She told the pastor what happened and he offered marital counseling - Part 2

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

Part 1 is here https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=333799

Just sat for an hour 1v1 with Pastor P, I used the affememtioned checklist, it was all good, I feel a bit better (hope)... .got to roll for now, will come back later tonight and give the synopses of mine and the Pastors talk.

Thank you all for your support, Red5

[Red5]

Part 1 is here https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=333799

Just sat for an hour 1v1 with Pastor P, I used the affememtioned checklist, it was all good, I feel a bit better (hope)... .got to roll for now, will come back later tonight and give the synopses of mine and the Pastors talk.

Thank you all for your support, Red5

[formflier]

Looking forward to the debrief.

Any surprises?

FF

[AskingWhy]

 Yes, Red, keep us posted.  

[Red5]

So I went and met with our Pastor, yesterday afternoon, one hour, privately… it went well, and I did pretty well sticking to the checklist I made from FF suggestions.

This is how it went, Pastor P welcomed me into his office, offered me a cup of coffee, and we sat down, he asked me so “how can I help you Red”, I responded, “I guess you know what has happened between “Q” (my wife’s name) and I”… “and I want to thank you for calling “Q” and offering your pastoral marital counseling”… he responds, “well that’s what I’m here for Red, I want to help you and “Q”, and I want to tell you up front, that I believe that all marriages can be saved, through the grace of God”, “but it takes both of you, neither can do this by yourselves”, .“can you tell me what has happened to cause the two of you to separate?”.

So I started, “well, she called me on Friday, and told me that you’d called her, and that she had “I told him what happened”…  “it’s none of my business what was discussed, but I want you to know up front that I will take full responsibility for my 50% of the marriage troubles”… I continued, “this is what happened, there was an incident with “J” (my 32 yr old autistic son), this incident resulted in a physical altercation in which there was hitting, and this of course resulted in a fight between myself and her, and then resultant… I told her we could not live together under these circumstances, and so she moved out”… “I also told him that we have had a marriage fraught with verbal, and as well emotional, and even sometimes physical abusive behaviors”.

*Pastor P, and "J" are very well acquainted, they see each other every Sunday morning, and sometimes even around town from time to time… certainly not strangers,

He asked, “do you want to heal this marriage relationship Red”… I responded, “yes Pastor I do”.

I continued, “I have made a big mess of this, I’ve not been the husband I should have been, and I’ve failed her, I’ve failed her when she needed me the most, I lost my ability to communicate, I let pride and a just plain stubborn and defensive attitude rule my emotions, and I need to take responsibility for this”.

The Pastor then took the lead, “ok, I would like to help, and yes, I did speak to “Q”, and we actually talked for quite some time, and she did tell me what had happened, and I want to share with you Red, that she also said, that she did not want to lose the marriage”.

He continued, “Red, you have a lot on your plate, with both “J” and “Q” living all under the same roof, I too have a special needs daughter, so I know what you may be dealing with on a daily basis”… he then asked me to give him some “metrics”… as in how many children we had, their ages, and our own two previous marital histories, and as well a short summation of our own eleven years together, eight of which, married… I gave him all of this information.

Note: I stayed away from medical, mental stuff… but I did ask about protocol,

He told me that he has been doing this a long time, for well over thirty years… he said something to the effect, “I’ve had all kinds of relationship dynamics in my office”, “you and “Q” are certainly not the first to come to me for help… this marriage can be saved Red, but you both are going to have to work hard, as there has been a lot of damage done, you both are going to have to let go of your anger, and add to this what has happened with “J”, basically you two are going to have to start over, this has gotten to the point of separation, which is the first step in divorce, so I don’t think she can just ,move back in tomorrow, or even next week, next month… there is going to be a lot of hard work that you two are going to have to commit too, it won’t be easy, but it can be done Red”… “have faith that it is possible”.

