of the situation with disastrous results.

[1stTimer]

These two thoughts are on very different points on the spectrum. The are contradictory to a reasonable extent. Is it possible that you are reading things too positively and too negatively or just too extremely?

I'm not reading the second thought 'negatively' only the excuse that was given to me. I know for a fact she was not "too busy in October for a relationship" since a) she ASKED me for one and b) she ended September telling me she just found out she had an extra month, gushing about how great it was to have another month together and asking me to make plans. Clearly she backed off that hard and for any # of reasons; too busy all of a sudden is not it. I mean not for almost utter radio silence and distant communications.

Was I planning on proposing to her? No. But as the relationship was unfolding based on her words and actions and stated desires and all her friends, it was not unreasonable to start seeing a possible future with her. It was not I who kept talking about her returning in the summer, or living with her in Chengdu for an indeterminate amount of time.

So the two thoughts are a) she was seeing this as a future based important and serious relatioship (as more than one friend said, more than one implied) and made sure to ask me if I was there too since she was and b) suddenly casting October as "she is so busy with work no time" is not the truth. Thus BS. I didn't call her on it however. And my letter to her left the window for her open only.

Could the situation pegged at a different point on the spectrum and better understood? One that would be consistent with all of her actions?

Well where else on the spectrum? I'm not on thje 'we were engaged spectrum'. I'm on the 'she saw this as her first serious relationship that she CHOSE to be in since her husband and a had a long term view of it as I was starting to as well'. Nothing explains her about face and run really except a few things

1) she got scared as I said of getting even deeper with me and then leaving for China with all the pain and uncertainty that entails

2) she did not in fact like me as much as she implied i.e. it was not as serious despite he actions and words and those of her friends. I don't personally think a woman who is just having a fling introduces her fling to all her closest friends and married couples while they make a point of telling him how amazing she thinks he is and treats her and point out all the ways she feels the same ("she went to church to pray for you" "did you know she couldn't eat for two days?") etc.
I think finding this "point" would help your "instincts" make the most constructive choices.

3) She met someone else and instead of telling me just kept breaking plans with me to be with him all the while (even up to a couple weeks ago) saying 'nothing is wrong' or "i have a language problem you have nothing to worry about". Her friends even made a point to say this; when we were in the car after Shen Yu she told the story (while holding court about me and us) about the week before when she canceled multiple times  and I asked "look is there anything wrong or between us you want to discuss?" and they all 'awwwwwed' and her friend said "She says to tell you she was working two jobs, day and night, and there is NOTHING wrong and she feels bad for neglecting you".

So I'm not on the 'We fell in love and were going to get married next summer and she lied' end of the specturm.

A sign of emotional maturity and stability on our part is the ability to take all these factors in when assessing the situation. And while we can't know what the other person is thinking (although we can ask and get good hints), we can certainly get close enough that we can manage our own expectations and actions so that they are constructive ( or at least not destructive).

I have considered all of those; language, culture, HER culture, pressure from friends (American? No Money? Won't follow you! Won't wait for you!), the fact I am 'her first', not meeting my parents or seeing where I live, yes. I didn't expect per se we'd do LD when she left. I expected we'd continue to get to know each other in October given where we were (amazing) and her gushing desire to do so. Then I figured I'd go visit her in Chengdu given she has waxed poetic about it since I met her and we'd see how to work on a serious relationship since, again, not only did she ask her friends did ("you better make sure you are serious about her because she is about you, she has many suitors and she chose you do do her the honor of being serious")

I certainly don't know where your friend is on the spectrum, but I do know that getting too far ahead or her (or too far behind her) can creates destructive actions on our part. I think you have seen that

.
I can't worry about getting too far ahead OR behind. I'm part of this equation too. I let her lead mostly about what she wanted from the outset. Pulling the plug w/o warning and saying 'nothing is wrong' is what creates the destruction and I've tried to handle it as elegantly if imperfectly as possible.

This is an sobering video - guys deep into good relationships (and with the most sincere of intentions) that got just a step or two ahead of the situation with disastrous results.

Ok so guys have feelings too and sometimes push too hard too fast. Mostly in my experience that is women doing it to men. To a degree I get having to assess but again, I and other men are living breathing human beings and we aren't here to just be committed supportive loving men when that is wanted and back off and give space when wanted. Because we have needs to. I know you'll likely disagree with this viewpoint and say it is my job as a man, I don't agree. I'm not just here to give a woman what she wants whenever she wants it. She is part of the equation too.

