Tips supporting person with BPD when trying something new and might succeed?

[DharmaGate]

Tips on how to support person with BPD when trying something new, like a new job?

So my daughter has been at her new job a week and after intense anxiety, throwing up, coming home second day she is weathering it.

I had read a person doesn’t want to go over the top with excitement and emotion when pwBPD look like they may succeed so I was careful with that. Sure enough yesterday she admitted she was frustrated with everyone being happy for her. Says she is terrified of going back Monday. We problem solved one situation with parking. Keeps saying it is so new and different. Will keep validating and resting myself so I have energy to listen. 

I am trying to reinforce us just talking about everyday stuff and not just paying attention when there is a problem like I have done in past at times.

Thank you all so much for talking about this stuff!

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[Only Human]

Hi Dharma Gate,

It's great your DD is working and that she feels comfortable talking about her feelings of frustration with you. You're right, too much "hooray!" can cause a setback, I'm glad you asked how to support her while she settles in.

It looks like you're doing just fine, helping her problem solve, not getting too excited, understanding her limits. Finding opportunities to talk about stuff not related to a crisis is something I've also found to be very beneficial to my relationship with my DD.

As for tips, I say keep doing what you're doing, while being mindful if you start to feel like you need to rescue her emotionally. Validating her feelings, listening with empathy, helping her problem-solve, yep, you're on it.

She says she's terrified of going back to work Monday, asking validating questions can help here, I think.

~ OH

[DharmaGate]

 Thanks Only Human ❤️

[wendydarling]

DharmaGate

I had read a person doesn’t want to go over the top with excitement and emotion when pwBPD look like they may succeed so I was careful with that

Is true, I took this exact advice with my DD, thanks for the share. I was so relieved and filled with excitement when my DD started DBT and engaged with the process. I had to keep my hat on, be cool as a cucumber for months on end and waited for her to share and when she did I listened, validated and overtime she opened up more and more, sometimes for hours on end, she had a safe space to work things out for her, she grew in confidence. I'm glad you are taking time to restup DharmaGate it's exhausting stuff and you are right focusing on light day to day stuff helps keep balance.  

DharmaGate, you're on track. Is this a similar role your DD had in her previous job? Change is challenging at the best of times.

WDx

[DharmaGate]

Wendydarling, thanks for commenting you have been a light since the beginning! No totally different kind of work, had done restaurants , now professional office stuff. Is it they interpret hooray as pressure, this aspect has me confused. I was pretty amazed when she brought it up.  

Only human having trouble with phone and posting keep losing stuff is what is emotional rescuing ? I am sure I am prone to it.

Bless you two!

[Only Human]

what is emotional rescuing ? I am sure I am prone to it.

I'm glad you asked! For me, when I sense my DD is nearing an emotional meltdown, my first instinct is to do something, anything, to steer her away from the meltdown, "I don't think that person meant to look at you judgingly," etc. Invalidating, yep - that's what I did before I got here and have to be careful to not go there now. I also would try to point out ways that she's awesome, again very invalidating of her current feelings.

Does that make sense?

~ OH

[DharmaGate]

Only Human, it makes total sense and it is the primary way I invalidate and I did it often. Like a cheerleader, irritating I am sure.  “You are so great, you can do this”. Type statements.  Yes and the signs of a meltdown possibly impending, I often try to use distraction which is also condescending.  So what do you do when you feel the emotion escalating? Ask questions?

[Only Human]

So what do you do when you feel the emotion escalating? Ask questions?

Hard to go wrong when asking validating questions, "What terrifies you about going to work Monday?" then follow up with validation, "I can see why not knowing where to park would make you feel anxious."

I don't have a lot of experience beyond that and know that it's time for me to go further, helping her problem-solve, as you have done.

Did your DD make it to work today?

~ OH

[incadove]

Hi Dharmagate I love this question, I am in a similar place with one dd starting semester again after doing one very successfully then dropping out of two others.  I am always excited and enthusiastic for her new classwork and maybe it is overwhelming or invalidating to her tho she seems to go to me for that, and mostly spend time with her friends which I think is natural... .but I don't really know how to support her best through it all.

I like this thought

I am trying to reinforce us just talking about everyday stuff and not just paying attention when there is a problem like I have done in past at times.

- I so agree with paying attention (and providing support) when there is NOT a problem.  I am trying to do that more, including financial support - giving things proactively that I want to contribute to rather than being there for poor planning/emergencies.  I'm thinking it helps also for dd to know that they do not have to have an emergency for me to be there.