He went on to say… this is where it got very interesting to me (hopeful)… “Red, I’ve had all kinds of human relationship emotions, and relationships dynamics sitting here in my office, I’ve seen all kinds of mental and emotional problems, from schizophrenic, to bi-polar, to manic depression, to suicidal… I have a basic understanding, a laymen’s understanding, I’ve read portions of the “DSM” (yeah he said DSM), and I do my best to help those who come here and sit on my couch for not only marital, but a whole host of life, personality, family, and relationship issues…, but I’m not a doctor, or a psychologist/physiatrist, I am a Pastor, so if it comes to the point of the issues being out of my “paygrade”, then I think it’s best to encourage higher therapy, in that we cannot hope to solve martial problems of any degree, if there are underlying mental health issues that may prevent normal reasoning, and communication between two or more people (wow)… so if in this scenario, it becomes evident through our counseling process, that this may be the case, on either of your part, or parts of the relationship, then this is what my protocol will be, we can’t fix things here that need a higher adjustment at another level, it isn’t fair to anyone, we want healing and compassion to take place in martial counseling, so if one or the other participant can’t do that right now, due to these types of mental, or else emotional issues, then we need to identify this as it becomes evident, and with love, and grace… so that in the end, we can accomplish what we perceive is the will of God, as we understand it, and what we find that is right in his word, do you understand this Red”… I nodded my head,

I was a bit shocked to hear this, right off the rail, I even teared up some, when I realized the ramifications of what could happen… here, as he was telling me this.

The meeting continued… I told him that I would be absolutely open to marital counseling, and that I loved her very much, and wanted to attempt to save the marriage, even after all that had happened over the last eight years of our marriage… and that I understood the hard work that was ahead, he said that it was probably best, if she does agree, that we should meet separately with him, and then at some point, perhaps together, if she agrees to go forward at all, this is still an unknown at this time, but she did say to me over the phone that morning… that he had offered his pastoral marital counseling and help, I do not believe that she would have even mentioned it, or else called me at work, if she did not want this to be under my own consideration?

Pastor P went on to say that he was glad that she was coming back to Church, ie’ our agreement on the two different services, we would attend so as to not see each other.

I said a few other things, in that I understood her need to feel safe, validated, and not triggered here in this Church, and I wanted to ensure that she was indeed safe, validated, welcomed, and not triggered, and that I would do everything I could to ensure this.

*At this point, I believe that he may very well know what I am dealing with (even though undiagnosed), as if it was “unsaid”, but perhaps understood between us (again, wow).

He wants me to call her, or email her, and tell her of the meeting, and my agreement, and that I was willing to interact in marital counseling with Pastor P, he said he would call her back in a few days.

He said this won’t be easy, after what I had shared, and I shared quite a bit, and I took a lot of responsibility… I did say that she has always been very “angry” in the relationship  ... and I told him about my first wife, and the abuse that she suffered as a child, and that I believe that this is what wrecked that marriage in the end, and that I had indeed made “comparisons” over the years that myself and “Q” had been married, as in “looking for answers” as to the presenting negative relationship dynamics... .he seemed to understand this.

We talked about the role of the Husband in a marriage, and the role of a Wife, we talked about the “four horsemen” of a failing marriage/relationship (his words)… we talked about how myself and “Q” would have to basically start over, ie’ dating again… and that she indeed has to understand, just as it was when we began, that my autistic Son is always going to be a part of my life, my responsibility, and that she will also be part of this should we continue to stay together… “this is a forefront issue obviously” he said… he again repeated the “full plate” comment to me…

He asked me what did I need to change about myself, I said, “Pastor, I have forgotten my vows to her, and I have forsaken my vows to her, I let my emotions go negative, cold, unfeeling, out of some kind of self-defensive reaction… I emotionally abandoned her when she needed me the most, after she was diagnosed with cancer… I failed to see her for who she really was actually early on, I was blind to see that she was scared, and when she reacted, the best way she knew to, albeit negativley… instead of absorbing it, and trying to help her, I pushed her away when she acted angrily towards me”… (again the unsaid being said)… he nodded his head.

… I continued, “Pastor, I’ve read a lot too, for well over two-years now… trying to understand why we were having such a hard time at getting along in the marriage, over the first five and a half… to six-year period… and I’ve read a lot about ‘cognitive ability”, ‘mindfulness’, and controlling inner anger, controlling my increasing maladaptive behaviors/reactions on my own part… being able to ‘not react’ in a negative way, I want to be able to do this better, so that if me and “Q’ do reconcile, I will be in a better place to support her (mindful)… I added empathy, instead of apathy as well, must have never ending empathy, as this is what we read in the scriptures, love your fellow man… ie’ wife, no matter what.
Pastor nodded his head again…

We talked about her cancer diagnoses, and what all that means as well, which is another forefront issue as well, of monumental proportion.

