Question from kiwigals hubby

[kiwigal]

When we hold a boundary with my uBPD mother, or in particular, kiwigal does (my wife.. my mother often questions this with me, playing ignorance.

For example, we didn't join in at Christmas time; we'd tried to communicate our needs and feelings but my uBPD mother acts like my wife doesn't have needs. We decided we weren't going to put ourselves through it, and communicated to them that we weren't coming because amongst difficulties, we had Kiwigals mum sick (which was true).

My mother then came back to me and said "was it really that (mum) was sick or was there something else?"
When I explained that there are difficulties.. she sees it as an invite for her input and plays the victim and makes my wife look like she is being difficult, saying unkind things about her.

The dilemma I have is; if I am honest and say "no things aren't okay", it invites unwelcome input rather than insight. Yet we also don't want to like and say "oh its fine".

My wife and I agree that she shouldn't feel she needs to attend any family functions while they treat her like they do. But I know my mother will ask me "Oh is everything okay with (Kiwigal?)" and then act surprised, angry, confused etc, if I say "well actually no"

How do you communicate this kind of boundary to a BPD without inviting their input or response?

[HappyChappy]

S.E.T.  Sympathy, Empathy and Truth. Is one way. So lots of “there, theres” and “I know”, your best customer care face on. There is no easy way, it would be impossible to stop my BPD coming back on anything. That lost look you mention, is probably because few people have dare put up boundaries, and she thinks she’s wonderful so why on earth would anyone want to. Another thing to take on board s she is unlikely to change unless it suites her.

Another way to go is medium chill, this is where you never rise to her triggers, but you don’t ignore her. That’s avoidance in a way, but it has its place. There are other approaches, but I’ll let others jump  in with those. If your wife is not being treated well, of course you have no obligation to attend. My BPD ignored my son’s birthday, saying he needed to come and see her and apologies. Considering he got spanked last time he was there, I said “Why not try being nice to him so he wants to come.” she hit the roof. I though she might, but I’m not making him go cap in hand, just gave him the money. Best of luck. Its normal for a BPD to attack anything that prevents them from getting what they want, and boundaries prevent them.

[GaGrl]

In terms of SET, what would be the Truth statement regarding your wife's needs? Have you or your wife been specific with your mother about that?  Has anyone, ever? What was her reaction?

I know about the situation with your SIL /interference with discipline and your MOM at the time of a difficult childbirth. How would you put an overall "label" to this? Is it respect for your marriage and your family decisions -- that is, without challenge of derision?I

It would be helpful to know what behavior you and your wife anticipate might occur, that the two of you are not willing to let yourselves in for? We could then work with a really good SET that you could repeat with slight variations as needed. Eventually, the message might sink in that they won't see your wife at family functions unless she is respected.

[Panda39]

I wanted to point out that I see attempts at triangulation on your mother's part in this situation.  You and your wife set a boundary and your mom goes into victim mode, making your wife the persecutor, and expecting you to be the rescuer...creating pressure on you in particular and push back against the boundary you and your wife have created.  We all can play different roles on the triangle but it's better when we can just stay off it. 

More on the Karpman Triangle...
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=108440.0

SET is a good suggestion...a constructive way to say what you need to say.  Another tool is to not JADE (Justify, Argue, Defend, Explain) When questioned about why you didn't come to Christmas, what if you just said...we've just decided not to come this year...rather than Justifying it with your wife's mother's illness.  It would have been the truth and would have left her little to argue about.  You and your wife made the decision not to come...period.  It is okay to say no...and no just means no.  When we JADE that tends to open us up to more conflict just as it did in your situation.

More on JADE...
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=139972.0

Link to more on SET (Support, Empathy Truth)(while I'm at it   I like Gagrl's suggestion to work on some SET for different scenarios...
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=143695.0

Sorry to bombard you with links, read at your leisure...I have just found so much of the information here helpful that I really like to share it.

Hang in there,
Panda39

[kiwigal]

S.E.T.  Sympathy, Empathy and Truth. Is one way. So lots of “there, theres” and “I know”, your best customer care face on. There is no easy way, it would be impossible to stop my BPD coming back on anything. That lost look you mention, is probably because few people have dare put up boundaries, and she thinks she’s wonderful so why on earth would anyone want to. Another thing to take on board s she is unlikely to change unless it suites her.

Another way to go is medium chill, this is where you never rise to her triggers, but you don’t ignore her. That’s avoidance in a way, but it has its place. There are other approaches, but I’ll let others jump  in with those. If your wife is not being treated well, of course you have no obligation to attend. My BPD ignored my son’s birthday, saying he needed to come and see her and apologies. Considering he got spanked last time he was there, I said “Why not try being nice to him so he wants to come.” she hit the roof. I though she might, but I’m not making him go cap in hand, just gave him the money. Best of luck. Its normal for a BPD to attack anything that prevents them from getting what they want, and boundaries prevent them.

This sounds familiar. When I told my mum we weren't coming for Christmas, one year, she hit the roof and said "well let's just make this easy for you, you're not invited". It was embarrassing for me. SET sounds good.

