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Author Topic: Timber I have a feeling this relationship is about to blow up.  (Read 468 times)
Ltahoe
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« on: March 13, 2019, 07:50:24 AM »

So things have seemingly gone well for the last few weeks, other than being constantly berated for my driving(hardcore backseat driver). So my W who’s in her mid 30s borderline late 30s decides to go out with some single coworker friends in their 20s the other night and have a few drinks.  Not the end of the world I was aware of it and don’t mind the happy hour thing. So she comes home talking about going clubbing, sleepovers etc. with these single 20 year olds. So me already labeled controlling really have no such say in matters anymore as anything I say or point out will be in her eyes me just being controlling.

I know I can’t control who my wife is friends with and what not but it’s a little irritating that my W  seems to chose coworkers friends like this as a reoccurring theme. A little back ground on these friends one is a few months out of a relationship and is on her who can count what number guy since and usually multiple at once.  The other friend is also fresh out of a relationship and big into a singles hook up site. So in essence I’m a little disturbed that this is who she chooses to hangout with outside of work. These three, two friends and W seem to be a really tight circle within her job. I suppose I’m just ranting now but I really don’t see how all the other women in relationships seem to turn down these two girls offers for hanging out but somehow my wife is super caught up and engaged with these two women.

It’s just interesting as one of the coworker friends strictly said she left her H because all he wanted to do was go out and party, not come home etc. Now this girl is inviting my W to do the same activities that supposedly destroyed her marriage. My W in the beggining of our relationship really complained about her Ex engaging in such behavior too and seemed to be bothered that he did that to her. I had once gone out to a bar without my W in the beggining of our relationship, yet she was invited and chose not to go. She seemed very discomforted by the idea of me being out at a bar scene without her(calling texting nonstop asking questions) even though she had every right to show up and was invited. I eventually left way earlier than planned and than everyone else in the party to give her the comfort she wanted. So it seemed that she had always thought it inappropriate or discomforted by couples who engage in such behavior. Based on the past seems like she would disagree with her own behavior given examples above.


I just have a feeling that a slippery slope is now being entered and it’s almost getting to the point of no return. In my eyes this behavior is pretty much the beggining of the end so now I’m not sure how I want to proceed. Of course I want to just put an end to these ideas before they start, but how would someone who’s been labeled controlling do that? Not only that I’m not sure that it would work anyways another case of tell him what he wants and just hide the behavior perhaps, perhaps she listens.  Of course part of me doesn’t care if she thinks I’m controlling this behavior is the beggining of the end for most relationships anyways. Either way I’m in a no win, I let my wife do what she wants destroy the relationship etc. or I step in and protect the marriage and I’m now a controlling bad guy to her and her coworkers.

At this point it’s probably a me vs her coworkers scenario and of course she’s going to have to stand somebody up as I’m sure her coworkers aren’t going to take no as an answer and apply continued pressure, has already been the case. She told me about a scenario where she told one of the coworkers no and had a previous obligation and received continued pressure. Apparently this wasn’t enough of sign that maybe she should be careful interacting with this coworker. I’d like to really ask my wife what she really wants as she can’t have a single life and a married life at the same time. Yet at the same time I know I can’t just approach it that way either.
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« Reply #1 on: March 13, 2019, 10:40:24 AM »

Sorry beginning not beggining.
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« Reply #2 on: March 13, 2019, 09:42:50 PM »

So you can't put your foot down and say something about how you think it's inappropriate for a woman her age, who is a mother, to hang out and party with 20-somethings. If you do, then you will get labeled as controlling.

What if you decide to go out to a bar by yourself. Do you think she'd make the connection?

Also, do you think this is the first step toward cheating?

So how do you see this as the beginning of the end of your marriage?
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« Reply #3 on: March 14, 2019, 07:52:20 AM »

Cat

Idk I’ll probably put my foot down and use what if scenarios this is ridiculous behavior.

Could I go out and do it to her certainly I could, but my wife has made it a habit to up the antics when I try to teach her a lesson like this. She sees it more as a game oh ya he does this I’ll do this and add a little more to the top of it. So I’d rather not go that route as one she’ll see it as a game or two use it as an excuse to justify her behavior of going out. Of course we know she wouldn’t like it, she’s already blamed her ex for ruining her relationship because of that.

Do I think she’ll cheat? Idk officially but let’s just say when married people go out in this fashion and not come home there’s usually a level of secrecy involved. So can I officially say she will, no not really. But I’m also not be overly Naive. She’ll be going out with two younger woman who are on major man hunts.

