How do you enforce good behavior?

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

Hi everyone,

An update to my situation and a question that I have a hard time answering:

So almost 2 months have gone by since my stbexBPDw agreed in front of our couples T that we would jointly seek mediation for a divorce so as to avoid putting our kids in the middle. I didn’t really believe her at the time, and low and behold 2 months later and she still hasn’t accepted to enter mediation. A mediator selected and recommended by our D10’s T has been contacted by me but is awaiting stbexBPDw’s phone call.

StbexBPDw must always be in control and continues to delay our eventual separation. However, tomorrow my L will be sending her a letter asking her to present herself and her legal advisor to discuss the divorce I’m requesting. In the meeting my L will highly recommend we attempt to do discuss the details outside of court. Hopefully stbexBPDw will finally accept with this more authoritative nudge but I have doubts... .I believe this will have to settled in front of the judge unfortunately.

So my dilemma and question:

I’ve read enough to understand that it is better for our children during the divorce process to concentrate not eliminating my stbexBPDw from the kids but rather on eliminating my stbexBPDw’s bad behaviors. Got it! Be flexible in time scheduling. Got it! Be willing to compromise while putting the children’s needs first the whole way. Got it!

The theory is all wonderful and great, I think I will follow it quite well. But how do I enforce my stbexBPDw from continuing her bad behaviors? Specifically, what should I ask in mediation or to a judge as viable options to better her behaviors?

I’m worried about a lot of bad behaviors but most importantly her constant bashing of me in front of the children. It seems to be intensifying as the divorce progresses. How can you objectively monitor and reprimand an offending parent? I’m seriously worried that she will alienate our children from me, whether conscious or not.

If anyone has been successful in this situation of laying down fruitful rules please let me know.

Thanks,
LAT

[LightAfterTunnel]

Hi everyone,

An update to my situation and a question that I have a hard time answering:

So almost 2 months have gone by since my stbexBPDw agreed in front of our couples T that we would jointly seek mediation for a divorce so as to avoid putting our kids in the middle. I didn’t really believe her at the time, and low and behold 2 months later and she still hasn’t accepted to enter mediation. A mediator selected and recommended by our D10’s T has been contacted by me but is awaiting stbexBPDw’s phone call.

StbexBPDw must always be in control and continues to delay our eventual separation. However, tomorrow my L will be sending her a letter asking her to present herself and her legal advisor to discuss the divorce I’m requesting. In the meeting my L will highly recommend we attempt to do discuss the details outside of court. Hopefully stbexBPDw will finally accept with this more authoritative nudge but I have doubts... .I believe this will have to settled in front of the judge unfortunately.

So my dilemma and question:

I’ve read enough to understand that it is better for our children during the divorce process to concentrate not eliminating my stbexBPDw from the kids but rather on eliminating my stbexBPDw’s bad behaviors. Got it! Be flexible in time scheduling. Got it! Be willing to compromise while putting the children’s needs first the whole way. Got it!

The theory is all wonderful and great, I think I will follow it quite well. But how do I enforce my stbexBPDw from continuing her bad behaviors? Specifically, what should I ask in mediation or to a judge as viable options to better her behaviors?

I’m worried about a lot of bad behaviors but most importantly her constant bashing of me in front of the children. It seems to be intensifying as the divorce progresses. How can you objectively monitor and reprimand an offending parent? I’m seriously worried that she will alienate our children from me, whether conscious or not.

If anyone has been successful in this situation of laying down fruitful rules please let me know.

Thanks,
LAT

[kells76]

Yes, that would be tricky. It's probably not 100% possible to STOP your kids' mom from badmouthing you in front of the kids, if she wants to. But there might be things to ask for in the divorce agreement that would at least shine some light on who is doing what.

See if you can include in a proposed div agreement verbiage about "both parents shall refrain from anything besides positive or neutral statements about the other parent when the kids are around" (there's probably better-worded statements out there). This "should" not be something she balks at including in the agreement, especially as it covers both of you. If she does, then she's shining light on her own desire for bad behavior, and you and your L can decide how to use that information. See if you can have written in some enforceable consequences to noncompliance there.

She might not balk at it, which would be good. But I wouldn't be surprised if she then found ways to be like "It's not badmouthing to say that LAT is X, Y, and Z; I'm just telling the kids the truth about him". That would tell me it's time to get the kids' T involved. Maybe you hear the kids saying something to you like "You always get what you want, you never care about what anyone else wants" or even something more specific, but something where it likely came from Mom's ranting. I would probably talk just you and T and be like "Look, when the kids said X, I made sure to be Open To Dialogue ("Oh no, that would be awful, tell me about the times when it seemed like I was that way") and be validating, but I'm really concerned about where they got that idea from". Or, be even more straightforward with the T about where you think they got it from (Mom).

