I don't trust anyone

[Depression = 72% of members]

Hello, I started a thread over at the relationships board and after sharing some of my background it was suggested I post here.

I was going to wait to post after new years but this is something I feel I need to address sooner rather than later.

I get along with family "just fine", there is a past that I posted about over at the last thread (recap below) but things are "fine" overall right now.

However, I just noticed something today after having posted on the site.

first a recap of what's been going on with me and then the issue:

My grandma possibly/likely had BPD
Dad "got it from her"
Mom is impulsive though I don't think its BPD per se
Lots of "broken/distant" relationships due to different circumstances
History of detached romantic relationships, no real intimacy/fear of it (?)
Came to the boards after a recent-ish breakup with a pwBPD

Now the "current" issue:

We had a holidays family gathering, came about from a cousin of mine (I was close to her when we were kids but have since distanced, contact is kept positive if sparse) asking if we could meet because they'd be in town for just a few days, ended up being a whole family meet with extended family and people coming over from out of town. I knew about this, there were social media posts and everyone was invited.

Anyway, it was all good and positive until I got to the "event"

After saying my hello's I kinda stepped away from the activities, staying close enough to "be there", not really participating but also not "not participating" if that makes sense.

I tried a couple of times to engage the conversation but I simply could not relate to anything that was being said, I just nodded and smiled and would occasionally interject to agree with something being said but would slip right back to the background.

One of my uncles (dad's sister's husband) started a conversation with me which I could follow, and it was about a frustration he had: He could see his son, my cousin, "wasting away" his talents from lack of support at work and bureaucracy. What struck me as odd was that he felt compelled to tell me that he couldn't and wouldn't say this to his son, I tried to comfort him saying that organizing to sidestep existing channels (as in, his own organization instead of the current one) was a major project not everyone is willing/able to go through.

He has also asked me before about if his son coming out as homosexual was somehow his failure as a parent, I reassured him then that it wasn't about him but his son's choice. same thing, he felt he could not talk to anyone about this.

This is relevant because I felt not an inability to engage the topic, but a distrust of others close to him and what their reaction would be; He trusted me enough to tell me this, I have no idea why. He was feeling trapped and unable to confront the situation.

After that I had to help with something in the kitchen and that was that. We had our meal and sat down after, people started gathering at the table and talking.

I could hear everything being said and was paying attention, I laughed, I nodded, I made the same quick comments as before, but a few times I noticed I was staring blankly at the window because people around would start looking to see what I was so focused on:

the window led to the empty kitchen, I was staring at nothing.

Everywhere there were underhanded comments about relationships gone wrong: a husband "disappearing" on the wife (implying cheating/going to see "the other woman"), people implying that the other person hadn't figured out they were being unfaithful, some outright boasting of cheating now that they've separated, some comments about others implying sexual deviance from seemingly innocuous things like the beer they were drinking for example.

Even after they started talking about music and the food and other things I did not engage further. I had spaced out already.

"Funny" thing is, I noticed the same kind of talk when I went to a "family" gathering on my sister-in-law's side. Same thing different family.

My sister-in-law was also aware of it but she was more of the "yeah I know, that's why I don't like 'X' person, he's no good for 'Y'" type response after I mentioned the kind of comments being thrown around.

And again before with a group of "friends" with whom I had a business with, same exact situation.

Now that's either a "cultural" thing that's taken me almost 20 years to notice or there's something not quite right in that I see the same behaviors in every group I "belong to".

So back to my own family. After hearing these same underhanded "cheating" comments and some outright lies and exaggerations (which I know for a fact are not like they say they are, seen it with my own eyes) I noticed I simply didn't want to talk to them.

It was not that I couldn't focus the conversation, I simply did not want to engage in it.

When I was with them one on one they seemed to change and say it like it was, no "mellowing" the truth, but in the group they would simply throw the underhanded comments. I understand you have to moderate your words so as to not step on someone's toes, but this felt different, almost like a "I'm saying it but you're never going to notice it, even though everyone else does"

I could piece together exactly what they were saying: everyone is cheating, those involved have no clue about their own situation, but they know about everyone else's.

After realizing this I came to the conclusion that I don't trust any of them, and it seems my reluctance to engage with them in the first place was in fact due to this subconscious distrust.

I mentioned in my relationship post that I had one moment where everything was going as good as I could ever hoped for, and then I had a sudden and overwhelming feeling that my gf was lying to me. I couldn't find the lie, maybe there wasn't any, though I later found out she had been withholding information and she would lie to one of her coworkers, but I learned that after the "paranoid moment" as I called it.

My family has never known about my relationships in part because they have never been "intimate" enough that I would have her meet the family they never had any "ammo" to direct any of those comments towards me, they would ask me about work and be completely bored within minutes, steering the conversation towards the aforementioned "inappropriateness".

I've commented in my previous thread over at the relationship board that my dad also confessed an infidelity. my brother (not the married one) was cheated on over ten years ago and hasn't been able to quite move on. aunts, uncles, cousins, all known to have cheated or have had multiple "toxic" relationships, one almost got convicted of inappropriate sexual behavior.

I'm a bit overwhelmed right now from all this, I thought it was going to be a simple get together. I was not quite there mentally for the duration of the event and I'm left feeling disconnected from everyone I thought I knew.

I think I've noticed this before but I would attribute it to my own "shyness" growing up.

After posting about my past when asking for advice about my relationship it became evident that my family dynamics did affect me, and now with that context upfront in my mind I saw this experience in a different light.

I am not really close with anyone in my family, there is no real conflict with anyone right now, the issues I had with my dad have mostly resolved (his anger was a major issue, I learned how to defuse that), I am about to move out to a different place but will probably stay in touch just as infrequently as I've always had.

I'm not sure I have a question to ask here other than how to process something like this?

I don't want to "dissociate" every time I meet them, its not so much distressing as it is annoying: I feel like I have nothing to do there and everyone is understandably "concerned" as to why I'm blankly staring at an empty room while still responding every once in a while.

My cousin (the one I was close with in the past) even mentioned her daughter (7) has commented on how she expects to be a single mom in the future; It was odd she said, that her being that young would be concerned about her relationship status that far in the future. Apparently her own extended family has the same "absent/broken relationships" problems I've been seeing, enough for her daughter to pick up on them and blurt it out (kids have no filter anyway so its a real concern for her it seems).

I don't know if I should simply not go to family events and I also don't know if I should or even could keep a relationship with them; I simply don't trust them. I don't want to be isolated either, I know that's not a good or even practical way to live.

comments/advice much appreciated, I just needed to let this one out.

[itsmeSnap]

Hello, I started a thread over at the relationships board and after sharing some of my background it was suggested I post here.

I was going to wait to post after new years but this is something I feel I need to address sooner rather than later.

I get along with family "just fine", there is a past that I posted about over at the last thread (recap below) but things are "fine" overall right now.

However, I just noticed something today after having posted on the site.

first a recap of what's been going on with me and then the issue:

My grandma possibly/likely had BPD
Dad "got it from her"
Mom is impulsive though I don't think its BPD per se
Lots of "broken/distant" relationships due to different circumstances
History of detached romantic relationships, no real intimacy/fear of it (?)
Came to the boards after a recent-ish breakup with a pwBPD

Now the "current" issue:

We had a holidays family gathering, came about from a cousin of mine (I was close to her when we were kids but have since distanced, contact is kept positive if sparse) asking if we could meet because they'd be in town for just a few days, ended up being a whole family meet with extended family and people coming over from out of town. I knew about this, there were social media posts and everyone was invited.

Anyway, it was all good and positive until I got to the "event"

After saying my hello's I kinda stepped away from the activities, staying close enough to "be there", not really participating but also not "not participating" if that makes sense.

I tried a couple of times to engage the conversation but I simply could not relate to anything that was being said, I just nodded and smiled and would occasionally interject to agree with something being said but would slip right back to the background.

One of my uncles (dad's sister's husband) started a conversation with me which I could follow, and it was about a frustration he had: He could see his son, my cousin, "wasting away" his talents from lack of support at work and bureaucracy. What struck me as odd was that he felt compelled to tell me that he couldn't and wouldn't say this to his son, I tried to comfort him saying that organizing to sidestep existing channels (as in, his own organization instead of the current one) was a major project not everyone is willing/able to go through.

He has also asked me before about if his son coming out as homosexual was somehow his failure as a parent, I reassured him then that it wasn't about him but his son's choice. same thing, he felt he could not talk to anyone about this.

