Detaching from the fantasy.

[SlothMaiden]

My story:

My previous thread is in the Bettering Relationship board: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=330947.0
If you’re interested, you will find all the background there.

My r/s with my uBPDexbf, was very complicated because of several factors such as:
  We live in different countries and come from different cultures.
  English is not my first language so it bounds to be some “lost in translation” moments and mistakes in communication with him.
  My dad who is an emotional type of a father and he is prone to rage from time to time especially during and after he recovered from prescription painkiller addiction. He also acts as my enabler (I still live with my parents) as well as being very protective. He plays the large role in this r/s (aka, him being the triggers for L’s BPD stages). So there were actually 3 people in this r/s, unfortunately.
  It was my first serious r/s ever.
  uBPDexbf has told me he suffered abuses from his family and thus has depression. So he uses illegal marijuana for self-treatment. But during his stay in my country he didn’t have it so I think he used binge-drinking when we were having a night out instead.

Within almost a month since he took off and “abandoned” me, we went through about 3 cycles of makeup (and each time, unsuccessfully). It was very rocky. I tried to stay in touch with him, hoping to be his friend. But the fact is I was so hurt by everything so I attempted to not return his calls. At last, when I returned his calls after almost 10 days, he was already in his complete “hater mode” and spewed all the verbal & emotional abuses, hateful things and accusations about our r/s. I didn’t even had a chance to speak up. This was the worst I had received and I decided that I have had enough of this.


Where are you in the grieving process?

After the last call, I went through several grieving stages at once. Firstly, I went to the “denial stage” a little bit again because I first thought he finally came to his sense but instead it was all about me being the “black” one. I felt discarded. I felt I made a mistake by giving him my virginity and my heart too soon.

Then after I finished crying, I felt the “acceptance” that this r/s is unhealthy for my state of mind and is now done in my part. I accepted that this fantasy that I can be his friend and keep him near my heart will eventually turn things around will never happen.

Now, I have to be honest to myself, I am mostly in “anger stage” while I cycle through all stages. I have been in this stage the whole time since he left the country and sent the message saying he wished my dad would beat me up real good. I initially thought I was already in “acceptance stage” but I still feel a lot of anger towards everything and everyone. I lash out on family members. I feel angry at my dad, specifically, because I thought he ruined my r/s and that he didn’t let me have freedom. I recognized that all he wanted to do is to protect me from heartbreak though. I think his method accidentally ticked off L’s BPD early on and that made this r/s came to an end very quick and leaved me unprepared.


What do you struggle with most?

Although I feel that I have accepted the r/s has ended for real and that I decided to detach. I still struggle to find the causes of my anger. Because this r/s progressed in very fast pace (in just under a month) so lots of thing going on that I was not ready to process. Also, anger comes with depression if I let it boil up for too long or too intense.


How might you have approached it differently?

In the Lessons page, there is “The Five Stages of Detachment” in which I just read and realized that I haven’t really done them before. That maybe why I am still stuck in anger stage. I’ll post about that in a new comment.

[SlothMaiden]

My “Five Stages of Detachment”

This is going to be like my "assessment" on myself. So feel free to comment on anything that you have opinions on. Thank you.

Acknowledgment stage

I acknowledge my feelings towards:

• Idea of having a serious boyfriend before I turn 30. In Asian cultures, single women in their 30s are seen as going to end up alone.
  
• Excitement of having someone idolizing you as a girlfriend. I felt giddy and floating on air.
  
  • Anxiety about losing the only one person who was so compatible to me.
    
  • Anxiety of being cut off by someone I came to care about like I meant nothing.
    
    • Disappointment, anger and hopelessness about my failed r/s.
  
  
  
  Self-Inquiry stage
  [/u]
  
  A. Breaking down my loss:
  
  Realizing unhealthy, abnormal behaviors on uBPDexbf's part.
  
  When I was in my first “denial/bargaining stages”, I still thought of uBPDexbf in neutral light. He still has some good in him and that I still idolized many parts of him. But then as I went back throughout the time we spent together, revisiting all the feelings and emotions objectively, I found there are behaviors that fall into unhealthy & even abusive categories such as:
  
    His criticism on everything (even about my sexual ability and vagina at one point late in the r/s).
  
     His rage. He would also threw things when getting mad and hitting himself. He also has history of getting into the fights and that he was never in the wrong.
  
    His belittlement, emotional & verbal abuses about how I was not what he first idolized and that I was a crazy bitch or schizophrenic. The worst is he made fun of me crying.
  
    His distrust and accusation about me setting him up and jeopardizing his life (mostly from not telling him my dad’s gonna come and kill him and that I didn’t call police on my dad and that I set up the scenario with the restaurant owner so he got thrown out after he started acting out on me and other people physically).
  
    His binge-drinking. He never admitted that he was drunk even when he fell down head first and couldn’t even stand up on his own after several bottles of beer & brandy.
  
    His manipulation, trying to brainwash me that my dad was holding me back, manipulating me that I should move out and have a career away from my family right away and made me have sex with him without condom even though I was not on birth control so he would stay with me.
  
    His jealousy. Especially jealous that I spent time with my family more than him or when he realized if I got a better job then he may lose me to other guys I meet in the future.
  
    Him withholding affections when in private, especially during sex in later stage. He just used me as a stress relief and did nothing to arouse me first as “punishment”. But he wanted all of my affections the whole time, sometimes by snapping fingers at me or calling me out when I didn’t look at him or accusing me of not liking him anymore when I didn’t pay attention enough.
  
    His silent treatment.
  
    His lack of employment & formal education. He dropped out of college years ago and currently doesn’t have a job.
  
    His estrangement from family. He hasn’t talked to his father in 3 years and he refers to his mother & sisters (especially his older sister) as heartless, manipulative and only cares for politics.
  

[SlothMaiden]

Self-Inquiry stage

A. Breaking down my loss (cont.):

Realizing my role/part in this r/s

Before I entered the dating world, I had this ideal coupling in my own head that if we were compatible in everything then it was meant to be. I lack experiences and in my trusting nature, I never really think of someone who would wanna hurt me purposely.

After the r/s ended. I reassessed myself and tried to find what’s underlying my dysfunctional way of thinking and found several issues.

  According to the post from 2010’s reply #1 in this thread

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=331198.0

I think I subconsciously acted like the “Lonely/Vulnerable Child” to uBPDexbf's “Abandoned/Abused Child”. We basically bonded on our family’s problems we faced.

