H set a boundary with his exW

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

I finally have good news to report

After my H's uBPDxW showed up at our house uninvited three times over Easter weekend, I insisted that he put into place some boundaries.  He finally agreed to send her a list of his boundaries and the consequences (generally, blocking for 3 days).

She went on a text rampage last week when she "suddenly realized" that she doesn't have SD this coming weekend.  H actually called her on her manipulation, and, when she got snotty, informed her that he wasn't willing to deal with that kind of behavior, and then he blocked her for the first time ever.

I asked him this morning if she'd behaved herself since he unblocked her.  He said he hadn't unblocked her yet (it's been 5 or 6 days now), and he's not really sure he wants to, because it has been peaceful.  We've been monitoring SD's phone, and ex hasn't been texting her mean things about us either.  [The speakers on SD's phone are broken, so she can only text.  She has not once asked H to fix them - I think she's enjoying the excuse for not answering the phone.]

I'm thrilled that H has learned he can set a boundary without the blowback he'd feared.  I'm thrilled he's noticed the difference when he doesn't have to wonder when she's going to start pushing again.

I'll wait a few days and ask if he's willing to unblock her, or if he is going to insist that she use the parent app that she had set up last year.

[worriedStepmom]

I finally have good news to report

After my H's uBPDxW showed up at our house uninvited three times over Easter weekend, I insisted that he put into place some boundaries.  He finally agreed to send her a list of his boundaries and the consequences (generally, blocking for 3 days).

She went on a text rampage last week when she "suddenly realized" that she doesn't have SD this coming weekend.  H actually called her on her manipulation, and, when she got snotty, informed her that he wasn't willing to deal with that kind of behavior, and then he blocked her for the first time ever.

I asked him this morning if she'd behaved herself since he unblocked her.  He said he hadn't unblocked her yet (it's been 5 or 6 days now), and he's not really sure he wants to, because it has been peaceful.  We've been monitoring SD's phone, and ex hasn't been texting her mean things about us either.  [The speakers on SD's phone are broken, so she can only text.  She has not once asked H to fix them - I think she's enjoying the excuse for not answering the phone.]

I'm thrilled that H has learned he can set a boundary without the blowback he'd feared.  I'm thrilled he's noticed the difference when he doesn't have to wonder when she's going to start pushing again.

I'll wait a few days and ask if he's willing to unblock her, or if he is going to insist that she use the parent app that she had set up last year.

[GaGrl]

Hey, if she set it up, who is your DH to say it shouldn't be used?

Good job on your patience as he worked through this.

[OutOfEgypt]

Imho... keep that block in place. :D

The best thing we ever did was take the advice of a counselor/friend of ours.  At the beginning of my new marriage, my ex-wife was taking over as much emotional bandwidth as she could.  Our eldest daughter was in the process of not wanting to go over to her mom's anymore, and this caused her mom (my ex) to freak out and unload on me.  Honestly, there were always reasons for her to blow up my phone with angry texts.

Finally, we met with a friend of ours who is a counselor, and she recommended this:
1. Block her phone number
2. Send her an email explaining why we've done this and that all communication regarding the children would take place through email.
3. I would not be reading the emails.  My wife will be reading them.  Anything that is derogatory or inflammatory and not about the children will be immediately deleted, and I will never see it.

We explained far less about what consequences would be.  We just did them.  This immediately changed things and allowed for so much more peace.  Within a month or so, she apologized to us and communication changed to where she had my wife's phone number (my wife is a saint).  She would arrange things through my wife or sometimes have conversations with both of us about our children, rather than just one-on-one with me.  Things got way, way better for a while.  Of course, this eventually blew up, too, and now we don't even hear from her, but my point is that she does not to this day have my phone number, and it is great.  

Putting any kind of layer of indirection between me and my ex wife was a huge step.

[StillHopeful73]

That's fantastic news, worriedstepmom! Hoping that he continues to block her and/or go through the family app. I blocked my ex in March and haven't unblocked since that time. I find just the fact that I can open and respond to the emails when it works for me, is super for my mindset.

Happy for you that he has started the ball rolling when it comes to boundaries  Maybe he'll be so happy with the peace that this will become a regular occurrence.

[worriedStepmom]

Well...he doesn't want to unblock her, but he doesn't want to use an app either.  He wants her to just go away.  I've gently reminded him that he has to communicate some things.  That's one of the responsibilities of being the custodial parent.

The app she had set up last year is awful - it is primarily focused on sending each other bills, and they don't do that (we decided it was easier to pay for everything ourselves).  I sent him the article posted on the other thread about Talking Parents vs Our Family Wizard to see if he's willing to use one of those. 