The leaving part of this is what makes it hard to play the hand right in fact. If she were here for a year we could take it as it comes since it was building beautifully. If she weren't leaving I don't think the implosion would have happened.

Did I handle this perfectly so far? Hardly. Better than usual. Did she? Not even close. So now unfortunately there is a wall where there was not. You said 'asking' and I have done that but I have the right to expect (or at least) want a real answer "I'm scared" or "I'm not ready" vs I'm so busy to explain the radio silence.

We'll see what happens tonight. As I said, the fact that she is leaving in 5 days and still coming to meet and dine with my mother with her translator friend says a lot.

Oh one aside I realized; this translator 'kid' is one of her local Chinese contacts. He is the son of -one of her best friends back in China. By looking at her weChat I can see he sort of enters the scene right around when she starts pulling back. So I have a feeling he is something of an 'emissary' from the friend to watch out for her. She was even texting that woman on our last Sunday 'Translation' day. And I think he translated vs her and her is coming tonight not just to translate but to take my measure for her friend.

[Wicker Man]

... .the vision in my mind that was quickly forming was I propose to her... .

1stTimer I am glad you are so happy... .  However... . 

Please take care and consider slowing way down.  Limerence is blinding and lasts 6-18 months. 

Limerence: a state of mind which results from a romantic attraction to another person and typically includes obsessive thoughts and fantasies and a desire to form or maintain a relationship with the object of love and have one's feelings reciprocated.

While slowing down... .keep in mind you have never had direct and intimate conversations with this woman.  Where does she stand on Xi JinPing term limit?  How does she feel about Fan BingBing's disappearance?  Was it good to tear down Ai WeiWei's studio?  Is it ok to eat in Korean restaurants?  Was Mao a savior or the most successful mass murderer in human history?  How about TianAnMen?

 --By the way absolutely never write any of this on WeChat unless you want to get your friend in real trouble.  --Read about Sesame Credit (芝麻信贷)  WeChat is fully scanned and logged by the government.  I wouldn't bring any of this stuff up on your next date either 

I am not saying your relationship is a good thing or not.  It seems like it is bringing you a lot of joy in this moment -so that is good... .  However please take care of yourself.

Thoughts on Long distance relations:  A long distance relationship 12 hour out of phase is easy and fun -but it really won't help you learn what a real relationship might be like --take the time to get to know this person in real life.  You will grab your phone the first second you wake up and sending her a note will be the last thing you do before you go to bed. 

Texting in my opinion falls into a Variable Reward System --Like a slot machine.  It is seductive and addictive.  Variable reward trains the subject quickly and it is the most difficult to extinguish.  Little dopamine bursts every time your phone beeps.

China is the most wonderful and horrible place I have ever been.  Life there is hard -so spend some time there before you make a life choice. 

Skip mentioned visa and citizenship.  You don't have to worry about citizenship --there is no path to Chinese citizenship.  Marriage gets you a 6 month renewable visa, yet does not imply a work visa. 

I worked there illegally having shot 7 movies since 2010 -two of them being Chinese propaganda pieces for the government (one local and the other national).  Literally the minister of propaganda had to give the ok for me to shoot the last one -and I didn't get thrown out.  So it is possible to work illegally... .even if a minister knows my name.  However... .if you get pinched it is a 6 month time out and you may never be granted a visa again.

I am not trying to scare you -however you should learn more about China and your friend before you make life long commitments. 

SunZi would have you know yourself, know your enemy and know the terrain.  This takes time.  Give yourself this time... .  and have fun with it!


Wicker Man

[1stTimer]

Ok so guys have feelings too and sometimes push too hard too fast. Mostly in my experience that is women doing it to men. To a degree I get having to assess but again, I and other men are living breathing human beings and we aren't here to just be committed supportive loving men when that is wanted and back off and give space when wanted.

