What I'm doing isn't working out so well. That much is clear to me.

[stolencrumbs]

I understand SC.   can I suggest you may want to be cautious about how you fill in the blanks around some of the information you have?   If the person can not contact anyone,   that's different from you not having contact with her mental health team.    there is differences between voluntary and involuntary holds, there is nuance to all of this.    the picture may indeed be difficult,  the local facility may be always full.    I would hope this doesn't translate to impossible.

'ducks

Yeah, I'd have contact with her team, and I know there's lots of nuance. I've done as much information gathering as I can do. I've talked with my T, been to the mental health facility, and talked with colleagues in psych who know way more about this than I do. I'm not ruling it out, and I don't think anything is impossible. But I do want to be realistic, and the picture I get of mental health crisis care in our area is not a rosy one.

I definitely think she needs professional help. I do not think I am capable or equipped to provide anything close to the help she needs.

[babyducks]

I definitely think she needs professional help. I do not think I am capable or equipped to provide anything close to the help she needs.

I think that's smart.    I am glad you can say that.   I guess the next question is can you say it to her?  In some way, shape or form?     When she says 'you left me here to die for four days', can you redirect her to her therapist,  say something like 'wife I think that's really something to discuss with the right professional, like your therapist'.     obviously you would have to put it in your own words and make it fit your situation at the time.

I totally get that the crisis care in your area is not rosy.    I completely agree with you that she isn't going to come out of 14 days with zero suicidal inclination.  But, if she comes out of 14 days with a referral to a psychiatrist, and appointment set up, would that be a good thing?

[formflier]

Perhaps you live in a rural or more rural area.  Disclose as much at you feel comfortable.

For a while I was the county executive of a very rural county.  The response could be a mishmash of sheriff, volunteer fire department and/or ambulance.

The distances involved meant that we would love to get them all their or at least sheriff and ambulance, however... .in crisis get a first responder there as quick as possible and make the best of it.

Then once a determination was made to transport... .sometimes best to wait or sometimes best to bundle up and go. 

All had extensive training in "managing" a suicidal person.  Putting them in  police car was nothing like an arrest.

Anyway... .the key to my story and to yours is to get professionals involved.

I really like the way ducks laid out the options for times when she "calmly" puts and ideation out there.  She how "the dance" is different in ducks idea?

FF

[stolencrumbs]

I think that's smart.    I am glad you can say that.   I guess the next question is can you say it to her?  In some way, shape or form?     When she says 'you left me here to die for four days', can you redirect her to her therapist,  say something like 'wife I think that's really something to discuss with the right professional, like your therapist'.     obviously you would have to put it in your own words and make it fit your situation at the time.

I totally get that the crisis care in your area is not rosy.    I completely agree with you that she isn't going to come out of 14 days with zero suicidal inclination.  But, if she comes out of 14 days with a referral to a psychiatrist, and appointment set up, would that be a good thing?

Yes, I have said versions of that to her a lot, both in the moment when she has said things like that, and also in times of relative calm. I can go into more detail if it's helpful, but the short version is that she tells me she does not want to feel better given her perception of the state of her life. She has identified the problems, and that life is not worth living, and she is not interested in learning how to cope in the life she has now. She also doesn't think anyone can help her. She laughs at things her T suggests, and thinks the distress tolerance tools are real howlers. She does not want to be medicated and has never consistently taken any psychiatric medication she's been prescribed. She does not have a high opinion of most T's, but she has an even lower opinion of P's.

Yes, I think having an appt would be a good thing.

[babyducks]

I am sorry she said that, both for her sake and yours.   Sorry but not surprised.

Here is the thing I see all the way through what you have described.    She really does not want to be responsible for her own life.     She either wants some one else to be responsible for her happiness or blame them for being inept at making her happy.    Can you see how she treats you the same way as she does T's and P's?   You are all doing a rotten job of making her better.   

If you buy into that line of thinking, that you are responsible for her decision making, that you need to protect her from her actions and words, that you need to make the perfect decision that minimizes risk for her; then you are denying her the opportunity to take responsibilty for her own life.