Overall it seems to me that trying to Make xW NOT badmouth you would be a losing battle. But putting up a LOT of boundaries and consequences around badmouthing is something you CAN do.

Just some brainstorming; I bet you'll get more ideas from the group, too... .

[Mutt]

Hi LightAfterTunnel,


Theres a period where emotions run high on both sides after a divorce it’s not always going to be intense. As you already know there are periods where the behaviours are less intense and other times more intense.

Have a journal and document it if she does something that breaks the court order. It’s hard to remember every instance with a pwBPZlD I find it hard when she’s projecting or dissosiation and changing the narrative. I get mixed up do writing it down helps.

Carry a personal recorder on you you can find apps and record the switch on and switch off days. I recorded my ex when she was bad mouthing to me. Don’t volunteer any information, don’t tell her about this if you’re trying to put her in check by telling her that you’re capturing this.

Lastly and I think this is the most important is make sure that your court order is clear with no ambiguity do if you have to say pick up at your place by the side of the curb at 1830 on Fridays. The ambiguity gives the other person ammunition to start drama because you can interpret into it you take that away and there’s nothing to use for drama.

[worriedStepmom]

See if you can include in a proposed div agreement verbiage about "both parents shall refrain from anything besides positive or neutral statements about the other parent when the kids are around" (there's probably better-worded statements out there). This "should" not be something she balks at including in the agreement, especially as it covers both of you. If she does, then she's shining light on her own desire for bad behavior, and you and your L can decide how to use that information. See if you can have written in some enforceable consequences to noncompliance there.

She might not balk at it, which would be good. But I wouldn't be surprised if she then found ways to be like "It's not badmouthing to say that LAT is X, Y, and Z; I'm just telling the kids the truth about him". That would tell me it's time to get the kids' T involved. Maybe you hear the kids saying something to you like "You always get what you want, you never care about what anyone else wants" or even something more specific, but something where it likely came from Mom's ranting. I would probably talk just you and T and be like "Look, when the kids said X, I made sure to be Open To Dialogue ("Oh no, that would be awful, tell me about the times when it seemed like I was that way") and be validating, but I'm really concerned about where they got that idea from". Or, be even more straightforward with the T about where you think they got it from (Mom).

Therapists will be crucial to proving that mom is doing things like that.

In my case, uBPDmom spoke badly about me and H all the time.  She wasn't deliberately trying to alienate, she just used SD11 as her sounding board/therapist, so she told SD all the things that made her upset.  SD11's therapist finally had a sit-down with uBPDmom and told her point-blank "your daughter wants you to stop saying bad things about her father and stepmother."  uBPDmom was very upset and accused the world of trying to brainwash SD, but she has stopped saying many of those things.

My friend has an ex who is dNPD.  He deliberately tells the kids all kinds of stuff about their mom; he says he has a responsibility to tell them how evil their mom is so that they will know.  The kids' T testified at a modification about this, my friend had recordings of NPDex telling her that he would tell the kids she was evil, and she had emails from him describing what he would say if she didn't do X or Y.  The judge was very very upset, put in temporary orders forbidding him from saying anything negative about my friend, and if he violates it, there will be an enforcement hearing and he will have a fine or go to jail.

[ForeverDad]

I’ve read enough to understand that it is better for our children during the divorce process to concentrate not eliminating my stbexBPDw from the kids but rather on eliminating my stbexBPDw’s bad behaviors. Got it! Be flexible in time scheduling. Got it! Be willing to compromise while putting the children’s needs first the whole way.

Be careful that your stbEx doesn't interpret 'flexible' and 'compromise' as you having weak boundaries and a pushover, that would enable her sense of control and possibly invite even more obstruction.

But how do I enforce my stbexBPDw from continuing her bad behaviors? Specifically, what should I ask in mediation or to a judge as viable options to better her behaviors?

As for you, clear and firm boundaries are important.  Sadly, most pwBPD resist boundaries.  So odds are you can't make her observe boundaries.  Then why are they important?  The boundaries are for you!  In this sense... ."If you do or don't do ___ then I will or will not do ___."  An example is... .If you rant or rage (or whatever) then I will leave with the kids and we'll go to the park, see a movie or eat at a restaurant until you calm down.  Okay, that specific example may not apply once you're separated and divorced, so you can substitute (1) her poor behavior and (2) what you can do to address the situation and limit the damage.