It made me revisited my childhood as a “talented” but “emotionally-detached” child. I learned to be self-sufficient in maintaining limited emotions because of my mother’s mental illness in which she never displayed the act of love and expected me to be the best in everything, to compensate for her “failures”. My dad is also emotionally dependent on me at some level and always says he stays with mom because of sympathy. They also fight a lot. I learned to please and ask for approval unknowingly because I was afraid to upset & disappoint them and then I would try to control situation all by myself. I like to be someone’s savior and solve their mysteries.

Thus, this makes me submissive, tolerating abuses, wanting to understand and with uBPDexbf’s projection started to crumble, his fears & shames came out to play, resulting in traumas on both parties.

   I have slight deformed face that I still feel self-conscious although I never had anyone bullied me about it. But it felt incredible when he said he loved it and that imperfection was perfection.

   I learned that I am most likely in the codependency r/s. I play both “enabled” role with my dad and “enabler” to uBPDexbf. Being codependent enabler destructed my self-worth, mental & sexual health. It made me even more defensive.

   uBPDexbf always said that I hurt him because of my “pride”. Maybe he was right at some extent. I am a prideful person whose has a bit thin-skin too so when people seem to “accuse” me of doing something wrong, I’ll lash out that they hurt my pride. It is actually my ego that connected closely with my defensive mechanism. But when I got defensive with uBPDexbf, I couldn’t let it out and it built up to the resentment, anger and self-loath.

  I lack boundaries and I have no idea what are they. That’s why I let him stepped all over me all the time.

  Lack of privacy & freedom in my home. I still live with my parents because I have problem with working in corporate setting and my dad wants me to practice the profession with him, even though he can’t even work in stressful situation these days. I feel trapped inside the home, having to care for everybody, trying to make end financially. When I made a decision to meet uBPDexbf IRL, I told my dad about our potential expectation that this was gonna be romantic one. While he didn’t reject the idea, yet he didn’t like it too. After that dad tried to control and put some space between uBPDexbf & I. With impulsive pressure from uBPDexbf, we felt we had no freedom to court on our own time and I didn’t even have a privacy to talk without anyone hearing since my bedroom is under renovation (even though we spoke English and my family couldn’t hear what we actually said, but still). I felt like I introduced uBPDexbf to my family too soon.

   Ever since I came out of my depression and grad school and my family’s mental state isn’t that good neither, we accumulated a lot of credit card debts because at one point, no one worked. I had this fantasy that perhaps someone will come and save me, at least be my partner so I can move on from this s*** finally. This also prevented me from dating because I did not know how to say to potential partner that I’m broke and unemployed. Who would want a woman like that? I even thought of entering sugar daddy relationship at one point so I can have free money to pay things off and get what I want. When uBPDexbf appeared and seemed to be very supportive on my choice and wanna be with me and built the life together, I just jumped at the chance.

  I didn’t have clear goals on what I really wanted out of my partner or the r/s. I still don’t.

[SlothMaiden]

Self-Inquiry stage

B. Breaking down my feelings:

Like I said, I am still in anger stage. So I’m trying to find the causes of my anger, among other feelings that make me restless here:

  1) I fear abandonment. As I identified that I’m the “Lonely Child”, while I can sustain the loneliness by myself but I still want companionship. I fell for uBPDexbf's idolization phrase that he would always be by my side and I didn’t wanna let it go. I was anxious I would lose him forever.

   2) My bruised ego. I am angry at uBPDexbf. How dare he came, abused and abandoned me like I am nothing, like I’m just an object. I gave him my first love, I risked myself in every way and yet he made me feel worthless.

   3) I feel out of control and it makes me angry. I feel like I have no control over my life and my decision. I am disappointed on this loss of r/s as an outcome of something I can’t control.

   4) I’m angry because I also believed that this r/s fails because of myself & my dad’s doing. That we really hurt uBPDexbf by putting him through our family problem and put expectations on him and that I could somehow fix it.

  5) I’m disappointed by the false hope from uBPDexbf that he wanted this r/s to get better and built the trust between us again.

  6) I feel obligated to help him through BPD phrases. I had a hard time detaching after he started reengaging me again after the first cycle because I believed that if I stayed with him, I could help him realize he had serious problem that need addressing so that he can get better and archive more in his life.

  7) I’m angry because I’m weak mentally and can’t even protect and process myself through the loss or prevent it from happening. I feel hopeless and miserable.

  8) I feel overwhelmed and angry that I probably lost my one and only SO.

  9) I feel the panic attack all the time since I cannot stop thinking about him and “what if”.

  10) I feel jealous, despair and disappointment when I see couples who seem to have normal r/s and keep thinking why I can’t have that.

[schwing]

Hi SlothMaiden and

You've shared so much and I would like to give you as much feedback as I can muster.  There won't be any order to what I write, I'll just go in the order of your post.  Some of what I write may be helpful for you now, some of it less so.  Your mileage may vary.

My r/s with my uBPDexbf, was very complicated because of several factors such as:
  We live in different countries and come from different cultures.
  English is not my first language so it bounds to be some “lost in translation” moments and mistakes in communication with him.

Granted it would be helpful to have cultural understanding between you and whomever you are in a relationship with, however do not underestimate the universality of dysfunctional relationship behaviors.

One major disadvantage in a long distance relationship, is that you end up seeing the other person at their "best" behavior.  You have no idea how they spend their time when you are not around.  And if you are not around most of the time, then you have no idea.  You only have their account.  And if they suffer from a personality disorder, their account is almost certainly distorted.

My dad who is an emotional type of a father and he is prone to rage from time to time especially during and after he recovered from prescription painkiller addiction. He also acts as my enabler (I still live with my parents) as well as being very protective. He plays the large role in this r/s (aka, him being the triggers for uBPDexbf's BPD stages). So there were actually 3 people in this r/s, unfortunately.

You might consider that your father and uBPDexbf may have more in common than you realize.  One defining quality for people with BPD (pwBPD) is that they are unable or have impaired ability to regulate their own emotions.  I suppose when any emotion is strong enough it is difficult to manage them.  But for pwBPD, all emotions are difficult to manage, this includes good emotions (such as elation/happiness) as well as bad (e.g. anger).

It was my first serious r/s ever.