On this to elaborate; I can't just keep taking cues or requests from her and backing off and going forward on demand either. I didn't enter into this originally with any thoughts of long-term to tell the truth. She was leaving in 3 months. She made it clear she only wanted a committed monogamous relationship and I agreed because I really liked her (not to just agree and "get some"). She made it clear at each step she wanted more; sometimes explicitly "I want to get much closer" sometimes implicitly "you are the first man since my husband I have many suitors but I only wanted to be with you" and sometimes "subtly" e.g. introducing me to her inner-circle and letting them let me know for her how much I meant to her or even explicitly letting me know she was serious I needed to be. If I'd jumped to proposing from there it would have been way to fast but I'd agreed to basically a) we are boyfriend/girlfriend exclusive b) we like each other a ton c) I was going to go live with her for a month or two as her boyfriend in China. Naturally we'd both be thinking about a possible future beyond that, I didn't jump ahead or push ahead. I reacted when she went 180 degrees and then radio silence. Pretty nicely for the most part, a little more reactive than I'd liked to have in another part. I'm gathering if I just withdrew from her w/o a word she have gotten pretty damn reactive herself. In any event and again  I have a Chinese girl coming to the ancestral family home to meet and dine with my mother and bringing her friend to translate. That portends something nice. My guess again is that she goes back to China with nothing official between us except a mutual desire for me to come to Chengdu and continue to communicate. When her friend asked 'can you have a couple days to figure out whether she wants an official relationship when she leaves" I told him she did NOT have to do so, that I just want to know if we have something serious and special and we don't have to figure out what that means for now other then my visiting her knowing she feels like that since I do. Not sure what else I could do to make it comfortable. I already told her I was leaving that door open for her to walk through.

[1stTimer]

1stTimer I am glad you are so happy... .  However... . 

Please take care and consider slowing way down.  Limerence is blinding and lasts 6-18 months. 

Wicker Man

Hi Wicker Man thanks for all that. The slowing part down is hard when she is a) leaving and b) pulled the plug the day after opening the valve. So to speak. I've probably made this way more drama ridden then it needed to be but f-man, I went from 9/27 with a girl gushing about missing me, how she went to church to pray for me, a 2am text that she couldn't sleep worried about me, couldn't wait for me to be in Chengdu in her bed, and gushing over a next month together. When she asked me to make plans man I made plans; boat house in central park and gondola ride, rowing on the lake (central park is where we sort of 'fell'), overnight fire island, etc since she wanted to experience fall in ny with me. I didn' tell her any of this but then BANG.

I'm again just trying to get through a nice but stressful dinner introducing her to my mother and taking that as a good sign. Also taking good sign she agreed to meet me last week, suggested where we met and brought a friend to translate. Also that even with the sort of cool texts from her the energy was just like it always was. She couldn't resist, again, while telling her friend, again about how great I am to her doing the 'oh and he has such nice muscles' and grabbing my bicep. So the stuff is still there.

I know I know very little about her. I still think having a foundation like this goes a long way in any relationship; without it even finding out the details even if they are good never has that foundation.

weChat monitored. Wow. I started to feel like maybe someone was reading her chats by the way she utterly toned down her gushing. I'm pretty sure at the last 'coming out' dinner with her married friends there was a fair amount of disapproval and scolding of her for getting carried away with the Gaijin. They were all super nice of course but if you looked just at her she was just animatedly babbling the whole meal about me, us, taking out her phone and showing pictures of the meals we had, us in the park, and, amazingly, not only me cooking in her kitchen but me sitting on her bed looking out the window. Most of the silence can be dated right about then.

I'm not looking to get married right now Wicker Man, I know there are leagues to get through first. I just want a chance to build on what we had, learn a little more mandardin and learn a little more her, experience her in Chengdu not as a worker just a guest, and then see her again in the summer.

[1stTimer]

I am not saying your relationship is a good thing or not.  It seems like it is bringing you a lot of joy in this moment -so that is good... .  However please take care of yourself.
Wicker Man

Oh. It brought me some of the greatest joy I've had since say 2001. Recently, ie... last 4 weeks it has brought me confusion and misery.

And yes she likes Korean food. There was some discussion with her friend about Falun Gong since we saw Shen Yu and he was speaking about how the government killed many of them. I listened politely and was awed and shocked in the right places but didn't get dragged into any discussion.

[Wicker Man]

... .but didn't get dragged into any discussion.

When I am working in China I consider myself a guest and never say anything to insult my 'host'.  FaLun Gong was a mess -but have a look at what they are doing right now in XinJiang with the Uyghurs  'Re-education' (concentration) camps with over 1,000,000 captives.  I have muslim friends in China --it is a hard place.

Hell!  Look up Mouse people of Beijing.  1,000,000 people live underground.

As I said wonderful and horrible place.  It has one of the most ancient cultures on Earth which had a hard restart with Mao's cultural revolution.   The great leap forward may have claimed as many as 100,000,000 lives.