This is relevant because I felt not an inability to engage the topic, but a distrust of others close to him and what their reaction would be; He trusted me enough to tell me this, I have no idea why. He was feeling trapped and unable to confront the situation.

After that I had to help with something in the kitchen and that was that. We had our meal and sat down after, people started gathering at the table and talking.

I could hear everything being said and was paying attention, I laughed, I nodded, I made the same quick comments as before, but a few times I noticed I was staring blankly at the window because people around would start looking to see what I was so focused on:

the window led to the empty kitchen, I was staring at nothing.

Everywhere there were underhanded comments about relationships gone wrong: a husband "disappearing" on the wife (implying cheating/going to see "the other woman"), people implying that the other person hadn't figured out they were being unfaithful, some outright boasting of cheating now that they've separated, some comments about others implying sexual deviance from seemingly innocuous things like the beer they were drinking for example.

Even after they started talking about music and the food and other things I did not engage further. I had spaced out already.

"Funny" thing is, I noticed the same kind of talk when I went to a "family" gathering on my sister-in-law's side. Same thing different family.

My sister-in-law was also aware of it but she was more of the "yeah I know, that's why I don't like 'X' person, he's no good for 'Y'" type response after I mentioned the kind of comments being thrown around.

And again before with a group of "friends" with whom I had a business with, same exact situation.

Now that's either a "cultural" thing that's taken me almost 20 years to notice or there's something not quite right in that I see the same behaviors in every group I "belong to".

So back to my own family. After hearing these same underhanded "cheating" comments and some outright lies and exaggerations (which I know for a fact are not like they say they are, seen it with my own eyes) I noticed I simply didn't want to talk to them.

It was not that I couldn't focus the conversation, I simply did not want to engage in it.

When I was with them one on one they seemed to change and say it like it was, no "mellowing" the truth, but in the group they would simply throw the underhanded comments. I understand you have to moderate your words so as to not step on someone's toes, but this felt different, almost like a "I'm saying it but you're never going to notice it, even though everyone else does"

I could piece together exactly what they were saying: everyone is cheating, those involved have no clue about their own situation, but they know about everyone else's.

After realizing this I came to the conclusion that I don't trust any of them, and it seems my reluctance to engage with them in the first place was in fact due to this subconscious distrust.

I mentioned in my relationship post that I had one moment where everything was going as good as I could ever hoped for, and then I had a sudden and overwhelming feeling that my gf was lying to me. I couldn't find the lie, maybe there wasn't any, though I later found out she had been withholding information and she would lie to one of her coworkers, but I learned that after the "paranoid moment" as I called it.

My family has never known about my relationships in part because they have never been "intimate" enough that I would have her meet the family they never had any "ammo" to direct any of those comments towards me, they would ask me about work and be completely bored within minutes, steering the conversation towards the aforementioned "inappropriateness".

I've commented in my previous thread over at the relationship board that my dad also confessed an infidelity. my brother (not the married one) was cheated on over ten years ago and hasn't been able to quite move on. aunts, uncles, cousins, all known to have cheated or have had multiple "toxic" relationships, one almost got convicted of inappropriate sexual behavior.

I'm a bit overwhelmed right now from all this, I thought it was going to be a simple get together. I was not quite there mentally for the duration of the event and I'm left feeling disconnected from everyone I thought I knew.

I think I've noticed this before but I would attribute it to my own "shyness" growing up.

After posting about my past when asking for advice about my relationship it became evident that my family dynamics did affect me, and now with that context upfront in my mind I saw this experience in a different light.

I am not really close with anyone in my family, there is no real conflict with anyone right now, the issues I had with my dad have mostly resolved (his anger was a major issue, I learned how to defuse that), I am about to move out to a different place but will probably stay in touch just as infrequently as I've always had.

I'm not sure I have a question to ask here other than how to process something like this?

I don't want to "dissociate" every time I meet them, its not so much distressing as it is annoying: I feel like I have nothing to do there and everyone is understandably "concerned" as to why I'm blankly staring at an empty room while still responding every once in a while.

My cousin (the one I was close with in the past) even mentioned her daughter (7) has commented on how she expects to be a single mom in the future; It was odd she said, that her being that young would be concerned about her relationship status that far in the future. Apparently her own extended family has the same "absent/broken relationships" problems I've been seeing, enough for her daughter to pick up on them and blurt it out (kids have no filter anyway so its a real concern for her it seems).

I don't know if I should simply not go to family events and I also don't know if I should or even could keep a relationship with them; I simply don't trust them. I don't want to be isolated either, I know that's not a good or even practical way to live.

comments/advice much appreciated, I just needed to let this one out.

[DharmaGate]

 Hey no advice here but just wanted to let you know I read and the experience the same thing with my family no trust in the group.  and for good reason. I practice mindfulness to avoid dissociating because I don’t want to space out too long and then it seems to take on a mind of its own. I meant games out of seeing how much I can notice end it seems like you were super mindful and observant anyway peace!

[JNChell]

Hey, itsmeSnap. Welcome to PSI. This is where we really dig our heals in on this stuff.

My grandma on my mom’s side was a very cold person. Grandpa was amazing. My mother was terrifying to her target behind closed doors. Your story is a bit hard to follow in terms of what you’d like to see happen. Can we ground this a bit and tackle it one issue at a time?

[itsmeSnap]

Hey Dharmagate

It's not the best experience to have a "good reason" not to trust them, I realize that now. Hope things get better with you too.

I tried being mindful but I slipped in and out of observer/participant mode, at least I could keep track of things right?

To JNChell

Like I mentioned in the post I don't have much of a clue what I want from this myself. When I came to the boards because of my troubled relationship there was a goal in sight: "handle the crisis, be ready for next time, make things better"

Here I'm not so sure there's a crisis, I can be ready for next time but I have no idea what better even means for me in this situation. I have no "current" problems that I can see, though I realize the lack of trust is a symptom of an underlying cause probably.

I guess the dissociation is the first thing that comes to mind. In my relationship post I also started focusing on symptoms and they helped reveal a whole lot of "baggage" I didn't know I had but I managed to articulate as it related to them, so maybe that?

I tried to focus but it seems I could only hear what was going on and not see it or interact too much. It was only when I noticed people turn towards the window and into my field of view that I realized I was staring at nothing

I realize this is very little to go on

[Harri]

Hi ItsmeSnap and welcome to PSI! 

I don't know if what you describe is dissociation but it sounds familiar to me (as a person who does dissociate).  One thing I do know is that dissociation occurs when there is anxiety which I found quite surprising.  I never knew how anxious I was until I stopped dissociating as much!  Staying calm and a bit detached was normal for me especially in tough situations.  anyway, I just wanted to mention that as anxiety can be a tricky thing to deal with.

We talk a lot about the past and how our family influenced us but we tend to focus more on how to heal and change the behaviors we either learned or developed as a way to cope. 

It is not uncommon to see patterns of behaviors in groups as you describe.  Especially with family but also with friends.  We tend to go with what we know, even when we do not like it.  Certain behaviors are familiar and fit with how we see our role or even what we don't like about our role.  Again, we can be comfortable in discomfort.

I'm not sure I have a question to ask here other than how to process something like this?

I'm not sure I have an answer for you  other than to say to try to just take in what is.  Dissociation is a way of avoiding or protecting us from our feelings. 

Practicing Mindfulness meditation can help with that but we also need to feel safe enough to feel the feelings so we can be mindful.  I think that is where acceptance comes in.  So maybe focus on the fact that things don't make a whole lot of sense right now but in time they will and that feelings are okay to have.  You are safe and an adult and you can handle whatever it is you may feel. 

I have no idea if that applies to you  I just don't know enough of your situation and I am not a professional so I am guessing here. 

I do think that awareness and then knowing that you are capable enough to cope with whatever may come up is an important step in getting to a place where you will dissociate less and less.

Building a support network of people who get it and will validate and accept you is also important.  We can do that here.

I don't know if I should simply not go to family events and I also don't know if I should or even could keep a relationship with them; I simply don't trust them. I don't want to be isolated either, I know that's not a good or even practical way to live.

This is not something you need to decide now.  Some of us here go no contact because our families are so toxic and damaging but others are able to have limited contact or even full contact but with strong boundaries.    A lot of the work we do here on this board is to get to the point where we can be who we are without family changing our perspective of us. 