This being your first serious r/s ever, please try not to "fall into" commitments that will have long reaching consequences.  When I was in my primary BPD relationship, it *felt* to me like marrying her was inevitable. And if I did, I am certain I would have had a much deeper hole to dig myself out of than I did.
In one sense, you need these kind of experiences to help you unravel some of the feelings/thoughts/ideas you have built up; to help you figure out what may work and may not work in your life when it comes to interpersonal relationships.

Within almost a month since he took off and “abandoned” me, we went through about 3 cycles of makeup (and each time, unsuccessfully). It was very rocky. I tried to stay in touch with him, hoping to be his friend. But the fact is I was so hurt by everything so I attempted to not return his calls. At last, when I returned his calls after almost 10 days, he was already in his complete “hater mode” and spewed all the verbal & emotional abuses, hateful things and accusations about our r/s. I didn’t even had a chance to speak up. This was the worst I had received and I decided that I have had enough of this.

Abandonment is a kind of betrayal.  You can forgive someone for betraying you.  However, be careful that you have actually forgiven him.  Forgetting is not the same as forgiving.  I remember in my BPD relationship, there were many occasions when I practically "forgot" previous hurts and injuries;  the emotional dialogue kept moving so fast.  In retrospect, I was in serious denial how much I was hurt in that relationship.  It wasn't until I tried to finally let go that I started processing all of it.

Now, I have to be honest to myself, I am mostly in “anger stage” while I cycle through all stages. I have been in this stage the whole time since he left the country and sent the message saying he wished my dad would beat me up real good. I initially thought I was already in “acceptance stage” but I still feel a lot of anger towards everything and everyone. I lash out on family members. I feel angry at my dad, specifically, because I thought he ruined my r/s and that he didn’t let me have freedom. I recognized that all he wanted to do is to protect me from heartbreak though. I think his method accidentally ticked off uBPDexbf’s BPD early on and that made this r/s came to an end very quick and leaved me unprepared.

I think it's helpful to be in the "anger stage."  Anger can help motivate you to make changes in life.  But first you may need to distill that anger in order to figure out what part and for what reasons you are actually angry.

For example, it's ok to be angry at your father for limiting your freedom.  It's not necessarily your father's place to "protect" you from "heartbreak."  How you choose to conduct your relationships is your endeavor and journey.

What do you struggle with most?
Although I feel that I have accepted the r/s has ended for real and that I decided to detach. I still struggle to find the causes of my anger. Because this r/s progressed in very fast pace (in just under a month) so lots of thing going on that I was not ready to process. Also, anger comes with depression if I let it boil up for too long or too intense.

Would you consider getting professional help to give you assistance in processing everything?  

Best wishes,

Schwing

[schwing]

It made me revisited my childhood as a “talented” but “emotionally-detached” child. I learned to be self-sufficient in maintaining limited emotions because of my mother’s mental illness in which she never displayed the act of love and expected me to be the best in everything, to compensate for her “failures”.

Perhaps your parents never gave you the space or permission to express your actual emotions.  Perhaps you were expected to meet your parent's emotional needs and to suppress or even deny your own.  I think you have a lot of self discovery to make before you are in a position to know what is best for you.  You won't find any of this out until you secure for yourself the space (and permission) to find out.

My dad is also emotionally dependent on me at some level and always says he stays with mom because of sympathy. They also fight a lot. I learned to please and ask for approval unknowingly because I was afraid to upset & disappoint them and then I would try to control situation all by myself. I like to be someone’s savior and solve their mysteries.

Figuring out how to "fix" your parents was a survival/coping mechanism when you were a child dependent on your parents.  Now that you are no longer a child, you may be your most important mystery to solve and your own best savior.

Thus, this makes me submissive, tolerating abuses, wanting to understand and with uBPDexbf’s projection started to crumble, his fears & shames came out to play, resulting in traumas on both parties.

These are probably behaviors you have thoroughly practiced with your parents reapplied to uBPDexbf.  You can change these behaviors (over time) if you ever decide they no longer serve you.

 I learned that I am most likely in the codependency r/s. I play both “enabled” role with my dad and “enabler” to uBPDexbf. Being codependent enabler destructed my self-worth, mental & sexual health. It made me even more defensive.

Focusing your attention on the other person is the codependent's avoidance behavior in order to avoid doing the one thing that codependents are terrible at: taking care of themselves.  I say this as someone who is codependent.  Don't be hard on yourself for not being good as something you've been conditioned all your life not to do.  Start getting better. And be your own best advocate/cheerleader/parent.

I lack boundaries and I have no idea what are they. That’s why I let him stepped all over me all the time.

You lack boundaries because you were taught not to have them.  Unfortunately, the lack of boundaries is also what you are most familiar with and comfortable with.  This will take some time and practice to change.  It is worth learning this dynamic because health minded individuals have comfortable and clear boundaries.

[Radcliff]

SlothMaiden, you are doing some great work here    You're setting an example for others of going through the Detaching process and using the resources here.

Make sure to give this process time and be gentle with yourself.  Detaching is hard, exhausting work.  Are there interests, or activities that can give you some joy as you go through this process?

RC

[Turkish]

You deserve to be safe (as do we all).  I think that you realize this now, yes?

[SlothMaiden]

Thank you, schwing, Radcliff & Turkish for taking your time to read & respond to my thread!

You're setting an example for others of going through the Detaching process and using the resources here.

At first I was afraid it would be like too long but I'm glad that someone may find it useful. I applied some of research methodology I learned from grad school (do literature reviews & investigate the facts that lead to the findings) to deal with this situation too so it might look unconventional.  

You deserve to be safe (as do we all).  I think that you realize this now, yes?

Absolutely, yes. I deserve to be safe, feel safe. And I've realized that I don't have to put myself in a harm way.


Onto some of schwing's insights. I really appreciate your thoughts and it would be useful for me to reflect on them later on.

Granted it would be helpful to have cultural understanding between you and whomever you are in a relationship with, however do not underestimate the universality of dysfunctional relationship behaviors.

Yes, this will be useful in future r/s, I guess, since I tend to date foreigners

In my r/s, at first I thought we had quite understanding about our cultural differences, especially that he was very interested in our history & culture so much he read it up the whole nights. Me being from SE Asian country with much of old relationship tradition still exists. Him being from both the US & East Asian country. I myself have been spending time with American cultures & friends my whole life so I know what to expect and I have some ideas about his home country's culture since I had uncle-in-law & neighbors from his home country.

