If you married a pwBPD instead of Detaching did you think they would get better?

[Hopefulgirl]

I was just wondering if those of you who married someone with BPD and they were not under treatment , did you do so thinking they would get better? Or did you think you would just learn to cope with it better.  Did getting married change the relationship drastically, for better or for worse?

[JNChell]

Hi, Hopefulgirl. I didn’t marry my pwBPD so I hope I’m not treading where I shouldn’t. We do share a child. He’ll be 4 on Sunday.

I didn’t know about the extent of my son’s mother’s condition until after he was born. I didn’t know about mine either.

After time and things unraveled, yes. I believed that I could save everything. We went through couples counseling which she sabotaged each time.

As I said, we were never bound by the state, but we lived the married life for a short time. I bought us a house on a beautiful piece of property. A pond that was full of fish. We used to row out on the water and fish together.

I used to think all of things that you describe. Letting go is hard, Hopefulgirl. What is on your mind about things right now specifically? How can we help you through it?

[Hopefulgirl]

     I was reading about how many people with BPD go through a type of "remission" when they find a stable living environment.  I was thinking about my exbf with BPD who is getting married next year. He told me he was very content and stable (after he got engaged) and i ran into a close friend of his who tells me he is doing well.  I start thinking, if i had been more "wifey" toward him would he have not discarded me the way he did?  I guess that seems like a silly question. The person he's with talked about getting married and spending their lives together after seeing each other for 6 weeks. 
I guess Im like a lot of people, thinking the person they end up with was just better wife/husband material.  Or just Better. Or maybe she just tolerates his BPD behavior (mood swings, perpetual lying, neediness- then emotional and physical abandonment, days not leaving house smoking pot).  Maybe he's just become a "new man". 
I guess its probably just one more thing in my brain I will never get an answer to.

[JNChell]

I was reading about how many people with BPD go through a type of "remission" when they find a stable living environment.

I’ve read this here and there as well. I’ll also point out to be careful about the information that you accept. This support group is as solid as it gets when it comes to subjects like these.

pwBPD do return to baseline (remission). If they continue to go untreated, they can’t stay at their baseline. They will behave differently with different people because, well, it’s a different situation. What isn’t different is their personality and behaviors. Those will remain the same if untreated. 

if i had been more "wifey" toward him would he have not discarded me the way he did?

Are you still in contact with him? It’s hard to know how he would’ve acted towards you if you had acted in the way you described. I’m curious about your thoughts on how you might be feeling right now if you were still with him. Are you comfortable in sharing some details about the relationship? Do you wish that the two of you were still together?

[SherlockTheDog]

One thing I've come to understand, is that BPD isn't like depression. It's a personality disorder, and can be managed better if they're going through dialectical behavioral therapy.

But my brother was very insightful when I mentioned a similar thing you're mentioning. Which is the four stages of grief; one being bargaining. "If only I did XYZ, thing would be ok" or "If only I stuck it out, it would have gotten better" but time and time again we learn that when people marry in hopes of the red flags going away, they typically don't.

The prospect of marriage is what made me reconsider my entire relationship. And I felt guilty for not wanting to be married to someone with BPD. Although this may not be put nicely, the answer to this Quora question made me realize that I couldn't be with this person. He basically described my relationship, and after reading all that, I thought "Well, i'll put up with being unhappy so she's happy" and that one thought made me realize I have been putting her thoughts and feelings above mine, and that's not what a relationships, or marriage should be about.

It's hard, but you have to take care of you. You didn't cause this person to be how they are.

[Ozzie101]

I married a person with BPD -- without being aware of it.

Our relationship was pretty quick. From first date to wedding was 11 months. But we were also 41 (him) and 39 (me) and thought, well, we know what we're doing. Why waste more time?

For the first year and a half, things were great. Yes, he was moody. There were times when he would get annoyed with me over something. I chalked a lot of things up to me and my fault. I didn't have a ton of long-term relationship experience and had lived on my own my entire adult life so there was a learning curve.