[Nope]

WorriedStepMom,

What app is best for bills? (Obviously, I’ve got a different situation and different priorities. )

I think it’s pretty typical how it took your DH this long to set this boundary and now he has overshot the mark. It also took awhile for my DH to set any boundaries back when we started dating, but ever since then I have frequently had to remind him that he needs to at least try to work with her when she isn’t being wholly unreasonable. Otherwise he’s no better than she was when she had full physical custody.

As a matter of fact, I think you’ll find that now that he set a boundary and the sky hasn’t fallen, you’ll have to support him through the process of learning to manage his power. Particularly if there is any concern you’ll all end up back in court. He may need to be prepared to justify every single action he takes to a judge. And even if not, children do best when they are allowed to have a complex relationship with both of their parents, so he’ll still need to be supportive of that as best he can.

[livednlearned]

Do you have a sense what you did (or didn't do) that helped him to set this boundary?

You were so clear about your values and limits when she showed up unannounced that weekend. What about your response to H do you think helped him see your position was reasonable?

I'm trying to work through some boundary issues with H and his uBPD SD22, so hoping to pick up some pro tips 

[GaGrl]

I'm watching this also. Somewhere along the line, DH simply quit answering the Ex's texts and voicemails if there were no need, and I really don't know what finally kicked in.

[worriedStepmom]

Nope, they were using  SmartCoparent.  I believe it's free, and it is mainly designed for exchange of bills.  They never used it for that, so I'm not sure if it is easy to use or not.

Lnl, I think he's always known my position was reasonable, and I think your husband probably knows you are being reasonable.  The conflict avoidance runs deep, and it came down to which conflict he wanted to deal with - her potential meltdowns or mine.  For the first time, I think he was more afraid of the consequences of not appeasing me.

Our conversation was basically a term paper tying together all the various argument we'd had over the last few months.  Thesis - he was harming his daughter, his relationship with his daughter, and our marriage. 

I gave very specific examples of situations where his action or inaction led directly to emotional harm to SD (via her mom) and told him point-blank that he was no better than his ex.  He doesn't want to deal with his ex on parenting issues and he is willing to let his 11-year-old take care of him and have those conversations instead. 

SD has realized I'm the one primarily trying to protect her from these situations, and that's why she has been turning to me more often.  She can't trust him to protect her because he is ignoring the problem.

This is contributing to the already imbalanced emotional labor in the household.   I'm overwhelmed, and it's getting to the point where I have nothing left to give.  I'm scared that he can't stand up for our family, and I can't rely on him to be a part of the solution instead of a part of the problem, and I don't know what to do. 

And then I dumped it completely in his lap.  He's right that I might not understand the situation thoroughly because he lived with her and I didn't, and it's his kid involved.  I trust his judgment.  He needs to have a plan - any plan - and I'd help.

And then I sat quietly on the couch and cried. He sat and thought and then 30 minutes later pulled out his laptop and sent her the email we'd been talking about for 6 months.

...And now, he's discovered he can unblock her and send her text messages to a spam folder that he can check at his convenience.   She doesn't get a message that she's blocked, and he doesn't have to pay attention.  I'm worried it will be the exact same problem.  If he doesn't monitor it and extend consequences, she's going to start sending the same kind of mean texts, and keep escalating because she thinks he's reading it and not responding, and then the phone calls start, and overall he'll be less and less inclined to keep her informed.  But I'm willing to wait and see, and at least under this method we don't have the constantly chiming phone to make me aware that she's texting.  Like gagrl, I can keep the crazy out of my presence.

[Panda39]

Well...he doesn't want to unblock her, but he doesn't want to use an app either.  He wants her to just go away. 

  I'm sorry but this made me laugh because who hasn't had that thought!    

I've gently reminded him that he has to communicate some things.  That's one of the responsibilities of being the custodial parent.

  But cooler heads prevailed 

My SO also used email as a tool to communicate with his ex when he chose to, I know it took a lot for your DH to get there but hopefully he will begin to see the benefits of controlling the intrusive behavior by setting boundaries.  He's learning a new tool/skill, be aware though that it may be uncomfortable for him for a while as he learns and practices.

Panda39

[livednlearned]

I can't rely on him to be a part of the solution instead of a part of the problem, and I don't know what to do.

 

Wow. That's powerful.

If he doesn't monitor it and extend consequences, she's going to start sending the same kind of mean texts, and keep escalating because she thinks he's reading it and not responding, and then the phone calls start, and overall he'll be less and less inclined to keep her informed. 