But as you pointed out, dysfunctional relationship behaviors have their ways. Most notably, when I refused to go home and stayed the night with L, the next day my dad wanted to talk to him about father's pride and then told him about how unconventional our relationship had progressed (mostly about my dad feeling ashamed to parade me to sleep with L and it looked like I was trying to loop him into marriage).

L's thin-skinned came out to play as he took it as insult to his ancient "lineage", that he was just a dirty rich Asian guy and that our country's tradition was irrational & useless. He even went so far as that his own father never even crossed the line like this with his older sister (he didn't understand that it's common for fathers in this country to have a "talk" with their soon-to-be-son-in-law). Then he blamed me for allowing my dad to hurt him, that I was disloyal to him and never trusted his advice (to not talk to my dad).

After that, he went into an almost 2-hours silent treatment while we were in the cinema, hitting himself, refusing to let me touch him and started to have dissociation (?) episode as he talked about how he didn't know himself, he believed he has a demon who refuses to let him die and that his demon will destroy my dad, etc.

One major disadvantage in a long distance relationship, is that you end up seeing the other person at their "best" behavior.

I didn't recognize this disadvantage before. Although I now do have some fear about my potential long-distance SO being a cheater or doing things I don't know about. This is going to be a factor that I'm going to keep in mind if I am to enter new r/s.

With L, I only found out about him smoking pot after I agreed to be his girlfriend. I still have no idea how much his accounts about himself or his family were distorted.

You might consider that your father and uBPDexbf may have more in common than you realize.

Yes. Even my dad himself said that L was like him in some ways. Although I don't really see most BPD traits in him (I maybe biased) but he's definitely had difficult life without any family to support him before so he has this idea of "family nest" he wants to provide for us. He has had mental breakdowns from fearing abandonment and being a rock to rely on and an enabler in the family when we had big conflicts (like the last one being triggered by my r/s w/ L) which often ended up in tearful and unresolved situation and he would feel like no one cared for him. Outside people often see my dad as being overprotective and thus spoiled me too much.

Actually, he never understands my depression and often discounts it as only me being too lazy and don't try to live a more meaningful life even though I expressed the suicidal thoughts before.

please try not to "fall into" commitments that will have long reaching consequences

This one right here hit the bull eye and I'm glad you didn't get caught up too! I would have married L if his BPD didn't come out so soon, TBH  He told people about how he wanted to marry me and lived here. He already told his mother & sisters about me. He worked out the plan for the next trip in December, checked up the end of his apartment lease contract. He even asked me about the wedding ceremonies & dresses I wanted and if I wanted to send our kids to his American high school. So from now on, I think I'll be very wary about the guys who talked seriously about marriage in the first stage of r/s.

Abandonment is a kind of betrayal.  You can forgive someone for betraying you.  However, be careful that you have actually forgiven him.  Forgetting is not the same as forgiving.

I am in the same place as you used to be before too. I don't think I can forgive him just yet. But I do know I "forgot" the mistreatment, hurts and fears I had endured from him when he reached out to me for the first time after he took off. So I'll be mindful about this.

I think it's helpful to be in the "anger stage."  Anger can help motivate you to make changes in life.  But first you may need to distill that anger in order to figure out what part and for what reasons you are actually angry.

Would you consider getting professional help to give you assistance in processing everything?  

Yes, I am planning to meet a psychiatrist at my local hospital next week. I am not sure how much s/he can help but I'll try it anyway. Even when I've already dissected and analysed my anger but I think I haven't gotten to the bottom of it yet and I have to process that for quite sometimes. Anger is also part of why I decided to detach from this r/s so I would say that it helps me make a better change in my life somehow. I just have to be careful not to let it consume me.

[SlothMaiden]

Perhaps your parents never gave you the space or permission to express your actual emotions.  Perhaps you were expected to meet your parent's emotional needs and to suppress or even deny your own.  I think you have a lot of self discovery to make before you are in a position to know what is best for you.  You won't find any of this out until you secure for yourself the space (and permission) to find out.

Yeah. I have a long way to go. However, I know I'm an adult now but I don't know how to "secure" my "space" or "permission"? Like, do I need to talk to my parents or I just set the space and give permission to myself to start my discovery? If you don't mind me asking, maybe you can give me some recommended readings or examples.

Figuring out how to "fix" your parents was a survival/coping mechanism when you were a child dependent on your parents.  Now that you are no longer a child, you may be your most important mystery to solve and your own best savior.

These are probably behaviors you have thoroughly practiced with your parents reapplied to uBPDexbf.  You can change these behaviors (over time) if you ever decide they no longer serve you.

Wow, I had no idea that was survival/coping mechanism. I never really thought I have problematic childhood but obviously it plays the vital part of my adulthood too. I think I'll have to find my start on investigating my "case"

Focusing your attention on the other person is the codependent's avoidance behavior in order to avoid doing the one thing that codependents are terrible at: taking care of themselves.  I say this as someone who is codependent.  Don't be hard on yourself for not being good as something you've been conditioned all your life not to do.  Start getting better. And be your own best advocate/cheerleader/parent.

I'll keep in mind that my goal is to take better care of myself and I don't have to entirely depend on other people's approval or support.

You lack boundaries because you were taught not to have them.  Unfortunately, the lack of boundaries is also what you are most familiar with and comfortable with.  This will take some time and practice to change.  It is worth learning this dynamic because health minded individuals have comfortable and clear boundaries.

I think boundaries issue is my most difficult task to start and actually do it. Like you said, I've never been taught about it. Anyway, I just read Harley Quinn's way of rebuilding boundaries in this thread:

After a violent and controlling r/s it's important to rebuild self esteem and to define and maintain our boundaries going forwards.  Have you spent any time thinking on what is important to you?  When you have time and space to yourself I'd suggest taking a notebook and pen somewhere comfortable and letting these things pour onto the page.  Establishing a clear understanding of what our values are is a really valuable first step.  I now practise honouring my values in a conscious way - something that was almost entirely new to me when it came to relationships.  Too frequently I'd let what was important to another trump what I felt strongly about.  I'm sure you can relate.

I think I'll have to take pen & paper to spend a lot of time on setting my boundaries too.

[SlothMaiden]

To answer Radcliff's question here:

Are there interests, or activities that can give you some joy as you go through this process?