It's only in the last six months that the BPD has become obvious. It's still undiagnosed, but he has most of the characteristics and the therapist I met with last week agreed that, based on what I've experienced, that's what's going on.

If I'd known going in what he could really be like I wouldn't have done it. As it is, I'm trying to figure out what I want to do.

[Lucky Jim]

Hey hopefulgirl, Like Ozzie, I had no idea that my W had BPD and, Yes, I assumed that her "temper" was due to immaturity and would decrease over time.  I was under the impression that her volatility was attributable, at least in part, to anxiety about the lack of commitment prior to marriage.

Yet it turned out that her symptoms intensified over the course of our marriage and became increasingly unmanageable for me as spouse/object of her abuse.  So, yes, I would say that things changed for the worse after marriage, but it was a long decline over many years.

I thought that I could crack the BPD Code, but BPD proved too much for me.

LuckyJim

[H2H]

Hi Hopefulgirl, that's a good question! I wish I'd thought of it before I got married.

In my defense though, I'd never heard of  BPD when I married my husband back in the late 1960's. I had told him no, thanks, I wasn't going to marry him, I didn't like the way he sometimes treated me. Then he went to counseling, he changed, and after several months of behavior that was good and loving, I thought things were fine. And they were, for most of the marriage.

But after retirement, he changed so much. He went to counseling, then we tried marriage counseling, then I finally was able to afford counseling for myself. Nothing worked, he had in patient treatment, years of counseling, DBT, but he still lied to me and about me, and spent our retirement money, and raged at me whenever he felt bad, which was almost daily. It was such a shock.

Now I don't know if he will ever get better. He can't handle his emotions, and he is so afraid of them, he finds too many destructive ways to avoid them.

Maybe he was in remission for much of the marriage. Maybe his workaholism was enough to keep things at bay. Maybe the stability of work and marriage were enough to keep him in reality. I hope he finds peace. I can't give it to him, he has to be able to face himself, own his stuff, and there's no way I can help him do that.

I spent years trying to, we'd been married so long, I loved him so much, I wanted it to work. I did everything the marriage counselor suggested. I know I gave everything I had to help him, to reach him, to love him, and to be honest, I gave more than I had, and I'm still paying for that.

But he didn't change, he just found new ways to run from reality.  I know there are people with BPD who do get better, but as far as I know that's only with treatment and the person has to be willing to work and commit to change. I don't know if he can.

I don't think there's a single thing you could have done to make your exbf better. BPD is not just a bad childhood or anxiety or depression that medication and counseling can help.I'm still learning about it myself, but I think the damage is so deep, that no single person can help the pwBPD heal. I've read that even therapists who treat BPD are advised to not work alone, it takes a whole  treatment team. And even then, the pwBPD has to be able to commit to change, and that is very hard and scary work.

[toomanydogs]

     I was reading about how many people with BPD go through a type of "remission" when they find a stable living environment.  I was thinking about my exbf with BPD who is getting married next year. He told me he was very content and stable (after he got engaged) and i ran into a close friend of his who tells me he is doing well.  I start thinking, if i had been more "wifey" toward him would he have not discarded me the way he did?  I guess that seems like a silly question. The person he's with talked about getting married and spending their lives together after seeing each other for 6 weeks. 
I guess Im like a lot of people, thinking the person they end up with was just better wife/husband material.  Or just Better. Or maybe she just tolerates his BPD behavior (mood swings, perpetual lying, neediness- then emotional and physical abandonment, days not leaving house smoking pot).  Maybe he's just become a "new man". 
I guess its probably just one more thing in my brain I will never get an answer to.