Having things to look forward to is good, I think, I understand it engages the forebrain and so reduces fear reaction, so I think maybe its good to have a little treat together at the end of the week to focus on, that can distract from the day's anxiety.  Does your dd enjoy doing things together with you that you can plan for?

I'm very interested to hear what others have found to be most successful in supporting new efforts/long term.  Thanks for raising this.

[once removed]

Hard to go wrong when asking validating questions

it is. it empowers the other person without us rescuing.

more examples of The Power of Asking Validating Questions here: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=273415.0

[DharmaGate]

OH,
[/quote]Did your DD make it to work today?
This is partly a test post today, to see if my computer problems have ceased and i can post!

Yes she has been going and it has not seemed tramatic since those first couple of days. Hard, lots of anxiety but she is liking parts and figuring out the people stuff.

I can see how this can get so confusing for parents and children experiencing BPD symptoms.  A lot of it is reminding me of when she was little going off to kindergarten!

Thanks for your support!
DG

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[DharmaGate]

Incadove, ❤️ That is a very pretty name
I told my daughter last what you said about activating the forebrain with things to look forward to helping to reduce anxiety, she loved it. ... .nope just lost a long beautiful post to you Incadove... Can so relate with daughter and school me being excited and her wanting to be with friends how is it going?

[incadove]

Thank you Dharmagate so sweet to hear your daughter thought it might be helpful!  Sometimes I worry that my need to rescue extends to this board where I offer advice more than validating :-) . It is so valuable to me that we really connect to each other on these deeply emotional things!

So far so good, my dd started class today and with a little nervousness is looking positively at the semester and is trying to be practical rather than overdoing, I think.  So we're trying to be supportive without fragilizing her and hoping for the best

[wendydarling]

Thanks DG, glad to hear things improving as the days go by, it can be a bumpy ride for sure, I find in general when one issue subsides another one pops up to say hello I'm here, keep us on our toes    

Is it they interpret hooray as pressure, this aspect has me confused. I was pretty amazed when she brought it up.

It is confusing. If you think about it, if someone is feeling overwhelmed, anxious and not sharing, communicating how they feel V what we see is someone about to succeed and we respond with hoorays, pressure builds because we are not meeting their emotional needs. What’s helped me is learning to read emotions and actions, bearing in mind around 80% of communication comes from body language, watch it. If we practice listening with empathy and ask validating questions we can build trust and understanding of their situation. Our children want to be understood. DG I highly recommend the film InsideOut if you've not watched yet. I relate to the character Joy, as you may, she's a hooray, optimistic cheerleader, it’s all going to be alright, we can do this stuff  

I'll be right where you are at some point when my DD returns to work, it will be a highly anxious time for her. DD updated her LinkedIn at the weekend, an emotionally charged experience, she spoke a lot about her degree, education and how painful it was for her and she wishes she knew what she knows now through DBT, the skills and tools. One thing she shared last year is people assume as you've learnt the skills you can apply them, it's not that easy, that is the challenge everyday.

OH, incadove that is a great tip looking forward to experiencing, sharing positive feelings, such as laughter, kindness... .to reduce anxiety. It's so easy for our children to ruminate, feel engulfed, there are many ways we can help them without enabling them. I bought a jigsaw gift for DD over the holidays, promoted as a mindful activity.  It was on a table and everyone who visited us was drawn to spend sometime being mindful! DD loved it, just being.

My tip, reminder for today, is recognising as parents we are doing our very best and our children are doing their very best, even in the most of devastating situations, I've been there. Hope

Great sharing thread DG, thank you!

WDx

[wendydarling]

incadove, just been thinking about your DD learning and what I can share here, that maybe helpful. My DD places all her BPD, life difficulties to her experiences in education, not me, not her friends. This is her truth and I respect that, though my truth is it's broader than that and at the right time we'll explore further. DD's shared that so often she did not understand, get it, the context, what was expected, how to deliver. We've since talked about how we all have different learning styles and it's ok to say hey, I don't understand what you are saying, can you help me achieve what is required to succeed. Hoping this all transfers over to DD's work environment when she gets back there. Last year my DD shared her alphabet in colours, blew my mind, yep she's creative since born, how did I miss this? www.otherthings.com/uw/syn/

While not a tip per se, it's a been a big lesson for us both, and will continue as it may for you

WDx

[smallbluething]

I am finding this thread very useful as my BPD daughter is about to start a vocational course in age care. Like DharmaGate I am anxious about her transition back into study and about how to handle it.