There is a feeling of cultural identity crisis in my opinion -ancient meets communism, meets socialism, meets capitalism all wrapped up with a brand new life long dictator... .  It is certainly fascinating.

I brought up Korean food because when the US installed our ABM (THAD) system in S. Korea the Chinese government turned up anti-korean rhetoric. Shop keepers were destroying Korean appliances in the streets on the news, the restaurants were empty and so on.

Dream Come True told me during this time 'We can't eat Korean food now'.  I reminded her that her first boyfriend had been Korean... .  That got me quite the glare.  I reminded her the Koreans were fine last week... .and it was 'our' missile system.  I asked if she hated me because of the ABM system -she said no more than normal.  (she did have a great sense of humor)


My point was simply to take a breath.  Enjoy the intoxication of new love, even marvel at the possibilities -but take your time.  Go to ChengDu if you get the chance.  SiChuan is Mecca for food as far as I am concerned. 

More practically... .Learn PinYin (Roseta Stone is a good way).  Then after finishing Roseta Stone switch to Pimsleur.  Mandarin is the 2nd hardest language on Earth -so don't get frustrated... .It takes a lot of time to learn -but you will have 1.2 billion people to try it out on.

Wicker Man

[1stTimer]

  Wicker Man

Man I wish I'd had you around to pick your brain before. For the most part I think I've done fine just being 'well brought up' but I guess there are all sorts of pittraps. I have no idea for instance if over the as I call it 'Coming out Party' 3 or so weeks back with her 3 'older' couples I didn't somehow offend someone. I was very thankful, tried everything, used chopsticks (to their delight), said xiexie ni and bu qi chi (sp), thanked everyone and sent a very nice email to her friend who translated. I told him how much I appreciated being welcomed to their lunch, his efforts at translating and mentioned that I was very impressed and taken with Chinese culture and interactions.

She is de-lighted when I speak any Chinese, and especially that I asked permission to and then only did use her Chinese vs American name. I even did so with her friend's near impossible to pronounce 'YueYue' (I didn't know  could shape my mouth like that) and one night she made me practice 'Hello beautiful ladies!' so I could greet them when they cooked for me (in return for a meal I made them). I still have a voice message in weChat from her delightedly telling me how cool it is for me to say hi to her in Chinese.

I think getting back to intoxication is going to be hard. She's gone in 5 days or so, I think I am not being invited to the going away party (originally in fact I was slated to cook a gourmet french meal for her going away) and am definitely sort of at arm's length. We don't text anymore at all. Again I'm surprised given the wall she put up that she is coming to my house to have dinner and meet my mother because we've spent zero time together since the dinner on the October 7th (and last week's translation day to explain things to me). So clearly her friend's admonition that she never met my family or friends and never saw where I live was a big deal to her. Again I'm sort of surprised given what seemed to be her plan that she didn't just exit and agreed to do this. If I read correctly this is not just an American girl coming to dinner with the folks (which would still be interesting if she were leaving and we were in an indeterminate place) this is a Chinese girl coming to meet the mother. Am I correct that that holds a lot more weight?

I did already btw say I would learn Mandarin for her, I said I'll study 2 hours a day like you do and soon we can speak.

[Skip]

1) she got scared... .

2) she did not in fact like me as much as she implied... .

3) She met someone else... .

I don't think these are reasonable alternatives points on the scale that tie all the events together.

I think it would help immensely if you look at the pieces on the whole with the belief that there is a mindset that would make all of them consistent. I think it would help to keep trying to refine that.

Clearly she backed off that hard and for any # of reasons; too busy all of a sudden is not it. I mean not for almost utter radio silence and distant communications.

But you never think that the breakup played heavily into this... .Not fault finding here, you both feed into it. It showed a few things - the fragility of the relationship, the disconnect in "what is next", and the inability to address conflict. She backed off from there.

She obviously has interest in you. The situation (6 months here/six months there, language barrier) is a very significant hurdle to overcome. The break-up (don't discount the significance).  She obviously has pulled way back/has reservations/doubts about the future of the relationship... .but is still open to explore, but much more slowly, more carefully.

You mention that she has pushed a monogamous relationship with you. This might be better seen as she wants a monogamous relationship and not a player. It might be over interpreting it to see this as committing at any level to a long term relationship with you. This is women-speak. It's common. She doesn't want a fling.

At this point, the invitation to come to China may be more a test of your sincere interest (and hers) than an invitation. If/when you follow up on it, you will get a better idea if it is real - right now its just a casual invite and likely dependent on how things unfold in the coming weeks.