Yes. I actually have lots of interests I pursued before I met L. During the time I dated him, I had to abandon most of them because he required most of my time, especially after he started his stay in my country. I even did video calls with him while I was showering or he was on the toilet (yes, you read that right). So I started all these activities again (well, I am a freelancer and don't work on any case right now so I have lots of free time):

  I have started exercising again. I follow 30 days challenge "HASfit’s Foundation Beginner Workout Program" https://hasfit.com/foundation-beginner-workout-program/ which I found them on YouTube. I really like their goals to provide free personal trainers for everyone and be motivational. Although, I don't follow their diet plan or anything, I just eat what I want!  Exercising distracts me a lot since I have to focus on breathing in and out and not holding breath or else I probably pass out  

  I try to keep the journal. It's called "bullet journal" method that is mixture of to-do lists, schedule, diary & art journal (in my case, it's mostly scrapbooking). You can find lots of inspiration and how to adapt it into your life on YouTube. I also include the Japanese "idea keeping" system too, like you jot down any useful things you've done or ideas you have during the day and run them in numbers so you can see get the picture of how many good things you've done to yourself or seeing the ideas that maybe turned into a project later.

  I returned to blogging and I have some offers to write the articles for the prices and already got some commissioned articles to finish. It feels good to earn some money and write about topic I'm passionate about again.

  Tending our new kitten. She's so active, has lots of energy and I try to spend more time with her because she is just really cute  (she looks just like my avatar  ) and wants lots of attention. I'm going to make her some new toys and brush her furs everyday.

  Planning to set up my bedroom so I have my personal space at last. Currently I crash on the coach since I went into major depression during grad school about 3 years ago and abandoned my bedroom to sleep on the coach to try to work on my thesis. So I desperately want my privacy & personal space back. This is going to be a big project that I have to involve my dad a lot for fixing the ceilings & hardware stuffs.

[once removed]

im personally thrilled to see you applying the lessons with focus. nothing was more valuable to me in my recovery than having a good road map of where i was and where i was going, and where i wanted to go... .and having new coping tools along the way. i feel as if it really taught me to grieve, and to actually process, work through, and resolve hurts once and for all, rather than leave it all to "time", which teaches us nothing, and really just takes the edge off the pain.

as youre finding, there are so many facets to detaching... .so many connections made that we couldnt see before, that can give us clues, even all the way back to our childhood, and some of the coping mechanisms that suited us very well at the time, but now cause pain and stagnation in our lives. its hard to unsee those things now, and we are faced with the choice of detaching from them, and working toward Freedom.

there are advantages and disadvantages to this being your first serious relationship. one advantage is that the lessons you learn now will be with you for life, and can take you far. a disadvantage being it doesnt leave a lot of sources of comparison. i think a lot of us decide that its as simple as knowing what BPD looks like and avoiding it in the future. none of that stopped me or others from continuing down the road of dysfunctional relationships. we can by and large only do change directions by getting in touch with ourselves, learning more about other human beings and human nature, seeing that theres a great deal of common every day dysfunction out there in the world and we cant hide from it, determining what it is that we want to find in a partner, and becoming the best version of ourselves that can attract it.

easier said than done  . but doing the work youre doing now will take you far.

[SlothMaiden]

Thank you for dropping by my thread, once removed!  

As you have said, it's gonna be hard work processing through this pain right now but it's better to not just let time solve it all. In that case, I think we will just "forget" not "realize" about what improvement or issue we can work on to have better outcome in r/s next time. You can say it's a waste of time, literally. .

You've raised a good point about us probably entering the "dysfunctional r/s" in the future anyway. I actually kind of wondering about that sometimes too because I can see the pattern I have on selecting mates. Although I recognize some "red flags" now but humans are not perfect creatures and they will come with some downside. So I think it's my task to figure out what I want, what I can tolerate and what I will stay away. Also, it's only fair for my future SO because I have my own problems to figure out too and he's gonna have to deal with it at certain level. I can't expect him to be my savior or my safety net.

My friends tell me to date more.  I would love to, it's just the chance is quite slim for me here. But I tried to go out of my comfort zone. I actually went on a date with another guy who happened to visit my country just earlier this month. I asked for a number from a white guy on the bus and we may go to the dinner next week. And I have been talking to some guys for a couple weeks now. While it might not be enough to be concrete comparison in term of romantic r/s. But I have noticed that these guys are not "actively" try to pursue me to be their girlfriends and they have their own spaces and time they set for themselves, unlike my uPBDexbf. That's the huge difference I noticed and realized that I had the wrong mindset at first place, because I thought if the guy was really into me then he will pay attention on me all the time, and that's why I fell into L's idolization "trap" very easily.

Anyway, I work with clients and other people from all sort of cultures and work environment all the time. Mostly I have to deal with personal issues of clients too so even if it's not romantic r/s, they're still interpersonal r/s and that I can observe them from the side to gain some knowledge. I usually like to do that all the time because it's easier to observe from something or someone you're detached from.

[Cromwell]

Hi SlothMaiden

Your post is so insightful and I admire how you can reflect on what you have been through and try to make sense of it.

What stands out is these goals you are setting, to see beyond the relationship but still acknowledge it at the same time. The goals of moving forward but in detail, organised and written down as things to strive for.

I feel the theme I can relate to is where you say that this bond together was a form of two people with past issues combining.

Have you got to a stage yet where the thought that this relationship could not be viewed so much as a failure but as a potential conduit towards having highlighted so much?

I was thinking to myself of how much I have changed, not so much to the core, and nothing that can erase the past, but rather how if I would have met my ex now, I wouldnt be recognisable as the person I was in the circumstances we did. It was part circumstantial that our lives crossed paths in the first place, that the relationship endured - based on dynamics at the time. But circumstances also led to its demise, just as each year the seasons change and do not remain constant. Life goes on but there is opportunity in the here and now to make changes regardless of what has happened in the past.

Nowadays I think to myself, im probably just a few steps away not from being depressed or anxious - i moved on considerably from that, but from real fulfillment, if only I can shake off and concentrate on making some changes, finding solutions, having confidence whereby it had been knocked down. I see results by doing what you are doing now, goal setting and striving. My life has changed radically from where it was, in a very small space of time, not by chance but taking charge of it. Its to the extent that i moved on from what was a 'dream' like state and achieved concrete, measurable, real world accomplishments. It is such a contrast that I often feel a disbelief of having to pinch myself to see if I am not really dreaming.