The Beginning of the end. If she engages in this type of behavior  to me that’s a huge relationship no. I’ve really never seen a good ending to someone who has a spouse that goes out and stays out all night in these circumstances. Idk certainly I’m not going to put up with this behavior it’s crossing the line big time. If this behavior was shown in our dating stage we wouldn’t have got far.  It’s also not something I’m going to ever think appropriate. Why even be married if going out to clubs and not coming home is your idea of fun? I certainly don’t want a relationship with someone like that. It’s super disrespectful, I wouldn’t continue a relationship with someone like that in the beginning, logically thinking about it why would I now.

Then to continue the BPD perspective on this. You have someone that idealizes people and most likely my wife is idealizing these two coworker friends. She’s come home using language that I’ve never heard her use before. Most likely coming from her coworkers, I’ve seen it before I can tell what the coworkers closest to her are like as she’ll bring home new ideas and ways of speaking. Adding to the whole problem is the impulsive issues, so she’s impulsive, idealizing two people who are into picking up men. The club and not coming home really are the last place she should be not only from a moral stand point but because of the other issues at play here.

I said in previous posts I’ll date my wife like I did in the beginning to reconnect but I suppose if I’m dating someone like that and they show me they’re still into the party lifestyle while approaching middle age probably not something I’d like to pursue.  So if this behavior begins I’m just done, by my decision.
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« Reply #4 on: March 14, 2019, 07:59:37 AM »

Could I go out and do it to her certainly I could, but my wife has made it a habit to up the antics when I try to teach her a lesson like this.

Ltahoe, trying to teach people lessons about their behavior ("ill do it so you can see what its like") is the essence of blurry boundaries, and its not a surprise that she responds to it with more of the same.

Excerpt
I said in previous posts I’ll date my wife like I did in the beginning to reconnect but I suppose if I’m dating someone like that and they show me they’re still into the party lifestyle while approaching middle age probably not something I’d like to pursue.

you can put in token romantic efforts, but fundamentally there are two problems breaking down your relationship (you judge her, and the two of you are not aligned in your values) and its not likely to repair much if your heart isnt in it.
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« Reply #5 on: March 14, 2019, 09:10:29 AM »

OnceRemoved

Yes perhaps I judge her but it’s hard not to, especially in circumstances like this. I find it hard because a pwBPD words and actions are frequently in contrast so I suppose I more or less judge her actions not her words. I think you’re right in the values thing it’s a real problem right now. Something we should address in MC hopefully soon. I realize when I was in idealization that my values were mirrored back to me so the whole relationship was founded on values that matched. So when she starts idealizing other people I can see a moral/value shift in her or can make things difficult.

The main thing here is we need to define boundaries as a whole. What’s acceptable for our relationship and on an individual basis. Again hopefully I can do this in MC sooner than not and she with me also. I never thought of the let her seeing how it feels as a boundary thing and you may be right, yet I agree let’s not go there regardless. She’s actually brought the idea up well if I do something do it to me so I know how it feels. It obviously back fired. This isn’t the time for let her see how it feels I can already see how this would go either way not good. Perhaps it would work for some but not in my situation right now. I’d rather do what I can to not escalate things although I know I’m not perfect, so yes I will do some wrong.

I’ve got my fingers crossed that we can make it to MC and talk these things through before she starts acting. Perhaps her talking about this with her single friends was her idealizing and impulsively going along with them. Of course when I told her how uncomfortable I was with this behavior it was raging etc. Only problem now is if she went along with it during their outing and decides to ultimately respect my wishes she’s going to probably get pressure or backlash from the two coworkers. As much as I feel I’m in a no win she’s also in a no win. Someone is going to feel let down and my W is going to feel pulled in multiple directions as one of these coworkers has already had a hard time accepting “no” as an answer.

In short I wish my wife was better about picking who she decides to affiliate with. She has plenty of opportunities and invites to socialize and do things with married women but doesn’t really accept the offer or declines. Of course these type of people aren’t really high into pressuring people so if she doesn’t go or accept they accept that. She tends to gravitate towards people that are more troublesome or have a bad influence and really don’t mind pressuring people. This is also one of the issues with going out with these types of people if she’s already being pressured at work probably not wise to go into more jeapordizing scenarios. Idk just hard to sit there and watch someone play with fire when it’s not only them that’s at risk of being burned.
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« Reply #6 on: March 14, 2019, 10:36:30 AM »

It's good that you're looking at the situation, imagining her perspective of both idealizing these women and also possibly facing pressure from them.