As for mediation and court orders, think ahead to probable scenarios and how to limit her from misusing them.  For example, mediators and lawyers are likely to "pooh pooh" you when you raise concerns about ways she will try to make end runs around orderly parenting arrangements.  By default they will expect her to behave reasonably like most people.  However, you've been there, done that, you know better.  So try to remove standard clauses that are purposely vague since it is expected the parents will work together to make the order successful.  That "reasonable" telephone contact clause?  That "mutually agreeable" exchange time/location clause?  That sort of vagueness allows a sabotaging ex to reinterpret the order or create barely plausible loopholes that could force you to spend 6-12 months back in court to resolve them.

Write down the ways she tries to sabotage you now.  Perhaps with our peer support assistance, determine how best to reduce those risks going forward.  Ponder the issues we've faced.  Might she try some of those efforts on you?  This is where having time-tested strategies comes in.  Be proactive.  (This does not mean aggressive.)  Think ahead.  Don't wait for your Ex to spring traps and surprises on you.  Yes, you can't protect yourself from everything, but better to be proactive overall rather than always on the defense.

[LightAfterTunnel]

Thank you everyone for the replies! Sorry it has taken so long to reply

That would tell me it's time to get the kids' T involved.

kells76 and worriedStepmom,

Yeah, I believe that you two are correct that I will need to be very on top of these issues with D10 and S8 therapists. Honestly I can't even imagine how this will be in the future... .it's been impossible to really have any constructive dialogue with stbexBPDw throughout years of therapy. I look forward to having constructive dialogue with my kids' therapists if and when the situation warrants. Thanks you two!

Mutt,

When you state a clear and unambiguous court order... .I totally get it and I hope to impress this upon the judge when the time comes. Specifically, I hope that I have already documented enough of stbexBPDw's behaviors in an orderly fashion that it is clearly evident for the need to have these unambiguous details. Thanks.

ForeverDad,

Thanks for the comments. There are some very good points made. And yes, I will make a list of the things she does already and sometime in the future I will definitely ask for everyone's advice and peer support. Thanks.


SO... .update.

My lawyer decided last minute to wait another week before sending the aforementioned letter... .she was going to be out of town a couple of days and preferred to wait to send it until her return. So my lawyer sent the letter last Thursday. It should have arrived Friday or Saturday at the latest.

In the past, I had been extremely stressed about when my wife would be contacted by my lawyer because I have worried she would go berserk with the kids present. Friday, there was no sign that the letter arrived. Saturday, I took D10, S8, and D5 ice skating at around 1pm and we got back at 5pm. StbexBPDw was gone and the house was a wreck. There was no mail in the mailbox but I guessed the letter arrived while we were out and that she probably raged and left. She was supposed to go to an artshow at 6pm and stay for a couple of hours. She didn't return by midnight and then I fell asleep. Don't know when she got back.

Sunday morning she got up around 11am while the kids and me were finishing a late breakfast. Kids ran upstairs. It was just her and me in the kitchen. I asked "Is there anything you would like to talk about?" Her response "No, why the #$%^$ would I want to talk to you?" I replied "I don't know. I guessed maybe that you would want to talk. Did you receive a letter yesterday?" She replied "No, what letter?" I didn't expect this and I didn't know what to respond. I must say that I didn't want to start a fight by letting her know that my lawyer was summoning her. So I replied "An important letter. Nevermind." I walked out of the house to take the recycling out to the trash down the road. I looked into the mailbox and it was still empty. The mail is not delivered on Sunday so I thought "wow the letter didn't come yet!"

The recycling bins are maybe 300m away down the road so I walked it down and came back. I was gone less than 10 min. When I returned there was a letter in our mailbox! Obviously stbexBPDw had put it there.  I opened up the mailbox and it wasn't the letter from the lawyer, but rather an advertisement for glasses. I thought "that's weird... .why would she put that in the mailbox". I was confused. I just left it at that but I figured some weird game was being played.

Today, Monday, I return from work. No mail again. So now I understood that yes a game is being played. After I put kids to bed I went to stbexBPDw and said "Did you get the letter?" Her reply "No, what letter?" I said "My lawyer sent you a letter Thursday and it should have arrived Friday or Saturday. You didn't receive it?" Her reply "I don't know what you're talking about." I said "Listen... .it's important that you give the letter to your lawyer." Then she revealed the game by saying "Why?" I replied "Because we need to start this process immediately. It can't wait anymore." Her reply "What process?" And I said "The divorce."