It is our own limiting thoughts that can be the worst enemy, it might have felt wonderful when you felt your ex accepted you where others judged you, the truth is, he is not the only one in existence that you happened by chance to find.

When I started dating again, I met women who were more attractive than my ex, treated me with respect, I had to hold back the rush I felt that in the midst of moving on from the hurt, that I didnt get swayed away in a new dreamlike state of formerly being a rescuer, now being rescued. I took a step back and evaluated new potentional relationships less emotively then I did with my BPDx.

Whilst my ex idolised me, the word 'fantasy' is a good one. I never put a sensible safety guage on this idolisation, I saw it as romantic and I got carried along with it. The net result, a bitter disappointment, beyond what defines any normal break up.

I wasnt happy with my job for the past few months, yet I couldnt detach for reasons that werent even financially related, id left jobs in the past even when I was financially dependent on them, it wasnt that. I resigned recently and feel so much happier for it, along with insight based on what ive learned about myself viz a viz this failed relationship.

When I start to appreciate how much the experience has enhanced my life, anger subsided, I could shake my ex's hand today and say "thanks for the new perspective, that you arent the one for me, but without meeting you I might never have fully appreciated that I wanted more than I settled for -  if anything, our time together has given me more empathy and compassion for you and I thank you for the opportunity and want you to know I wont be carrying any of the hurt that you inflicted into the future"

[SlothMaiden]

Thank you, Cromwell, for your story & insight! You've clearly demonstrated how your perspectives have changed over the course of process and I hope it will come to me one day too.

Have you got to a stage yet where the thought that this relationship could not be viewed so much as a failure but as a potential conduit towards having highlighted so much?

Similarly, I can relate to your experiences. I think I'm on my way to that stage where I look at this r/s in more positive light, not just a failure to add into my lifelong list of what I couldn't succeed. I wouldn't say my anger has all extinguished yet, I still feel the pain from it. But I've been trying to process that this event is an eye-opener to me. I like how you applied your detachment process to your jobs too, which means these tools are crucial in every stage of our life.

Coincidentally, this r/s and my career also had entwined with each other. My uBPDexbf was a very smart guy. He tried to help me be more "independent" by moving out of my parents' house and finding the new, regular job. If it wasn't for him, I wouldn't have decided to submit the resume to the firm I never thought of applying. He tried to push me to "spread my wings". That was a fresh take in my career.

But I also recognized that he didn't really suggest that to "help me" or that he was genuinely happy to see my accomplishments. It was his way of controlling me. It was just a projection he had on me, the idolized version of my "independence" that will serve him in the future (like if I have my own time and money, I can be with him all the time) and fill his own void of not successfully achieving his own independence (since he couldn't hold a job and still has to rely on his mother). So he was the one who ignited my desire to use my full potential, career-wise, which is good motivation. But I've changed my mindset from doing it just to try to make him stay, to doing it for my future, to getting out of my comfort zone. I'm grateful that he made me get up & change.

Whilst my ex idolised me, the word 'fantasy' is a good one. I never put a sensible safety guage on this idolisation, I saw it as romantic and I got carried along with it. The net result, a bitter disappointment, beyond what defines any normal break up.

I feel the same way, that's why it hurts so much. Detachment has been helping me moving from the "trance-like" state that fogs my mind and I have to pinch myself to remind me that these are not just dreams too that I've made it this far. Now I can take a step back when I meet someone new I fancy and evaluate if it is really the real feeling or just my codependent self yearning for it. I hope I'll get to your level where it will be less emotional when it comes to dating though.

So, right now, I think I appreciate this r/s more than before as it acts like my wake-up call.

 

My detachment processing (stage 3) update #1:

I have noticed that there is certain limits on number of replies in each thread so I'll just use the remaining characters to include my small update.

So far I don't really feel sad or resentment anymore and I have reflected on lots of issues I've listed above. While I still have to work on my anger and how not to lash out that emotion on people, I've come to term with why this detachment is necessary for me in term of mental & physical health.

For the last 5 years, I have had panic disorder that I never got it treated properly. Most of the time I would have the low-level of panic attack called "Limited Symptom Attacks" aka LSA which involves only 3 or less symptoms of regular 4 symptoms of panic attack. It would sneak out on me when I am just chilling on the sofa at home. So I know the trigger is just me being too isolated or too stressful to deal with anxiety or overthinking things. My symptoms mostly include shortness of breath, the feeling that I can't breath properly or choking, chest tightness and sometimes heart palpitations and feeling of dread or that I'm going crazy.

However, maybe I was a bit too into detachment process and overdid myself. Yesterday I had a couple of very long LSA throughout the day that made me soo uncomfortable and very miserable. I couldn't find any joy in what I watched or even when I did the daily workout program. It got so bad that I thought it would go on forever. It continued to subside considerably when I talked on the phone with my BFF though but it still didn't go completely away.

As I had an appointment with the OB/GYN regarding my STI test result, and I was planning to go to the psychiatrist at the local hospital already to find the professional support during my process. Today was the perfect opportunity for me to address these LSAs at last.

Firstly, I was disappointed that my OB/GYN doctor didn't test me for some STI diseases because I don't have any symptom right now but I felt a lot calmer knowing that I didn't catch something life-threatening and that L was partly clean as he (and his previous test results) said. I felt a lot less agitated although I still have some fear about the diseases I haven't got tested for. Fortunately, no LSA came after I received the result.

Then I quickly went to get the cue at mental health ward since I never had appointment before. After the nurse asked some screening question, I told her about LSA since it was my main problem right now. Luckily for me that the psychiatrist decided to take my case immediately (meaning I didn't have to wait until the next appointment to actually meet her in person).

The psychiatrist is younger than I first anticipated. But she listened to me patiently and without judgement. So I told her about my ongoing LSA and the stress I was in because of me recently getting out of r/s w/ my uBPDexbf. At first I thought she would have only 5 mins to talk since lots of patients in public hospital but I could get most of the main points of my r/s off my chest for about half an hour and she seemed genuinely understanding of what I had gone through.

At last, she prescribed me drugs for panic disorder, Zoloft (Sertraline) & Ativan (Lorazepam) for long-term treatment and Xanax for "emergency use" only when I have acute panic attack. I have read that Xanax can be addictive though so I'll avoid that one. And I just found out that Ativan might interfere with my pre-existed condition which I'm not sure if I should take it. So I have to go back to hospital again.

My BFF warned me about she prescribing me drugs too soon though. Anyone has experience on these drugs? (Maybe I'll post the new thread about this later).