Can you imagine a reason that she doesn't socialize with those married women that you mentioned?
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« Reply #7 on: March 14, 2019, 10:44:46 AM »

Hey LTAHOE,

This is a tricky spot. Defining what she has done 'wrong' is tough and it would seem you are more anxious about what might happen. You don't know what is happening and judging someone on what your paranoia tells you might be happening whilst she's out at bars, and this feels kinda guilty until proven innocent. That said, in a relationship we have a responsibility to manage each others concerns within reasonable grounds. For example would it be reasonable for a husband to say "I don't know what your problem is, I went to the strip club but I had my eyes closed the entire time." The husband hasn't made the obvious choice of avoiding the strip club in an attempt to minimise his W's concerns and show respect to her wishes.

A year or so back one of the members posted to me about my W and her metaphorical cage. In essence your W feels controlled by you. From what I have observed there are values, and actions. On the whole an emotionally healthy adult is able to keep values and behaviours pointing in the same direction... "I believe in the sanctity of marriage, therefore I make ever effort to avoid harming my marriage". A pwBPD can maintain a fantasy (values) and a reality (behaviours) which are miles and miles apart. Why? Because they are impulsive and acting on the NEED to salve their emotional desires, also, their values are often unattainable (black and white thinking, they must be all white). To feel good about satifying her emotional need to go out and feel free, she lies to herself that there's nothing wrong with her behaviour and it's TOTALLY in-line with her values (to avoid judging herself). She likely feels controlled by your judgement about her deviating from her values in her behaviour (which she feels she hasn't done anything wrong), your rules and you maintaining your values ... whilst her values fly around all over the place. Back to the cage... she feels judged which fuels the fire as you look at her in disgust at her behaviours (she still convinces herself that she hasn't done anything wrong... she's just going to a bar with friends!). So, she feels even more emotional which prompts her to want to go to the bar even more, and maybe this time she does have a flirt with some guy, and this guy MAKES HER FEEL AWESOME about herself... you're still at home judging and controlling her. So she comes home feeling good and then she sees you and she believes you're judging her (maybe she's judging herself by this point) and that makes her feel bad again... so back to the bar she goes. She feels like she's in a cage, the scraps she wants which make her feel good are outside the cage (flirting with men that make her feel good about herself). You are the cage.

What to do about this?

I wish I knew. The one thing I do know is that judging her is not going to help put out the fire. Maybe it's some body language, maybe it's pointing it out, maybe it's a harsher tone... it will all be seen as judgement. When she says you're controlling, I'm pretty sure she means judgemental. She has core shame and is allergic to guilt and shame. One half of her has NEEDS to salve her emotions, you're stopping her doing that by 'making' her feel guilt and shame (the cage), this fuels the emotions and enhances her desire to reach for the scraps outside the cage AND  Paragraph header (click to insert in post) in the corner of the cage. It's tough to tell what has worked for me... upbeat "have fun" has worked (but is this enabling), non-judgement on return might help, trust her... could be difficult but you don't know if she's doing anything 'wrong'.

I have as much to learn about this as you so please come up with some great solutions.

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« Reply #8 on: March 14, 2019, 10:46:37 AM »

PS, if you lay down the law you will reinforce the cage, you will also give the flying monkeys ammo and bare in mind they have her ear at the moment, NOT YOU. They matter, even if you rightfully couldn't give two hoots what they think or say since they're likely very sad, shallow and empty people.
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« Reply #9 on: March 14, 2019, 11:21:00 AM »

Awesome words of wisdom from Enabler  Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)   He's got a lot of experience with this issue.
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« Reply #10 on: March 14, 2019, 11:22:18 AM »

Well I understand there’s a circle going on here. It’s why I always feel I’m in a tricky spot. Sure some of it is paranoia I feel I’ll have to address this with MC. MC probably will be able to have us sit down and go through cons and pros of such a circumstance while maintaining peace, something I can’t really do without a third party around.