Meeting your mom is clearly an indication that she is still open and exploring. But I don't think it is a sign of commitment or intensity of the relationship. It's something to give her a sense of who you are.

Might it be that things are in a very ambiguous state. That after the initial chemistry, you two had very different expectations on how to spend that last month and clashed over it and are now in a different place. Now she is moving.

Where do you go from here?

I think that is the biggest thing before you is what happens in the 90 days before she returns for three weeks. You aren't communicating o a routine basis - that communication was limited in the best of times - what happens in three weeks?

If it was me, I might search for a more meaningful way to communicate. Maybe you can find a Chinese friend (not one of her friends) to translate letters for you, and move to a "letter exchange" relationship. You can say a lot more about who you are in letters than in 100 characters in a text.

What happens when she visits? Can you use the letters to get on the same page?

[Wicker Man]

... .this is a Chinese girl coming to meet the mother. Am I correct that that holds a lot more weight?

Honestly, I am not sure of the ramifications.  It could be her showing respect for your family -family is still important in Chinese culture --although that is changing too.  A lot of young people are not caring for their parents like they used to.

People are people -if she wants to know more about you and your family it certainly implies a level of interest.

Dream Come True was reticent to have me meet with her family before we were engaged, but this was more likely fallout from BPD than cultural issues.  I believe she didn't want to display another relationship which she feared would blow up. 

It could also have been she was afraid I would balk at the level of poverty they live in.  Her grandparents have a 3 room apartment in a terrible state of repair (partially because Dream Come True tore the flooring and wall coverings out in a rage... .)

When I did meet her family it was the single best week of my life -I was a member of the family immediately.  The entire compound threw a BBQ for us in the parking lot.  It was warm and wonderful.  Everywhere we went I held her grandmother's hand to help her walk. 

Don't worry too much about cultural issues.  As I said we are all roughly the same animals inside and culture is more or less a modifier in my opinion.


Best of luck with the meeting.


Wicker Man

[1stTimer]

But you never think that the breakup played heavily into this... .Not fault finding here, you both feed into it. It showed a few things - the fragility of the relationship, the disconnect in "what is next", and the inability to address conflict. She backed off from there.

I don't in fact think it played heavily. She backed off well before there. As mentioned almost literally the day after she went gush-wire about us having yet another month to be together. She was actually good for a few days. I know your theory is a reaction then set in, I think if anything is is because in the exchanges we had I mentioned the fact she had wanted ABC and seems to not. I don't think the 'break-up; did.

You mention that she has pushed a monogamous relationship with you. This might be better seen as she wants a monogamous relationship and not a player. It might be over interpreting it to see this as committing at any level to a long term relationship with you. This is women-speak. It's common. She doesn't want a fling.

Hmm I don't think I saw that statement as being "I want a long term relationship". In fact when she brought up the "Am I your girlfriend" thing I specified things pretty much the same way "I don't want to date other women and want to get to know you". I never saw that initial comment as meaning I am considering you as a potential life partner. I didn't want a fling either. It was all the things that started happening after that started (clearly) looking like she wanted long-term not the least of which was her friends all quizzing me about it. As mentioned, one night when I hung out with her two Chinese neighbors (20s girl and guy) she sent me upstairs to get more wine. Seemed weird at the time but when I came back first the guy started quizzing me about that then the girl and she did it a little more in earnest basically summarizing "Don't mess this up and not be serious because she will be gone baby gone. She's chosen you so either be in or out".

At this point, the invitation to come to China may be more a test of your sincere interest (and hers) than an invitation. If/when you follow up on it, you will get a better idea if it is real - right now its just a casual invite and likely dependent on how things unfold in the coming weeks.

It was never a casual invite as far as I can tell. It was very real to her, she'd show me pictures of her home, say over and over 'you come be with me' and she even said at one point "I will pay for all the expenses". Doesn't sound casual. Lying in bed wistfully looking at planes saying 'that plane is going to chengdu michael is on it coming to me' does not either, nor do her dozen texts inviting me or telling me all the great places we will go.  When we had our 'translate' night last week and I just wanted to confirm do we have something special she wants to find a way to continue or did we have a summer romance for her he confirmed 'it is very special and she very much, as always, wants you to come live with her in Chengdu for a month or two months". It was never just a throw-away 'hey it would be cool if you came visit me one day huh?'