Note: Thanks, Harri, for censoring L's name. I'm so sorry I didn't make it clear in my post that it is made-up name, not real name so I wasted your time for editing it out. I'll stick with just L from now on.

Have a good day, everyone!
SlothMaiden 

[once removed]

Anyone has experience on these drugs?

i was on zoloft for a bit. powerful medicine, but like anything, can have difficult side effects. i used xanex a couple of times for emergencies... .in a pinch, it can be very effective. certainly youll want to keep your psychiatrist posted on the process.

during my breakup, i used an herbal supplement called passion flower for anxiety attacks. powerful stuff and worked like a charm. you might look into it, but check with your psychiatrist, there could certainly be interactions with the prescriptions youre taking.

[Harri]

No worries SlothMaiden!  I was reading while editing and now I get to say hello and nice to meet you!

I am sorry to hear you are struggling with anxiety.  I do too but my meds help a bit as does therapy and posting here. 

I took Zoloft (Sertraline) for and it helped but sometimes after a while you need to switch so I did.  I take Prozac now along with Buproprion which help with anxiety and depression. 

Careful with the Ativan as it too can be habit forming.  Did the doctor tell you about that?  I take Ativan when I have to have certain medical tests (usually MRI) and it is quite helpful but then I sleep the rest of the day.   

Ask about it when you ask about the other med.  I am glad you sought out help.

[schwing]

Yeah. I have a long way to go. However, I know I'm an adult now but I don't know how to "secure" my "space" or "permission"? Like, do I need to talk to my parents or I just set the space and give permission to myself to start my discovery? If you don't mind me asking, maybe you can give me some recommended readings or examples.

I think you have at least two layers of processing to work through.  The most immediate is the aftermath of your current BPD relationship.  When I broke up with my BPD loved one, most of what I was dealing with, I primarily attributed to what happened in that relationship.  It wasn't until years later that I started to see how my parental interpersonal dynamics were entwined with the BPD dynamics I experienced in the relationship.

It might be too soon to really look into your dynamic with your father (and perhaps your mother) and how there may or may not be common qualities with your relationship with L.  It may also be difficult so long as you are living under the same roof especially dependent on if your parents are able/willing to be objective about hearing what your (emotional) needs are.

So long as you are (living with them), I think the best way to get "space" and "permission" is to have some place to go/ some society you can spend time with that is wholly disconnected from your family of origin (FoO).  Ideally, you might consider some kind of support group like CoDA or Alanon.   But I think any place where you can become comfortable enough to check-in on how you actually feel.

You might not realize just how much you end up censoring your own feelings while you are still living with your FoO.  During my first several years out of my FoO's home I suffered a bit of an emotional breakdown which I did not understand while I was having it.  Years after the fact, and years after my primary BPD relationship, I realized that I was unloading all the emotional angst that I had building up while living with my family which I could never "safely" unpack while I was still living there.

Examples of this angst: My emotional well being should not have been secondary to my parent's emotional well being.  I am not responsible for my parents happiness -- I needed to figure out my own emotional needs.  Having parents who are emotionally stunted left me behind the curve when it came to emotional intelligence.

Again, I think your most immediate priority is just taking care of yourself in the aftermath of your relationship with L.  Just keep in mind that whenever you find your FoO getting in the way of this healing process, you may begin to develop some awareness as to how your parent's emotional limitations have come to shape you over the years.

Best wishes,

Schwing

[JNChell]

Hi there, SlothMaiden! You are doing some great work! Kudos! This is tough stuff, but you have sunk your heals in here. We’re very happy to spend time with you.

Thank you, Cromwell, for your story & insight! You've clearly demonstrated how your perspectives have changed over the course of process and I hope it will come to me one day too.

Cromwell is great, and you will most definitely get there. It’s very easy to recognize. We know that it’s hard, but your perseverance is very visible. You should be proud of yourself.

I wouldn't say my anger has all extinguished yet, I still feel the pain from it. But I've been trying to process that this event is an eye-opener to me.

I’m glad to see that you have a good grasp on the stages of grief and how they’re not linear. It really helps to understand that. The emotions (stages) can come from anywhere at anytime. It’s good that you’re prepared.

Now I can take a step back when I meet someone new I fancy and evaluate if it is really the real feeling or just my codependent self yearning for it.

Wise observation, SM. Isn’t it something, looking back, how quickly the heat picked up speed? I’m sure that whirlwind romances can develop and stand the test of time, but from what I’ve researched most relationships that stand the test of time are slowly built. It’s a process of building trust, seeing if values are mostly in line, recognizing virtues and interests, seeing how they treat others, etc. It slowly grows into a whirlwind of love and passion. It isn’t forced. Naturally, we can’t force a flower to grow. Once that flower grows, we can’t force a bee to pollinate it. The two just come together, naturally.

[SlothMaiden]

Thanks, once remove & Harri (hello!), for your input regarding the meds.

I started taking Zoloft on my birthday 3 days ago. I haven’t taken the full dose yet. The side effects I have are dry throat & mouth. Then get the numbing or tingling or burning sensation all over body during the day. I researched online and found some people had these too and hopefully it will pass.

I only took Ativan once because my panic attack got so bad after a dispute with mom so I needed to sleep it off without using Xanax. I read that Ativan is meant to be short-term to starve off the symptoms until Zoloft starts to be effective so even though my doctor prescribed me to take it every night, I only take as needed (when I can’t sleep) since I don’t know if I will get dependency on it as my dad’s got dependency history with this kind of drug. Too bad they don't have Passion Flower here or else I would wanna try it too.


To schwing,

Thanks again for your insight. I definitely can resonate with your experience on your family. My dad always says that he’s hurt, physically & emotionally and voices it out. Then my mom, sister & me would stay shut up so we don’t get into argument. I think that's how I always feel like my feelings are not important.

It’s unfortunate that we don’t have that kind of support group here. I don’t think my country’s people even have any idea about codependency because living with parents are the norm with Asians already and that we are taught to obey them. I might find the physical space from FoO at the nearby cafe sometimes but that’s it. So BPD Family is kinda my sole support in term of checking in my process.


Hi, JNChell!