What are your guys thoughts though? you’re all in or have had pwBPD relationships. So your SO expresses interest in going to clubs and staying out all night coming home then next day. Here’s the scenario your SO wants to go out with 2 fairly new single people enjoying their freedom to the max(been having random hookups). Wants to stay out all night with them. These friends know of you but not really acquainted. Have planned multiple events like this so it’s not a special occasion it’s just simply going out. So your SO is really the only married one in the group. One of the friends has already had a hard time accepting no from your SO and continues to apply pressure. What do you guys do?
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« Reply #11 on: March 14, 2019, 11:30:57 AM »

Frankly, I'd feel exactly the same about this situation as you do. What I would do about it? That's a difficult question.

Perhaps the best strategy is to improve your relationship to the point where she would prefer to do things with you rather than with those younger women. It's easy to say this, much more difficult to do.

What I wonder is why she's so drawn to them in the first place. Perhaps it's fear of growing older and being accepted by young women has given her an ego boost. And maybe she doesn't feel like she had enough fun in her youth and is trying to make up for it.

That's another avenue to approach--perhaps it might be better asked by a therapist. But there's something compelling about hanging out with these gals and it would be helpful to know what she's getting out of it.
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« Reply #12 on: March 14, 2019, 12:01:35 PM »

Yes Cat I’ve thought about this too. So am I not providing enough outings with her and if I do would this desire go away. We have been going out with what we’re capable of a few times a month. But of course there’s money limitations and baby sitting so we can’t go out every weekend night and pay for a sitter spending 100s or more every weekend. Perhaps this is some of what appeals of going out with her single friends, the one exploits men for sure always has different men paying and bringing her lunch to work etc. so I’m sure three attractive females out could have a very cheap if not free night.

I also sometimes feel that my wife finds certain things somewhat enticing and doesn’t understand self control and wants more. For example she’s had money issues we have discretionary money that doesn’t have to be answered for but sometimes it seems like that isn’t enough so she blows past it and creates credit card debt. I almost can see it as the same with going out she gets to happy hour with coworkers and a few dates with me a month. So she tastes the going out but unlike a normal person that knows limitations and reality wants to do it all the time and in excess. Of course these are all speculative thought and could be close or off.

Cat those are some good questions also if this is brought up in MC perhaps I’ll ask some of those. Not going to on my own yet.

I suppose what I’d really like to know is if my relationship was built on certain morals and Values. Is it possible to set up limits/boundaries that can be respected. How do you do this with pwBPD. It would really end the circle that Enabler was explaining. I’d just like certain thing to be clear cut and dry. You know the relationship was founded on these values and while they were maintained things were fairly good. When not followed it creates chaos so why not follow the morals/values that built the relationship and kept the chaos away. If W mentions happy hour with coworkers no complaints no judging, if wife asks to go to lunch, mall, certain events with friends no judging. Wife mentions going to club and stay out literally all night well ya judging comes into play.

 Problem is my wife already knows my thoughts on these issues and the thoughts she at least presented in the beginning so it’s not like she accidentally stumbled on something like this unaware. So if she knows already idk how she’d come to her senses about respecting these things again
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« Reply #13 on: March 14, 2019, 12:13:55 PM »

Cat has a good point, what makes it appealing to go out with the young friends:

- they don’t judge her
- they validate the invalid (“go sister”, “you alright hoon?”, “your life is so tough, how you coping”, “you need to do some self care and come out with us, you deserve it”)... they reinforce the victim and prop up the Karpman triangle as you as the perpetrator. (My W actively seeks out these people).
- they are not emotionally draining, they are emotionally rejuvenating
- their faces don’t remind her of the bad things she has done/said.
- THEY DONT KNOW HER SO SHE CAN BE HER FANTASY

When she comes home, you are the polar opposite to that without moving a muscle. You’re her captor.

There’s a large and growing fraternity of yummy mummies that believe they are entitled to do whatever they like. I maybe wrong here but it strikes me as an overshoot of the feminist movement. Where once women fort for equality with men, some abused their work and contorted it. In essence they cherry picked what was ‘rite’ and ‘just’ and what was good. In these people’s persuit of happiness it was deemed okay to take whatever they wanted at the expense of men, because they deserved it. One such woman is likely to be the recently divorced lady... if you take her account at face value then by the sounds of things she has good rite to believe she’s owed something by men (albeit her ex who is just one guy among billions who wronged her).

If your W has BPD then this fraternity has to be super super appealing. They don’t judge else they would be judging themselves and they likely normalise a lot of inappropriate (note not ‘wrong’) behaviour. BPD have a shallow sense of self, so why not adapt you values to these people? Misery loves company, it actively recruits people... who wants to be sitting in a bar getting drunk on their own? That’s sad!