So that’s about all I can remember right now, I think it went well, so she said to the Pastor, “I don’t want to lose this marriage”… his words,

So an hour had passed, and it was time to go, Pastor P shook my hand, told me to contact her and tell her of our meeting and as well agreement, and said to call him back in a few days, and he said, don't go anywhere with "J" now, we all love him very much, he is very special to us all, as well "Q" and you too Red, and want you all to stay here with us… I bid farewell, "God Bless", and said "thank you Pastor", and I left…

A few questions to myself, “will she really agree to pastoral marital counseling, will she do this for her, will she do this with me, will she do this for us”… *she has to lead, or I will scare her away*… “is the pastor aware of anything “medical/psychological” already (must remain unsaid)”… “what should I say in this email back to her in regards to mine and the Pastors meeting”… “what does this all really mean, or am I jumping the shark here”… "she did go to the trouble of actually calling me, when a simple text, or email would have sufficed"…

My head is spinning, is this answered prayer?

I had a thought yesterday, sometimes it has to be completely destroyed, before you can rebuild it… I certainly have been “taken down a couple of pegs”… which is a good thing, my thought process was completely wrong, as well my emotions to cope, handle this…

I gave up two years ago… and she knew it : (

Thanks for listening,

Thoughts?

Red5

[AskingWhy]

Red, thank you for sharing this.     

I am sure you pastor knows the dynamics of your W's BPD, and knows she is not well in the mental health sense.  If he is referencing the DSM, it's a good sign.

My uBPD H is so terrified of himself that he will even split God black.  One moment, he will be tearing up over the death of his M and his faith that she is with God, and in the next breath he will rage (at me, of course) and deny the existence of God.  It really is very sad.  We don't attend a church so we don't have a pastor for an ally.  Talking about "faking" it as BPDs do, H will visit his adult D and SIL and attend their church, sit in the pews and, for the time of the service, actually believe in God.  A few hours late, H will be angry at me for some petty thing (projected rage felt toward his FOO and F) and scream, "There is no God!"

If I make the appeal to have counseling (I no longer do), H will say, "Oh, we tried that and you did not want to listen to the T."  (H manipulated the T and she side with him.  BPDs can triangulate with Ts.)

In my opinion, I think you took more than your share of the blame as what your W did to J was unpardonable--period.  Parents have a duty to protect their children, and J is literally a child.  He is not an "adult" and able to comprehend the illness your W has and defend himself like a "grown man."  (My own uBPD H, in his enmeshment with his adult children, allowed them to emotionally abuse me and, in one case, threaten me with bodily harm.  He saw it and literally walked into another room, failing to protect me and parent his own child.  What a coward!)

As long as two people, though, want to live together as a married couple, there is hope.  Your W appears to want to make things work, but her BPD is in the way.  In light of her physical illness (cancer), I can see your giving a little extra compassion and charity.  Love is not something you can easily walk away from.

Thank you again, Red, for the update.  I hope the counseling gave you some comfort and a new set of strategies.  I am praying for you and your wife, but also J, in healing your family.  

 

[Skip]

I gave up two years ago … and she knew it.

Many of us did, also, Red. Learn from the past. Even when we challenged you, you would not budge. And when you two split, you started searching for information and you went to for the worst of the worst junk psychology and tried to encourage others to embrace it. You even tangled with the mods.

If you are serious, move to the "Saving/Bettering Board" and order this book today:

Loving Someone with Borderline Personality Disorder Author: Shari Y. Manning, PhD Publisher: The Guilford Press; 1 edition (August 15, 2011) Paperback: 253 pages ISBN-10: 1593856075 ISBN-13: 978-1593856076

A few questions to myself, “will she really agree to pastoral marital counseling, will she do this for her, will she do this with me, will she do this for us” … *she has to lead, or I will scare her away* …

You have to lead bu listening and letting her first get her concerns be addressed in counseling - only then will she listen to you. Most marriage couselling fails - it would be very helpful to read "Gottman" to find a way to increase your odds.

“what does this all really mean, or am I jumping the shark here” … "she did go to the trouble of actually calling me, when a simple text, or email would have sufficed" …

Bettering/Saving Board... .