EDITED TO ADD:
I was writing while you posted your latest!

I tried being mindful but I slipped in and out of observer/participant mode, at least I could keep track of things right?

Yes!  It is not going to be an all or nothing sort of 'recovery', so this is good.

BTW, many of us come here not quite sure what is going on but there is something there... .we all find a way to discover things though.  Just take it slow.

[itsmeSnap]

Hi Harri

I don't know if what you describe is dissociation

It was mentioned in my post back at relationships somewhere so I guess the word just stuck with me, maybe its just detachment?

but we tend to focus more on how to heal and change the behaviors we either learned or developed as a way to cope. 

I know I have to be the change, with the relationship I knew where I wanted to take things because there was an expectation of interaction and possibly compromise, but with extended family, and particularly gatherings like these it seems like there is too much going on at once.

'm not sure I have an answer for you  other than to say to try to just take in what is.  Dissociation is a way of avoiding or protecting us from our feelings. 

Practicing Mindfulness meditation can help with that but we also need to feel safe enough to feel the feelings so we can be mindful.  I think that is where acceptance comes in.  So maybe focus on the fact that things don't make a whole lot of sense right now but in time they will and that feelings are okay to have

I'm guessing my own expectations were a bit skewed, at home and with immediate family things have been progressing quite nicely from me taking charge of my own role in the situation, I guess I expected it to translate verbatim to extended family and neglected to come to terms with the fact that I haven't had that time to work things out with them as I had with my dad for example.

I have no idea if that applies to you. I just don't know enough of your situation and I am not a professional so I am guessing here. 

Posting here and hearing your opinions I guess is part of my mindfulness, I need an outside perspective. Thanks for listening!

I do think that awareness and then knowing that you are capable enough to cope with whatever may come up is an important step in getting to a place where you will dissociate less and less.

I guess I'll take that as a first step. I can cope but I fear I'm not doing it "healthily".

Some of us here go no contact because our families are so toxic and damaging but others are able to have limited contact or even full contact but with strong boundaries.    A lot of the work we do here on this board is to get to the point where we can be who we are without family changing our perspective of us. 

I'm leaning towards minimum contact as I have up to now, but I fear that's just me kicking the can down the road.

In particular with my standing up to my own values and how it relates to my story about them talking about broken relationships like that, how can I handle that? they know its not "correct" what they are doing but they seem to either not care or care only that they were caught/called out on it and not doing it in of itself (neither the acts nor the talking about it). I don't feel like "nagging" them about it especially since I see them so infrequently and I know they won't change because I tell them to.

It just occurred to me that I could have deflected and distracted (I have been occasionally reading about CBT/DBT skills) and take charge of the conversation so they either engage with me on my terms or they'll move to a different group/conversation on their own. This could leave me stranded/isolated from "pushing them away" talking about things they don't find engaging, like my work (which I'm very proud of to be honest); or maybe we'll find common ground besides talking about failed relationships. I guess I'll have to take my chances.

What do you think?

It is not going to be an all or nothing sort of 'recovery', so this is good.

One thing that's been in the back of my mind throughout my posting here is something like this:

I have no agency over them, I can only accept what they are and look at them and engage with them "as they are" or maybe encourage them to behave a certain way without "telling them".

I keep picturing sort of like a cabin in the woods surrounded by all the cute and not so cute woodlands creatures. I'll put up a fence to keep the deer out of my garden, plant some flowers to bring the bees and get some honey, keep the food scraps away from where the bears can reach them and look out my porch and see the butterflies and bunnies, maybe put out a bird fountain and feeder and watch them have a good time and keep them coming back, maybe go out every once in a while to gather mushrooms and take a holiday by the lake to spend some time without so many precautions and just soak the world around me.

It sounds like a good life right? but there's not a single person in sight in that story.

That's what I mean by being isolated, if every one of those creatures in the story represents my interactions with toxic and not so toxic people in my life I still feel like I don't know how to not see them as "little automatons inside a person's body".

I know critters are what they are, but I also know I cannot have a meaningful relationship with them beyond what they are; but these are people we're talking about, I still fear I don't know how to integrate them as "a person in my life" and see them as people and not me standing in some "garden of eden" without even an "eve" by my side.

I went full allegorical here so hopefully you can follow haha thanks for listening!

[Harri]

Hi itsme! 

I guess I expected it to translate verbatim to extended family and neglected to come to terms with the fact that I haven't had that time to work things out with them as I had with my dad for example.

Sometimes what we learn with one person can transfer to other situations but not always as you discovered.  For me it depends on whether I have processed something on an emotional level to the point where I can reach a place of calm.  If I have not, or have only processed something on an intellectual level, all bets are off when it comes to the transfer or awareness and being able to cope.  Does that see to fit for you?

What do you mean when you say you can cope but you don't think you are doing so in a healthy way?

I'm leaning towards minimum contact as I have up to now, but I fear that's just me kicking the can down the road.

It can be kicking the can down the road but so can no contact or even full contact. 

In particular with my standing up to my own values and how it relates to my story about them talking about broken relationships like that, how can I handle that?

Well, I agree you don't want to nag them.  The thing is, getting them to change 1) is probably not going to work 2) will only cause resentment and conflict 3) will not help you deal with your feelings and or dissociation when it happens.  I am not saying to sit and listen to gossip or encourage unfaithful behavior or appear to condone it.  There are other ways of handling it.

You are onto the solution with deflecting and distraction and leading the conversation to other things.  I think taking your chances is a great idea.  Why sit around listening to something you find offensive and that bothers you? If they do abandon a conversation with you is it really the worst thing?  I think if you were in frequent contact with them you might want to take a firmer approach but for the sort of contact you describe, I think you have come up with a great solution.

I have no agency over them, I can only accept what they are and look at them and engage with them "as they are" or maybe encourage them to behave a certain way without "telling them".

Yes!  Well said and I followed your thinking on this.  Yes can't fix them or control them nor should you try.  You can lead them in a way that is more acceptable to you in an effort to find common ground and you can lead by example. 

I know critters are what they are, but I also know I cannot have a meaningful relationship with them beyond what they are; but these are people we're talking about, I still fear I don't know how to integrate them as "a person in my life" and see them as people and not me standing in some "garden of eden" without even an "eve" by my side.

As we change and heal it is not uncommon that we no longer hang around the same kind of people or attract the same kinds of people.  In this case you are talking about family and it may have something to do with generational dysfunction.  We see that a lot here too.  But your friends, your "eve" will change as you do the deep work on emotional baggage and wounds.

You can still keep your relatives in your life, but maybe your expectations about your relationship with them will change as you change.  I'm not saying you are flawed or anything though.  It is just that as we grow our preferences and what attracts us to people change.

BTW, we always listen here!

[JNChell]

Hi again, itsmeSnap. Your luck just cashed in. You’ve been met by a very wise beagle. Follow her advice.

It sounds like you’re always ready for the next meltdown. Like you’re always at the ready. Is that accurate?

[itsmeSnap]

Your luck just cashed in. You’ve been met by a very wise beagle. Follow her advice.

I seem to be getting a lot "luckier" the more I post on these boards, coincidence? 

It sounds like you’re always ready for the next meltdown. Like you’re always at the ready. Is that accurate?

I guess I WANT to be ready for the next meltdown. Before it has taken me by surprise (sort of like this situation here) and I would either internalize/rationalize it (I was shy growing up, I didn't want to enrage my dad, it was out of my control, etc) or just not do anything about it and forget it until next time came around (kick the can down the road).

Being romantic with a person with BPD helped me in the sense that I wanted to make the change "for her", doing it for someone else I guess kinda "unstuck me" in the sense that the relationship I felt was worth it enough to keep at it; now I feel I had neglected my own needs before, after getting good advice here I am starting to realize even my own well being should be good enough for me to keep working on it, and not just for the sake of others.

So yes it seems accurate, now I'm probably a bit hyper vigilant instead of just mindful, I guess it takes practice to get it right.

What do you mean when you say you can cope but you don't think you are doing so in a healthy way?

Living with my family for so long and getting to where I am now with regards to financials, academics and entrepreneurship (to clarify, its a good place) but without any close relationship makes me feel like I can deal with it, but I don't know if I could have done something else, something more, to make things work (reading it as I write it, I see my own "codependency" showing itself).

Maybe this is the "healthy way"? I've read "normal" feels weird when you've been down the rabbit hole, I guess there's some truth to that.