  I married by pwBPD (semi-diagnosed, meaning one doc said he had PD Not Otherwise Specified because he had symptoms from numerous PDs). I knew that he was ill, and I believed, quite naively, that he would "get better" once in a stable environment.
  He did not.
  I was with him for 11 years, and I worked my butt off to provide a stable environment, including establishing a therapeutic like setting in which he had continuity of care with docs and caregivers. (He was very low-functioning.)
  He left me, maintaining I stole from him and his caregivers stole from him. He also maintains that his father steals from him, that he invented the internet, and that he is worth billions. It is delusional thinking.
  Within 2 weeks of leaving me, he was frequenting hookers, maintaining they were "in love" with him. He joined sex clubs. And then he found her: the woman he'd been searching for all his life. She dumped him a month into the relationship.
  I fell into that thinking that you reference, believing that if I had been better, if I had been more accommodating, if I had been more sexual (never mind that he turned me into his mother and sex felt very uncomfortable), if I had been... .whatever. I couldn't be what he wanted because he didn't know what he wanted, and he is not capable of being in a long-term, intimate relationship. He was fine, even wonderful, when we knew each other for a month. I'd also been the woman he'd been looking for all his life.
  He is sick, and I'd venture to guess your boyfriend is as well. In my experience, the personality disorders don't improve without the person committing to long-term, intensive, difficult therapy. My STBX did not. He wanted a pill that would make him all better, or rather a pill that would make people say he was all better. He absolutely refused to engage in significant therapy. Not just my opinion. His T told me (As I said, I was more of a mother by the end, and the T talked with me as he would a patient's mother. I had a POA)
  His T told me that until my STBX gave up his investment in being ill, he wouldn't get better. His T also told me that my STBX would actually prefer a butler to a T.
  His P, on the other hand, bought right into this idea of a diseased brain and dismissed every abusive thing my STBX did, maintaining that all actions coming from my STBX were actions dictated by a diseased brain.
 In case it doesn't show, I'm no big fan of psychiatrists and a solely biological approach to the PDs.
  Anyway this is my long way of saying that marriage did not permanently improve my STBX. There were times that I thought the stability was having an impact. Maybe? I don't know, but in the end, after 11 years, he left, painted me black, and his P supported his vision of me.
  I started picking up the pieces about 9 months after he left, and now I'd say I'm pretty much over him. I can look at what he did that was wonderful and what he did that was cruel and so deranged that the wonderful could never offset it.
  Gosh, I hope I didn't waylay your initial question. It really got to me.   
TMD

[Lucky Jim]

BPD is not just a bad childhood or anxiety or depression that medication and counseling can help.I'm still learning about it myself, but I think the damage is so deep, that no single person can help the pwBPD heal. I've read that even therapists who treat BPD are advised to not work alone, it takes a whole  treatment team. And even then, the pwBPD has to be able to commit to change, and that is very hard and scary work.

Nicely said, H2H.  The last part, about the pwBPD taking responsibility and committing to change, proved elusive in my marriage.  Blame-shifting is central to the disorder, in my view, because those w/BPD are unlikely to accept that they contribute to the problems that arise.

LJ

[Red5]

I was just wondering if those of you who married someone with BPD and they were not under treatment , did you do so thinking they would get better? Or did you think you would just learn to cope with it better.  Did getting married change the relationship drastically, for better or for worse?

Hello,

I am recently separated from my own uBPDw, .like she just moved out on Sunday.

Eleven year relationship, and January would be eight years married.

I had no idea what BPD even was up till January of 2017.

The entire relationship/marriage has been fraught with arguments, fights, destruction, and just unbelievable dysregulations... .

We are both in our fifties now, both married previously, both over twenty years of (previous) marriage... .

So what did I think when the fist shoe dropped, well I though this,
*We were both independent and on our own for several years, after our divorces, her seven years, me five... .so I chalked it up to "hard headiness'... .stubbornness, due to being and living independent... .

Yes, I thought "marriage" would solidify things, that we would settle, like the foundation of a new house... .but there was no "settling"... .

It got worse and worse, we even separated after about five months of marriage, she moved back into her own home, we stayed separated for six months, we went to MC, a whopping three sessions... .then we "got back together".

So right back to constant fighting... .some were quite violent, total disregard, complete destruction both physical, and emotional... .terrible.