If she texts you that she is going to burn the house down (again) and you race over to find out if the house is on fire or not, but you don't call 911 you are protecting her.   you are providing her the opportunity to stay stuck in her sickness.    the threat of a house on fire is a geniune crisis.     

she might never accept responsibilty for her own life and her own happiness.   you continuing to accept too much responsibility only allows that... .being overly tolerant of truly appalling behavior only allows that... .      that's pretty much what this entire thread has been about.     can you make her, force her to accept responsibilty, do the hard work of getting better.   No you can't.    that's a horrible thing to face.   it's a terrible spot to be in.   

do you believe she can feel better, do better, be better if she puts the effort in?   does the work?    accepts the medication?    seeks the help?   if you do, than this is what you model to her.   over and over and over again.    listening to some one we care about talk about the terrible quality of their life is deeply scarring.    it's also a distorted reality.     don't buy into it.    continue to give her opportunties to accept responsibilty for her own life.


'ducks

[formflier]

     She either wants some one else to be responsible for her happiness or blame them for being inept at making her happy.    Can you see how she treats you the same way as she does T's and P's?   You are all doing a rotten job of making her better.   
 

Massive point to reflect on... .  Massive.


FF

[Cat Familiar]

If she texts you that she is going to burn the house down (again) and you race over to find out if the house is on fire or not, but you don't call 911 you are protecting her.   you are providing her the opportunity to stay stuck in her sickness.    the threat of a house on fire is a geniune crisis.     

she might never accept responsibilty for her own life and her own happiness.   you continuing to accept too much responsibility only allows that... .being overly tolerant of truly appalling behavior only allows that... .      that's pretty much what this entire thread has been about.     can you make her, force her to accept responsibilty, do the hard work of getting better.   No you can't.    that's a horrible thing to face.   it's a terrible spot to be in.   

do you believe she can feel better, do better, be better if she puts the effort in?   does the work?    accepts the medication?    seeks the help?   if you do, than this is what you model to her.   over and over and over again.    listening to some one we care about talk about the terrible quality of their life is deeply scarring.    it's also a distorted reality.     don't buy into it.    continue to give her opportunties to accept responsibilty for her own life.

babyducks has given you some excellent advice here.

[stolencrumbs]

I appreciate the input from everyone, and I hope I don't come across as unappreciative or dismissive of the advice/input from everyone. I do appreciate it. And I need to hear it, because I know I am way far into a very messed up situation. My life is so far from normal that I'm pretty sure my crisis detector is not functioning properly. I also know that the way I process and "see" things is to noodle with the ideas, ask questions, push back, get feedback, etc. until it makes sense to me. So I thank you sincerely for helping me work through some of this.

Here is the thing I see all the way through what you have described.    She really does not want to be responsible for her own life.     She either wants some one else to be responsible for her happiness or blame them for being inept at making her happy.    Can you see how she treats you the same way as she does T's and P's?   You are all doing a rotten job of making her better.

Yes, I absolutely see that. It doesn't just run through this thread. It runs through our entire 15 years together. Her happiness or unhappiness is always someone else's responsibility, and she is very active in trying to get other people (especially me) to do things that will make her happy. She is very passive about doing things herself and taking on the responsibility for her own happiness. I see that pretty clearly.

I don't think I am responsible for her happiness. It is up to her whether she stays stuck in her sickness, and up to her whether she puts in the work to improve. But that goes both ways, right? If I protect her and try to minimize risks, she's still responsible for whether she stays stuck or not. If we accept that she is responsible for her happiness, then that's that. I can do things to support that or things to hinder that. I accept that I am doing things that make it easier for her to not take responsibility. I don't think I prevent it. She is responsible for it. I'm not in a position to allow or not allow. I can help or hinder. I don't think what I am doing is helping. I accept that. I'm not convinced that calling 911 is helping either. I actually think I would feel better about doing it, and lots of people would assure me that I did the right thing. But I'm not operating under complete ignorance. I have enough information to make some educated guesses about the probability of certain outcomes. I don't know the future, but all outcomes are not equally likely. And there's fear all the way around. There's no option that isn't scary, including continuing to do what I'm doing. So there's going to be fear. I don't want that to dictate my decisions, and I try not to let it. I try to figure out what the best course of action is, and what will be most helpful. Again, I am sure that my thinking is distorted in many respects. And pretty much everyone says I should call 911--my T, friends, family, this board. That counts for a lot. I don't discount what people who maybe see things more clearly are saying. I also don't want to discount what I know about my wife.

[once removed]

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