She shattered two storm doors last night part 3

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

Mod note: This is a continuation from a previous thread: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=335081.0

Well, it's still groundhog day around here. No movement on anything. No changes of any kind. I'm still a monster because I won't help "heal her heart" and the hurt from when my parents came to visit. So, so, tired of this. To answer a question from Notwendy from further up, no, I do not want to keep living this life.

I'm trying to stick to something. I'm not sure exactly what it is. I guess I'm trying to be committed to not operating in a world of threats and demands. I don't want to play that game, and that's game she is playing. There is no way to win. I'm not exactly sure what it is that she wants me to do. I guess it's to make some grand gesture and a big apology and beg for forgiveness. I don't think that's something I need to do, but more than that, I simply can't do that when I'm being screamed at, yelled at, called names, told we're done, that she never wants to see me, that meeting me was the worst mistake of her life, that I'm cruel, that I torture her, that I must enjoy it, etc. Nothing genuine or authentic on my part can possibly come from that. And I hear it or read it every single night, for weeks now. She ignores or declines every bridge I try to build. There's one thing I can do, and that's the thing she screams and demands and makes threats about. And I'm not doing that. There is no winning that game.

But she is stubborn and persistent, and it destroys me to see her in so much pain and to feel like I am somehow causing it. I don't think I'm actually responsible for the pain she feels. I don't think I'm torturing her, but that's how she feels, and my resolve to keep doing what I'm doing (or not doing) is weakening. But I'm not participating in a world of threats. That's the thing I'm trying to hold on to.

My alma mater is playing tonight in the Final Four (actually two of them are, but I only really care about one of them) tonight. So I'm going to watch that with some friends. I have a feeling this may be a bad night for my wife. At my T's suggestion, I called the police department and asked about doing a welfare check. They recommended calling the non-emergency number, as that is likely to affect who and how they respond. I have that number in my phone now. Still preparing myself to actually call. One thing all of this has made me see about myself is that I am very good at denying reality, normalizing the abnormal, and minimizing things. Trying to get better at that.  

[stolencrumbs]

Mod note: This is a continuation from a previous thread: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=335081.0

Well, it's still groundhog day around here. No movement on anything. No changes of any kind. I'm still a monster because I won't help "heal her heart" and the hurt from when my parents came to visit. So, so, tired of this. To answer a question from Notwendy from further up, no, I do not want to keep living this life.

I'm trying to stick to something. I'm not sure exactly what it is. I guess I'm trying to be committed to not operating in a world of threats and demands. I don't want to play that game, and that's game she is playing. There is no way to win. I'm not exactly sure what it is that she wants me to do. I guess it's to make some grand gesture and a big apology and beg for forgiveness. I don't think that's something I need to do, but more than that, I simply can't do that when I'm being screamed at, yelled at, called names, told we're done, that she never wants to see me, that meeting me was the worst mistake of her life, that I'm cruel, that I torture her, that I must enjoy it, etc. Nothing genuine or authentic on my part can possibly come from that. And I hear it or read it every single night, for weeks now. She ignores or declines every bridge I try to build. There's one thing I can do, and that's the thing she screams and demands and makes threats about. And I'm not doing that. There is no winning that game.

But she is stubborn and persistent, and it destroys me to see her in so much pain and to feel like I am somehow causing it. I don't think I'm actually responsible for the pain she feels. I don't think I'm torturing her, but that's how she feels, and my resolve to keep doing what I'm doing (or not doing) is weakening. But I'm not participating in a world of threats. That's the thing I'm trying to hold on to.

My alma mater is playing tonight in the Final Four (actually two of them are, but I only really care about one of them) tonight. So I'm going to watch that with some friends. I have a feeling this may be a bad night for my wife. At my T's suggestion, I called the police department and asked about doing a welfare check. They recommended calling the non-emergency number, as that is likely to affect who and how they respond. I have that number in my phone now. Still preparing myself to actually call. One thing all of this has made me see about myself is that I am very good at denying reality, normalizing the abnormal, and minimizing things. Trying to get better at that.  

[boatingwoman]

  you sound healthy in this update. I’m proud of you.

[Cat Familiar]

 you sound healthy in this update. I’m proud of you.