Then one night, in desperation, I found shrink4men... .then that led me to another website, then here to BPDfam... .

... .and I read all about BPD, and npd.

My story is a long one, .and looks like it is now finally over.

So to answer the question, .yes, I thought marriage would "fix it"... .but it didn't, it got much much worse, and she is not diagnosed (BPD), and she never will be... .she is not going to get "help"... .ever.

I tried on several occasions to get her to go to "family counseling" again... .each time she flatly refused.

She is also a stage iv r-c-c dx as well,

Red5

[Hopefulgirl]

JNChell- there's a lot to say about our relationship but I was in love with him and the person he is marrying is the one he basically abandoned me for. There's only been contact once in the past 6 months when I acknowledged I found out that he was engaged. Found out from Instagram of course. And he was very demure about it. Funny thing is he still sees an ex-girlfriend of his who I run into occasionally, she told me that they call each other and when he comes to town during the week he comes over to her house to catch up.

SherlockTheDog- people would say to me he can't sustain a relationship with anyone. But he's getting married. And I think, people with BPD deserve a chance at happily-ever-after, don't they? But how many red flags are enough to say, "this will never work". As my dear Mom used to say marriage takes work, even with people who don't have a mental disorder LOL, can you imagine the daily anguish and walking on eggshells to endure?. The whole "idealize - devalue - discard" thing would sometimes go down all within the same week!

H2H- I'm so sorry you went through all that. To try so hard and put your heart into a person. Someone once described it as like pouring water into a colander and watching and go down the drain. It's such a helpless feeling. My ex took 4 medicines and made me think he was seeking help in counseling but he always quit it, and blamed the counselor is being insensitive (oh the irony!).

Toomanydogs- you didn't waylay my question. I thank you so much for telling your story. You reminded me of what I went through and why it wouldn't work. She provides him with financial stability ( she has a sizable inheritance and he's never maintained an income) and a free place to live but he has always tried to maintain his independence by going away sporadically days at a time.

I guess at some point I just need to let it all go and wish him the best with his marriage. He once told me he was looking for a place to belong, and in his mind I guess he's found it and that's it.

[Turkish]

Didn't get married,  but we had a kid.  It did get better for a little while. I bought us a house to settle down.  I later found a note, "I have everything I ever wanted,  why am I still unhappy?" I found a previous note on our computer,  "Daddy having cereal with [son]. Maybe this is it and I can finally let go [of her past]."

Kids make it harder, no matter what one might think initially. 

It took over a year after she left me for another and married him, but the triggers came and she kicked him out.  She thought he was The One. There is no One, only us as individuals,  free to make our own choices,  good or bad. 

[empath]

I got married not knowing about BPD, and like many of us, our dating period was pretty short before we got married. There were oddities in my h's story that he told me; I brushed them off as just odd things and ways of dealing with life events. I

Over the years, we had our share of problems. I would look at the problems as isolated from the other ones and try to address each individually. I also had a sense that h would react much like a child in foster care might. So, I knew that a stable relationship could make a difference. Then about 5-6 years ago, I read something about BPD and a light bulb went off for me. The issues were related and fell in line with BPD. H hasn't been dx - but the Ts that he has seen recently have both said things that were in the ball park.

Our relationship worked as long as I was the live-in therapist/ security blanket/ sex object. I got tired of that kind of existence and the financial instability and refusal to provide for me and the kids. We had people in our lives that were concerned about our family life for some of the same reasons. Then, our youngest d described something that h had done to her. The truth started coming out; I was painted black. I had to distance myself emotionally and physically for my own safety. I couldn't pretend that everything was okay anymore because I wanted healing for all of us; the only way was to be honest about what was happening.

Eventually, h dysregulated and had a mental health crisis and had to leave our home. He's been gone for 9 months now and wants to come back. My d and I are better now than when he was here, and he has become more impulsive lately. I'm not willing to let him come back without some serious commitment to long-term T and evidence of changed behavior also long term.