You are onto the solution with deflecting and distraction and leading the conversation to other things.  I think taking your chances is a great idea.  Why sit around listening to something you find offensive and that bothers you? If they do abandon a conversation with you is it really the worst thing?  I think if you were in frequent contact with them you might want to take a firmer approach but for the sort of contact you describe, I think you have come up with a great solution.

Thanks for that. Interestingly enough I am quite firm when dealing with strangers and people in the business, but for some reason I doubt myself around family. It may have something to do with the fact that I will probably keep seeing them all my life; I can stand to lose a client and their money, a family breakdown is a bit harder to take the risk of I guess, there's always the "next time".

You can still keep your relatives in your life, but maybe your expectations about your relationship with them will change as you change.  I'm not saying you are flawed or anything though.  It is just that as we grow our preferences and what attracts us to people change.

It's been a common theme the more I read stories on the board: expectations can break our well being more so than the actual abuse; people recover from abuse, I've read "success stories", but only after they've let go of those expectations.

Hi itsme!

you can call me Snap (as in 'taking a picture' not the 'cracking under stress'  ), I have a feeling I will keep coming back to the boards for quite some time.

[JNChell]

Hey, Snap. I think I feel you on this. I can relate to being shy as a child and walking on eggshells around my parents. What I’m beginning to realize and accept is that walking on eggshells really didn’t make a difference then. I was there at their disposal. I was trapped as a child. They could find me when they needed to.

After several dysfunctional relationships, I’ve come to grips with the fact that it’s better for me to trust my intuition and simply distance myself from certain people. It’s taken me a long time to understand this about myself.

What you said about being shy and now hyper vigilant really stuck out to me. Wise Mind is in fact where we want to place ourselves. It’s not easy to do upon realizing this, and you’re right about that it does take practice. I’m practicing Wise Mind everyday and recognize it when I see it becoming more and more of a habit, as well as when I should’ve brought it into a situation and failed to do so. What helps you to be mindful at this stage? Good post, BTW.

[itsmeSnap]

What helps you to be mindful at this stage?

I guess its keeping things in context. Let me see if I can explain it:

So I started reading about BPD from an on/off relationship I've been having with my gfwBPD, after a "falling out" I've been posting here about my relationship and people asked about my past/background. From writing that I started seeing my own behaviors in this new light: it wasn't just about my gf doing "BPD things", I also was contributing to the falling out and hadn't noticed.

Then from writing about my relationship history there also I noticed more things. I tried helping others and I kept seeing how I do things that I didn't even knew I did, both good and bad.

When I went to my family meet thing I explicitly had a "whatever happens" mentality. I was encouraged to post about family issues before it happened but I wanted to postpone it till after the holidays. Since I "pushed aside" any previous context I've gathered so far and decided to "be in the moment" I guess I just dropped any tools I had (mindfulness, boundaries, asserting myself) and the result surprised the heck out of me; being in the moment turned into spacing out and staring into an empty room.

Now after coming back here I posted some of my experience in dealing with people outside my family (business thing, in another thread) and lo and behold, I had consistently applied the tools and managed to end a long standing conflict my dad used to have with clients after he passed it on to me.

Writing that, even though this was a business setting, with that "context" in mind I could see the parallels with any other relationship dynamic: I had to set terms we could all agree on, establish consequences (same as boundaries), and stick to them.

Even the most "conflicting" tenants we had we could work it out, either an exit strategy or a plan for moving forward.

This is what I meant when I said I apparently doubt myself with family: how did I manage to stabilize a long standing conflict/situation at work and still get so "messed up" around family/relationships? I apparently had/have the tools, using it where appropriate seems to be a whole different ballgame.

What you said about being shy and now hyper vigilant really stuck out to me

I guess we overcompensate, when you get a hammer everything starts looking like a nail right? but we forget we also have screws, glue, pegs, latches, clamps or whatever in our garage, and it takes effort to go and get them, even if they'd do a much better or more permanent solution to the problem at hand (I watch a lot of woodworking videos even though I don't do it myself  )

I want a relationship for the sake of it, spending my life with someone I love (future wife and kids) is as good as I hope to get, but I'm also painfully aware now of the bigger picture: I'm not getting any younger (I'm 28, still too young for it to be a midlife crisis  ), and this has prevented me from living to my fullest and from giving my fullest to the family I know I can have but I just been doubting myself out of.

I guess this is also part of the reason I wanted to "fix" the one relationship I felt was worth it, it was the wake up call. This was my moment to shine, and I felt compelled to shine no matter what. I thought that meant working on her issues, apparently I didn't/don't shine bright enough myself, my "eyes" are now so used to the "low light" that even though I try to focus on the big picture I seem to be "squinting" hard enough to notice every single tiny little thing.

I know I'm not where I want to be yet, I'm working on it.

I am still wary of not being able to do it, without experience on what a "good relationship" looks or even feels like I have not much to go on other than keep stumbling in the dark. I don't expect to find a shining angel that will lead me to her with her soft and caring glow, that's a possibility, or maybe I'll be my gf's knight in shining armor and I get to be the one to show her the light haha.

Its only been two months since I started reading and posting, I still have a long way to go.

As for extended family, I guess I just don't feel like I belong with them. They have their ways, I don't share their values, they have little interest in mine. I don't "hate them" or anything, its just not a comfortable bunch for me to spend time nurturing a relationship with. I guess I was also stuck thinking I had to make it work. I don't, and that should be ok.

I turned your simple question into a dissertation on the meaning of life haha guess I'm contemplative from the holidays; too much free time, the mind wanders into strange territory 

I guess that's still in the future, practice makes perfect so I'll keep at it, fails included. Now I know a bit more than last time, I'll (hopefully!) get it eventually 

[JNChell]

It sounds like you have a lot of emotion coming out of you at the moment. I’ve been there. Which feelings are the most acute currently. Can we focus on those and work our way down from there?

[Harri]

This is what I meant when I said I apparently doubt myself with family: how did I manage to stabilize a long standing conflict/situation at work and still get so "messed up" around family/relationships? I apparently had/have the tools, using it where appropriate seems to be a whole different ballgame.

Family and close relationships is a whole different game really.  I too can function very well for the most part in a more structured setting like school and work.  There is less intimacy there and less at risk for me.  I am not sure what it is for you.  Might be the same or might not be.  The good news is that now you are aware and can work on transferring those skills.  The emotional element will be there though and that is what will be a challenge to work through (but still doable).

I am still wary of not being able to do it, without experience on what a "good relationship" looks or even feels like I have not much to go on other than keep stumbling in the dark.

So many of us on PSI have said similar.  The thing is, we do not have to stumble around in the dark.  As we work on us and look at our part in various relationships, things can and do get better.  This board, the other boards, they all help.  Posting has helped me in ways that my therapy with my trauma psychologist does not do.  Volunteering has helped me push myself even more.  You are not alone and we can help you find the light (now that is either a relief to hear or it sounds really creepy!   Regardless, it is meant to be a positive as if you listen closely there is light uplifting music playing in the background!)

I guess that's still in the future, practice makes perfect so I'll keep at it, fails included. Now I know a bit more than last time, I'll (hopefully!) get it eventually

Hold on to this attitude.  It will serve you very well.

If it helps to know, you are figuring this stuff out pretty early.  For example, I am 53 and still don't know what a healthy relationship looks like.  I am getting there though. 
Peace to you Snap.

[itsmeSnap]

It sounds like you have a lot of emotion coming out of you at the moment

I don't know how to describe it, I don't feel "emotional" though I'm noticing a lot of things I hadn't before.

Its also that nagging feeling that I'm still missing something. Its been more forward since I started noticing my own behavior: if I hadn't noticed that before, what else am I missing, what else am I not seeing?

Its particularly frustrating when I cannot find the solution to a problem, or when others say there's not really a solution. I still feel there's a "breakthrough" to be had to make it all good.

In science there was a "hidden variables theory" for quantum mechanics (I know right, way off topic, stick with me for a second here, it's relevant I promise), that weird world where particles behave like waves and can even go through walls and "interfere with themselves".

It was utterly disproved, the "chance"/probabilistic nature of that quantum world stands up to the most rigorous tests: there simply are NO HIDDEN VARIABLES.

I feel like I'm chasing the hidden variables here but its all just chance, "no solution" is the solution, all attempts are just as valid, none of them better than the next, and none of them solve the problem.

