I gave my BPD husband an ultimatum (female participation only)

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

I had posted on this site about asking my husband to get internet porn filter on his new computer.  The only option I could think of was for him to do it before I drove him to surgery which was today.  He kept putting it off and not responding.  So I asked him about it on the phone yesterday.  He said we would discuss it when I got home.  I decided to go to Costco and got home late.  He had written a note with 2 options.   One option was for me just to trust him?  The other option was that he would put a filter on and ask a friend to be his accountability partner.  But the option came with an ultimatum from him.  He said (in a very nice way---I am sure he was working hard to say it all nicely) that my issues of feeling manipulated, guilted, demeaned, etc.  came from from mom and how I was raised.  Therefore I have a very high self defense mechanism.  He had a book he wanted me to read in exchange for him putting on internet filter.  It was about living with a narcissistic mom. I told him that me request  for putting on internet filter came with no conditions  He ended up asking our daughter to come and get him and drive him to surgery.  Now he has really brought our children into the dysfunction of our marriage.  I called our daughter and told her why I was not taking her dad to surgery.  I have shared pretty much with our children over the years with regard to decades of immorality as well as emotional and verbal abuse.  I shared with our daughter 3 things that happened this year.  She said, ok mom, thank you, I am still driving Dad to surgery.  I sad that is totally fine and that I loved her.  I texted my daughter the note my husband had given me with request to read a book.  She texted back that our other daughter needed her to come to their house to help out and she would spend the night there. 

What a mess but this is all finally coming to a head.  I texted my husband last night (that was the only way we were communicating)  that I am considering myself separated from him and that his choices are to live in basement or move out. 

After 38 years of living with this crazy, I am finally finding my voice.  I have read that when you give a BPD an ultimatum they try to one up you, which is what my BPD husband did last night.  I am hoping and praying this will finally be a wakeup call for him that I am serious.  If not, I do not think our marriage will last.  It kills me because of children and grandchildren but I cannot figure out how to carry the load without him doing something to demonstrate he wants to get better or at least owns his stuff.

A couple of months ago when I told him I thought he had BPD, he agreed.  He started to get therapy, got a book and talked to me about it alot.  That lasted maybe a month, then he quit everything and went back to his mad behavior.  This all makes very little sense to me, except that I am living with a mentally ill person.

Thoughts and advice appreciated.

[lonely38]

I had posted on this site about asking my husband to get internet porn filter on his new computer.  The only option I could think of was for him to do it before I drove him to surgery which was today.  He kept putting it off and not responding.  So I asked him about it on the phone yesterday.  He said we would discuss it when I got home.  I decided to go to Costco and got home late.  He had written a note with 2 options.   One option was for me just to trust him?  The other option was that he would put a filter on and ask a friend to be his accountability partner.  But the option came with an ultimatum from him.  He said (in a very nice way---I am sure he was working hard to say it all nicely) that my issues of feeling manipulated, guilted, demeaned, etc.  came from from mom and how I was raised.  Therefore I have a very high self defense mechanism.  He had a book he wanted me to read in exchange for him putting on internet filter.  It was about living with a narcissistic mom. I told him that me request  for putting on internet filter came with no conditions  He ended up asking our daughter to come and get him and drive him to surgery.  Now he has really brought our children into the dysfunction of our marriage.  I called our daughter and told her why I was not taking her dad to surgery.  I have shared pretty much with our children over the years with regard to decades of immorality as well as emotional and verbal abuse.  I shared with our daughter 3 things that happened this year.  She said, ok mom, thank you, I am still driving Dad to surgery.  I sad that is totally fine and that I loved her.  I texted my daughter the note my husband had given me with request to read a book.  She texted back that our other daughter needed her to come to their house to help out and she would spend the night there. 

What a mess but this is all finally coming to a head.  I texted my husband last night (that was the only way we were communicating)  that I am considering myself separated from him and that his choices are to live in basement or move out. 