I came to the realization that I couldn't make him better because I couldn't just be his live-in therapist and security blanket. I'm not sure that he would really be better if I were to do that anyway.

[MeandThee29]

I'm not willing to let him come back without some serious commitment to long-term T and evidence of changed behavior also long term.

I came to the realization that I couldn't make him better because I couldn't just be his live-in therapist and security blanket. I'm not sure that he would really be better if I were to do that anyway.

Traits of BPD might be something you can live with. In retrospect, mine had signs very early on, but we managed for a long time before aspects of PTSD came in as well and made it all much more difficult.

IMHO marriage won't change anything unless they are committed to the hard work of changing their thinking patterns. You shouldn't be a live-in therapist and security blanket. Certainly partners should be each other's advisors and a source of security, but there is a line you have to watch. You are not responsible for your partner's happiness and bad choices they make. That sort of thing.

[H2H]

Lucky Jim, oh, so true, the blame shifting! Somehow it was always my fault. Even though he hid the mail and refused to let me see the checkbook for years, I was seen as the controlling one who didn't let him have money. There are such huge blind spots in my pwBPD, and it sounds like that's pretty common. And the willingness to take responsibility to do the work, that was elusive in my marriage as well.

Thanks, Hopeful Girl. That is an excellent description. I wish I didn't still sometimes feel that I should help plug the holes. Even though I know I can't, detaching is hard. I'm not all the way there yet.

Empath, that sounds too familiar. I was my husband's live in therapist too. I didn't really mind, as long as he treated me well. Looking back, I think I should never have become that, but emotions were not hard for me, so I thought it was ok, sort of like well, everybody has their strengths and weaknesses, and in a partnership, we each contribute what we can. Now I see that that only made him less competent to handle his emotions, it wasn't really helping him. 

I'm so sorry for what happened to you. Being painted black is horrible, been there, still happening. I agree with you that nothing can heal without honesty. Honesty seems terrifying to my pwBPD. Do you think your h can be honest? You and your daughter deserve a safe place to live in.

[SherlockTheDog]

@hopefulgirl

They do deserve a chance at happiness. They deserve everything anyone in life gets to experience. And that’s where my guilt comes in. Reading all these stories not just enforces that I made the right decision to break up with my exwBPD, but that looking into her future, she’ll need to find someone who is OK putting up with everything. I know many ill-willed men, and they get even more ill-willed with someone attractive. For her benefit, she’s very attractive and will have no problem finding someone.

But we have to think about what’s good for us. Not just what’s good for someone we love. Learning to set boundaries is an important takeaway I’ve gotten from all this.

This website has been so helpful to not feeling alone. Not feeling like the crazy one. Not feeling like you did something wrong to cause them to act a certain way. I miss her very much, and I hope she has the happiest life anyone could have, but I need to be selfish and realize that it’s not right for me.

[Lucky Jim]

I miss her very much, and I hope she has the happiest life anyone could have, but I need to be selfish and realize that it’s not right for me.

Hey Sherlock, I would argue that it's not selfish to do what is right for you; To the contrary, it's healthy and authentic!

LJ

[JNChell]

Hey there, Hopefulgirl. How’s it going?

JNChell- there's a lot to say about our relationship but I was in love with him and the person he is marrying is the one he basically abandoned me for. There's only been contact once in the past 6 months when I acknowledged I found out that he was engaged. Found out from Instagram of course. And he was very demure about it. Funny thing is he still sees an ex-girlfriend of his who I run into occasionally, she told me that they call each other and when he comes to town during the week he comes over to her house to catch up.

I know how hard it is to see someone we love so much move on so quickly. Please try not to take that personally. It really has nothing to do with you. It could very well be a pattern. My S4’s mother has a pattern when it comes to this. She goes about a month or so in between relationships. She can’t go much longer than that. She’s unable to take the time off and self reflect. I won’t bore you with the details, but from what she has told me and from what I’ve observed, this is her relationship pattern. It will always be the same. I have taken it personally for quite a while, but I’m starting to come out of that.