I have ridden this storm several times before and it blew itself out as she migrated away from those people towards others. I don’t believe I did anything that influenced that and it just happens... poof... new values. This recent (3-4yrs) has been different and much much worse, it’s not associated with work and connected to school where there’s far far more people to shift around and gain new values, and meet more deviants. Stay strong in your values and your behaviour, YOU telling her is fuel on the fire. I don’t know how the subject could come up in MC but it can’t come from you or seem to come from you. She needs to find a different path herself and come up with that idea herself else she will just believe you’re controlling her.

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« Reply #14 on: March 14, 2019, 02:38:17 PM »

Enabler,

You’re probably right these other women are offering my wife a no rules, no responsibility, no judgement atmosphere that is enticing. Doesn’t matter how it formed but yes there’s a big culture of doing me and not caring who you screw over in the process being responsible doesn’t matter and if anyone doesn’t like it cut them out. Probably is an appealing proposition to my wife. The divorce threats have definitely increased again lately since she’s been hanging out with this women. The anti male sentiment has been there. This is what I mean I can tell what the people are like that she hangs out with as she comes home with a whole new set of speech and behaviors. Of course it made sense as she’s hanging around two woman that are fresh out of relationships. Now what worries me is her picking up on their other habits, and seems she’s well on her way.
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« Reply #15 on: March 14, 2019, 11:13:55 PM »

I’m going to try and put myself in her shoes. Historically there’s a lot of good reasons for women to be mad at men, often more at the concept of men than the particular individual.

And because she has company in these thoughts, you are in a no-win position.

Whatever is motivating her, and that is the unknown, she is finding solace in hanging out with these women.

I’m wondering if her not accepting invitations from women her age might be due to her feeling insecure around them. Whereas being a mother and being older than these coworkers, she might have more status.

So if you try and stop her by asserting the values and criteria argument that you did not sign up for a wife who parties all night, then likely you’re going to get viewed as controlling.

Whereas if you say, “It breaks my heart that you prefer hanging out with the girls. I miss you so much when you’re gone.”

Then you come across as a sensitive guy.
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« Reply #16 on: March 15, 2019, 06:22:22 AM »


Whereas if you say, “It breaks my heart that you prefer hanging out with the girls. I miss you so much when you’re gone.”

Then you come across as a sensitive guy.

This is very tough and so person to person.  In my situation the above would have immediately been deemed manipulative and controlling.  The term Emotionally Abusive when have probably have been tossed out also.  It is tough.

If this scenario was in my world I probably would have said something along the lines of, " I'm not comfortable with your choice of activity. It is not something that I believe someone in a committed relationship should be doing. You obviously feel different about it and that is a choice that you alone are only able to make. While I wish it were different for you, for me, and for our relationship there's nothing I can do to stop you. Please be safe."
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« Reply #17 on: March 15, 2019, 06:44:00 AM »

The attraction to a younger crowd may reflect her emotional immaturity. She may not "fit" with the married women her age in terms of her own emotions. PwBPD have emotional immaturity- and she may relate better to this group- and with them, they may not notice that she isn't emotionally mature.

While she may be chronologically a married woman in her 30's, she may have the emotions of a teen ager- who would want to hang out with friends and party with no obligations. This gives her the chance to do this.

This doesn't mean it's OK to do, or OK for you but it may be a comfortable social fit for her. You see her adopting the mannerisms and language of her friends. This is like a teen ager. She gets to be part of the cool kids here.
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« Reply #18 on: March 15, 2019, 07:04:38 AM »

I agree these things I already know I really can’t stop her, and after I express my concerns that’s about all I can do. Perhaps you’re right if I’m more sensitive and detailed why it does hurt and my sincere concerns things may may workout better. My theory is why would a married person want to even be in this position, yet that’s also part of my issue in trying to problem solve with pwBPD. Perhaps instead of saying I’m not really comfortable with you doing these types of things and asking if they can find some middle ground between married and single people and hangout in that fashion. I could’ve said something along the lines of I understand that you want to do this do you think we can sit down and figure out the pros and cons with such a situation as MC would probably have us do. If she brings it up again I’ll probably take the sensitive road as you guys suggest and perhaps ask her to sit down and let’s figure out a list of pros and cons. Perhaps she was just impulsively going along with her single friends. Idk

As Enabler states I’m in a fine position of being either controlling or enabling in such situations. I am being a little assuming, preoccupied of things that haven’t officially taken place and need to slow myself down. Easier said than done as a lot of lines have been finely pushed in this relationship. Probably also bringing in some issues from previous relationships that have effected me. I still don’t excuse this type of behavior truth is I’ve seen more relationships spiral out of control from engaging in this behavior, so ultimately don’t think it’s appropriate to introduce it from either side. Without going into details I already know this is the type of behavior that wrecked her previous relationships. So I really double down in a way on this type of stuff one from the moral/value perspective, then second from actual past experiences in both our previous relationships. You could add the number of other relationships I’ve personally witnessed that have been destroyed by such activities.