There was much more discussion about the divorce with her, specifically on Sunday. I am not hiding anything from her and I have been very upfront and honest with her. I don't get if she is in denial or is just playing a game. I honestly don't get it. Two months went by without her contacting a mediator as she was supposed to as per her own supposed wanting as she claimed in front of not only our therapist, but a second time in front of D10's therapist. Then when I finally called the recommended mediator, she wouldn't call him back. Finally, after pushing her, she called him and then told him that she didn't want him to mediate us because she wanted a woman... .

My stbexBPDw is not a waif or someone to back off. She's a rabid fighter. She never backs down from anything so I feel as if this is all a game and I'm just waiting for the ferocious beast to come out of hiding at any moment. Or maybe her superiority complex is showing and she thinks that my requests are below her to have to reply to... .I don't get it.

Anyone have any ideas?

No matter what I will speak with my lawyer tomorrow. Next Monday if stbexBPDw or her lawyer has not contacted my lawyer then I believe a request for an emergency hearing will be made within the subsequent week.

She'll have to deal with this soon.

LAT

[worriedStepmom]

My ex is not personality disordered.  He decided to end the marriage.  He moved out.  Six weeks later, he filed for divorce.  Divorces in our state usually take 30 days. However, for the next six months, he did NOTHING to move the divorce forward.  Not a darn thing. 

I finally told my lawyer I was done and instructed her to get things over with.  30 days later, the judge pronounced us divorced, but ex still wouldn't sign the papers for a few weeks.  He told me he was mad that I was in such a hurry to get the divorce (ya know, the one he said he wanted).

I am pretty positive that my ex sat on things because being divorced wasn't important to him.  He had accomplished his primary goal - not having to act married to me - and was dating again, so having that piece of paper that said divorced meant very little.  Actually being divorced was not as much fun, because it cost him money.

Your wife doesn't want to be divorced, for whatever reason.  She's actively fighting you right now by refusing to participate.   Once you force the issue, then it will probably get ugly.  For now, it suits her purposes to delay.

[ForeverDad]

I am not hiding anything from her and I have been very upfront and honest with her. I don't get if she is in denial or is just playing a game. I honestly don't get it.

I think you're doing things well but now that the tensions are probably ramping up I'll just add a reminder about Too Much Information (TMI).  Most here have personality traits where we feel impelled to be overly-fair and overly-sharing.  However, there are aspects of a high conflict divorce where those otherwise excellent traits are a disadvantage, it could even get to a point where that over-sharing or over-fairness could be self-sabotaging.

I'll give an example regarding parenting schedules.  You would be inclined to start thinking of 50% even though you are aware the children would do better living more in a stable and consistent home with you.  That's our sense of fairness.  What position would your spouse take?  (If she is anything like mine was, she'd block all parental contact and insist on you having only supervised visits.)  Odds are she won't be overly fair as you are.  If she doesn't demand 90-99% time she may only demand you get only alternate weekends.  That's quite a difference in perspective.  Do you see how being fair could put you at a disadvantage?

Going a step further, imagine this goes to the court with her terms 80-90% or more and you're still sitting unchanged at 50%.  What would a judge do with a temp order, often set in a brief half hour hearing?  With mothers still historically getting the unstated preference in many courts, couldn't the judge be inclined to split the difference and default to a typical alternate weekend schedule?  The judge may reason, "After all, it's only temporary, if anything is off it'll get fixed in a few months in the final decree.  I know father's attorney is concerned the divorce may take up to a year or even two but I will gamble that this temporary order really will be only temporary."

[livednlearned]

I don't get if she is in denial or is just playing a game.

It's stonewalling. She thwarted you and the payoff was worth it. She got to see you confused and frustrated. It also bought her some time to think about her next move.

With any plan you have going forward anticipate stonewalling and obstruction and factor it into the way you structure things.

Try to not figure out why she's doing something. Be three steps ahead. Shape everything so that even when she does not comply, you can move forward.

For example, assume she cannot and will not mediate and prepare yourself for court. You can be pleasantly surprised if she ends up mediating, and if not, you have psychologically and legally prepared yourself for court.

"Mediation needs to take place by day/date. I think it's best if we handle this in mediation, and at the same time, it's equally important to get this handled as quickly as possible for the kids. If we don't have something set up by day/date, I will get with my attorney and begin the court process. It's better than slipping into limbo and dragging out uncertainty for the kids."

Then stick to what you said you would do. You have an opportunity with divorce to show that you are stepping into a new, assertive dynamic. The structure will be good for her even though she'll protest because her disability prevents her from doing this on her own.