My DD has mild learning difficulties and has failed two previous courses. What happened then was that she would fail a test on a unit and be too ashamed/embarrassed/afraid of disappointing us to say anything. They always give a second go at the tests and if she had said something she could have got extra help to pass, both from us and the college. But instead she was silent and swept the problem under the carpet.

She is actually very excited to have got into the course and very anxious making sure she has the start date right, the enrolment process right and so on.

I am trying to make sure she has enough support this time so she won't get overwhelmed - she has sessions booked with a tutor with expertise in special ed and has had a couple of sessions before college starts. There is also a learning support unit at the college.

I am trying to avoid the being-too-positive pitfall by emphasizing to her that at some point in this course she will likely struggle or fail a test or have an issue with someone, and getting her to think about who she will talk to to solve the problem. She gets too embarrassed/ashamed to speak to me (about failing tests etc) and maybe there is too much mother-daughter baggage there so I am trying to make sure she remembers the *other* people she can talk to who will be able to help her: the tutor, her sister, the college learning support people.

One thing I've been working on is letting go of my own expectations for her, but I also want to try to get *her* to let go of worries about meeting my expectations and her own, and to just focus on doing the best she can for herself at any given moment.

I have a lot of work to do myself: still working on the letting go of expectations, restraining the urge to jump in or get too involved at a crisis point and so on. I *really* need to work on my validating skills too. It is a learning curve for us both.

I've greatly appreciated reading the tips and comments here and will be checking into any updates to this thread with keen interest.

[Lollypop]

What a great thread!

I used to be so over the top in my encouragement. Doh!

I so agree with paying attention (and providing support) when there is NOT a problem.  

This is the root of a better relationship. It’s how I warmed son28 up. This approach creates an environment, a nurturing space, that feels good. I used to think of him as a delicate orchid that needs just the right conditions to grow. The more they feel safe, the more calm they are and trust builds. I got light as a fairy - not “too” anything other than warm and non judgmental.

My tip: I stopped asking questions. I let him share at his speed. I made sure I focussed on him but lightly. If I failed I’d do a re-do a few days later.  I love re-dos as he saw/felt my reflection and acted as a gentle reinforcement “it’s ok, whatever happens, it’s ok”.

LP

[DharmaGate]

Hello  

Sorry all, i got lost for a bit, had to go looking for this thread. I had an old iphone and ipad that was not interfacing here and was losing everything i typed, along with trying to learn a bunch new stuff yeeks, on google chrome, now it working.

Lollipop! You are such a bright ray here, thank you!  I am thinking there are stages to our relationship repair with kids.  I am in the light as a feather stage you coined, thank u.

Daughter is going to work everyday.  She is being pretty upfront and honest about the challenges and rewards.  Like me, i think this last go around of symptoms really scared us all, her husband too.  So i am making myself available by text or phone call for what i used think were small things, i am training myself to stick with the topic she brings up, my early attempt at validation!

Smallbluething, Did your daughter start her class in age care?  How is it going?  

“What happened then was that she would fail a test on a unit and be too ashamed/embarrassed/afraid of disappointing us to say anything…... But instead she was silent and swept the problem under the carpet.”

I am realizing this is a bigger problem with my daughter than i thought.  I am realizing i really need to check my perceptions of what is going on with her.  Shame does seem to be a driving force.

“I am trying to make sure she has enough support this time so she won't get overwhelmed

- “ i just texted my daughter this morning along this line, she was saying they were supportive during training yesterday and i said yes supportive environments don't necessarily take away the fear and anxiety but at least they are not making it worse, creating more hurdles.

“One thing I've been working on is letting go of my own expectations for her, but I also want to try to get *her* to let go of worries about meeting my expectations and her own, and to just focus on doing the best she can for herself at any given moment.”  

This is so beautiful. I realized the same and said i dont need you to do or be anything for me now, i am ok. sadly, probably was not always the case. I think this is the one area i can say for sure daughter and i have made progress. After really SEEING, accepting, acknowledging her level of anxiety, i have been telling her things i messed up with on raising her.  She gets that for now just glad she is alive.

“I have a lot of work to do myself: still working on the letting go of expectations, restraining the urge to jump in or get too involved at a crisis point and so on. I *really* need to work on my validating skills too. It is a learning curve for us both.”

You summed up this stage perfectly... .Me too! I ordered a book on Validation that was recommended on this website, i am really having trouble with the question part of validation in life and on the board. It feels intrusive, been a “me too” kind of person.  But not giving up on validating questions until i thoroughly understand and become proficient, and by then, i will probably have seen that they work.