In the end I know it’s going to take time, but hopefully we can establish some boundaries for what’s acceptable bahvior in our relationship. I still find it hard though because you have a relationship that seemed to be founded and established on certain values. I don’t expect my wife to go back to the days of permanent idealization of me but I do want the relationship to at least be respected and protected.
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« Reply #19 on: March 15, 2019, 08:24:52 AM »

Why would a married person want to go clubbing with 20 year olds?

I'm a married person and I don't. However a person with BPD has a poor sense of self. This activity probably fulfills some  need in her. As I mentioned - she may be emotionally closer to these peers than to peers her own age. It can be flattering to go clubbing and have men pay attention to you- married or not. I wouldn't do it, but with a poor sense of self- flattery can build up a poor self esteem.

Also, it's a fantasy world, and sometimes fantasy is easier than reality.

Then there are poor boundaries. Being married doesn't mean we stop wanting attention or noticing attractive people. It means we have boundaries and don't indulge these desires because we value our marriage more. Your wife may be impulsive- want what she wants in the moment.

Society isn't kind to older women. She's not old at 30 but may want to appear younger and get the attention a younger woman might have.

I don't think her behavior has much to do with you but with her. Still you have your right to what values you want in your marriage.

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« Reply #20 on: March 15, 2019, 09:39:40 AM »

NotWendy

You’re right about the emotional maturity can’t disagree with that one. Perhaps it is why she finds younger people more appealing and seems drawn to them and they her. Maybe she is seeking the kind of attention these women get because it’s flattering. Idk officially it all makes sense in certain aspects but unless she’s open and honest about exactly why she’s interested it is all sort of speculation even though it all fits and may be the case. Of course she won’t be open and honest about it. Heck she may not even consciously know why she would want to.

I’ll have to just take it as comes for now. Nothings happened yet but plans are in the works. My wife knows my thoughts, I’m sure there will be other opportunities  to discuss this in a civilized manner before things take place. So hopefully it all works out in the best interest of the marriage.
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« Reply #21 on: March 15, 2019, 11:07:03 AM »

Did she go clubbing when she was single?

I didn't. I was too intimidated by men hitting on me. It just wasn't for me. But once when I was engaged and hubby ( to be ) was out of town, I went with some girlfriends, mostly for the company and also out of curiosity to see what it was like. ( and hubby knew about it and it wasn't an issue).

Being "off the market" - I didn't feel vulnerable. If someone wanted to chat me up, or if they didn't- it wouldn't hurt my feelings. I wasn't interested. However, it did make me uncomfortable to have people think I was single. If someone tried to talk to me, I told him I was engaged immediately and was just there with my friends.

Surprisingly, one guy welcomed the no stress situation. He had just broken up with his girlfriend and his friends had dragged him out. He wasn't ready. I listened to his story. It was win win for both. His friends didn't push him, others left me alone.

I feel for the people in that situation in clubs. They are putting themselves out there- and risking rejection. That can't be easy, even if you are tough about it and it is your choice.

But your wife gets to enjoy the attention without doing this. She isn't available. She just gets to pretend, and also it puts her in a position of power. Attention without vulnerability. I think that could appeal to someone with BPD.



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« Reply #22 on: March 15, 2019, 12:25:32 PM »

shes hanging out with her coworkers Ltahoe...as people do. clubbing may be her younger coworkers idea, and your wife has less say in the activities, so goes along. im not much for bars, but if i were trying to make friends with my coworkers, and thats where they went and invited me...

do the two of you have couples friends? friends in common?
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« Reply #23 on: March 15, 2019, 02:05:40 PM »

NotWendy

She used to Club when she was younger from what I understand. It actually lead to her betraying her SO other at the time multiple times. When we met she wasn’t into clubbing or anything of the sorts at least what she presented. When we dated the bar scene or clubs were really never what we did. Not saying we never go to bars, but it’s rarely and not the whole party scene or type of going out. So it’s not like the relationship changed from partying to calm it’s somethkng that’s never been in or relationship. Something we both seemed past in our lives.  So it’s a little awkward that the whole thing is now so enticing.