But here's the insidious part: how do we tell apart the actual "no solution is the solution" from the "you just haven't noticed it yet"?

BPD was thought to be "incurable, untreatable", then DBT came about and people found relief. I want that but for my own relationships.

I know that's general enough to cover most cases, and I'm sure mine is not "the one boundary case where the protocol breaks down".

But then again I see the advice I give and the advice I hear others giving: You have power, you can stick to your values, including no contact, cutting out toxic people from your life.

And then I see that my gf does exactly that, except from a twisted reality: I don't think I'm toxic, but she does, and she would have gotten the same advice even from me, on how to handle her situation if she were to share it here.

This is more distressing to me also particularly due to my noticing things. What if I'm the one with the twisted reality? What if I was the one that drove her away from my detachment due to family and trust issues?

I kinda want a reality check like the spinning top from the movie inception haha

Its a weird thing, the more I learn the more I realize I know very little, and yet the problems I want answers to remain unsolved to everyone experiencing them, not just me.

I don't know if that makes any sense, just writing it as it passes through my mind.

Harri said: I [... .] still don't know what a healthy relationship looks like

Part of my point, I don't think anyone does, and yet there are successful relationships all around. Everyone complains of their own situation and wants to make it better, even if others would look up to them and crave what we already have.

There's even been movies and shows and everything in between about trading lives, its not an isolated thing, we all do this.

Also in science there's a thing called pareto optimality: all optimal solutions are as good as any other, all non optimal are objectively worse than them.

I guess we are chasing the next solution, even when ours is just as valid.

But then again, how do we tell we're not in fact below the mark, still in unoptimal, "unhealthy" territory?

We seek that same power that our loved ones with BPD have over us, and yet we'd be doing (are already doing?) the same damage to them as they have done to us.

I know I've thought "if she wouldn't cut me off we could work this out", but what if she tried and I didn't listen? What if I dismissed her without realizing? What if I knew and still did it anyway and forgot/dismissed/minimized it?

Its scary not knowing what you don't know. Like the story of the kid asking his dad " what is keeping the ball stuck to the ground? " "that's gravity son" dad would answer, "and what's gravity dad?" "The thing keeping the ball stuck to the ground, we really don't know for sure"

I've mentioned I had anxiety attacks and this sort of thinking triggered them in the past. It doesn't anymore, but its still giving me a hard time it seems.

I lost the point I was trying to make. Feel free to comment anyway haha

[JNChell]

Hi, Snap. Merry Christmas. I can see your confusion and yearning for answers. Closure. I understand how you’re feeling. I’ve taken a couple of steps backwards this holiday season. I’ve been pretty down. I’m looking forward to getting my Son at noon, bringing him home and having our little Christmas. Then we’re off to my best friend’s place for the night. He and his family are family to me. They’re all wonderful people. What are your plans today?

Snap, I get how intense all of what you’re going through can feel. I truly do. Please try to be easy on yourself. Rest assured that these acute feelings will begin to ease. Relief isn’t far away. Time will help to ease the pain and confusion. Work and reflecting will help you to heal. There is no formula to this. I think that you would do yourself a well deserved service to stop trying to view it through a scope. A very wise member here often talks about viewing difficult situations like your’s from an altitude. Looking at the whole situation. Let’s say you’re at an altitude of 5,000 feet. Looking at things from that height, what do you see? Put the scope away and open up your space. Give yourself some room.

It’s a wise observation to notice your own behavior. You’re reflecting and that’s important to do. Self reflection has been my biggest breakthrough in all of this. That’s where the real work is done. The reason for that is because that’s where our real control lives. Ourselves. If you sit and think about that, it makes sense. We only have control over ourselves. Trying to control anything beyond ourselves can really upset our lives and find us on paths that don’t serve us well. It can make us sick if we let it.

Sometimes forcing ourselves to find a solution isn’t really the way. Sometimes, letting go is the solution. I’m in no way minimizing anything here. Much of the time, letting go is the hardest option. The thing is, holding on to things that cause us pain simply cause us pain. It’s understood that we can’t control what is causing us pain. We can only control ourselves. We can separate ourselves from what is causing us pain. Separation isn’t easy. The word itself has a hurtful ring to it, but it’s a little easier to view it from 5,000 feet. It won’t be long until you’re at 10,000 feet. The sky is the limit, Snap.

I like how you describe particles interfering with themselves. In a way, I see an analogy in this. I’m not intelligent like you  when it comes to science, but I can identify how I’ve interfered with myself throughout the years. I’ve stood in my own way more than anyone I’ve ever had in my life. I’m currently learning why. I’m still hard on myself, but I’m learning how to be gentler with myself. When I allow it, it feels pretty good. Be easy on yourself, my friend. Tell yourself that everything will be ok. Trust it.

I agree with you. There are no hidden variables. Maybe it’s discovery. Realizing things, at times, that are right in front of our noses. The “Aha” moments.

You’ve got this, Snap. Be easy on yourself and always be mindful to look at the hard stuff from a distance when needed. Mindfully remove yourself and look at it. Tell yourself what you see.

[itsmeSnap]

Merry christmas JNChell

I’m looking forward to getting my Son at noon, bringing him home and having our little Christmas

Sounds great 

What are your plans today?

I've been awake all night, its sort of a tradition to wait for sunrise on christmas day, so I'll probably sleep in most of today. I might do it again on new years 

It’s a wise observation to notice your own behavior. You’re reflecting and that’s important to do

Its been a double edge of sorts for me. I know it helps me make things better, it seems I am just focusing too much. I'll take your advice and step back for a moment.

Sometimes forcing ourselves to find a solution isn’t really the way. Sometimes, letting go is the solution

I posted on someone's thread this exact advice. Funny how when it comes to myself I don't follow my own intuition: it was so clear to me when telling someone else, and yet here I go stubbornly overthinking for a solution.

I'll keep a mental note of it and move on for now.

I can identify how I’ve interfered with myself throughout the years. I’ve stood in my own way more than anyone I’ve ever had in my life

Nobody else spends as much time with us as ourselves, even if anyone else tried as hard to mess things up for us as we do for ourselves, they wouldn't be able to keep up, they'd have to brush their teeth at some point, our own mind can keep at it even then  .

Be easy on yourself and always be mindful to look at the hard stuff from a distance when needed

Right back at you

Will do.

[JNChell]

I’ve pretty much been up all night as well. Too much traffic in my head this time of year. You know, I’m really good at not taking my own advice as well. Maybe just having the thought and sharing it is a step in the right direction. I don’t know. I’m not a worldly scholar, just a small town boy.

Get your sleep today, but you gotta get your groove on for New Years! I’m hoping to get a kiss this New Years. That may sound petty and juvenile, but I want to kiss a woman on New Years. It’s been over a year since I’ve done that. It’s something that I miss.

What exactly have you been focused on? If you’re comfortable in sharing, we’d like to hear what you have to say. Focusing on certain things can get us stuck in certain aspects of our lives. I’m not preaching. Just giving testimony.

Nobody else spends as much time with us as ourselves, even if anyone else tried as hard to mess things up for us as we do for ourselves, they wouldn't be able to keep up, they'd have to brush their teeth at some point, our own mind can keep at it even then  Laugh out loud (click to insert in post).

Thanks for this. I like this advice. It makes sense. You’re right. We spend more time with ourselves than anyone else. Even in our minds while sitting next to someone. Even at 5,000 feet we’re with ourselves.

Do you feel like talking about your thread title more? Why don’t you trust anyone? I get it. That’s why I’m interested. My trust is earned these days. It’s a new outlook for me.

[itsmeSnap]

Do you feel like talking about your thread title more? Why don’t you trust anyone?

That's kind of the point why I made the thread in the first place, I really don't know, but its affecting me.

My trust is earned these days

In theory I know this should be so. Looking back it seems I have a broken "trust" compass: I've trusted the wrong people.

Most recent experiences where it has been utterly shattered was with a "friend" and business partner of mine. I posted about this over at the relationships thread but heres the condensed version:

I started a new job after I flunked a semester back in college, the class wouldn't be available until next year so I had to do something with my time.

It was just a simple job, related to my field but it was entry level. I met a few people there, one of them a girl I started to like.

Anyway, the person who would eventually become my business partner invited us over for a get together with videogames at his house. We all went, it was awkward because I still didn't knew them very well, but it was ok.

So we started hanging out, the group got smaller and it ended up being just three guys and the girl I liked.