After 38 years of living with this crazy, I am finally finding my voice.  I have read that when you give a BPD an ultimatum they try to one up you, which is what my BPD husband did last night.  I am hoping and praying this will finally be a wakeup call for him that I am serious.  If not, I do not think our marriage will last.  It kills me because of children and grandchildren but I cannot figure out how to carry the load without him doing something to demonstrate he wants to get better or at least owns his stuff.

A couple of months ago when I told him I thought he had BPD, he agreed.  He started to get therapy, got a book and talked to me about it alot.  That lasted maybe a month, then he quit everything and went back to his mad behavior.  This all makes very little sense to me, except that I am living with a mentally ill person.

Thoughts and advice appreciated.

[juju2]

Dear lonely,

So sorry you are going thru this.

I don't have experience as far as making an ultimatum around open.

My only husb, married 17 yrs had a porn addiction, and i nvr had the courage to stand up to him.

Am separated for one yr now fm untreated BPD, he also has porn addiction, and i nvr had the courage to stand up to him. We lived together ten years.
He is very secretive around his cell phone, and he is also living w a woman.

Anyway, you did come to the right place, there are many people here who can share their experience with you... .

Take good care of you.

j

[Cat Familiar]

So he chose porn instead of complying with your ultimatum and got your daughter to drive him to his surgery appointment. Then you had to explain to her why you weren't taking her dad to his surgery and now she knows about the porn and your ultimatum.

Have you heard about the Karpman Triangle?  https://bpdfamily.com/content/karpman-drama-triangle

I'm sure you didn't intend to bring your daughter into the conflict between you and your husband, but now she's involved. Your husband is undoubtedly portraying himself as a "victim" with you as the "persecutor" and your daughter as the "rescuer."

Interesting reading... .

[lonely38]

Maybe so, I will look into this.  But my daughter was already aware of her dad's porn problems and has been a witness to them herself so this was not news to her. 

I still feel it was the right thing to do.  My BPD husband will act as victim no matter what.  My children know me and understand the crap I have had to put up with.  My daughter has told me numerous times how bad her dad talks to me.  So our children do not have 'new'  news.  I felt I have protected them in order to protect him.  That was not acting in truth or authenticity.  It was, frankly, extremely unfair to me to have to pretend in front of them that everything was ok.  The only difference was last night I gave them details of what has happened.

While I appreciate whoever posted this, I am also working to get healthier myself. 

[Cat Familiar]

I totally agree authenticity is the way to go, as far as feeling congruent and honoring one’s own truth. And I understand how parents have to shield their children.

That equation changes when children become adults. And often children are very perceptive and they do notice when a parent has mental illness.

As you know, pwBPD regularly wear the cloak of victimhood and try to pull others into their drama. That’s why I included that link to the Karpman triangle.

It’s good that your daughter has an overview of what’s going on with your husband. And of course she wants to help, because that’s her dad, but she sees him with all his imperfections.

[lonely38]

It is very unfortunate, but our children have been witness to too much sadness and dysfunction.  I feel at this point, that I shared enough with them, that they have more than a basic idea of our relationship.  Also, I am not sure my BPD husband decided on porn rather than a filter.  He just decided to try to 'one up' me with a requirement of his own in order to comply with my requirement.  That is my take at least. 

I am working toward being healthy in how I handle all of this.  I am choosing to talk with my BPD husband with a calm spirit and treat him respectfully.  Weirdly enough, he is doing the same.  His behavior is extremely confusing to me as he can talk very nice to me but then refuses to do for me what I consider is a non negotiable.  I am no longer trying to be his enforcer, (yes I have done this in the past).  I am just deciding to live based on my own instincts, to take care of myself and no longer participate in his stuff, which has almost taken me to my own insanity, has caused lots of health issues for me in the last year.  For the first time in 38 years, I am ready to move forward if he elects not to get healthy, which I believe there is a very big chance he will do that.  I am sad and sorry for him, but I am no longer his caretaker.  I am now my own caretaker.