I am sure you pastor knows the dynamics of your W's BPD, and knows she is not well in the mental health sense.  If he is referencing the DSM, it's a good sign.

I would not read this into what the Pastor said at all... .it's an assumption that could take you on a very wrong path. I think he said, if the two of you are "in bounds" he can work with you, if not, he will help you find someone else.

[Lucky Jim]

Hey Red5, Thanks for bringing us up-to-speed on your meeting.  I don't see any particular down side at this point to pastoral marital counseling.  My only suggestion would be to avoid projection about how things will play out.  Maybe counseling will help; maybe not; but you'll never know until you try.  That she is willing to participate in the process sounds encouraging to me.  I think you'll find out pretty quickly if there is something to build on, or not.

LuckyJim

[Cat Familiar]

Hey Red,  Your pastor sounds awesome!     Between him and your T, you've got some real good guys who've got your back.

[empath]

It sounds like Pastor P has some experience and knowledge about working with folks and isn't opposed to referring them to licensed mental health professionals if needed. I think it's a good sign that he's familiar with the DSM and Gottman's work. Mental/emotional health issues can definitely get in the way of communication issues. It also doesn't sound like Pastor is pushing to get y'all back in the same house quickly. Did you get a sense that he was willing to talk with you each individually before having joint sessions?

You sound a bit more hopeful as a result of the meeting.

When I had to make a decision about where I would worship a little over 3 years ago (I had exhausted the avenues for help in the church where both h and I attended), I decided to return to our former church which had a deacon who was a LPC and who was aware of our history. It was helpful to have someone who had been part of our history and had seen our family regularly for years.

[formflier]

Hey Red 5

I'm really happy for you that you seem to have an experienced pastor that is humble about his skills.  One that sees licensed mental health professionals as an extension of their skills rather than a group to fight with or a group to be shunned.

There is an added bonus that there is some personal history with special needs.

Nothing in your post gave me pause or any reason to caution you against moving forward.

Resist the challenge of overthinking BPD... such as should you text, call, email and or what it means if they do that to you.  The best thing you can do is double and triple down on things that can help you chill out.

A chilled Red 5 will be much more likely to be a good listener... .will be able to pause  and reflect more before speaking... .and will be able to sort through a lot of chaff and flares to figure out what is important, what needs to be validated.

I would suggest calling her up and give her a quick update. 

I would also suggest doing some thinking about your "critical areas".  Especially if you believe you have limited ability to compromise in an area.  Important to think those through with your T so you have an idea of how to address them/state your case succinctly when/if they come up.

The relationship between your wife and son is one that has been hard to decipher for me, because it seems she is sometimes ignoring his special needs and/or going against your wishes. 

Anyway... .one day at a time.  I'm trying to think of places in the military that would be helpful analogies for listening for themes/vice listening for details.  Most military guys are very detail oriented... .that often hurts us with a pwBPD.  Best to understand and address a theme.

FF

[Cat Familiar]

Very good suggestions from formflier

[formflier]

The relationship between your wife and son is one that has been hard to decipher for me, because it seems she is sometimes ignoring his special needs and/or going against your wishes. 
 

This is similar to what I face in my relationship, although I get the vibe that you faced it more often.

Similar... .not exact.

So... .I'm 100% P&T through the VA and also on SSDI.   I'm not aware of any other agency or group out there that declares people disabled and not able to work full time... .  My point being that those with medical degrees and experience are all in agreement that I have issues.

I'm also in several programs where I'm trying to improve and there has been some positive movement.

As a practical matter I totally agree with peoples observations that somedays I don't "seem" disabled at all.  (I doubt there are days when anyone would doubt the special needs category of Red 5s son.  Red... .is he consistent in the way he "presents" to the world?)

There are other days where I struggle with standing up straight or being able to sit at a desk.  (I had to leave class early a couple weeks ago)

So... .I'm saying all this to say I can empathize somewhat with my wife that she can be confused or that my issues are hard to understand, since they aren't consistent.

OK... enough about me but I hope this sets up my point.

I'm doubting that Red 5s son gives of confusing signals or has changed much during the course of Reds rs with his wife.  His son seems to get the care and programs he needs so I'm assuming there has been plenty of information about "this works well for Red's son" and plenty of information about what doesn't work well.