I had money to spare, I had no real expenses so my paycheck was basically disposable income, the guy had an idea for a business and I suggested we go through with it, basically dared him to do it.

So we got to work, it was coming along nice, we were friends (all of us), hung out after work, it was basically a party everyday.

And then I learned that the two of them (business partner and girl I liked) had a history, had broken up years back because he got his actual girlfriend pregnant (he then went ahead and married her).

It was a shock because it was him who was encouraging me to chase her. So I confronted him about it, he said it was nothing and it wasnt like that and all that.

Now that the lid was off we went out drinking and he confessed he did have an affair with her, and they had been having sex at the business. I had nothing to do right then, she wasn't dating me so I had no right to anything, but I felt betrayed anyway.

One night she needed a ride home, and I offered to take her. We talked on the way and I realized she was not aware of the situation: she thought they were a couple and that he was divorcing. He wasn't, he was telling everyone she was just for fun.

I had to tell her, she was my friend and I still liked her, I couldn't stand for it anymore.

She seemed composed, told me she'd talk to him about it. She did.

He blamed me for it, told her lies about me and convinced her that I was the one making the problem. She believed it, she lied to me about him and that they'd broken up. I knew that wasn't the case. She was playing along to his lies.

I had to step away from that.

Eventually I learned that he was also mishandling the business and he'd been ripping off customers and not reporting income. That was it, I stopped any contribution to the business which eventually tanked it as we were still keeping it afloat from my disposable income (or so I thought, he was taking money from it by not reporting)

This is the most "up there" moment I can remember, but it I don't know if it goes back further. I mentioned that family has a history of  relationships and that also causes issues. I don't want to be like them, I can't stand cheating.

Anyway also back at relationships I posted about my relationship history but I'll repeat in part here just for reference. It seems I was put second or it just evaporated in all my relationships, though I realize in part my expectations were off sometimes.

A cousin I was close with and good friends stopped caring when she started dating, I moved a lot so I couldn't keep up with school friends, girls I liked wouldn't like me back, and those who did I had no interest or had even noticed they tried to connect with me.

It seems whenever I got close to anyone, friends or dates, I would get the short end of it, it just wouldn't work.

I had been so focused on school before the business incident that I hadn't had any friends in years. They took me in, I felt part of a group, we had such a good time just hanging out I thought they were to be trusted. turned out I was wrong.

Later I found others at work were stealing from it, one got caught and almost ended up in jail for it. They would talk about their infidelities like it was ok, they didn't moderate anything they said because they just assumed I was in on it too, I was part of the group right?

Later when I met my "latest" gfwBPD I had a moment where I just "knew" she was lying to me. I haven't found the lie, but I still had that feeling, and it was intense. It was all going so well I panicked. I didn't trust her.

Anyway that's the long and short of it.

I know the theory of trusting takes time, that developing a relationship takes time. I spend close to a year with them ("friends" from work), I've been (admittedly on and off) with my gf for over two years now, people get married in less time and live happily ever after.

I know there's an art to trusting, but I feel this is keeping people away from me, that I am keeping people away because of this, including the girlfriend I felt was so worth it that I keep trying to understand what went wrong that she had to cut me off.

If I cannot manage to "trust" someone I desperately want to be with, imagine how my mind reacts to acquaintances, distant friends and infrequently contacted relatives: I don't care as much, and particularly with family that I "have" to see every once in a while, I will just "not be there", ie. stare into a window at an empty room.

In order to find a workable solution lets imagine that my trust thing is actually broken. would you tell a person with a broken foot to just walk it off? you can't, it hurts, I know I'd have to move around but I need a chair, I need crutches, someone to lean on that won't require that I put my foot down on the floor (as in, I don't need to trust them).

That's how I feel right now with this situation. Keeping people at a distance is the crutch, I can manage, but its one hell of an inconvenience whenever anyone says they want to go for a "trust/friendship/relationship" hike, I can't keep up.

I can probably fake my way through it, but at what cost... .

Hopefully that makes sense.

[JNChell]

Hey, Snap.

I’d wager to say that your “trust” compass isn’t broken. Do you think that it’s possible that you were never really shown how to calibrate it properly? I’ve trusted some wrong people along the way as well. Don’t beat yourself up. It sounds like some self awareness was born out of these experiences. That’s a positive.

Geeze, the situation between your ex biz partner and the girl you liked is tough stuff to say the least. Did the girl know that you had interests beyond friendship with her? I’m sorry that the biz tanked, but you’re better off without that guy in your life. He sounds like a master manipulator. Take what you learned by trying to build a business with him and better yourself with that knowledge.

I’ve been paying particular attention to the subject of expectations when it comes up around here. Some very seasoned members give advice that says that we need to be careful with having expectations of others. I’m starting to understand this POV the more that I think about it. Maybe having expectations of others is relying on them a bit too much. Since we only have control over ourselves, we can put ourselves at risk by having expectations of others. This is just a thought. It’s new territory for me.

I would never advise an injured person to simply get over it. I’ve been told this in the past. It was invalidating and caused me a great deal of confusion. It hurt.

It sounds like you’re really taking personal inventory here. Good on you for doing that. It’s important. Do you have people in your life that you’re genuinely able to trust? I have a handful and have made the choice to spend my time with them on my path for the time being. It’s been helpful for me to continue my self work and surround myself with people that I care about, and that I trust in the fact that they care about me. It’s working and I’m becoming a better, stronger and more understanding individual for it.

[itsmeSnap]

Hey JNChell, thanks for the follow up.

Did the girl know that you had interests beyond friendship with her?

Yes she did, she asked a few times, I told her in no uncertain terms but I was always the second choice. She told me that she was interested in someone else, I accepted that. She went on another relationship after the incident and came talk to me about it, she cared about my opinion.

Unfortunately he also cheated on her, she had a kid with him.

She came to me but I was too hurt, why would she come now that things were so bad for her and not when we could have had a life together?

I rejected her, I still beat myself up about it sometimes, she's beautiful and caring but she also had cheated on partners and after the incident I did not trust her intentions.

I am financially well off, she had it rough even when we were closer, she made a deal about it how she wanted "humble love" and not material things, it was a jab at me and my situation. When she hit "rock bottom" and came to me I had a visceral feeling: I was attracted to her, still am, but I could not react positively to her, so I pushed her away.

Anyway, more trust issues I guess.

Do you have people in your life that you’re genuinely able to trust?

I am the one they trust, they defer  to me when they have an issue, so when I talk about mine they have little to say, "I know better than them" they say.

I talk to my brother about a lot of things but he only reflects back to me. He also says things differently than they are but I know his reasons for it, he is not malicious

I’ve been paying particular attention to the subject of expectations when it comes up around here

Me too, unrealistic expectations are a shackle holding us back. And yet at some point we have to expect something from people. I guess the thing is we confuse expectations with entitlement: they SHOULD do this or that. Its not like that.

I guess this is why I have issues with this: if not family or " good friends" Like i thought biz partner and co. were to have your back then what? Be alone? Have just cold professional relationships with doctors and restaurants and store clerks to take care of my physical needs, maybe a therapist to check up on my mental health?

And then what? Just keep at it till old age does its thing?

I feel like that would be just strapping myself to the matrix haha

I want people in my life but I keep pushing them away because of this. I used to think this was for my own protection, but then I started reading about people with BPD and how they (we?) think the same and its self defeating.

I have so much more knowledge than I had before, I'm movin to a new place and will likely meet new people. I hope I meet someone I can trust. If not well being a hermit is always a possibility or even the inevitable outcome of pushing everyone away haha well have to wait and see I guess

I might have to do something reckless and get a girl pregnant or to marry me while we're in the overly trusting honeymoon phase if I want to ever have a family of my own. it will cause issues down the line but I can handle issues, I don't want to be alone.

Don't judge me haha

Bad advice I know, people do just fine despite that, I guess I should give up expectations of a "perfect life"

I am not a bad person and I can handle responsibility for my actions, its not like I'd just leave my partner or my future kids to their luck, I just haven't allowed myself to enter "less than ideal" situations, always overly cautious so nothing ever goes forward.

We'll see what next year brings.

[JNChell]

Snap, pushing people away is familiar around here. From both sides of the equation. Is this something that you’d like to see change?

I’m glad that you’re posting on PSI. Since you’re hear, what do you think has caused this level of distrust aside from your adult relationships? What do you think has attracted you to people that you can’t trust in adulthood?