Heartily agree 

[formflier]

  I guess I'm trying to be committed to not operating in a world of threats and demands. I don't want to play that game, and that's game she is playing. 

I used to live in this world.  Now..if there is a threat...the world stops for that "issue" and I walk away.  My wife almost never threatens anymore.   A much...much better life for me, and frankly for her as well.

You are on the right path..keep it up.

When is the next visit from your parents/family?  I would suggest sooner the better, and give your wife choices...control over more of the activities this time.

FF

[stolencrumbs]

I don't know that I *feel* healthy, but I'll take y'all's word for it.

So yesterday afternoon, after what was a bad Saturday night for her, my wife sent me a text apologizing for how she has behaved the past few weeks and asked me to go for a walk with her. We walked, went to eat, and hung out for a bit after that. It was good, and the first semblance of normal in a very long time. That's the good, I guess.

The bad is that the thing she apparently wanted to say to me, and she said it nicely but seriously, is that I need to do a better job of managing her "crazy." That what I'm doing isn't working. It was a fairly lighthearted conversation, and at one point I actually said "so it's my job to manage your crazy (that was her word)," to which she said "yes, that is your job." Sigh.

I don't know how long the more normal will last (history suggests not long), but this is the phase of things I'm really bad at. I've gotten better, I think, at not caretaking when she is very upset and going off the rails. I'm available, but not available for being yelled at and threatened. But when she feels better, I definitely feel like I need to do whatever I can to keep her from feeling bad. It's maybe more subtle, but it's still me reacting to her emotions and taking responsibility for them, and basing my decisions on how I think something will make her feel.

So, for instance, tonight is the night I usually play trivia at the local brewery. I'd like to do that. But I'm pretty sure that if my wife is still in a relatively good mood, my playing trivia instead of doing something with her will upset her. And then I'm back in threatville.   

[formflier]

Did she say she would "comply" with your management and decisions?

You could use this to your advantage if she goes along with it, although I doubt she would.

FF

[stolencrumbs]

Did she say she would "comply" with your management and decisions?

You could use this to your advantage if she goes along with it, although I doubt she would.

FF

Yeah, giant no on that. I guess it wasn’t explicit, but pretty clear that she’s the CEO of this organization and I’m to carry out her management decisions.

[formflier]

So...what specifically does she want you to do differently?

FF

[I Am Redeemed]

So... basically she wants you to be the stable rock that handles her crazy and simultaneously maintains your own sanity, without burning out, and then she has executive decision making authority on whether or not you are sufficiently accomplishing the impossible task of making her internal discomfort vanish... does that sum it up?

[babyducks]

Can I ask for a little more information?

When she confirmed that yes it's your job to manage her crazy how did you reply?    Did you feel comfortable continuing the conversation? 

Did she walk away from that exchange assuming you are in agreement?

How do you feel about her statement?    How do you feel about the role she is expecting of you?

[stolencrumbs]

Can I ask for a little more information?

When she confirmed that yes it's your job to manage her crazy how did you reply?    Did you feel comfortable continuing the conversation? 

Did she walk away from that exchange assuming you are in agreement?

How do you feel about her statement? How do you feel about the role she is expecting of you?

I think I said "I'm not sure what that means." To ff's question, she did not give any specifics. She said "don't be mean." A bit later I asked if we could maybe think about tomorrow (today) and talk about what would make for a good day. She did not really respond to that, and the conversation was dropped until I left, when she said again that I needed to "be nice."

I don't think there was any agreement about anything. I don't know what we could've possibly agreed to.

I feel like her comment is pretty predictable, and consistent with how she looks at things. She recognizes that she is unable to control her emotions, and so she wants me to do it. That's not a role I want. I don't think she is able to control herself at this point, but the solution seems to for her to get help with better controlling her emotions. I'm all in with helping her help herself. I'm not on board with offloading all of that onto me.

[formflier]

I don't think there was any agreement about anything. 

Not to pick at you...but to clarify a really important point.  Knowing her as you do, do you think SHE believed there was an agreement with her statement.

You answered "we". 

Is there any chance you can do some he said she said around the comments we are all focusing on.