OnceRemoved

Possibly makes sense. However it’s a group of 3, two single women and my wife which represents a small portion of the coworkers so seems like it’s not highly popular thing for the other coworkers to participate in. Most of her coworkers are in relationships or have kids. It’s really just two that I’m aware of that don’t have obligations, the one of the two actually does but the responsibilities have been pawned in to the grandparents.
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« Reply #24 on: March 15, 2019, 02:19:14 PM »

So maybe it's the power, and the attention. It's actually deceptive- to appear to be single and flirt with men looking for some action. It puts her in the one up position. The men are vulnerable. She's not.

I think of the Karpman triangle. The "club " is the rescuer to you as persecutor if she thinks of you as controlling. Also a triangle can keep someone from dealing with the work of a relationship. She can get attention, feel attractive at the club which makes her less vulnerable with you. She can also lead guys on- for the pleasure of it- she has nothing to lose if they aren't interested. She is neither fully available to them, or to you, and this may feel emotionally safe to her. Intimate relationships involve vulnerability. That's tougher.

My BPD mother gets some pleasure out of pulling the wool over people's eyes. It gives her a sense of power knowing the other person doesn't see the whole reality. I don't think she does this in an evil sense- to hurt the other person- I think it is more about feeling in control.  She likes to have people pay attention to her. She was very attractive in her days and men always noticed her. She liked that.

I think the clubbing is filling an emotional need for her. It may not be actual cheating but it is harming the marriage to get sexual emotional needs met there. I don't think she sees it that way- she's probably just liking it too much. But you have a right to your values and how much of this you could tolerate. I can see where with poor boundaries this could lead to cheating- as it puts her where men can proposition her.
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« Reply #25 on: March 15, 2019, 03:37:20 PM »

Idk all of this is why the whole idea seems nuts to me. She’s had past issues engaging in this type of behavior. Her one ex supposedly put her through what she put her one ex through. She seemed happy to be with someone that wasn’t in to the whole club scene and past it as she was supposedly past it all too. Stories of her betraying and her being betrayed because of all this type of going out have emerged throughout our relationship.

It was a few years ago she had got interested in reinstituting this type of behavior. She has a chaotic job history probably avg of a new job per year over the course of us being together. She always works these jobs were its common for entry level and younger employees to work not really career move jobs. a few years back she was working at a place with a lot of younger coworkers. The work staff was a mess lots of infidelities, betrayals and hook ups amongst themselves. Stories my wife has come home with. Spouses BF/GFs coming into work starting fights with coworkers messing around with their SO. Pregnancies girls didn’t know if it was SO or work Husband. Some other woman asking my wife to go with her to meet blind dates she met online. It was literally nuts probably the one job I’m glad she got rid of. My wife had got interested in going out with these people to the events(house parties) where these activities took place. It was really then my red flags raised hard as why any married woman that’s protecting her marriage would want to be in that scenario. The only thing I told my wife back then was if my coworkers were like yours would you want me to go out with them to house parties. Of course she didn’t like that she knew the answer and said she’d stay away

I really don’t know what she did, I was told one thing and yet she did another. I was very busy back then with work and education commitments working akward shifts. Her behavior got strangeone morning I got a goodbye kiss and was kinda taken back as her breath tasted like alcohol. Then she got caught red handed in a lie. The person watching our kids had mentioned something about not appreciating the kids being left there so my W could go out and drink. According to my W the sitter was lying and events never happened.

So there’s a lot of underlying issues to my being defensive and being worried about all of this. Sure there’s a level of paranoia here but there’s also some unresolved things. My thought are that my wife has a history of not so good things happening while participating in such behavior. Has lied about things like this, so given the history not only are values /morals the issue here it’s a multitude of things. If this were a bachelorette party of a close friend of some sorts and my wife hasn’t had this history things would be a lot different. Of course I could go on about the one coworker who has many short term and multiple relationships at a time and doesn’t care for her kids she already has trying to have another etc. sure it’s judgmental. Really my wife has no business hanging around this type of stuff. Granted I can’t physically control her and I’m not going to. But the day she goes out and stays out all night the morning after I’m going to have some very difficult decisions to make.
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« Reply #26 on: March 15, 2019, 05:04:56 PM »

It sounds like you are very aware of your boundaries and that staying out all night would be a death knell to the relationship.
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« Reply #27 on: March 15, 2019, 06:40:29 PM »

Sorry to throw it out like that. But my wife is granted a lot of leniency and I’ve turned my head enough. I’ve had women right in front of me say to my wife your H let’s you do that, your H is ok with that. Turn to me and say really you don’t mind, this tells me wether she thinks I’m controlling or not she’s able to do a lot of things that other women don’t feel they can in their relationship for whatever reason.