Would he be willing to tell her what the limit is? That he will check emails x times a day or x times a week? I would worry the same thing, that she'll think no responses mean she has to dial up the volume.

Also, when H changes a limit, I have to remember to give positive feedback. Usually I'm a little slow to do that. He has made some small changes and I made a point to let him know how much it means to me.

I think your point about how your H had to choose between appeasing you (reasonable) and his ex (not reasonable) is important. Reading about your efforts made me realize that it usually takes some degree of strong emotion on my part to get H's attention.

[GaGrl]

The show of emotion is interesting.it made me realize that DH listens to my blah-blah-blah complaining about his ex's behaviors, but it has been those times I actually flared in anger (I'm not an angry person) or cried that he responded with significant change in his approach.I

Makes me wonder what I can do differently before reaching that level of emotion...

[worriedStepmom]

I feel guilty about the emotion level sometimes - I worry that I'm descending to her tactics, throwing a tantrum to get my way.

My husband does not respond otherwise.  I don't know if it's that he's been conditioned not to pay attention until it hits tsunami level, or if he truly doesn't understand how upset I am until I blow up.

I have resorted to tantrums before to force a change, but it was always temporary.  So this conversation, and a different one a few weeks before, I reacted with the same level of emotion manifested a little differently.  I stopped problem solving, I forced myself to let go of the anger, and I dropped any attempt to sugarcoat.  I tried to be totally vulnerable.  "This is the way I feel.  These are the reasons why.  I'm lost.  I love you.  I need help."  He's responded much, much better to that.

[Ironically, this wasn't a tactic.  It was me throwing up my hands in utter defeat.] 

He's trying.  I am trying to step back and let him figure it out.  I do need to make sure to praise him more and so that he knows I see the effort he's making.

[OutOfEgypt]

One of the main issues with co-parenting in general is the emotional hooks between the former spouses.  This is 100 times worse when BPD is in the mix, with the push-pull and the level of toxic enmeshment between the pwBPD and the non.  That enmeshment doesn't automatically end when the relationship ends.  As you well know, the divorce decree doesn't erase the toxic ties.  The BPD knows they can push buttons, scream, throw a fit, etc. and get the other person to react.  My counselor used to say my ex was "checking for my pulse" to see if I was still emotionally engaged or to essentially extend the enmeshment through conflict.  And the non is tragically habituated to a lifestyle of managing drama and figuring out how to handle this person.  It becomes an identity.  I remember even getting a rise out of it -getting a rise out of "calling her" on her manipulation and bad behavior, like it's some demented game.

When I first got remarried, my enmeshment with my ex caused a LOT of problems in my marriage.  My wife hated how it was so constantly on my mind.  My phone was blowing up all the time with nasty text messages from my ex, and I would reel for days in anger and anxiety, talking about what she said and what to do about it, worrying about what she would do next.  It was a constant shadow cast over our marriage.  My wife would get very hurt, and she would get angry with me.  It caused a lot of conflict between us.  Understandably, my wife was not only weary of the drama.  She was weary of how my ex wife was essentially still in the middle of my life.  She felt like she was being forced to share me, forced to have this other person in the middle of our marriage, and she was right.  

When we followed the advice of the counselor (mentioned in a previous post in this thread), it really made a huge difference.  All communication went through email, and I wouldn't even see it unless my wife read that it was short, to the point, and only about what is needed for the kids or for coordinating schedules.  Within a short time, this changed to my wife being the point person in the co-parenting communication via text messages and sometimes phone calls.  This upset (in a good way) the entire dynamic and made a big difference in de-escalating things and helping chop out that enmeshment.  It also communicated very clearly to my ex that my wife and I are one.  She doesn't get to still have a piece of me.  She gets to deal with my wife and I, together, and my wife will step between us.  And the kids that I share with my ex... those are our kids (my wife and I's, together), not just mine.  It sent the message that I am not the co-parent with my ex... we are.  

As much as it is your husband's responsibility to deal with his ex for co-parenting reasons, do you really want his ex to have that piece of him?  I would not.  If the tables were turned, as much as I wouldn't want to do it, I would do the same for my wife if her ex was like this.  There's no way he gets to fight with her like they are married still.  Sometimes he a jerk to her, and I do stand in.  At the very least he behaves much nicer to my wife when I'm even just standing there.