[kiwigal]

In terms of SET, what would be the Truth statement regarding your wife's needs? Have you or your wife been specific with your mother about that?  Has anyone, ever? What was her reaction?

I know about the situation with your SIL /interference with discipline and your MOM at the time of a difficult childbirth. How would you put an overall "label" to this? Is it respect for your marriage and your family decisions -- that is, without challenge of derision?I

It would be helpful to know what behavior you and your wife anticipate might occur, that the two of you are not willing to let yourselves in for? We could then work with a really good SET that you could repeat with slight variations as needed. Eventually, the message might sink in that they won't see your wife at family functions unless she is respected.

A summary of the truth (SET) would be "you need to respect my wife's needs and feelings, and take them seriously, if you want to be see her at family functions".
They treat her like an outsider in the family.
My wife's needs come last, they judge her and discuss her amongst themselves. Kiwigal has tried confronting them. She has tried inviting them into discussion stating she would like to communicate her needs and feelings (and hear theirs), but my mothers reaction is that she acts like her own issues are far greater and that my wife's needs are ridiculous. She always is "too tired, broken, busy, unsure what Kiwigal is going on about" etc.
Ive spoken up for her also, but she doesn't hear it. She cant apologise, and never has.

Im not afraid to say the right thing to my her, but it's knowing the right thing to say - without engaging in the game and becoming cornered in the drama.

Thanks for your input too. Kiwigal and I both appreciate it.

[kiwigal]

I wanted to point out that I see attempts at triangulation on your mother's part in this situation.  You and your wife set a boundary and your mom goes into victim mode, making your wife the persecutor, and expecting you to be the rescuer...creating pressure on you in particular and push back against the boundary you and your wife have created.  We all can play different roles on the triangle but it's better when we can just stay off it. 

More on the Karpman Triangle...
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=108440.0

SET is a good suggestion...a constructive way to say what you need to say.  Another tool is to not JADE (Justify, Argue, Defend, Explain) When questioned about why you didn't come to Christmas, what if you just said...we've just decided not to come this year...rather than Justifying it with your wife's mother's illness.  It would have been the truth and would have left her little to argue about.  You and your wife made the decision not to come...period.  It is okay to say no...and no just means no.  When we JADE that tends to open us up to more conflict just as it did in your situation.

More on JADE...
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=139972.0

Link to more on SET (Support, Empathy Truth)(while I'm at it   I like Gagrl's suggestion to work on some SET for different scenarios...
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=143695.0

Sorry to bombard you with links, read at your leisure...I have just found so much of the information here helpful that I really like to share it.

Hang in there,
Panda39

This is really helpful. I can see that triangle going on when you put it like that. I often feel caught between a rock and a hard place, when that happens; wanting to defend my wife, but also knowing that I can't reason with my mum. Thank you for linking to those posts. Ill read them all through.

[Woolspinner2000]

Hi kiwigal's hubby, 

I want to welcome you to our family as well as kiwigal. Please feel free to start your own account too. We definitely like having NM join us. Your needs are going to be uniquely different than your wife's needs, and you will each come from a different perspective as you look at BPD.

There is another member here who you might especially be able to relate to because your situation reminds me of his. He is trying to support his wife and has a BPDm too, just like you. His name is alphabeta, and you will be able to find some of his posts on the pages following this one.

I would encourage you to read a book that has been most helpful to me, and it was the first book about BPD that I read: Surviving a Borderline Parent. It is quite eye opening, and the book is best read in short segments with processing and working or thinking about the questions asked. If you are in T (that's a question to ask you), this is something you can use to work with your T on.

So where are you with your BPDm? Do you see her as having BPD or perhaps just having issues? Do they affect you?

Looking forward to hearing more from you!

Wools

[Notwendy]

Boundaries are more actions than words. You don't have to tell her the reason.

My mother then came back to me and said "was it really that (mum) was sick or was there something else?"

I see these types of questions as drama bait. There's no way to really answer them. They are opportunities for her to go into victim mode.

If talking to my BPD mother about my feelings had any impact, she'd respect my boundaries, but they don't.

The only thing that has worked for me is to just act on them. I also use "medium chill" - don't discuss emotional issues or my feelings with her. She mostly just goes into victim mode if I do, so why bother?

My reply to such a question would be "Yes, her mother isn't feeling well and this is what we decided. "  It may not be the whole reason, but it's a reason. I don't lie, but my mother isn't entitled to my thoughts.

This is a hard pattern to break with your own mother. She raised you and didn't have good boundaries. She feels entitled to know your thoughts, but she isn't. They are yours.

The payback of good boundaries though? I don't think my kids tell me everything  but that's normal. They do trust me though, since I have shown boundaries with them.

[zachira]

Part of having good boundaries is knowing who you can trust to be more open with and who you have to more guarded with. I have a mother and two siblings with BPD and NPD. I have learned through interacting with them my whole life to tell them as little as possible about my life. They are really only interested in themselves and use what they know about me to control me and/or others' perceptions of me. It is so sad to have a mother with BPD and have to be so guarded. Your challenge is perhaps to not be so open with her as you are with other people, and to abandon the hope that by being more open with her that she will someday be more understanding and empathetic.