FF

[stolencrumbs]

Not to pick at you...but to clarify a really important point.  Knowing her as you do, do you think SHE believed there was an agreement with her statement.

You answered "we". 

Is there any chance you can do some he said she said around the comments we are all focusing on.

FF

As best as I can remember...

SCw: "I'm going to say this in a lighthearted way, but it's serious, too."
...15 minute diversion into some other unrelated topic...
SC: "You were about to tell me something important."
SCw: "I need to sit down."
...15-20 minute diversion...
SC: "What was it you were going to tell me?"
SCw: "As you may have noticed, I'm kind of crazy."
SC: "Yeah, I picked up on a few things here and there."
SCw: "I need you to do a better job managing crazy."
SC: "I'm not sure what that means."
SCw: "I need you to contain the crazy. I need some padded walls."
SC: "Um, okay, I'm not sure what that means. You need me to manage your crazy?"
SCw: "Yes, that's your job."
SC: "I'm not sure what that means in practice."
SCw: "You're mean. You used to be nicer."
SC: "Well, to be fair, you used to be less crazy."
SCw: "I don't think that's true. I had padded walls."
...some discussion about the past...she had a job, friends, a house and city she liked, etc...
SC: "I agree all of those things are important and make a big difference."
SCw: "I can't just turn crazy off"
SC: "I know."
SCw: "Stop being mean to me. What you're doing doesn't help."
...cue a story about an artist who spent his days in his studio while his wife took care of every aspect of daily life...
SCw: "I think that model would work for me."
SC: "I don't think we're independently wealthy with a seaside cottage in New England."
SCw: "You know what I mean."
SC: "Yeah." Insert description of the kind of life I know she wants.
SCw: "yes, I want that."
SC: "how do you think we get there?"
SCw: "stop being mean to me."
SC: "maybe we can start with tomorrow. What do you want to tomorrow to look like?"
...pause...some diversion...let the dogs out...end of conversation...

[GaGrl]

Except that, bottom line...

You are not responsible for her emotions.

You cannot control her reactions, her emotions, her behavior in response to her emotions.

When she is triggered and has an episode, you do not have the power to change her reactions and resulting behavior.

What she means by "don't be mean" is for you to do everything you can to avoid triggering her.  In other words, walk on eggshells.

You are going to need to revisit this conversation to make sure she doesn't think you have agreed to something that you cannot fulfill and still be a healthy person with a good life. And to clarify what you can and can't do. And what you will or won't do.

She is very low-functioning, and she seems to be realizing this now.

[formflier]

There is a certain level of clarity on her part that she is trying to communicate.

You should thank her for the conversation and ask her to listen to you as well.

FF

[stolencrumbs]

There is a certain level of clarity on her part that she is trying to communicate.

You should thank her for the conversation and ask her to listen to you as well.

FF

I don't know what I'd be asking her to listen to. I don't know what to say to her.

[babyducks]

that's quite the interesting conversation you had SC.   thanks for posting it.   I am wondering if you removed the pronouns around these two sentences or is this actually how she said them:

SCw: "I need you to do a better job managing crazy."

SCw: "I need you to contain the crazy. I need some padded walls."

words are very very important to a person who is on the BPD spectrum.     what is said, exactly,  and how it's said has layers of meaning.     I know my experience was I needed to use 5 times the amount of words I  typically used when I tried to convey something to my Ex.    the level of detail, the nuance, it all had meaning to my Ex.   As sensitive as she was to everything, I really needed and found benefit in the communication skills typically discussed on the staying / recovering board.  I needed more than my A game.  I needed my AAA game.

I find myself on the exact same page as Gagrl with this: 

You are going to need to revisit this conversation to make sure she doesn't think you have agreed to something that you cannot fulfill and still be a healthy person with a good life. And to clarify what you can and can't do. And what you will or won't do.

when you say you 'don't know what to say to her', do you mean you don't know what it is you want/feel or you don't know those aforementioned communication skills and how to express what you want/feel?

she opened the door here.   she is moving towards you and open to discussing the 'crazy' in her life.  do you want to step through that door?    which direction would you think is the best way to go?     

[formflier]

I don't know what I'd be asking her to listen to. I don't know what to say to her.

.


Tell her that.