My wife has the choice to work or not work, my wife has always had the choice to work where she wants, hrs she wants, full time part time etc. My W goes to happy hour with her coworkers if she wants, hangs out at the mall with her friends, has discretionary money that she can do whatever she wants with doesn’t have to account for it. She gets whatever she wants within certain means. She gets vacations, outings, late model vehicles regardless of whether she’s working or not. There’s woman that really envy what she has and have made it known.

Yet she always finds a way to need more and excessive amounts. Idk if any of you remember previous forums with her credit card debt issues. She’s obviously has impulsivity issues, and I’m starting to think it’s not limited to just one or a few areas. She has a serious case of wanting what she doesn’t have.

All I know as her H if she comes to me and says she’s planning on doing this and it’s against my values/morals/boundaries and what the relationship was formed on and and what she was supposed to be based on, heck ya I’m going to assess the situation. Whether that’s judgmental or not idk and I really don’t care either, the fact is my wife can hang out with her coworkers at happy hour, she can go out to eat with them, she has plenty of other opportunities to do things with them. She has social opportunities with me, friends, coworkers. The reasons she limits some of these opportunities while overextending others who knows. You guys probably hit some of the reasons, some may be more relevant than others and all may be relevant to some extent.

So given that wife has admittedly had sexual relations outside her relationships before by engaging in clubbing, the whole slew of issues that have plaugued our relationship. Which are scattered throughout the forums here, talking to ex, money issues, sexual issues etc. I feel the situation doesn’t warrant me being flexible in this case and turning my head and encouraging her to go out to the club and go sleep over somewhere else and return who knows what time the next day. I’ve watched her make the same mistakes over and over again on multiple things and it boggles my mind and drives me crazy. This is purely nothing but her engaging in self destructive behavior and she certainly hasn’t learned her lesson from the past. Sad thing is she’s not just destructing herself but the other people that are in relationships with her. If she’s going to self destruct and it’s inevitable at this point then idk she should do it and get it over with. I don’t need a front row seat to extended controlling manipulative behavior and her psychological warfare. Sure as controlling as I may supposedly be she’s 10 times more controlling, critical and judgmental than me and she knows it.

I’ve done nothing but put this woman first and flex my morals/values,  walk on eggshells til I’ve lost my own sanity and self. I almost lost my own morals and values in the process. In all honesty I’ve lost myself to numbing coping mechanisms that aren’t healthy. The line is getting drawn there is an acceptable side and an unacceptable side she wants to cross it that’s on her

 Sure again I can’t control or force her but I’m sure going to advise her and request that she think about it, because a line needs to be drawn. She needs to know her values soon, the values our relationship should be based on and boundaries pertaining to us as individuals I’m  not trying to put it all on her but the sooner we have firm boundaries and she quits violating boundaries on the offensive I’ll be less likely to have blurry boundaries as a defensive act.

What I’m looking for is the most direct route to establish boundaries, and values.

Sorry Cat not a direct hit on you or anyone else

Yes Cat based on history and the sensitivity of our relationship going out and staying out all night is not something I can side with right now.

For example Had this relationship been different and full of trust things would be different. Say said friend was having a significant event out all night and a stay over somewhere I would certainly have a different outlook.
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« Reply #28 on: March 15, 2019, 06:48:12 PM »

Part of the problem is these coworkers she hangs out with were in relationships when they met since they no longer are they’ve had dramatic shifts in how they act. Obviously my wife is still married so the shift in the two newly single woman is pretty dramatic from who they were less than 6 months ago. Again given my wife’s job history it’s just insane to think that she’d be willing to put up huge amounts of risk for ppl she may not even have a relationship with this time next year.
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« Reply #29 on: March 15, 2019, 07:34:44 PM »

I'd feel the same way if my husband stayed out all night clubbing with younger buddies. She hasn't done that yet?

Does she know that this is a deal breaker for you?
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