I do appreciate your reply as your first response took me by surprise, and actually sounded like something my BPD husband might say to manipulate or guilt me.

[BetterLanes]

lonely in co, you use the word "immorality" several times. Your husband wants to continue doing something you believe is morally wrong. When you insisted he stop, he said you were the problem here because of your childhood issues, and that you had to "repay" him for stopping his immorality by doing some inner work which he hoped would lead to you not making similar demands on him in the future. That's what I think is the point here, is that about right?

Pornography is not morally equivalent to the use of sex toys. The ownership and use of a sex toy is not founded on the exploitation of other people and their acceptance of money to participate for display purposes in activities with various degrees of immorality. (Maybe conditions in some of the factories where the toys are made are not so good, and you could call that exploitation, but it's not in the same ballpark.) It so happens that men tend to be stimulated more by visual material like this and women tend to be stimulated more from things like imagination and raunchy novels, and you could argue that's unfair on men, but that doesn't obligate people to supply men with porn or agree with its production and distribution. If lonely in co's husband had said "Fine, I'll put on the filter, but I want you to throw out your copy of Fifty Shades of Grey," that would have been approximately functionally equivalent in terms of the role of the material in their lives. I'm sure there would be a range of views on this board and in society about whether it would be morally equivalent. Whatever other people's range of views are though, lonely in co, you choose to list pornography among your husband's non-negotiable immoral behaviors that you won't tolerate, and you absolutely have a right to do that, and a lot of people would back you up on that.

My H following his recent therapy sessions is also currently pointing to my upbringing as a contributing cause of relationship and sexuality issues and insisting I work on those with my T. His T suggested many things to him about my upbringing and was rather critical of me by my H's account. I see your H has also had therapy recently. It feels to me like my H has gotten far enough to understand that blaming me completely and directly for the relationship issues is no longer a good idea, but partly blaming my childhood and FOO is something that (1) has nothing to do with him and (2) is my responsibility to focus and work on rather than his, so it's a very convenient way to put some blame elsewhere than him. I'm not saying that to confirm or deny whether there is an effect of that on the relationship and my responses to his behaviors, but I can see why he would want to be bringing it up repeatedly.

Hope that helps,
BetterLanes x

[BetterLanes]

PS, lonely in co, and readers, for clarity of course I have no idea if you own that book or not! I should have made that a depersonalized example, but it's too late to edit. It's just an example of a book that, um, I am told a lot of people have read that is mainly about that sort of thing. I hope you didn't mind.

BetterLanes x

[AskingWhy]

lonely, I well understand your grief, pain, upset and anger.

My H is enmeshed with his adult children, and he plays them against me when he is angry with me.

Blaming is a common cognitive distortion for pwBPD.  Keep in mind what your H tells his therapist is only his side of the issue.  Many Ts are charmed by BPDs as they can be very charming.  I went to marriage counseling with my H (a bad idea in looking back) and in one session the therapist fell for H's lies and was eating out of his hand, and even shouting at me for what a horrible wife I was.  

Pornography, despite what some might say, is harmful to a marriage.  In almost all cases, men are target users of porn and features women being degraded if not outright abused.  (Old porn films show bruises on women's bodies.)  

I, too, found my voice after over 20 years of marriage.  My H spends thousands of dollars on his children (no reason at all), while buying me only trinkets for special occasions.  They therefore benefit from his largesse; what he does not spend on me he spends on them, so they encourage marital discord as it favors them.  H is also very generous to himself:  h bought himself a new sports car and a motor cycle and took out a huge loan to pay for them.  