Red 5... .am I tracking correctly?

So... .I have a hard time empathizing with anyone that would treat a special needs person the way she has.  Yet she continued and even seemed to ramp up her behavior in the face of it obviously not working and her being aware of "expert opinions" that her methods are "less than ideal".

Red 5... .my point for you is to clearly articulate and think through the details of what wasn't working with your special needs son and your wife. 

At some point you are going to need to hear why she thought those things were good ideas, especially in the face of expert opinions saying otherwise.

At some point there is going to have to be ownership that following expert opinions is the ONLY way forward.

How would the world look at it if you removed half of her cancer drugs because you thought it better.  Not exactly the same thing... .but I think you get the point.

FF

[Red5]

Red 5... .am I tracking correctly?

You are Formflier, you are tracking… you "have the ball".

I'll come back later and write more, as I'm at my desk working, yes, I too have a VA rating (80%)… and I too seem normal and "ok" most of the time, but prolonged standing, and or physical exertion, say sustained "chainsaw ops" will do me in, and sometimes it takes days/weeks to recover…

Yesterday, we were in the back of the KC-130J Herc again, and when I went to leave, I chose the starboard "derringer door " to exit, which is about three feet off the ground, and when I hit the ground, on my two feet… I knew I should have taken the crew door instead... .by back still hurts.

Yes, my Son presents the exact same in behavior, sustained, steady, predictable… no surprises, for me anyway, or else his teachers, instructors, or his current mentor, whom W hates by the way : (

… 'autism', and mild mental retardation, "developmentally delayed" at age an five-six-seven capability, mental ability(?)… think the "Arnie Grape" character in the older movie, "What's Eating Gilbert Grape"… that's my Son almost exactly, to a "t"... .in a grown mans body.

Yes, you are also correct in the statement…

At some point there is going to have to be ownership that following expert opinions is the ONLY way forward.

I've a lot to sort out, I've certainly made a mess of things…

ok, back to work now… more later : )

Thanks Formflier, and everyone for listening!

Red5

[formflier]

OK... .glad we are talking about the situation accurately. 

My purpose is not to condemn anyone or suggest that anyone is not redeemable.   

Part of problem solving is understanding who can do/solve what. 

Be careful of taking too much ownership of "making a mess of things".  I use the term/phrase... "I didn't bring my best to (fill in the blank)."

Good to talk about this stuff here and with your T.  Ahead of any joint counseling.

I would expect emotions to be high during MC, so you want to be clear about what is "negotiable" ahead of time and what is not.

Even if a suggestion is made for something "non-negotiable"... don't say yes or no.  Confirm understanding of the idea and let everyone know you need to think it through.

FF

[empath]

I'm doubting that Red 5s son gives of confusing signals or has changed much during the course of Reds rs with his wife.  His son seems to get the care and programs he needs so I'm assuming there has been plenty of information about "this works well for Red's son" and plenty of information about what doesn't work well.

Red 5... .am I tracking correctly?

So... .I have a hard time empathizing with anyone that would treat a special needs person the way she has.  Yet she continued and even seemed to ramp up her behavior in the face of it obviously not working and her being aware of "expert opinions" that her methods are "less than ideal".

My gd1 has special needs (she has some medical 'complications'), too, with a team of specialists and doctors as well as her mom and dad to figure out what is best for her. There are people who will look at her and say things to her parents about how to parent better. As if her needs would just disappear with "good parenting". When I go to help them, usually my son is at home to kind of make sure things go okay.

My point is that this is different from what other people's families look like and how their lives operate and work well. If someone were to come in and insist my gd1 do something that works for most kids, it could create an unsafe situation and cause harm to her.

I've also had family members disregard my explicit instructions about one of my children and cause an illness on multiple occasions. They regularly disrespected those instructions verbally. They didn't get to care for that child without my presence.

[Red5]

(Update)... .Pastor P texted me today,

I did have a phone conversation with ”Q” (Red5W), she indicated that she was willing to think about a one on one visit with me but not ready to schedule it. I will be calling her again to move things hopefully.  Keep praying. I’ll let you know.

Fingers crossed,

Thanks for listening... .Red5

[Cat Familiar]

What a great pastor! Hope she's open to talking with him.