Thanks for your input and encouragement. Yes, it’s kinda hard to go through the grieving processes as it comes and goes in no particular order even though I’m prepared. My anxiety & depression keep pulling out those files so I try to stay mindful and be with myself.

but from what I’ve researched most relationships that stand the test of time are slowly built. It’s a process of building trust, seeing if values are mostly in line, recognizing virtues and interests, seeing how they treat others, etc. It slowly grows into a whirlwind of love and passion. It isn’t forced. Naturally, we can’t force a flower to grow. Once that flower grows, we can’t force a bee to pollinate it. The two just come together, naturally.

I like your analogy. From my gardening experience (which is really bad), flowers are hard to grow and maintain  Yes, I recognized how I got carried away so quickly. It’s a whirlwind romance that each party seeks out something that doesn’t exist so it ends up in void. I do still have hope to find my whirlwind love in the future though.

My detachment processing (stage 3) & creative action (stage 4) update #2:

It’s been really hard since my birthday. I missed L so much, I was hoping he would reach out and wish me happy birthday but nothing (he could still unblock and reach out through facebook or email if he wants to but I blocked him other communication ways).

I am recycling denial stage and keeps thinking about how he said we don’t have relationship anymore and that he just did me a favor by calling me back to check in with me. It’s hard to accept that this is really over, either from my end or his.

The next day, I tried to control my panic attacks without taking meds. I was watching Tibetan monk’s story of how he deals with his own panic disorder. My dad walked in and saw it then asked about it. I casually retold his story briefly then I told him having panic attack is what I went to the doctor for. And that I didn’t want to take Xanax.

Then he tried to ask me what is it and told me his stories about battling with his own addiction & bla,bla,bla. He just had to make it about himself all the time. So after a while, I zoned out and just told him to stop talking. He said that I should try finding hobby like tending to the house like Zen monk tending to the zen garden. (To be fair, my dad does most of housework though. But you know, me in depression don’t even wanna eat even when I’m hungry). I’m just so sick of him talking.

Then, just this morning, I heard my dad talking to my sister about being mentally ill is caused by laziness. I got upset and cried because I felt like he invalidated my feeling and, my condition. I regretted telling him about my struggle with panic disorder because I feel he turns it around to hurt me again. But I say nothing to him now because it’s no use. He will never understand. I only told him because I’m having undesirable side effects that makes me agitated and even more unreasonable sometimes so he wouldn’t think I’m being moody just for the sake of it.

My panic attacks come and go all day, sometimes just light tightness in chest, sometimes it’s a full blown LSA. It gets worse when it comes to paying bills  It’s been really tight and I am lost at how to earn more money when I can’t even function properly enough to be committed with full-time job. I would blow up and go into major depression again.

So far, my detachment stage has been halted by other personal turmoils. I don’t really have to time to reflect on it that much. Denial, anger, depression are all jumbled in this big emotion washing machine and it keeps spinning around.

However, I think I also vented out my anger to my dad, specifically. I re-read the paragraphs above and found that I’m angry because I blame him for my emotional pain. Maybe he is not validating enough but he only helps me the only way he knows how, to make me see the truth that I suffer from attachment to the disappointment I encountered.

Anyway, I missed 3 days of workout program because changes of plan. But it’s already the new month here so I will workout right after I finish posting this. I want to get healthier so I will not have to take meds for too long. And it will make me feel better about myself. Then I help taking care our cats and such and try to be useful (partly so my dad would stop voicing out his pain too).

I also went to watch Ralph Breaks the Internet and I really like it! The story carries on message about putting a space between each other so each can pursue their own enjoyments and purposes without each feeling left out or oppressed. I’m actually surprised how the writers eased us into the understanding at the end without feeling forced or cliche. This really reflects on me about the importance of spaces and boundaries in any r/s.

Ok, that’s it for now. I hope y’all have a good weekend!

SlothMaiden 

[Turkish]

Then, just this morning, I heard my dad talking to my sister about being mentally ill is caused by laziness. I got upset and cried because I felt like he invalidated my feeling and, my condition.

Of course that was invalidating,  and hurtful. I'm sorry that he said that.  Do you have anyone else safe to share with?

[SlothMaiden]

Of course that was invalidating,  and hurtful. I'm sorry that he said that.  Do you have anyone else safe to share with?

Yes. I mostly talk about it with my BFF. She also has r/s w/ uBPD guy. She's the only one I feel safe to share my feelings. There are some people (long time online friends who are not associated with FoO) I feel I can talk to but I haven't opened up with them just yet. They know I've gone through detachment from r/s but don't really know about my panic disorder.

[Harri]

Hi again!     A belated Happy Birthday to you!   

So far, my detachment stage has been halted by other personal turmoils. I don’t really have to time to reflect on it that much. Denial, anger, depression are all jumbled in this big emotion washing machine and it keeps spinning around.

Do you think the denial, anger and depression are separate from the detaching process or is there a link there?  It is harder when other issues seem to interfere with our process.  I wonder though if viewing everything as part of the same process would be helpful? 

[SlothMaiden]

Thank you, Harri, for the birthday wish!

Do you think the denial, anger and depression are separate from the detaching process or is there a link there?  It is harder when other issues seem to interfere with our process.  I wonder though if viewing everything as part of the same process would be helpful? 

Yes, I think there's a link between detaching process and all those emotions. The start of all this is my decision to detach and it just triggered everything out. It's hard to see everything as the same story because the r/s I tried to detach from didn't seem real to me anymore and the conflicts inside my household seems more real. But it all comes down to the fact that I'm healing from the breakup and it is affecting my reactions to everything. So you're right, I have to see all these anxiety, depression, denial & anger as part of detaching process.

[once removed]

However, I think I also vented out my anger to my dad, specifically

this might sound trite, but have you ever laid out for your dad "this (example) is what i need from you and how you can best support me"?

ive found that often times people just want to help in whatever way they know, and even though its well intentioned, it may not be what we need and may be more hurtful than helpful... .sometimes clarifying to a person what i need from them, and what id like them to do less of, really helps.

[SlothMaiden]

this might sound trite, but have you ever laid out for your dad "this (example) is what i need from you and how you can best support me"?

ive found that often times people just want to help in whatever way they know, and even though its well intentioned, it may not be what we need and may be more hurtful than helpful... .sometimes clarifying to a person what i need from them, and what id like them to do less of, really helps.

Thanks, once removed, for the suggestion. I have never tried that. I actually don't know what I want from him in support. So far I don't really feel anger towards him or my family anymore. I'll try laying out the "framework" for him if the issue arises next time. Now I need to think about what to ask for.