H is his own son's drinking buddy (who is nearly homeless and addicted to drugs and alcohol, often living on the street, in and out of rehab), and his Ds use him as their sugar daddy, even though one is married and mother of small children.  One D works as a waitress, and on H's days off he will drive to the restaurant when she is on her shift so he can be waited on her at one of her tables and chat with her for a few moments, then leisurely eat his meal while gazing fondly at her.  It's quite perverse and creepy.  H angrily defends himself saying it's his right to love his children and to take care of them.  (H's X W was most likely NPD.  BPDs find themselves in R/Ss with nons/codepedents or NPDs.  H's X W left him for another man, so H is terrified of being abandoned again, even though he would not ever admit he is scared I will leave him.) 

I agree about the Karpman triangle and BPD issues.  My H triangulates with his adult children all of the time to his advantage.    BPDs can be master manipulators and chameleons.

You know what you deserve in your marriage, and your awareness of what you don't want, as well. Your awareness that your H is a very sick man is helpful, as is your choice to alter your communication with him.  

In the end, now, it's your choice on your next move, and this is empowering.  

[lonely38]

So to clarify a couple of things, after I read my original post.  I told our children pretty much over the years.  They heard from their dad 8 years ago when he did confess to immorality.

Again, I gave my husband an ultimatum.  Some have confused this with boundaries.  Maybe I used boundaries as a term,  but what I was doing giving him a non negotiable and what I was willing and not willing not to do.

I have read a lot by now about BPD and from everything I read, when a caretaker puts up boundaries or ultimatums, the BPD typically responds with another 'thing' like my husband telling me I will do this if you do this (which was him wanting to read a book about how I grew up) This was way of putting blame on me for the way I have been changing my behavior with him lately. Also, from my understading when you change caretaker's behavior with BPD, they get threatened and tend to act more until, hopefully, they get the idea that their abusive behavior will no longer work. I am no longer allowing him to bully, manipulate, demean, etc.  While this behavior is going to take me a while to remain consistent with, more than not these days, I am walking away, no longer communicating, etc.

This non negotiable, in no way, was about sex.  It was about a behavior that  I find extremely demeaning to me as a wife.  This particular behavior was pornography, although there are many demeaning behaviors of his.  Again, I drew a line in the sand and allowed him to make the choice.

When he did call our daughter, I called her and shared exactly why I was not taking him.  I am learning by going to lots of therapy (I actually go to 2 different therapists each week, both of whom have dealt with BPD.) Because over the years, I thought I was protecting my children by not sharing with them and I certainly know I was being codependent with my husband by not sharing his crap.  Our children witnessed enough of his stuff along the way to have a good idea of what was going on, including immorality, addiction to porn and unfaithfulness with others, talking down to me, etc. I shared 3 fairly minor things with my daughter to give her a glimpse of what is going on.  I feel this was totally appropriate and maybe time to let the truth out and live authentically. 

This was never my choice do do what I am doing now.  This is very much against my way of doing things as I am extremely loyal and I love both my husband and children and grandchildren.  But the stress of living with my husband this year has pretty destroyed my health.  I do not want to be with him in my older years if this continues .

[lonely38]

I need to clarify as I am seeing I am having a difficult time thinking clearly these days.  What I intended to say at the beginning and then when I tried to correct myself is that I told my children pretty much nothingover the years.  As I did mention they have been a witness to his behavior and he has confessed but that has not been me sharing until just a few days back when I decided to offer enough information to give them an idea of what is going on.

[Cat Familiar]

How are you doing, lonely in co?

I totally get that you had a nonnegotiable ultimatum there and I think that's appropriate. Not only did your husband use porn, he engaged in infidelity and sexual addiction. My first husband did the same and it forever tainted our sexual relationship.

It took something that should be a beautiful and loving experience and turned it into something tawdry. Then, he complained because I "wasn't as into it" as he thought I should have been. Why would I? His behavior was disgusting to me and through his history of acting out, it further cemented in my mind that he was repulsive.

Sorry to make this so much about me, but I wanted to let you know that I understand why this was not negotiable and why you felt that his counteroffer was inappropriate.

Of course we all bring baggage to our relationships from our families of origin, but by asking you to read that book, he was taking the focus off his own behavior and choices.