I heard a discussion the other day that talked about things that you’ve mentioned. In a nutshell the discussion was about our insides not knowing our outsides. Our insides are wired to react. Our adult outsides can see things differently, but our insides feel differently. Our insides are processing and have been trained to send certain stimuli to certain places throughout our bodies. Our bodies are surviving at this point.

There’s a term that is used here a lot. Radical Acceptance . I believe that mind over matter can trickle in here as well. I also think that getting a healthy grasp on what ails us is important for us to get a healthy grasp on the aforementioned.

[itsmeSnap]

what do you think has caused this level of distrust aside from your adult relationships? What do you think has attracted you to people that you can’t trust in adulthood?

I still don't know that. There might be something I'm blocking or have simply forgot. Can't tell for sure.

As to why I'm attracted to people not to be trusted, I guess I wanted too much to be able to trust, to belong. People took advantage of that and I probably didn't even want to see the red flags.

I heard a discussion the other day that talked about things that you’ve mentioned. In a nutshell the discussion was about our insides not knowing our outsides. Our insides are wired to react. Our adult outsides can see things differently, but our insides feel differently. Our insides are processing and have been trained to send certain stimuli to certain places throughout our bodies. Our bodies are surviving at this point.

I sort of get what you mean. That's maybe why I was thinking about just doing things that don't feel quite right. I know its asking for trouble, but right now that sounds better than the alternative.

Just surviving is not enough anymore. I want more, if that brings trouble so be it.

And again, its not like I'm doing something bad to anyone, its just that its not "the smartest move". Well thought out, planned "ideal" outcomes have me in this rut, I feel like doing something "stupid" for once haha.

I don't know, that sounds like a bad idea, but what are my choices? slow and steady hasn't worked for me (a few girls I was just bored to death when being with them even though they liked me and I liked them a bit), there was nothing there, I gave up, I consciously and unequivocally wanted out.

Planned and perfect, even if intense like with my now separated most recent gf didn't pan out because I cannot expect her to follow through.

So that leaves "reckless and spur of the moment", get "stuck" with the consequences. I guess it is those consequences exactly what I am looking forward to but haven't made the leap because of my issues.

This sounds like the most self destructive thing I've said I would do, what I have been doing in the past has not been entirely healthy either.

Is there another path that I am not seeing?

[JNChell]

Is there another path that I am not seeing?

The path to healing. Starting down a reckless path won’t help you. Trust me on that. A negative + a negative doesn’t equal a positive. Be careful and mindful with your gratification. Don’t bring any unneeded guilt or shame into your life. Look inward and process what you need to. Work towards identifying the reasons why it’s hard for you to trust and remedy those reasons. You owe yourself a happy life that allows you to trust people that have earned it. A reckless endeavor will delay this, or worse, send you down a path of no return.

[Harri]

Hi Snap! 

Just surviving is not enough anymore. I want more, if that brings trouble so be it.

And again, its not like I'm doing something bad to anyone, its just that its not "the smartest move". Well thought out, planned "ideal" outcomes have me in this rut, I feel like doing something "stupid" for once haha.

  I can relate to this!  I am not always sure it is a good thing but boy do I get it.  Going with the smartest move can be boring and too rigid and sometimes feels like a prison for me.  One of my favorite things to ask myself is "what's the worst that can happen?"  LOL  Now I don't do anything crazy and I still think things through but that question frees me up a bit.  Nike's "just do it" comes to mind. 

Over time, I have been able to relate my planning and being cautious (a nice way for me of saying I was frozen with choice) to lack of trust in my capability to withstand any consequences.  I had learned that consequences could be emotionally damaging to me and to others.   I still struggle with this and I am also seeing how it relates to my anxiety.   So I mutter to myself "what's the worst that can happen, just do it Harri' and I am usually okay even when things go wonky.  As aware as I am about consequences, I am capable of handling them and I remind myself of that.  Now granted, along the lines with what JNChell said, I am not talking about committing a crime or some other dastardly deed, but it is still a struggle.

[once removed]

hey imS,

regarding not trusting your family, what specifically do you not trust them to do or not do?

[itsmeSnap]

As aware as I am about consequences, I am capable of handling them and I remind myself of that.  Now granted, along the lines with what JNChell said, I am not talking about committing a crime or some other dastardly deed, but it is still a struggle.

Of course its not about doing anything damaging, just "not as thoroughly planned and calculated" is what I meant as well.

regarding not trusting your family, what specifically do you not trust them to do or not do?

I do not trust who they say they are.

Everyone keeps secrets I know, but its been my experience with them that they put on a "good guy/girl" show in public and then go and do some "backstabbing" stuff. Not to me anyway, they cheat on their partners, they talk behind people's back, play dumb when they know exactly that they got caught in a lie.

Anyway, point is I don't trust their story.

And unfortunately everyone on the short end of the cheating is desperately trying to believe the lie.

My cousin-friend is married to a much older man. He "courted" her when she was 15 and him 26. He was married at the time and had two kids already. I know for a fact (He told the story in a party before he was "official" with my cousin, he was oh so very proud of his antics) that even then he was going out to get prostitutes with his friends.

I see the same reaction from my cousin as with the girl I liked when I told her about the cheating/lying friend/ex-business partner. They reject reality and attack anyone that doesn't support their own view.

My cousin thinks I'm someone else, she sees her own self in me. She does not see that I followed her because I was shy and she would pull me out of my shell to go out and have fun, nobody else would keep up with her. She thinks I was the "party animal" and that she's the one trapped in boredom. I cannot pull her out of the delusion, and she often says she hates everything I am because she thinks "I am not like that" and therefore am not affected by it. She thinks she's bonding with me over this.

My aunt told lies about my mom at the divorce hearing. She tries to be "civil" with us because she wants to convince my dad that she loves us as much as my dad does so she won't be lashed out at. I mentioned my dad has anger issues, my aunt knows this full well.

Another cousin, got literally ripped off by his boyfriend. Business got shut down, he needed money to survive. My dad helped him. Family was shocked, he was such a "nice gentle soul".

He took the boyfriend back, nothing ever happened. Family treats him like nothing ever happened as well, but they talk behind his back, they mock my cousin for taking him back (maybe I'm doing it here aswell), they don't want him, and yet when he comes around he's part of the family, but talk to anyone and you can tell he's really not.

Yet another cousin was the "family man" of the family. Got married has two kids.

He was cheating throughout his marriage. He's more ashamed that he got caught more so than he did it. He will not say it upfront, only with us cousins, he thinks we're in on it too, he sees his antics in them, he knows because he's been down that road himself, and he lowkey points it out to anyone but the people involved: they don't realize it, they don't want to know, they will lash out at anyone who does anyway so lets just turn it into fun and games with everyone else around.

And that's just on my dad's side.

Cheaters, junkies, freeloaders and abusers on mom's side, always asking for help, always nice when they need a favor. My mom complies of course, its her family, she loves them. They've bankrupted her, left debts unpaid after she offered her own home, they would share responsibilities she said, they would buy booze and go out partying on the weekends, no food on the fridge even when my grandma (80+) had to stay with them, she got malnourished and dehidrated because she would just eat whatever, a piece of cheese and tea, or a stew with the few leftover veggies.

I told my mom about them, she wouldn't believe me. She knew I was right, told me after I managed to sort things out after they moved out: they thought they would get a house themselves, they failed, they wanted to go right back into mom's, I wouldn't let them.

My mom had to go get a job out of town. It tanked, she was supposed to live with my aunt for a few days to get everything sorted and back on her feet. Auntie had already rented out the house and she didn't tell her, she didn't even want to let her get her stuff out of there.

Days later they were best friends again, she tagged along when we were going to a restaurant. Turns out auntie's abusive new husband kicked her out of the house they were moving in together.

Everyone says they care, but they don't. Everyone knows everyone cheats, but not them, they don't want to know. They will treat someone so well and then when that person is out of the room they will complain they can't get rid of them, they didn't want them to come, they can't stand them. They pop back in the room and its all laughs and hugs and good times.

They do what they do, always an excuse when you need help, always an excuse when there's actual work to be done, its always "complicated". One of my aunts had to close her business because the lease expired and had to relocate. its a rural area so you can't just lease another building, it had to be built.

Its a simple kiosk like construction, but she's not exactly young and muscular, so she asked the son in law who is actually a builder. No way he said, its expensive, I don't have time, it costs too much, its too complicated.