Your daughter is really fortunate that your helping with accommodations with learning disabilities, i have them and they did not recognize it till way late in life.  After testing they said you are extremely smart, but can appear not so to others, and you are smart enough to realize . She is lucky to have a mama who gets it.  Please keep us posted

Peace  

[livednlearned]

I ordered a book on Validation that was recommended on this website, i am really having trouble with the question part of validation in life and on the board. It feels intrusive, been a “me too” kind of person.

Do you feel comfortable sharing examples of how you used validating questions in your life?

Maybe we can walk with you and share how we are grappling with these same skills.

[smallbluething]

Smallbluething, Did your daughter start her class in age care?  How is it going?

She starts next week - keeping my fingers crossed that she gets off to an reasonable start but also trying not to let expectations etc get a hold of me ! A tricky line to draw sometimes!

It seems we're going through a lot of similar stuff DharmaGate :-) Hopefully we'll both figure our way through it all with our sanity intact!

[DharmaGate]

It seems we're going through a lot of similar stuff DharmaGate :-) Hopefully we'll both figure our way through it all with our sanity intact!

amen to that!

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[DharmaGate]

lived and learned,

Do you feel comfortable sharing examples of how you used validating questions in your life?

Maybe we can walk with you and share how we are grappling with these same skills.

That would be awesome, thank u! i will post tomorrow got a bunch going on right now. need to get off line. love your little guy there.  

[DharmaGate]

will come back to this for sure, it is so important, will make my life a lot richer if i can learn a style of communicating with validation. Need to rest today and be available to my daughter.  be back tomorrow.  any other parents jump in if you want free coaching!

[DharmaGate]

Ok this is good having validation on my radar.  Spending a lot of time listening each night, like two hours, while daughter (undiadianosed, BPD traits 35) processes new job.  I am very glad to have this opportunity as i feel it is a redo of when she was a teenager and i was really busy going to work and school,  being single mom and i minimized the importance of talking about everyday stuff.  I thought it had to be “really important” to warrant long conversations about everyday stuff.  I now see this stuff is really important and glad to get another chance.  

It was going well, she mostly likes that i listen without a whole lot of commenting,  i did see a couple of times when she was hesitating and i paraphrased, she seemed to like that i think i can do that more.  

She started talking about girl at new job who she describes as knowing everything, dressing her down, making her feel stupid. She talked about feeling guilty for not inviting her to sit with them, but it is hard when she is mean. She started hedging, saying she knows she should be understanding (i often would point out other people's point of view, need to be inclusive ect., invalidating her feelings)

I did give some advice and then realized and stopped and said, it is really hard to be understanding of people when they are making you feel stupid.  She said yea you think? Thats good to hear.  Then devolved into me giving more of my thoughts and advice. Yuck!  I did  ask some questions about the girl and the situation, she says she was home schooled, very socially awkward, sat alone in front row during presidents presentation.  Their interaction in the bathroom, the training scenario she felt went poorly. ect.    So we will probably resume this discussion tomorrow night.  

I could use ideas on how to end conversations, she will keep talking till i end them most of the time, which is usually over an hour.  It does feel like she is a little sad every time i need to end them, but i get where i can not think, exhausted!  i think she might go on forever if i could and i feel a little quilty when i need to go.

Not sure if this is what you meant livedandlearned but i will keep writing our conversations and examples, will help me process.   hopefully increasing validating statements.

[Music Ace]

I could use ideas on how to end conversations, she will keep talking till i end them most of the time, which is usually over an hour.  It does feel like she is a little sad every time i need to end them, but i get where i can not think, exhausted!  i think she might go on forever if i could and i feel a little guilty when i need to go.

Just a quick pop in, DG, so hopefully I can do this suggestion/response justice - but still quickly.  NOT MY FORTE!

I, too, struggle to end conversations.  I feel like I always have to end, or have a final comment.  My unBPD28 does too.  Makes for LONG, unnecessary conversations .  So this is what I've taken to doing.  Essentially, I set a 'boundary', but for both of us.  Since our means of communication is texting, it does make ending 'easier', but still not guilt free.  I've also used it at work to help me move along.

At the beginning (and I think at the beginning is kinda important, so it doesn't look like you're running away mid stream) of an anticipated 'long' conversation, where I KNOW, I'm not going to want to hear about things for the next 4 hours (and yes, that can happen in my world) ... .I let her know, right up front, how long I have available.  BUT, here's the kicker, I MUST respect that end of conversation time too - hence the boundary reference.  She knows my triggers and if she can say something, then I can't help myself but stay engaged or comment or (heaven forbid) offer 'advice'.