Give it some time. Time will allow you some emotional space to decompress. Try not to distract your healing with him and his doings. I can tell you from experience that it will only hold you back and keep the hurt at the forefront of your day to day life. Focus on you.

[Hopefulgirl]

So, last night I went to Christmas cocktail party and a family friend came over and started chatting with me. She's a sweet woman and I told her about my ex before, and she was very comforting and always had great advice. She told me that she had read about his engagement in the newspaper few weeks ago. Apparently my family knew about it but decided not to say anything and I completely understand. She said the engagement announcement took up about 1/8 of the page. Two columns of all of the things they've done, their travels and their life together. She said there was a picture of them with him over her shoulder kissing her on the cheek and she's standing there grinning. She said she's never seen any engagement announcement like that in the paper ever. She said it was just so overboard, the word she used was "narcissistic". From what I know of her, the announcement was all her doing.

If this had happened a year or more ago it would have felt like a punch in the gut. I might have even had to leave and go home. But I was at a lovely party with really lovely people and I've grown to the point where I don't want anything to do with him to destroy joyful times. It's tough around the holidays though, even at a great Christmas party there's a wave of loneliness that comes over you when you hear about somebody having a supposedly wonderful life with somebody you loved. You're always wondering how real is it with this other person?

I'm fighting the urge to go online and look up the engagement announcement. Just can't go there.

[JNChell]

Your family friend sounds like a wise person and that she is in your corner. Having good support means a lot. That being said, Hopefulgirl, don’t look. Ask yourself, “How will looking benefit me?”. I empathize with how much it hurts. I’ve done the “looking”. It only stalled me and kept me stuck in the pain.

Your friend mentioned narcissism. How often have you heard someone using terminology like that outside of this site? If an outsider said things like that to me, I’d be like “I’m gonna role you up and put you in my pocket. I’ll let you out when we arrive at an undisclosed location. We’re gonna talk.” J/K, but you get the point.

He’s not changed. He’s adjusted to his current situation. His behaviors and patterns will eventually show themselves just like they did with you. Just like they did before you.

Detaching is hard. We’re here for you and have been down the path that you’re currently on. Keep walking, there’s a nice camp up ahead.

[Red5]

So, last night I went to Christmas cocktail party and a family friend came over and started chatting with me. She's a sweet woman and I told her about my ex before, and she was very comforting and always had great advice. She told me that she had read about his engagement in the newspaper few weeks ago. Apparently my family knew about it but decided not to say anything and I completely understand. She said the engagement announcement took up about 1/8 of the page. Two columns of all of the things they've done, their travels and their life together. She said there was a picture of them with him over her shoulder kissing her on the cheek and she's standing there grinning. She said she's never seen any engagement announcement like that in the paper ever. She said it was just so overboard, the word she used was "narcissistic".

Funny thing is he still sees an ex-girlfriend of his who I run into occasionally, she told me that they call each other and when he comes to town during the week he comes over to her house to catch up.

Hey Hopefulgirl,

I’m sure you’ve heard the verses in the Bible about “houses built on the sand”... .sounds to me as this is just what is about to happen... .

You have dodged a bullet imho, .’they don’t ever change’.

Hang in there... .and kind regards !

Red5

[Hopefulgirl]

Thank you JNChell and Red5. 
Yes, my friend knows all about Narcissism. She was once married to a man with NPD and she learned lessons about cluster B personality disorders the hard way! She said to me once, "if you ever get the urge to contact him call me instead and I will remind you all the reasons you shouldn't".

Another friend said to me today "if you had told that woman all the bad things he was saying about her and he had lied to her about his relationships with other women then they would never gotten this far in their relationship". She didnt say it in a mean way. So I think I could have "exposed" him early in their relationship. But she wasnt about to give up. She bought a house for the two of them when they just started seeing each other again as friends, after he had broken up with her for 6 months to re-date his ex. I mean, the whole thing is just nuts !