And when you've endured being with a sex addict who behaves in abominable ways over years, it's insulting to be accused of bringing as much destructive behavior to the relationship as they have.

   
Cat

[braveSun]

I second Cat. I want to congratulate you, lonely in co, for the steps you took to take back your power in this dynamic. The more I learn about the context of your current situation, the more I see the similarities with mine, along with the extinction burst when I do put a limit to my spouse. And the various responses she has, that are making it more difficult on my side to stand up for my truth. We've known each other for over 22 years now. She knows how to push my buttons.

But there comes a times when doing this work gets to be necessary. And you seem to be doing it well. It might not be feeling good to put this all in action right now, but it will improve if you keep consistent, yes. Actually, reading the development of your story does inspire me to take heart too. If it has worked for other people, there are no reasons it should not work for us as well.

The Karpman triangle is explaining what this dynamic is about. The idea to create more safety, the distorted perceptions, the different roles, etc. I found it useful to understand better my own feelings and disengage.  I found especially useful to know that the roles can switch in family dynamics.

I'm not surprised your daughter did want to help him regardless. With surgeries, people's emotions get tangled in. There is a fair measure of emotional vulnerability in undergoing surgeries.

I can see how he would share just enough emotions for her to interpret it as a call for help. From one side, it's hard to detach oneself enough from these dynamics to be able to see patterns at play. On the other hand, you cannot blame the people in your family for trying to alleviate suffering where they see it. It's a tough place to be in for sure.

I have read a lot by now about BPD and from everything I read, when a caretaker puts up boundaries or ultimatums, the BPD typically responds with another 'thing' like my husband telling me I will do this if you do this (which was him wanting to read a book about how I grew up) This was way of putting blame on me for the way I have been changing my behavior with him lately. Also, from my understanding when you change caretaker's behavior with BPD, they get threatened and tend to act out more until, hopefully, they get the idea that their abusive behavior will no longer work.

   Yes, yes, yes.

I am no longer allowing him to bully, manipulate, demean, etc.

     

This non negotiable, in no way, was about sex.  It was about a behavior that I find extremely demeaning to me as a wife.  This particular behavior was pornography, although there are many demeaning behaviors of his.  Again, I drew a line in the sand and allowed him to make the choice.

You're on our way. I totally get it too. It's not about you what he does, but it affects you in a demeaning way. That in itself is enough of an excellent reason to set limits.

One would want to understand as well that sex addiction being an addiction, that the pw addiction is using this process as a maladaptive way to cope. There is this phenomenon with addictions and partners that I always found difficult to grasp. The addiction seems to work for them as a way to self-soothe.

In the case of your H, it's obviously not working for his marriage, but in a way, he won't change the offensive behaviors unless you stop enabling (keep silent about it, not being authentic with your emotions, act as if it didn't matter). That would be for your H, until he gets the clear message that these are the consequences for him using this behavior to self soothe.

It takes some time. And it can be lonely.
I found the need to find my support people very real.

[toomanydogs]

Hi lonely,
  I totally get it, and you have my full support. My STBX had/has a porn addiction (I use 'had' because I haven't been in contact, so why knows?)
  The porn my STBX was really degrading in my opinion, featuring a lot of what the industry calls he/she's (you get the picture?)
  I never gave my STBX an ultimatum regarding the porn because I saw it as his only outlet. He had great difficulty being sexual with me--impotency issues, which may or may not have been a result of his meds.
  The problem with the porn, for me, is that as Cat mentioned it made my STBX seem pretty repulsive. After he left, I came across even more disturbing porn having to do with elimination fetishes. When I realized he was into that, as well, it became very clear why connected sex that could have brought our relationship closer was such a problem.
  I really admire the ultimatum you gave your husband, and I fully support your leaving or your staying with him. These relationships are pretty difficult to stay in and pretty difficult to leave.
 
TMD