So ... .here's a scenario ... .

unBPD28 "Jay is playing tonight, but I'm not in the city, I so love Jay ... ."  (this is likely just a random text out of the blue)

ME "HI! You do love Jay - you always get so excited when he has the long sets too. I've got to head out the door/I've got to jump in the shower/I've got to do some homework, etc. shortly, but I've got 30 minutes before then.  So tell me more about what's going on."

unBPD28 "OK ... .blah, blah, blah" ... .she will NEVER remember when 30 minutes are up ... .not her concern.

ME "So, you might get ... .blah, blah, blah.  That's cool.  That shower is calling me in 5 minutes, so I don't want to seem rude if I end our conversation suddenly and I'm glad you got to Jay update me.  I'm heading out for a coffee with Dad/I'm going to work/I'm going to aim to get the dishes done ... .etc"

unBPD28 "you don't take quick showers, either" then "Jay ... .blah blah blah"

ME ... .IN exactly 5 minutes "It's been fun chatting and hearing your stories. Love you lots.  Gotta go unstink the Mom.  I'll look forward to the update after you make it into the city."

AND THEN I LEAVE!  Like I seriously don't check.  I force myself not to look for at least 30 minutes (sometimes, she can tell if I've read things). 

Hope this 'idea' helps or spurs something that might work for you.

G'night from the Great White North with promises of -25oC (windchill -35 over the next couple of days - yippee!)

Ace

[DharmaGate]

Just a quick pop in, DG, so hopefully I can do this suggestion/response justice - but still quickly.  NOT MY FORTE!

 To totally invalidate you, i believe this just might be your forte!  hehe  

Music Ace, this will work, thank goodness you stopped while you were so busy, totally get that, and what a lesson your taking the time. This has solved a huge trigger one that not addressed was leading to bigger problems to solve and then no one gets their needs met.  I was having flashbacks to being a totally overwhelmed single mom at 35 going to college and working, with a 17 year old getting ready to go away to college.  All over not knowing how to end a conversation! Skills work!

I am going to use this time limit stuff on other areas of my life too, like morning meditation/contemplation 1 hour, this board two hours, daughter two hours, dog 1 hour, dog was more like 3 hours

The time limit moves things to another marker of when to stop other than i am exhausted, overwhelmed, triggered  and need to get away. My other daughter and i have talked about our need to learn and practice social skills.  Told her i need some other way than in the middle of a conversation, i gotta go! We have been practicing so she will be greatly relieved to have some structure.  Bless you ace

undd35,she totally can understand the time thing and then can structure what she wants to talk about within that time frame, i had to look up quiet borderline symptoms as WendyDarling talks about this with her daughter, and that is how my daughter is she will respect something but then internalize it in ways unintended, stuff it and potentially do self harm. I can see where it time limits could be received differently when a person copes differently, like yelling.

Boy learning to communicate differently brings up all the issues, unbeliavable.  My daughter texted me this morning
“And wanted to say it means the world to me that being available to …. and i is a priority, it is helping me so much. Thx u Thx u xoxox “

Ace i hope you have fun with your students today and you all don't freeze to death! Cant thank you enough.

[livednlearned]

It sounds like you're doing great with validation, DG. It's ok to backslide, and it's ok to repair and recover if things go off the rails. You're trying to create a validating environment more than *winning* at validation 24/7.  

If you want to repair mid-conversation and it feels natural to you, it's ok to say something like, "Listen to me! It must be my anxiety talking. Sometimes I offer advice because it makes me feel _________. What were you saying about _______?"

Sometimes learning skills like setting limits with a conversation feels easier when we practice with strangers, acquaintances, friends, other family members first.

It's also ok to tackle this gently, slowly, not taking on too much change at once. With SD21, when she senses a new boundary, she seems to regress, acting more like she's anywhere between ages 2-8 than 21. She will try all manner of ways to test the boundary, trying to find whether it's real or not. (she's more quiet BPD too, so yelling isn't her thing)

Going slowly allows you to get used to sitting with any emotions that may come up for you if (when) she challenges those boundaries.

[DharmaGate]

Livedandlearned, you are so right on, woke up this morning thinking, ok this is going to be like learning to ski, i am going to fall, get right back up and when rested, try again. 

"Listen to me! It must be my anxiety talking. Sometimes I offer advice because it makes me feel _________. What were you saying about _______?"   

this is great

going slowly, sitting with emotions is excellent advice. 

thank u 

[Music Ace]

Might just be my FORTE ... . ... .well played DharmaGate ... .well played.

And thanks for your positive comments. 'Twas needed today.

Ace