Meeting your mom is clearly an indication that she is still open and exploring. But I don't think it is a sign of commitment or intensity of the relationship. It's something to give her a sense of who you are.

I think it is the latter for sure but she wouldn't be doing if it were not intense and she didn't see a commitment possibility. Given how much distance we have now she could easily have called it a day. Heck she didn't even have to come uptown to The Place We Met and bring a translator. At that point easy enough to answer the letter "Thank you Michael. Thank you for keeping the door open. I will consider in Chengdu and also always remember the Summer fondly". Done. She didn't. She came uptown, spent 3 hours, and addressed her concerns; 1) too many temptations (as she pointed out all around the bar) 2) she is too old for me 3) she doesn't know enough about my life and family. Then she agreed to meet them. I don't think it is a Proposal if she meets my mother, I think it is a test to see whether she wants to keep that door open herself.

Might it be that things are in a very ambiguous state. That after the initial chemistry, you two had very different expectations on how to spend that last month and clashed over it and are now in a different place. Now she is moving.

We didn't have different expectations. I had none.  I was happily planning on cooking her going away meal at that point and planning on taking it from there .She want off the ranch when she found out and decided we'd spend the month together, not I. We didn't "clash". She in essence reneged/backed-off. Again I'm guessing she or one of her friends pointed out that it was absurd to get even more into me in 4 weeks and then leave. The guy speaks 4 words of Chinese, he's American, he has many women right here, he won't follow, he won't wait. That seems HIGHLY likely and in keeping with the initial joy of having a month to spend with me in NY in the fall and the almost immediate turn-around.
Where do you go from here?

I think that is the biggest thing before you is what happens in the 90 days before she returns for three weeks. You aren't communicating o a routine basis - that communication was limited in the best of times - what happens in three weeks?

Well I don't know because truthfully we have communicated very little in the last 3 weeks. I agree that tonight would be a good time to discuss communication. Not relationship. Communication.

If it was me, I might search for a more meaningful way to communicate. Maybe you can find a Chinese friend (not one of her friends) to translate letters for you, and move to a "letter exchange" relationship. You can say a lot more about who you are in letters than in 100 characters in a text.

I actually love that idea. I hate texting, I like (as you can tell) writing letters and there is something terribly romantic about sending each other letters including the anticipation. She could have someone translate hers to English I could have someone translate mine to Mandarin.

What happens when she visits? Can you use the letters to get on the same page?

I dunno man. We have stuff to suss out first tonight. As of the last dinner I was formally invited to go with her to the full Shen Yun. I'll try to get back on that page first.

[1stTimer]

But you never think that the breakup played heavily into this... .Not fault finding here, you both feed into it. It showed a few things - the fragility of the relationship, the disconnect in "what is next", and the inability to address conflict. She backed off from there.

To clarify this; I don't think it was my break-up per se. I think it was my saying basically 'you said you wanted to be my girlfriend and not have a casual relationship'. And though she did say that I can see that being a 'Holy C I did say that but he thinks that and how'd I get int this with a guy I'm leaving in a month'. I think it made it clear this had become something serious. Pretty sure her friends would translate and say 'Man he thinks you are his girlfriend'. She wanted it, we discussed it, we were it but putting it on paper like that I think made her think/rethink just how smart that decision is/was. Maybe her thought process coming here was "I have a great flat in a super singles building and lots of events, I'll buy a box of condoms and have fun for the first time in 20 years" and then bang suddenly she is in committed relationship. Which she asked for. But not what she planned for. This goes a little more to explaining the 'yes I want you to come to Chengdu' from the other night. Basically: our US thing is over. Let's see what we have in Chengdu. Because one thing her friend confirmed (when confirming anything was hard, they were all 20 minute convs, at one point i said to him '___ that was the longest 'No' I ever heard') was "Yes you have a special relationship and she wants it to continue and she invites you to come to Chengdu whenever you want for a month or two". I think that and Mom Dinner but likely not part of going away party means the above; this s*** got too intense, was not what I wanted (freedom while away) but I don't want to lose you. Otherwise like I said she could have just texted me in reply to my letter.

[Wicker Man]

Gaijin

老外 LaoWai (old foreigner) --polite for foreigner 鬼佬 GuiLao (foreign devil) --impolite for foreigner... .

GaiJin is Japanese... .They don't particularly like the Japanese... .Something about NanJing if I remember correctly... . 

Laundry beckons... . 


Wicker Man

[Insom]

When is the mom dinner, 1stTimer?  Tonight?