So my humble suggestion isn't to step back and let him figure it out at all.  If he couldn't figure it out during their marriage it's not going to happen now (no offense to him).  My humble suggestion is to jump in and have him step back. Because the enmeshment isn't there, because there's objectivity and emotional distance, IMHO the new spouse is the person best positioned to step in the middle and cut this toxic rope between them.  No more allowing this person to divide the two of you.  Enough is enough.

Ironically, my ex actually liked it at first.  I think she thought her and my wife would be buddies, but that didn't last as you can imagine.


 

[worriedStepmom]

That's an interesting point, OutofEgypt. 

In our case, my existence is a major trigger to the ex, to the point that she is reluctant to attend SD's school events or other activities when I am there (and therefore she misses out on a lot of stuff).  From the beginning (7 years ago), she fears that I am stealing her daughter and her bad behavior escalates if she thinks I am involved in any way - unless the confrontation happens in person, then, if I am present she retreats and will send only a single derogatory text to H about me before dropping the topic. She claims to be "terrified" of me, but I think she thinks in terms of verbal abuse (which I don't do) instead of physical abuse (which I also don't do).

Did you have that dynamic? 

I have always taken her fears at face value (that she doesn't understand that SD can love me and her at the same time), but you've put an interesting twist on it- maybe she is also staking her territory. SD is "hers" (and now H's, since h has primary custody) and H is also "hers" in a way.  I know she wants his approval.

I would be willing to handle the communication anonymously (pretending to be H), but he has not been receptive to that.  I plan to talk to him later this week.  I will bring this up.

[OutOfEgypt]

oh man, yeah we did not have that issue.  hmm...

Although, we do, now, in some ways.  My ex is convinced that the two of us are awful people who only want her to suffer and take the kids away from her, who don't support her as their mom, etc.  She has cut off all of her children at this point and doesn't even talk to us, but loves to talk *about* us all over social media.

Sorry you're going through this.  What a strain on a marriage

[livednlearned]

I feel guilty about the emotion level sometimes - I worry that I'm descending to her tactics, throwing a tantrum to get my way.

I can understand why. He wasn't hearing you, so turning up the volume probably felt like a last resort.

Also, it sounds like she crossed a line by coming to the house unannounced and breached the perimeter  

My T recommended I email my H when I want to address a specific hot topic, like SD22 coming to the house and staying indefinite periods. Our goal is to remain partners, to be cooperative, looking out for each other. SD22's BPD traits introduce splitting dynamics into our marriage -- I try to remember that if we are arguing, she is getting results.

Anything we can do to be unified front is worth trying.

[worriedStepmom]

That's interesting, lnl.

I emailed H last month about another issue that was making me really emotional.  I wanted to express how upset I was - and why - without putting him on the spot.  We had a really good, productive talk that night. 

I might try that with this issue next time, too.  Because there will be a next time...there always is!

I think I'm going to make us a few appointments for marriage counseling, too.  I made a list of everything in our lives that has changed in the last 18 months, and it's a lot.  (No wonder I feel overwhelmed sometimes.)  I think we're at the point where it would be helpful to have a professional help us tweak communication to make sure we stay at a healthy place.

[Nope]

The way my DH and I handle his ex is that I handle most of the emails pretending to be him. Pretty sure she is at least aware (based on word choice and lack of emotion involved) that he and I discuss his responses to her. She is definitely afraid of me. Everything about me has always been triggering, but she avoids me in person. She is also convinced that I’m trying to steal her kids from her and points out to SD that I know more about SD’s life and plans than she does and obviously SD wishes I was her mom. That’s a whole lot of FOG, but at 16 her response to her mom’s theatrics is simply to not respond. It’s not her job to make her mom feel secure.

We barely hear from her anymore. She sometimes attempts to use SS as a go-between, but he is in all ways unreliable. He “forgets” to ask his dad things and generally stays out of the crosshairs by playing dumb. Other than that, we get the occasional accusatory email when she needs something. Last time we heard from her she sent an email essentially saying that DH wasn’t co-parenting with her because he never asked her if the court ordered dates for her to have the kids during spring break worked for her. Um... He has never asked.. He assumes that if it doesn’t she’ll let him know. Turned out her point was actually that the dates didn’t work for her and she needed to return them a day early. No big deal. But she couldn’t just say that like a normal person. *shrug*

So you may need to find the approach that best works for all involved. Had I let DH handle his ex on his own it would have driven me nuts. OutofEgypt is right that if left to their own devices our spouses would likely continue to be stuck in a slightly less-involved toxic relationship with their exs. We are the big difference in the situation. That gives us a lot of power and that’s the biggest reason the ex can’t stand us.