Also tell her that you aren't going to manage her crazy, but you will "be there for her."  You can support her.  (please don't use these exact words...this is "us" talking here)

However...honesty is called for here.  Clarity. 

How many times before has a similar conversation ever happened.  This seems to be a big deal...and big conversation.

FF

[stolencrumbs]

Ducks, those were her words. Pronouns were absent.

I guess I mean the former. I don’t know what I actually want to communicate to her. And there is usually an exceptionally small window for doing anything.

Ff, it’s not that unusual that she will acknowledge her “crazy.” Agree that it could be an important conversation, but also very possible that she goes off the deep end before there is any conversation.

I asked to see her tonight. She responded by telling me she was very frustrated, but not mad at me. That doesn’t bode well for a conversation.

[empath]

There are people whose job it is to manage other people's crazy...  

It sounds like she is aware that she needs help with her crazy. I've found it helpful just to use what they describe as the problem and guide toward more appropriate help.

[babyducks]

what I found interesting SC is how she is managing her emotions throughout your conversation.     those 15/20 minute diversions?    allows her emotions to cool.   the lack of pronouns?   they distance her from the shame of what she is about to say.   there are a lot of ways to read into what she said to you.

I asked to see her tonight. She responded by telling me she was very frustrated, but not mad at me. That doesn’t bode well for a conversation.

She made herself emotionally naked in a conversation with you.    She asked for help, in a round about and generic way.     you responded with I'm not sure,  I'm not sure, and what do you want to try tomorrow.     She's pushing you to be an emotional leader.    You can be (if you want to) a healthy emotional leader.    I can understand her frustration.     Can you see it as well?

[stolencrumbs]

what I found interesting SC is how she is managing her emotions throughout your conversation.     those 15/20 minute diversions?    allows her emotions to cool.   the lack of pronouns?   they distance her from the shame of what she is about to say.   there are a lot of ways to read into what she said to you.

She made herself emotionally naked in a conversation with you.    She asked for help, in a round about and generic way.     you responded with I'm not sure,  I'm not sure, and what do you want to try tomorrow.     She's pushing you to be an emotional leader.    You can be (if you want to) a healthy emotional leader.    I can understand her frustration.     Can you see it as well?

Yes, I can and do understand her frustration. I am much less clear about what I should do or say.

[boatingwoman]

You could say you would like to help her find someone to talk with whose job it is to help her manage her crazy. You are unable to manage her crazy because that is not a real thing.

[babyducks]

I am much less clear about what I should do or say.

What do you think is behind your lack of clarity?    Can you share what's going on there?

[PeteWitsend]

It's extremely disorienting for the NON to have the pwBPD dysregulating one moment, and then "sincerely" asking  them to help them manage their emotions the next.

I wouldn't blame, or judge anyone for failing to step up to the plate and respond appropriately to such a question, especially since: 1) the behavior of the PWBPD is geared toward confusing and disorienting others, and creating chaos and indecision... "walking on eggshells" being a metaphor we're all probably familiar with  , and 2) it's likely the PWBPD is not going to remember this conversation in a positive light, regardless of the NON's response.  Instead they'll pick apart everything he/she said (and even his/her non-verbal cues), maybe even lying about what was said or left un-said, and use it to blame the NON again in the future for their next outburst.

[stolencrumbs]

Well, we’re off the rails again. I don’t have time to think about anything or respond thoughtfully and deliberately.

[boatingwoman]

It took me a while to think about what she said and what it really means.

My interpretation is that she was informing OP that everything that goes wrong has been and will forever be his fault, and any bad behavior by her is also his fault for not controlling her emotions.

It flat out doesn’t make sense, and it shows the depth of her sickness. It’s magical thinking and is not rooted in reality.

She was also giving him notice that she is throwing him a bone by letting him know how much he is screwing up and that it’s his job to fix it (her message all along).

And now she is in the throws of BPD again likely because OP did something wrong again and it’s all his fault again and he is messing up again by not fixing it correctly again.

They suck you dry. It’s the nature of the disease.  It’s almost like they are sucking you dry in an attempt to patch themselves up with parts of you.  Instead, it causes so much chaos, drama and turmoil.

It’s like trying to live inside a never ending tornado.

[Cat Familiar]

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