He lives right across the street from the site, he has all the tools, the site has construction already so logistics are no issue, he just came back after a job was over and he was temporarily unemployed, he would not pay a cent, my aunt had everything budgeted.

Still no construction. He ate everyday at her restaurant for years, left the daughter/grandkid with her so he would go to work. Aunt gave my cousin money on top of whatever consumption because "they couldn't make ends meet". Cousin had her own business selling clothes, they will go out on a vacation trip no problem, spend on hotels and drinks and restaurants.

I might be picking at little things but they are not who they say they are.

Whatever they say are empty promises unless it benefits them or fits "their reality".

I cannot expect them to do anything, I know that. But it still hurts particularly when those broken promises drag down my mom and take advantage of my dad. They also want to believe, its better to not know than to face the fact that they are also being hurt by them. They will not see that I am trying my best to help them.

I know it's not my place to help them if they don't want to, but when they allow me I have managed to sort the situation every  time. its so  frustrating that I know I can do it and know how but they just won't  let me. Same with my gf, I know I can make things right because I have, I just cannot do it anymore because she just pulls away and slips back out.

Ok so you see my frustration with it, I have started cutting "the bad apples" out of my life, but I cannot cut them out of my immediate family's life, they won't allow it and I'm supposed to just stand back and watch them get hurt or taken advantage of.

I don't even know where I'm going with this. I guess I'm trying to get you to see why I don't trust, and why, even when I should, my subconscious just wont. I expect everyone to lie and be fake, I've had no experience to tell me otherwise, so when things were right with my gf I felt she was lying, no evidence no nothing needed, I just "knew".

I went over and over it and there was no lie. She lied to someone else, she didn't tell me the whole truth, she said things I knew she couldn't have done. It caused a breakup anyway. "I" caused the breakup, I don't trust her either.

Anyway my point about just doing something reckless related to this. I can accept that I will not trust anyone ever, no matter how hard I try. I will get into a situation knowing full well I will never trust them, might even let them know if things get serious enough, being aware that I will disregard any feelings of being lied to will mean that I won't have issues with it: I will just "play around the lie", take my precautions for things going bad and go about my merry life, no trying to fix anything or prevent the fallout, I will have my escape route ready so why bother.

Its cynical, but it might just work. Just like a handicap preventing me from running a marathon, doesn't mean I cannot accomplish things in my life my own way, and I think this will have to do.

Keeping people at a distance will be my "paralympic chair". I can do wonderful things, just not "like a healthy person would" if that makes any sense.

Like JNChell says I might just be beating myself over this. But everyone recommends to everyone (I've done this too): accept your current reality, work your way up from there.

Not trusting anyone is my reality right now. I will work with that reality: I need a prosthetic, I cannot try to "grow a limb", it won't happen. And like Randi said when I asked her a question:

Psychiatry is not at the point where we know how to fix a broken brain

She was talking about my gfwBPD but that still applies here, so not even a professional could do it. Its about management of symptoms and creating an accommodating environment (building access ramps instead of forcing myself to walk)

I keep making simple questions into book level posts haha hopefully you guys are not too overwhelmed yourselves by all this. I appreciate the help I've gotten so far.

Thoughts/comments?

[once removed]

i dont like cheating either.

thing is, theyre not going to cheat on you.

we all have some darkness in us, things we are all capable of. we shouldnt go putting our neck on the line, but connecting with others requires some risk, some vulnerability.

have you heard about the outer critic?

[itsmeSnap]

I had a long reply to this. I re-read it before posting, it sounded defensive like you wouldn't believe.

I don't know why I'm feeling attacked by this. I read about the critic thing, I guess it sounds to me like: "you are broken, you are a prisoner of your own mind, reject your own twisted thoughts, be better"

I was just about to write an excuse like "maybe I'm feeling tired", but then I remembered that is exactly one of the things that keep us stuck.

I need a break. I feel my anxiety rising.

I will get back to you I promise.

[once removed]

its not my intention to attack you imS, or to put you on the spot. it might have sounded like i was minimizing your difficulty with your family.

I read about the critic thing, I guess it sounds to me like: "you are broken, you are a prisoner of your own mind, reject your own twisted thoughts, be better"

that might be the inner critic. the outer critic is the voice that, in seeking to protect us, pushes others away.

www.pete-walker.com/pdf/ShrinkingOuterCritic.pdf

[itsmeSnap]

to once removed:

that might be the inner critic. the outer critic is the voice that, in seeking to protect us, pushes others away.

your reply came up just as I was posting this, that is the exact article I read, I get what you mean.

-- og post starts here -- 

ok I'm calmer now. I am seeing some conflicting advice which made my head spin a little.

we shouldnt go putting our neck on the line, but connecting with others requires some risk, some vulnerability.

Isn't that putting our neck on the line?  

I get what you're saying, not the neck but maybe just the hand; that might still get chopped and I need that hand, maybe it's not as "life or death" as my neck, but you can see my issue here.

And I hear you say "but snap, maybe it won't get chopped off, maybe it just gets dirty, can you handle that?"

I don't know whats in that dirt, growing up and even in my adult life there was always "glass in the dirt", I learned the hard way not to put my hand in the dirt, can you blame me for not wanting to touch it?

of course not, I also hear you say "snap, be reasonable, not all dirt has glass in it". And indeed that's true, but maybe I need a better "dirt analyzer" than my own glass-scarred hand don't you think?

I am an engineer by education, It is "my job" to solve problems with better technology. It often comes down to having the right tool, and sometimes the "available tools" just don't quite hit the mark. Imagine trying to unscrew a bolt with pliers: you can, you're gonna mess up the hex because its not made for that, eventually you'll wear it out and the pliers will be no use.

When I read about what people recommend it doesn't feel like the natural fit to my problem and I'm feeling like I'm using pliers to unscrew that bolt.

Not to be pessimistic, maybe I am, but it's always about solving the crisis. No crisis = no problem. Just go with it. And when I want to prepare before the fallout I get blank stares, nobody seems to have even considered what to do before the crisis has emerged, because nobody seems to think that "stable enough" may not actually be good enough.

Of course its a choice to have a goal and stick to it; not everyone wants to go to the moon, but did nobody ever consider that you COULD go to the moon? did so few people feel the need to prepare before the storm hits that we only have hurricane shelters instead of a capable storm surge infrastructure?

I see a problem I can fix, and then I hear fixing problems is not the solution. Then what is? Do nothing? I get the "not make things worse" notion but nothing? is " doing something" = "making things worse"?

I read about the critic thing and it said some things about keeping yourself captive with self sabotaging words and actions, but the solution it seems is also self defeating:

To not be a perfectionist, you have to accept that you are inherently flawed and will never achieve perfection

To heal, you have to convince yourself that you are not inherently flawed and will always improve towards a more well adapted self.

To not be judgmental, you have to look at particular problems individually and make decisions on a case by case basis

To not be obsessive, you have to stop nit-picking and look at the big picture, how it all relates and connects with one another

See what I mean?

i dont like cheating either.

thing is, theyre not going to cheat on you.

we all have some darkness in us

I don't like stealing either, a coworker of mine once stole from the company and got caught. I considered him my friend, he was my mentor at the company and I hung out with him from day one. I could not talk to him again, he even wanted me to attend his birthday party/get together thing, I was still HIS friend, and yet I couldn't see him the same. Did he do anything to me? of course not, he stole from a faceless corporation. But now I didn't trust him near me or my newly forming business, I didn't trust him as a person.

I could separate those two incidents, maybe he would never steal from me because I was his friend. But it was hard for me to do it, I couldn't separate it, to me he was now a thief and a liar and that was it. He did nothing to me, I still could not trust him again.

I feel like that around my extended family.

I have been mostly able to work out my issues with mom and dad, even if they did do some neglectful things they are still my parents and I can move on.

With my gf I am (was, don't know anymore) willing to do the same, but she won't have me now, not right now anyway.

To trust again is not the same as move on. It is a willingness to get hurt again. I don't want to get hurt again. I know I am putting up walls.

I guess I'm looking for someone patient enough to tear them down with me. I want a family I can trust, but it has to (inflexible much?) be my own, my wife and kids that I don't yet have. And yet the one relationship that was going "mostly ok" I still pushed away.

I keep going back to this incident, any advice on how to move past this? I feel like I've written about it a thousand times already.

I know I go around a lot of topics in a post, typing as they come up, there's no planning here, just streaming consciousness